From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat May 24 01:47:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA11384 for ; Sat, 24 May 1997 01:47:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA16976 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 24 May 1997 01:12:22 -0500 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 01:12:22 -0500 Message-Id: <199705240612.BAA16976@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #181 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, May 24 1997 Volume 01 : Number 181 In this digest: IN> Dark Malakim IN> Hebrew grammar Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Questions Re: IN> Redemption for Lilim? Re: IN> Geasa and Need question Re: IN> Hebrew grammar Re: IN> Geasa and Need question IN> "Bongs"... [none] [none] Re: IN> Redemption for Lilim? Re: IN> Geasa and Need question Re: IN> Hebrew grammar Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Questions IN> Re: your mail IN> Re: Numinous Corpus query IN> Re: Interventions and character points Re: IN> Geasa and Need question IN> IN Space IN> additional Archangels Short Notes IN> Djinn and the creation of man and the rebellion IN> Animal Vessel Question IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... IN> Celestial combat in the corporeal realm. RE: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 07:40:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: IN> Dark Malakim > >Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 00:00:58 -0600 (MDT) >From: Kingsley Lintz >Subject: Re: IN> Redemption for Lilim? {Hack! Slash!} > Speaking of grey types...is it just me, or is the real reason >Malakim don't fall just because they don't have to change sides for it? > >------------------------------ Well, I can see at least one other reason why Malakim don't fall. Taking the example of Bright Lilim, a Dark Malakim would remain a Malakim, and still have to abide by the Oaths he took as an Angel. And most eminently troublesome among those are the two oaths all Malakim take, which seem to be hardwired into them, "No Retreat, No Surrender" and "Thou shalt not suffer a Demon to live." A Dark Malakim would thus rack up dissonance at an incredible rate, as he's probably suffering himself to live, and surrendering to the Forces of Evil. Disonnance leads to Discord, and the Dark Malakim probably had a decent amount of that before he decided to fall. Unless the Demon Prince he starts working for can reattune him to sidestep those oaths, which is probably extremely difficult, judging from how many Fallen Malakim there are, It would meean that a Dark Malakim swiftly becomes one of the most pitiful creatures known to Celestial. A walking bag of Discord, of rapidly increasing uselessness to everyone. Well, those are my two bits of Essence. Comments, anyone? ================ http://www.io.com/~beholder ======================== "Ph'Nglur mglwun'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl Michelob." ===================================================================== <"}><_________ ___ _________ ___ ___ ___ |"In the Liquor / ______/| / /| / _____/| / /| / /| / /| | Store at / /|_____|// / // /_____|// /_/_/ / // / / |R'lyeh, young / ____/| / / //_____ /| / _____ / //__/ / |Cthulhu lies / /|___|/ / / /_|____/ / // /|__/ / /_|__|/ |about his age." /__/ / /__/ //_______/ //__/ / /__/ //__/| |===Nana Yaw===== |__|/<"}}}><|__|/ |_______|/ |__|/ |__|/ |__|/ |"The Fish" Ofori ===================================================================== "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." Email: nofori@pop3.utoledo.edu ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 09:17:43 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Hebrew grammar Okay, I know this is a nit, but I feel compelled to say it: -- Begin Nit -- In this morning's IN mail, I've already seen references to "A lilim," "A sheddim," and "A seraphim." The "-im" ending is the Hebrew PLURAL, just like the "-s" ending in English. One member of the seraphim is a "seraph." One member of the lilim or the sheddim is a lil or a shed, but that sounds funny in English, so, in the IN book, one of the sheddim is a "sheddite," (which is just Hebrew for "demon," my father tells me) and I recommend one of the lilim be a "lilite" by analogy. The "-ite" ending, by the way, is Greek, but we're used to it from things like "Israelite," so it sounds kind of Biblical. -- End Nit -- Thank you. