From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon May 26 17:34:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA23780 for ; Mon, 26 May 1997 17:34:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA18531 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 26 May 1997 17:08:49 -0500 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:08:49 -0500 Message-Id: <199705262208.RAA18531@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #183 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, May 26 1997 Volume 01 : Number 183 In this digest: IN> Plurals IN> Animal Vessel Question IN> Celestial combat in the corporeal realm. [none] Re: IN> Redemption for Lilim? Re: IN> Fixing Flight Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Questions Re: IN> Celestial combat in the corporeal realm. Re: IN> Hebrew grammar [none] Re: IN> Geasa and Need question Re: IN> Animal Vessel Question IN> IN quotes IN> Too much intervention? Re: IN> Too much intervention? Re: IN> Gabriel question Re: IN> Redemption for Lilim? IN> celestial breeding Re: IN> Too much intervention? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 May 97 12:53:04 EDT From: Moriah - Steve Jackson Games <73407.515@compuserve.com> Subject: IN> Plurals >Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 09:17:43 -0500 >From: Earl Wajenberg >Subject: IN> Hebrew grammar > >One member of the seraphim is a "seraph." One member of the >lilim or the sheddim is a lil or a shed, but that sounds funny >in English, so, in the IN book, one of the sheddim is a "sheddite," >(which is just Hebrew for "demon," my father tells me) and I >recommend one of the lilim be a "lilite" by analogy. The "-ite" >ending, by the way, is Greek, but we're used to it from things >like "Israelite," so it sounds kind of Biblical. You are 100% correct. However, English is a bastardizing language and it has become part of our (SJ Games') convention that one Lilim is 'a Lilim'. Plural Singular Appropriate, but not SJ Games forms =========== =========== =================================== Seraphim Seraph Cherubim Cherub Ofanim Ofanite Ofan (s.) Elohim Elohite Eloh (s.) Malakim Malakite Malak (s.) Kyriotates Kyriotate Mercurians Mercurian Balseraphs Balseraph Balseraphim (pl.) Djinn Djinn Djinni (s.)* Calabim Calabite Calab (s.) Habbalah Habbalite Habbalim (pl.) Habbal (s.) Lilim Lilim Lil (s.) Lilite (s.) Shedim Shedite Shed (s.) Impudites Impudite You GMs and players may want to use this in order to throw in a character quirk to a (N)PC by having them use one of the non-canonical alternate forms whenever they refer to a certain Section. Peace, Moriah * Yes, the singular is 'djinni' -- we're used to Latinate words which form the plural by using the -i ending (e.g., radius, radii) -- it's Arabic. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:53:27 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Animal Vessel Question Message text written by in_nomine-digest >Also, would an animal vessel get some of the skills listed under the animal description? Doesn't really make sense to *not* give a cat Climbing, for instance... and will those skills combine with the celestial's current skills, or replace them entirely? .< It would make sense that cats can climb but the Kyriotate has no access to the hosts memories [p102] and thus no access to its skills so it depends on wether the kyriotate has learned to climb wether it can do so as a cat. Adam Dahak@Compuserve.Com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:53:22 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Celestial combat in the corporeal realm. Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 00:26:47 -0500 From: "Enrique J. Castellanos" >In the book it states that celestial combat can take place in any of the realms, but in the corporeal realm an individual is "shielded" by their vessel? What is the mechanic for this. I am tempted to use the target's Strength as a protective measure to ! absorb damage. Or is the target simply unaffected? If so, celestial combat doesn't affect mortals. Is this correct.< Celestial Combat can only damage things in Celestial form. Ie Celestials that are not possessing a body or in a vessel. The exceptions are Calabim of Lust can do celestial Damage to people in physical form but not enough to destroy a force [INp159]. Thus humans cannont lose a force to celestial combat and as long as you stay in your vessel you are safe.from this. Of course avoiding having your body killed so you can be mugged by the waiting celestial can be a pain at times. Adam Dahak@Compuserve.Com "There is a tendancy to declare that there is more backsliding around than at the national toboggan championships, that heresy must be torn out rout and branch, and even arm and leg and eye and tongue, and that it's time to wipe the slate clean. Blood is generally considered very efficient for this purpose." - Small Gods. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:36:20 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: [none] On May 23, 12:12pm, gibsonc@nku.edu wrote: > Subject: > do the songs numinous corpous make a disturbance just once or would > something like acid make one each time it was used(spit)? Once for simply doing the Song and then more everytime something in the Symphony was damaged, ala the normal disturbance rules. Best stick to using it on Celestials if you want to avoid noise. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:26:19 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Redemption for Lilim? On May 22, 10:15pm, Nathaniel P Eliot wrote: > I have a question in the other direction: it seems that Kyriotates > have a really long way to Fall. Is there anything a Kyriotate can be > other than a Shedim, who seem the psychotic to every other demon's > personality problem? Nope. Kyriotates become Shedim, officially. Remember that even _Kyriotates_ aren't considered exactly normal and rational. Now twist that kind of personality and force to exist in only ONE vessel at a time. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:14:55 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Fixing Flight On May 22, 5:51pm, MR DON W BLAGG wrote: > Subject: IN> Fixing Flight > In our local game I am going to change the rules for flight. As I > see it there are four options and I am interested in experienced > player's input. So feel free to vote for the option you like the > most or add your own. > 1) Keep the rules as is. > 2) Allow a character to fly at the winged creature speed given in > the book as 10 x AGI. > 3) Set the flying speed at 2 x AGI x Level of the Song. > 4) Allow characters to fly at double their ground speed (This one > was generously suggested by Scott Turnbull). >From the FAQ ============ What is your speed when you use Numious Corpus:Wings? The speed on p. 82 seems very slow. Use the rules on p. 65, so the speed for Winged movement is [Agility X 10] yards per round. This makes top speed around 50 mph and average speed at 25 mph. Decent for a non-machine powered creature, but perhaps too slow for some (as well as not lasting long enough!). You can vary your local campaign quite a bit depending on how much mobility you want the characters to have. A good option might be to multiply the speed/duration by the amount of essence put into the song. YMMV. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:33:43 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Questions > A very honorable Celestial might willingly *accept* a Geas in such a > situation, as a way of discharging the Debt, but they might also put > qualifiers onto it, thus increasing the level of the Geas. "Nothing that > causes me dissonance or goes directly against my superior" certainly seems > like a good qualifier, and I'd rule it as imposing an extra level of Geas. > If she punted the Perception roll earlier, though, she's just SOL on > *forcing* a Geas onto him, though, I'd say. I'm not sure if 'qualified' Geasa even exist. This removes the delicious sense of _not knowing_ what you will be asked to do and thereby cheapens the drama that a Lilim (or anyone) might be drawn in to by conflicting responsibilities. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:49:17 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Celestial combat in the corporeal realm. On May 24, 12:26am, Enrique J. Castellanos wrote: > Subject: IN> Celestial combat in the corporeal realm. > In the book it states that celestial combat can take place in any of the realms, but in the corporeal realm an individual is "shielded" by their vessel? What is the mechanic for this. I am tempted to use the target's Strength as a protective measure to absorb damage. Or is the target simply unaffected? If so, celestial combat doesn't affect mortals. Is this correct. Except under special circumstances, a Celestial in a Corporeal vessel can't have their Soul Hits damaged. They are 'shielded' from having the core of their being destroyed, in other words. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:30:00 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Hebrew grammar On May 23, 9:17am, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Subject: IN> Hebrew grammar > Okay, I know this is a nit, but I feel compelled to say it: > > -- Begin Nit -- > > In this morning's IN mail, I've already seen references to > "A lilim," "A sheddim," and "A seraphim." The "-im" ending > is the Hebrew PLURAL, just like the "-s" ending in English. > > One member of the seraphim is a "seraph." One member of the > lilim or the sheddim is a lil or a shed, but that sounds funny > in English, so, in the IN book, one of the sheddim is a "sheddite," > (which is just Hebrew for "demon," my father tells me) and I > recommend one of the lilim be a "lilite" by analogy. The "-ite" > ending, by the way, is Greek, but we're used to it from things > like "Israelite," so it sounds kind of Biblical. > > -- End Nit -- > > Thank you. NON-CANON: I pretty much use this system (though I draw the line at Lilim... I _like_ Lilim to be both plural and singular.) though sometimes I slip. I still think that 'sheddite' sounds like a processed cheese food, though. ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:39:03 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: [none] On May 23, 12:08pm, gibsonc@nku.edu wrote: > Subject: > if a diabolical is almost redeemed, or just trying to become so, which > roll gives him divine intervention, and what are the effects? also does > anyone one else feel like its too easy for celestial to achieve higher > levels, by this i mean gain forces? Until they have actually 'switched sides' a demon is still a demon and intervention occurs as per the demon rules. A interesting point is that an angel-wannabe might _reject_ the good results of a diabolic intervention in his favor. This is getting a bit too far into game mechanics from the role-playing point of view, but could be used by some players/GMs. In this case, BOTH '111' and '666' would be bad results until redemption actually occured. Hey, no one said it would be easy! - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 16:01:10 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Geasa and Need question On May 22, 7:49pm, Kim Foster wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Geasa and Need question > Along the lines of the other questions posted here. > > > Can a lilm create a Need and then fullfull it to create a succesful geas? > > > Say..let the air out of someone's tires and then provide them a ride as poor > example. Hey, why not? But I wouldn't include mere allieviation of threats as a 'need'. So "Do what I say, or I'll kill you." is not a valid subject for a Geas, but "I've put a contract on your head... I _might_ convince them not to kill you. Can we talk?" would be. The basic idea is that something _is_ happening or _will_ happen if the Lilim doesn't interfere. That the Lilim might have set this up herself is a mere technicality. > Can God make a plot so twisted even he can't figure it out? > Tom Servo -MST 3K "The Island of Dr Fu Manchu" This has got to be one of the coolest quotes ever to come up on this list... ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:46:01 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Animal Vessel Question On May 23, 11:48pm, Michael C. Nutt wrote: > Subject: IN> Animal Vessel Question > Question about animal vessels... say, for instance, an angel with 2 > Corporeal Forces takes a cat vessel. she's got a Strength of 2, and an > Agility of 6... this would give a regular cat, as described on p. 191, the > ability to run 60 yards in a 5 second round! That's *moving on*... where > should the line be drawn for ground speeds? Also, would an animal vessel get > some of the skills listed under the animal description? Doesn't really make > sense to *not* give a cat Climbing, for instance... and will those skills > combine with the celestial's current skills, or replace them entirely? In my campaign (non-canon, but a reasonable idea) the 'skills' of animals are mostly hardwired reflexes and the advantages of having a body well-suited for practicing them. I use the normal skill rolls and give a bonus based on body shape/size. Or a penalty! (Why did the elephant paint his toes red? So he could hide in a strawberry patch. You get the idea...) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 97 04:29:01 UT From: "Kurt White" Subject: IN> IN quotes >> Can God make a plot so twisted even he can't figure it out? >> Tom Servo -MST 3K "The Island of Dr Fu Manchu" > This has got to be one of the coolest quotes ever to come >up on this list... ;) Definitely a cool quote, it reminds me of the question "Can God create a rock so big that he can't move it", or my favourite one, from the film "Airheads" : "Who would win a wrestling match between Lemmy (from Motorhead) and God?" "lemmy?" "Trick question, Lemmy IS God!" maybe we could get another weird thread going, Hypothetical Divine Paradoxes ?? Or start up a string of Jesuit Ethical Conundrums (I know some Catholics who could do a Master's degree in Applied Guilt). Might make for some fun ways to screw up Malakim in IN (definitely the choir/band I hate the most). - -Kurt "Malakim don't Fall, they're already the bottom of the barrel" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 14:57:49 +0930 From: "Damian O'Dea" Subject: IN> Too much intervention? Hi all, last night, in the conclusion to my first IN adventure, I rolled three Infernal and one Divine Interventions within the one combat. One of my group also took credit for rolling the first player-rolled Divine Int. in the same combat. I threw my metaphorical hands in the air and had the Superiors show up; Yves and Kronos standing behind the combatants and trading verbal blows as the characters and NPCs traded physical or celestial attacks. Was someone trying to tell me something? How would you have handled the excess of Interventions? My calculation of the odds of a single one is 1 in 216; what about the odds of pulling five in one session??? ODie... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 02:30:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Calabim@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Too much intervention? In a message dated 97-05-26 01:37:38 EDT, you write: << last night, in the conclusion to my first IN adventure, I rolled three Infernal and one Divine Interventions within the one combat. {Snip, Snip] Was someone trying to tell me something? How would you have handled the excess of Interventions? >> Actually you sound like you handled it fairly well... What would I do? An old phrase comes to mind "Relax und get into der stress!" I would do my dead level best to revel in it. Opportunities like this don't come along that often! Ok, so maybe 5 interventions is excessive. It may even crock one game session. But it's only a problem if it continues to happen, which isn't likely. After the game I would probably look at the scenario and start thinking up new and farther reaching plotlines that explain why this battle was so very important to Kronos and Yves... If you continue to do this sort of thing every game I would change dice! Or Not. ;-]) - -Calabim@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:47:55 +1000 (EST) From: Peter Frederick Subject: Re: IN> Gabriel question At 01:27 PM 21/5/97 -0400, you wrote: >On May 21, 6:59pm, Peter Frederick wrote: >> Subject: Re: IN> Gabriel question >> Dear Kurt, John, Shadow and List >> >> just another Gabriel question while we are thinking about them. >> >> Do Servitors of Gabriel gain Dissonance while in Heaven for not punishing >> there assigned class of sinners? > > John Wrote > Gabriel's servitors are required to punish anyone currently >on their 'hit list'. After that one is done, they must punish >the next one that they meet. Between those two times, they are >free to do as they will. If someone is currently on the 'hit list', >going up to Heaven will _not_ protect you from dissonance! Further Related thoughts : How much punishment are the Servitors of Fire expected to inflict, given that they are not bound as Dominic's are to match the punishment to the crime?? Can you keep one "target" going for a while by contiuning to chastise him, hopefully up to some sort of limit?? Thanking you for your indulgence. Yours Peter. Email to peterf@geko.net.au "Whoso loveth God truely must not expect to be loved by Him in return." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 10:07:15 EST From: temujin09@juno.com (Nathaniel P Eliot) Subject: Re: IN> Redemption for Lilim? >> I have a question in the other direction: it seems that Kyriotates >> have a really long way to Fall. Is there anything a Kyriotate can >> be other than a Shedim, who seem the psychotic to every other >> demon's personality problem? > >Nope. Kyriotates become Shedim, officially. I know that part; I was hoping more for unofficial ideas. >Remember that even _Kyriotates_ aren't considered exactly normal and >rational. Normal, no - their multiplicity is definately unique. I would argue otherwise on the rational part; there's nothing in the rules that makes any indication of that. If anything, the Ofanim seem to be the most irrational, followed by the Malakim (if you see them that way). >Now twist that kind of personality and force to >exist in only ONE vessel at a time. Which destroys one of the things that makes the Kyriotate truely unique. Yes, I can see why the Shedim would be one direction, but as the only direction they seem to restrictive. ============================================================= | | | /\ | | Nathaniel Eliot | Chaos, Discord, and the | / \ | | temujin09@juno.com | Illuminated Way | / <> \ | | | | /______\ | ============================================================= - -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQBNAzOFIvMAAAECANs4HlqFO8mbqI8Qd9KDJzSAgHJ925TOZ+m0Eg/oz9C15JVP Ss32gnbsCs7163J/bURPtUJP2Q3Foli/NQX7Lr0ABRG0JE5hdGhhbmllbCBFbGlv dCA8dGVtdWppbjA5QGp1bm8uY29tPg== =4Y8y - -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 12:55:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Kabael Subject: IN> celestial breeding i have always wondered how IN dealt with the creation of new angels and demons. Are all the angels the same ones that were created before the universe, because that would raise many question about why the PCs are so weak if they have been around for 15 billion years.If they havent been, how are new ones *born*. The Grigori were able to breed with humans, the book of Genesis (right around 6:2 to 6:4) says that the *sons of God* looked upon the women in the world, and *saw that the daughters of men were fair; and they took to wife such of them as they chose.* Those unions eventually produced the Nephilim, were later produced more children for the *sons of God.* Now my question is Do angels breed, can they breed, if not, how do they reproduce. BTW, has anyone done any work of Nephilim or the Grigori. All I have are biblical references, what is mentioned in the IN book, what I think would be cool, and the Nephilim game by Chaosium (which I want to get, does anyone out there have it, any reviews perhaps) Kabael MEO kabael@tiac.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:34:28 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Too much intervention? On Mon, 26 May 1997 14:57:49 +0930, "Damian O'Dea" wrote: >last night, in the conclusion to my first IN adventure, I rolled three >Infernal and one Divine Interventions within the one combat. One of my >group also took credit for rolling the first player-rolled Divine Int. >in the same combat. I threw my metaphorical hands in the air and had >the Superiors show up; Yves and Kronos standing behind the combatants >and trading verbal blows as the characters and NPCs traded physical or >celestial attacks. > >Was someone trying to tell me something? > >How would you have handled the excess of Interventions? I agree with the statement that you handled it well. If you want more options, intervention doesn't have to mean the intervention of superiors. Indeed, for perception and non-combat skill rolls, it probably shouldn't. Even in combat, the intervention could be an NPC of appropriate alignment making a spectacular accidental entrance into the scenario. For example: You hear a long screech, a huge thump, and then a gradually slowing grinding and tinkling. A Porsche Targa rolls over and over between the combatants--rubber side up, rubber side down, rubber side up, rubber side down--still shedding glass and trim pieces. It stops just past the combatants, and someone vaults out of the wreckage, "Wow!! What a friggin' RIDE!!!" (Probably an Ofanite of Janus or a Calabite of Valefor.) Or: A fireball erupts near the combatants, and various light aircraft parts skitter from the fireball, most still trailing fire. A celestial form drops to the ground near the edge of the fireball, goes corporeal, and exclaims, "I HATE it when that happens!" Warming his hands at the fire, he adds quietly, "Nice fire, though..." (Gabriel or Belial.) The nice thing about interventions like these is that although they're dramatic, they don't really have that much effect on the situation since it'll take the newcomer time to figure out who's who. >My calculation of the odds of a single one is 1 in 216; what about the >odds of pulling five in one session??? As you I'm sure you know, the odds are 2 in 216: one divine and one demonic intervention in the 216 possible rolls. Without knowing the number of rolls in the session, the odds of that many interventions can't be calculated. In 75 rolls, the chance of having no interventions is just under 50%. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #183 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.