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:24:30 -0400 (EDT) From: "Michael C. Nutt" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Questions >Should the most *pressing* Need appear on any successful invocation >of the Lilim resonance, in serious situations like that? Should >it appear "alone," as the "only" Need available at that time? Or >would it appear along with the other, "usual" Need that would have >been sensed under normal circumstances? > >What level of Need is "SAVE MY LIFE"? It probably won't take long, >does that make it a Geas/1? But it's kinda important and risky >and very urgent, so is it a Geas/6? Geas equal to corporeal forces? >Geas equal to total forces? Just an idea here, but I think I'd call the level of the Favor equal to the check digit of the Perception roll, probably with a modifier. This might represent just how tight the Lilim in question was able to "get her hooks into" the person in question, perhaps. Sort of like the way *other* celestials can punt on *their* resonance rolls, and not get as strong a connection. True, the person in question *might* have another, even *more* pressing Need that she could sense... "I'll get the secret microfilm to your station chief at the Embassy, don't worry." Collecting a Geas on a dead human is pretty pointless, though, so saving his life could become an important part of the deal. >If Jane Lilim *fails* her Perception roll, but saves his life >anyway, does she have no ability to ask a Favor in return at all? >Is it a Geas vs. straight Will (no minuses)? Would she do better >to just ask a favor (little "f") and leave Geasa out of it totally? As above, I'd say that failing the Perception roll means she's not been able to influence the Symphony in such a way as to completely Geas the person. If he *doesn't* consider himself to be in her debt, he's a sleazeball, though. >What if it's Joe Celestial who needs a rescue? Can she get a >"Thanks, I owe you one" out of him and *then* reveal that she's >a Lilim? Would that acknowledgement of Debt put a Geas onto Joe >Celestial? For what level? Level of Vessel if only vessel-death? >Level of Forces if he had been in danger of being Force-stripped >(bailed out while being pounded in celestial combat, say)? A very honorable Celestial might willingly *accept* a Geas in such a situation, as a way of discharging the Debt, but they might also put qualifiers onto it, thus increasing the level of the Geas. "Nothing that causes me dissonance or goes directly against my superior" certainly seems like a good qualifier, and I'd rule it as imposing an extra level of Geas. If she punted the Perception roll earlier, though, she's just SOL on *forcing* a Geas onto him, though, I'd say. About a Malakim deciding to take the dissonance and just trying to wax the Lilim instead... remember, the Geas will outlast the lifespan of the Lilim's vessel. He'd have to completely disassemble her component Forces instead, which is a *much* more difficult task, Me, I'd just throw a lot of Essence into the "Screw you, I'm welching on the Geas" roll instead, and warn the Lilim that any further attempts to collect on it are bound to get her a big dose of Trauma. Hopefully, she'll take the hint and give it up... perhaps she'd be willing to accept a payment of Essence in order to cancel the Geas? (Gads... I'm getting a vision of monthly payments here, kind of like a car note.) Malakim might not consider getting rid of such an "involuntary" Geas as dishonorable, either, since the Geas was obtained under duress. If a Malakite tried to weasel out of a Geas he'd *voluntarily* accepted, even one with the qualifiers mentioned above, he's in for a world of hurt, though. Michael Cross-country skiing is great, if you live in a small country. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 97 11:48 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Redemption for Lilim? >aaahhhh, but MICHAEL doesn't care for the "hyena of Heaven", so there >may be help for a Bright Lilim in unexpected places, Somehow I can't see Michael getting interested in Lilim -- they're not particularly combat-oriented, so they're a bit outside his scope, I'd think. He might get involved if Dominic already was, just to oppose Dominic. But I'd think that a Lilim looking for Redemption might have better choices of Archangel than Michael. He and his servitors seem more likely to go "Hmmm... demon. ". He's probably a better choice than Laurence, though. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 97 11:42 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Geasa and Need question >If Jane Lilim *fails* her Perception roll, but saves his life >anyway, does she have no ability to ask a Favor in return at all? >Is it a Geas vs. straight Will (no minuses)? Would she do better >to just ask a favor (little "f") and leave Geasa out of it totally? I would say that since the resonance wasn't used successfully, the Lilim is on her own in this case. I.e., she has no way to enforce a Geas, possibly unless the receiver offers to take one. (Maybe all celestials have the ability to take binding oaths?) >What if it's Joe Celestial who needs a rescue? Can she get a >"Thanks, I owe you one" out of him and *then* reveal that she's >a Lilim? Would that acknowledgement of Debt put a Geas onto Joe >Celestial? If she used her Perception on him, it doesn't matter whether he knows she's a Lilim or not. I don't think "I own you one" necessarily constitutes a waiver of the Will roll, though. In some sense, that's really what the Geas level resistance penalty seems to simulate -- the level of indebtedness the receiver of the favor feels. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:41:24 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Hebrew grammar On Fri, 23 May 1997, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > One member of the seraphim is a "seraph." One member of the > lilim or the sheddim is a lil or a shed, but that sounds funny > in English, so, in the IN book, one of the sheddim is a "sheddite," > (which is just Hebrew for "demon," my father tells me) and I > recommend one of the lilim be a "lilite" by analogy. The "-ite" > ending, by the way, is Greek, but we're used to it from things > like "Israelite," so it sounds kind of Biblical. I haven't studied Hebrew in close to 15 years, but I "THINK" that the sigular of Lilim, could be Lila. Don't hold me to that, but it sounds better to me then Lil, or Lilite. Shadowcat ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 97 11:59 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Geasa and Need question >Can a lilm create a Need and then fullfull it to create a succesful geas? I'd say yes. The Lilim of Haagenti get to do something like this with their Band attunement. Andrealphus' Lilim probably have a field day with the Seduction skill, not to mention the Dark Desire attunement.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:46:56 +0100 () From: "David.Evans" Subject: IN> "Bongs"... Thany wrote that:- > > > On Tue, 20 May 1997, Peter Frederick wrote: [much snippage] > > Besides possibly eventually ticking off the Big D should any penalty be made > > against a Character who bangs it off whenever they think they aren't going > > to need the Essence? > I don't think so. What probably *will* irritate Dom is the fact that you blew 7 Essence in one go, which is a fair amount of disturbance (I can't remember off-hand whether the action of the sword hitting it's judged victim causes disturbance or not) and could, possibly, attract the attention of Diabolicals in the vicinity. An even more salutary lesson for the Angel who blows 7 Essence every time he has it to hand and has the inclination is when he or she suddenly finds themselves up against a Demon soon afterwards, and suddenly realises that perhaps there less essence-expenditure heavy ways of dispensing Justice to those deserving of it. I know in the campaign I ran that when the party of Angels were pleased with their work only to find half-a-dozen demons on their doorstep investigating all the noise they'd generated earlier on (and were stoopid enough to stay in the area of afterwards). > Well, you will have brought ultimate retribution upon someone who deserved it, > but Dominic will undoubtedly give you a stern talking to the next time you > meet. Repeat offenders should probably be smacked with some Discord or > another. > Heh. Or worse... > > How long does Dominic allow for his approximately once a week visit to each > > of his servitors on Earth? > > You could ask the same question of Santa Claus. ;) > I just chalk it up to the Archangels' knowledge of things beyond our > limited capabilities, etc. Cheesy, maybe, but I can't see another > explanation... > More or less my opinion; a few minutes at the most, even if he had to lengthen his visit to, ahem, "discipline" one his Servitors. > > How long is it going to take Demons in the City to track you down if there > > is the "BONG" of Big D appearing every 7 to 10 days? My idea is that Dominic would arrive on the Corporeal plane somewhere out of the way, and make his way to wherever he need to get to from there (by the Celestial Song of Motion, perhaps?) as quickly as possible. I think Dom would then "do the rounds" of all his Servitors in the near viscinity (say, on the same continent). I'm sure AAs and DPs have all sorts of neat tricks up their metaphorical sleeves to avoid the noise they're sure to make shifting planes, if they want to. Not that it'd be Dom's style. He'd simply arrive wherever the hell he liked with sufficient noise to say, "here I am, wanna make something of it?" and cleave the forces asunder of any Demon dumb enough to try. Be seeing you... David. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:12:13 -0400 (EDT) From: gibsonc@nku.edu Subject: [none] do the songs numinous corpous make a disturbance just once or would something like acid make one each time it was used(spit)? jahon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:08:02 -0400 (EDT) From: gibsonc@nku.edu Subject: [none] if a diabolical is almost redeemed, or just trying to become so, which roll gives him divine intervention, and what are the effects? also does anyone one else feel like its too easy for celestial to achieve higher levels, by this i mean gain forces? jahon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 97 12:19 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Redemption for Lilim? >> It seems to me than Lilim are perhaps a little more likely to go for >> voluntary Redemption than the average demon -- their intrinsic nature > There's a good case for them being less likely, too, though; >primarily, on the grounds that they have that option the others don't. >If, say, a Balseraph decides to go, he has two real choices; Renegade, and >be on the run from everyone, or try for Redemption and at least have some >people on his side. A Lilim, in theory, can just work off her debts and >go Free... Perhaps, though a true Free Lilim still isn't very free -- she has to be actively evil and doing her bit for the War effort, or Asmodeus will be on her tail. I believe Asmodeus keeps special track of unbound Lilim -- since they haven't sworn service to a Prince, their commitment to the cause must be suspect.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 18:46:21 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Geasa and Need question On Thu, 22 May 1997 17:58:41 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >Okay, hypothetical question here: > >You've got Joe Mundane (this guy has the Discord of Unluckiness!) >here, being held hostage with a gun to his head. Jane Lilim looks >him in the eyes and makes her Perception roll to uncover a Need. ... >What level of Need is "SAVE MY LIFE"? It probably won't take long, >does that make it a Geas/1? But it's kinda important and risky >and very urgent, so is it a Geas/6? Geas equal to corporeal forces? >Geas equal to total forces? The difficulty is the difficulty to the needer, not to the Lilim. (Page 149, left column, just under the example.) It may be trivial for the Lilim, but that doesn't reduce the Geas level. Let's see: creating a new life takes nine months; that's right between a Geas/5 and a Geas/6. :) >If Jane Lilim *fails* her Perception roll, but saves his life >anyway, does she have no ability to ask a Favor in return at all? >Is it a Geas vs. straight Will (no minuses)? Would she do better >to just ask a favor (little "f") and leave Geasa out of it totally? I'd be tempted to think that noticing that the person needs their life saved should be modified by the GM to be pretty much an automatic success in such an obvious case, but the check digit could still be used to gage how much the lilim will be able to lower Will when the Geas is called in. >What if it's Joe Celestial who needs a rescue? Can she get a >"Thanks, I owe you one" out of him and *then* reveal that she's >a Lilim? Would that acknowledgement of Debt put a Geas onto Joe >Celestial? I don't see any place that the needer's consent is needed or advantageous. The elements needed seem to be only the perception and fulfillment of the need. Of course, activating the Geas requires overcoming the Will of the target. Am I missing something? > For what level? Level of Vessel if only vessel-death? >Level of Forces if he had been in danger of being Force-stripped >(bailed out while being pounded in celestial combat, say)? I think the threat of being soul-dead should be as strong a Need as a human's Need to stay alive. I'd say Geas/6 unless there's some mitigating circumstance: for instance, a person is dying of cancer and will only live a month even if saved--maybe saving his life should only be a Geas/4 (one month); even for a Celestial who will gain dissonnance from being saved by the Lilim, it's still such an important favor, I'd think Geas/5 would be the minimum. Merely preserving a Vessel perhaps should correspond to the time the celestial would spend in trauma, plus the time to earn the experience points to buy a new vessel. Still, even saving someone who has a spare body might be worth a Geas/4 or /5, reflecting the month or six it would take to earn points for a comparable new Vessel (worth 3-18 points, plus up to 6 or minus up to 4 points for Charisma and plus up to 18 points for Role and Status). Even if he's going to spend a week or two in trauma, it's often not much compared to the cost of the new Vessel, so I'm not sure Malakim should get much advantage here. Saving a Kyrio's or a Shedite's host should probably be no more than a Geas/3, reflecting the effort of earning 10 points of essence to burn the dissonance for losing a host. The above brings up an interesting point: A Vessel/1 costs 3 points, but you can get -4 points for Charisma, leaving a point left over to spend on a role. So, a Vessel/1 (3 points) with -2 Charisma (-4 points) and a Role/2 with Status/1 (1 point) ends up being free. A Malakite or someone with a spare Vessel about to lose such a zero point Vessel might be down at the Geas/1 level, and even someone who is going to be traumatized would be down to Geas/3, I'd think. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:44:32 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Hebrew grammar At 9:17 AM -0500 5/23/97, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Okay, I know this is a nit, but I feel compelled to say it: > > -- Begin Nit -- > >In this morning's IN mail, I've already seen references to >"A lilim," "A sheddim," and "A seraphim." The "-im" ending >is the Hebrew PLURAL, just like the "-s" ending in English. In The Book, it's Shedim/Shedite, Seraphim/Seraph, and Lilim/Lilim. This is obviously like mouse/mice, house/houses, and grouse/grouse (if that's how you spell the bird's name)... Nothing to get unduely weirded about. (And then there's the *other* version that's easy to fall into -- Elohites, Seraphs, etc.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:42:14 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Questions At 11:24 AM -0400 5/23/97, Michael C. Nutt wrote: [...] >>What if it's Joe Celestial who needs a rescue? Can she get a >>"Thanks, I owe you one" out of him and *then* reveal that she's >>a Lilim? Would that acknowledgement of Debt put a Geas onto Joe >>Celestial? [...] [...] >About a Malakim deciding to take the dissonance and just trying to wax the >Lilim instead... remember, the Geas will outlast the lifespan of the Lilim's >vessel. He'd have to completely disassemble her component Forces instead, >which is a *much* more difficult task, Me, I'd just throw a lot of Essence >into the "Screw you, I'm welching on the Geas" roll instead, and warn the >Lilim that any further attempts to collect on it are bound to get her a big >dose of Trauma. Hopefully, she'll take the hint and give it up... Or hand it over to Mom, perhaps? "Hello, dear, one of my Daughters saved your Malakite hide." >perhaps she'd be willing to accept a payment of Essence in order >to cancel the Geas? (Gads... I'm getting a vision of monthly payments >here, kind of like a car note.) Hee hee hee... I like it. >Malakim might not consider getting rid of such an "involuntary" Geas as >dishonorable, either, since the Geas was obtained under duress. If a >Malakite tried to weasel out of a Geas he'd *voluntarily* accepted, even one >with the qualifiers mentioned above, he's in for a world of hurt, though. It would probably depend on the Malakite, and the Lilim, and the circumstances. A smart Lilim would up the level and allow things like "won't cause me dissonance" to be qualifiers, methinks. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:44:13 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul F. Strack" Subject: IN> Re: your mail On Fri, 23 May 1997 gibsonc@nku.edu wrote: > do the songs numinous corpous make a disturbance just once or would > something like acid make one each time it was used(spit)? The song *activates* the numinous corpus, so the only disturbance from the song is when the corpus comes into being. Of course, damage caused by the corpus will cause additional disturbance, as usual. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:54:17 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Re: Numinous Corpus query At 12:12 PM -0400 5/23/97, gibsonc@nku.edu wrote: >do the songs numinous corpous make a disturbance just once or would >something like acid make one each time it was used(spit)? Just once, though if you *damage* something, that will be a seperate roll, with all the recent disturbance rolled into it... Acid would probably make a disturbance any time it was spat, because it would land on *something* and cause damage. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 17:09:01 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Re: Interventions and character points At 12:08 PM -0400 5/23/97, gibsonc@nku.edu wrote: >if a diabolical is almost redeemed, or just trying to become so, which >roll gives him divine intervention, and what are the effects? 111 will always be Divine Intervention, 666 will always be Diabolica Intervention. In a "gray" case for a PC, figure that a 111 gives a result that best serves the heavenly hosts {or hostesses}, while a 666 gives a result that best serves Lucifer. Which one will be "best" for the poor Renegade stuck in the middle is a good question -- if he's trying to be Redeemed {for valuable cash prizes!}, then 111 will probably be ultimately good for him, and 666 ultimately bad. >also does >anyone one else feel like its too easy for celestial to achieve higher >levels, by this i mean gain forces? 10 character points per force. Only if you're handing out experience points like candy, rather than the 1 or 2 for satisfactory progress, plus 1 or 2 for "exceptional" roleplaying -- and sometimes (often!) not use the points at all, but grant Rites, Songs, or Distinctions instead -- or remove dissonance or Discord. Even if you only use CPs, it ought to take several games to get that many points together, and the player has to save them, not spend them on anything like skills or Songs. Also remember that if a mission *fails*, the Superior may *take away* things!! If you don't want them getting Forces even that quickly (or have this habit of handing out lots of points), then either divert the PCs with the thought of new toys (Resources), or raise the cost for extra Forces, or both. (And, that said, I don't *think* 10 Forces is that bad -- remember, they'll make more noise, too, in some things! Me, I'd buy extra characteristics...) {suggested by K.K., probably... --emccoy} {She just likes having someone else to blame the puns on. --K.K.} - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 17:14:18 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Geasa and Need question At 7:49 PM -0400 5/22/97, Kim Foster wrote: >Along the lines of the other questions posted here. > >Can a lilim create a Need and then fullfull it to create a succesful geas? > >Say..let the air out of someone's tires and then provide them a ride as poor >example. Sure. Just think about what Lilim of Lust can do, too... At 2:32 AM -0500 5/23/97, Donald G Bixler wrote: [Kingsley (?) wrote:] >> It wouldn't necessarily be alone either; there are several Needs >> that would flash through the mind of someone in that situation. "Safe my >> life," "Take care of my daughter," "Fix my will so that brat son-in-law >> doesn't get anything," "avenge me"...The big question on the last being >> whether just offing the current Vessel of her friend who's about to kill >> Joe would count. (Well, okay, the bigger question being how the heck he's >> going to pay her back if it's really avenging.) > > Oooh! Necromancy! Go celestial, grab the soul and slap it into >one of the In Nomine World Order cards (thanks for getting the idea >stuck in my head, ArchBeth! ;'p ) (You're welcome! ) >until it can repay you. Evil thought, >really, and probably quite effective if allowed. Hey, sometimes it could come in handy -- especially if the soul ended up somewhere you had access. Marches or Hell, mostly, but the concept of using a Geas link to somehow communicate with the Upper Heavens...) At 6:46 PM +0000 5/23/97, Walt Mazur wrote: >On Thu, 22 May 1997 17:58:41 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy > wrote: > >>What if it's Joe Celestial who needs a rescue? Can she get a >>"Thanks, I owe you one" out of him and *then* reveal that she's >>a Lilim? Would that acknowledgement of Debt put a Geas onto Joe >>Celestial? > >I don't see any place that the needer's consent is needed or >advantageous. The elements needed seem to be only the perception and >fulfillment of the need. Of course, activating the Geas requires >overcoming the Will of the target. Am I missing something? Just hoping that an unwary acknowledgment would be able to bypass the overcoming of the Will part -- "I owe you one..GLRK! Hey, you're a Lilim!" "Well, yeah, and now I can call the favor in anytime I want. Thanks!" };) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 18:06:23 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> IN Space rogue@ez-net.com (RogueLdr) wrote >Anybody care to think about a really high-force Kyrio of Jean possessing the >Death Star? Considering that Vapula has probably grounded a tether on it does the kyrio really want to play there.. [ after all a single a bomb gives +6 to summon him. ] Seriously on the other hand wandering the Elohim wandering round in the Green Gray encounter suit might suggest caution . If you can understand him that is. Meanwhile Jean finishes programming Deep Thought just to prove that you really don't want to use a computer . they don't tell you anything useful.. " Captain we appear to be approaching a subspace anomaly" Cherub of Janus " Good, just keep throwing the Malakim of Litheroy at it until we know what it does." Ofanim of Jean "Feel your Hate. Good, Now take up your flaming Sword and Strike me down, only then will your journey to the Dark Side be complete" Slightly overconfident Calabim of Malphas Holidaying on the above tether of Vapula "it's life Jim but not as we Know it" Its a Kyriotes Star Ttrek Elohim Prefer Vulcans Mercurians Prefer Kirk Malakim prefer Romulans Ofanim Prefer Voyager Seraphim Prefer the Ships Log Cherubim wear red and die off screen a lot. Kyriotes are the Borg Lilim like Mudd Balseraphs like the Dominion Djinn fancy the Planetkiller Cabalim like the Genesis Device, Photon Torpedos and Disruptors Habbalah like the Dove Shedim Hate Vulcans Impudites are Tribbles And Kirk is a Gregori Battlestar Galactica Has to many Seraphs and not enough Malakim >"It isn't fair! How am I supposed to tell what an Android Needs?" "Androids need to watch Androids, do their jobs and go to Silicon Heaven" - Kryten. crew mechanoid of the Mining Ship Red Dwarf ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 18:06:19 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> additional Archangels Short Notes Along with Micheal and Gabriel one other Archangel is mentioned in the Bible [admitedly in the Duetrocanonical Apocrapha] Raphael [Hebrew for God Heals] is sent to heal and comfort Tobit and get him married off. Raphael is the archtypical Guardian Angel [see the Book of Tobit for details] and the patron of apocthecaries. In the Book of Tobit he also goes head to Head with Asmodeus while staying hidden.Also supposed to be the leader of the Powers. From his behaviour he is a a Cherub whose word is Healing. He is in tradition linked to the Healing pool at Bathesda which along with Lourdes may be on of his Tethers Tradition mentions several others Japhkeil otherwise Jahudiel Leader of the Thrones and the angel said to be responsible for leading the Israelites out of Egypt. Thus the Ofanim whose word is Fast Food. Chamael otherwise Chemuel Leader of the Principalities and angel of gods wrath. The angel who wrestled with Jacob and brought the cup to Jesus at Gethsemane [unless that was Gabriel]. Thus a Malakim [after all who else can keep Mercurians in line] whose word is Strength. Zadkiel [The Righteousness of God] Leader of the Dominations and the angel that stopped Abraham from Killing Issac. Possibly Dominic under a different name. Otherwise the Kyriotates whose name is Righteousness [Literally] Haniel Leader of the Virtues. Does a senior Malakim need more. Since Lawrence is Head of the Host on Earh and Micheal is Lord of those who fight alone. Haniel is heavily outshadowed by mnore senior Malakim. Possibly Malakim whose word is patience. Jophiel [The Beauty of God] Leader of the Cherubim. The angel who chased Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden. He gards the Gate still and is the patron of those who seek out truth. Possibly Litheroy otherwise the Cherub whose word is Enquiry or mavbe Mirror. The Leader of The Seraphim used to be Uriel [God is my Light] but we know what happened to him The Collectable Card Game Heresy: Kingdom Come has a large number more Angels and Demons trying to rebuild the world computer grid to enable them to access Heaven. Adam Dahak@Compuserve.Com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 18:06:16 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Djinn and the creation of man and the rebellion Message text written by MIME:in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Seraphim, Cherubim and Ofanim are not angels. The celestial hierarchy consists of three triads (according to sixth century theologians). The first triad consists of Seraphim, Cherubim and Ophanim. Angels of the first triad are never seen on Earth. The second triad consists of Dominions, Virtues and Powers (which also link into an IN choir, I believe). Second triad are ministering angels who guard Heaven and Earth. The third triad are the Principalities, Archangels and Angels, and have ministry of Earth.< The list of ranks of angels I was taught In Nomine Page 92 Cherubim Cherubim Seraphim Seraphim Powers Elohim Dominions Kyriotes Thrones Ofanim Virtues Malakim Principalities no direct match Archangels Superiors Angels Servants Which covers all seven except the Mercurians, who may be principalities and of course, In Nomine uses the last two terms as general catch alls for power levels of the others. And People use Angel to refer to the entire superlunar Heavenly host. On Djinn again Paraphrase from the Book of the Djinn in the Koran [Qu'ran] "I have been inspired that there listened a company of the Djinn, and they said,'"And, verily, of us are some who are Muslims, and of us some are trespassers; but those of us who are Muslims they strive after right direction; and as for the trespassers they are fuel for hell."'." the point was more that the Koran [otherwise Qu'ran] was dictated by Gabriel [p118 IN and I think Moslem tradition] and says Djinn were created before the fall and are thus something other than fallen cherubim who really ought to be called something other than djinn: Hell hounds, Borg, Gabble Ratchets, Meifu-no-junsa. Of those Hell hound or a synonim fits best as its impossible to escape from on once ithas attuned to you and they like animal forms when celestial. As for genies [Djinn in the Koran] they appear to be neutrals who were suprised by the fall and at least pro God before the fall. The story of Solomon's Temple seems to imply they have some willingness to work for the glorification of God. As far as the bit about Iblis is concerned I was under the impression that Iblis, Satan and Shaitan are other names for Lucifer Morningstar, The head villain and First of the Fallen Angels. If what I remember about him is correct he was head of the Heavenly Hosts before the fall which might imply he is the only fallen Malakim on record. Words Light before the fall? and Rebellion. The text from the Chapter of El 'Hagr is the only place I can find a mention of a reason for the fall and since we have to assume Gabriel is not pulling a fast one, this is supposed to be what she and Yves want humanity to believe. Whether or not that is the underlying reason... Similarly I assume that Adoni, YHWH, Yahweh and Allah all refer to God,The All loving, The Mysterious, The Groucho Marx impersonator and Lord of Heaven. Adam Dahak@Compuserve.Com From The Dictionary of Christian Lore and Legend "Angels [from the Greek Angelos, 'Messenger' translating the Hebrew Malah] Gabriel watches over childbirth and since 1921 is the patron of television and telecomunications, with micheal he gUards church doors." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 23:48:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "Michael C. Nutt" Subject: IN> Animal Vessel Question Question about animal vessels... say, for instance, an angel with 2 Corporeal Forces takes a cat vessel. she's got a Strength of 2, and an Agility of 6... this would give a regular cat, as described on p. 191, the ability to run 60 yards in a 5 second round! That's *moving on*... where should the line be drawn for ground speeds? Also, would an animal vessel get some of the skills listed under the animal description? Doesn't really make sense to *not* give a cat Climbing, for instance... and will those skills combine with the celestial's current skills, or replace them entirely? Michael There are two secrets to success: 1. Never tell everything you know. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 23:48:34 -0400 (EDT) From: "Michael C. Nutt" Subject: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... Pondering some tactics and things for the Fleshless today, and I came up with a Definite Problem. The Problem : Can Kyriotates/Shedim possess the vessels of celestials? OK, sure, the first, instinctive answer is "Sure they can", but let's look a little more closely at the problem. Under the description of Shedim, it says they "manifest by possessing the bodies of living humans". Says nothing about animals, celestials, or anything else. Just humans. Under the description of Kyriotates, it says "... they must borrow the bodies of other living beings to make their mark on reality." Different from the Shedite resonance, yes, but the Kyrios can also control *multiple* hosts, while it's already been established that Shedites cannot, so the fact that a difference exists doesn't seem crucial. Does a celestial's vessel count as a living being? It doesn't have to eat or sleep, and it doesn't even age. While it *can* do all of these things, it certainly doesn't *have* to. This would certainly be a neat solution to the problem of "does the host get dissonance for the actions taken while being ridden by a Shedite?" , for instance. Which brings me to my *second* question... let's assume that the decision above is that a Kyrio/Shedite *can* possess a celestial's vessel. I think it's pretty clear that (for example) a Kyriotate wouldn't get dissonance if one of his hosts shoots and kills a demon.. If it's OK for him to kill a demon *that* way, then why can't he just take over the demon, and then make him dive under a bus, for instance? Would he get dissonance for taking over a demon, walking him into a police precinct house, whipping out a gun, and intentionally missing with every shot he fires, if he abandons the "host" *before* the cops present turn him into a bullet-riddled corpse? True, it's only going to be pretty junior demons that fall for that sort of thing, since demons generally have a high Will, but it would still be lots of fun . Michael There are two secrets to success: 1. Never tell everything you know. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 00:26:47 -0500 From: "Enrique J. Castellanos" Subject: IN> Celestial combat in the corporeal realm. In the book it states that celestial combat can take place in any of the realms, but in the corporeal realm an individual is "shielded" by their vessel? What is the mechanic for this. I am tempted to use the target's Strength as a protective measure to absorb damage. Or is the target simply unaffected? If so, celestial combat doesn't affect mortals. Is this correct. Thank you for your time, Enrique Castellanos ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 May 97 05:40:06 UT From: "Kurt White" Subject: RE: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... >The Problem : Can Kyriotates/Shedim possess the vessels of celestials? >OK, >sure, the first, instinctive answer is "Sure they can", but let's look a >little more closely at the problem. >Under the description of Shedim, it says they "manifest by possessing the >bodies of living humans". Says nothing about animals, celestials, or >anything else. Just humans. IMO, when it says the "bodies of living humans", it says nothing about celestials, because they cannot be possessed. I don't think that a celestial's vessel is human, so that seems to rule them out. That's what I think, anyway. - -Kurt "Ninety percent of everything is crap" - Theodore Sturgeon "Ninety nine percent of the Internet is crap" - Me ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #181 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.