From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed May 28 14:55:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA09054 for ; Wed, 28 May 1997 14:55:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA25980 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 28 May 1997 13:41:55 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:41:55 -0500 Message-Id: <199705281841.NAA25980@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #185 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, May 28 1997 Volume 01 : Number 185 In this digest: RE: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... Re: IN> Questions: Cosmology and pantheistic religions Re: IN> Questions: Cosmology and pantheistic religions IN> Re: your mail Re: IN> Re: your mail Re: IN> Questions: Cosmology and pantheistic religions Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... Re: IN> Animal Vessel Question Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Questions Re: IN> Dark Malakim Re:IN> Lilim Resonance Question IN> In Nomine - Dodge Re: IN> The White Witch as Superior Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Question Re: IN> Re: your mail Re: IN> The White Witch as Superior Re: IN> Re: your mail Re:IN> Lilim Resonance Question ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 16:50:16 -0700 (MST) From: shadocat@primenet.com (Jeff Miller) Subject: RE: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... >>The Problem : Can Kyriotates/Shedim possess the vessels of celestials? >OK, >>sure, the first, instinctive answer is "Sure they can", but let's look a >>little more closely at the problem. >>Under the description of Shedim, it says they "manifest by possessing the >>bodies of living humans". Says nothing about animals, celestials, or >>anything else. Just humans. > >IMO, when it says the "bodies of living humans", it says nothing about >celestials, because they cannot be possessed. I don't think that a >celestial's vessel is human, so that seems to rule them out. > I would rule that way but it made me think about another possibility. Can a Kyriotate/Shedite possess the *host* of another Ky./Shedite? If so, this could lead to some interesting (and bizarre) between the two. There's also another problem with that answer. A K/S becomes a limited Celestial detector. (granted they only detect one at a time and the potential host may have had a high will, but it would confirm that a person is *not* a Celestial) -- Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 17:49:29 -0700 From: Rob Coon Subject: Re: IN> Questions: Cosmology and pantheistic religions Scott Johnson wrote: > I must say, something about that statement rubs me the wrong > way. In > the In Nomine universe, Zeus exists. Thor exists. Amaterasu exists. > Eris exists. Shiva exists. It's just that they all live on the > Etherial > plane, not the Celestial. Actually, any of them could be dead--I don't recall seeing any information that they had all survived Uriel's purging. I figure the survivors may vary, but ones who likely got axed, if Uriel could have gotten his hands on them:- The Heads of the Pantheons (Zeus, Odin (your choice of spelling), etc. etc.). Such obvious targets! - - The war gods. Too powerful to let live. - - Gods representing the unclean. Ones which likely survived: - - The middle-powered. Small ones get squished easily, strong ones are big targets. - - Trickster gods. If Raven couldn't figure out how to escape Uriel... - - Gods representing "good" things, may have been let free. I personally dislike mapping the gods, myself, as I don't like the idea of such malleable greater forces, and you can sure as heck _bet_ Dominic's going to be breathing down the neck of the first Archangel who tries that (of course, that may have been one of Michael's faults). I'd guess they'd map better to demons, who I should think would be most interested in undermining as many faiths as they can and jade people. Start a cult, get people into it, disprove it, and smile as the members walk away shattered. Rob Coon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 21:28:50 -0500 (CDT) From: Scott Johnson Subject: Re: IN> Questions: Cosmology and pantheistic religions On Tue, 27 May 1997, Rob Coon wrote: > > Actually, any of them could be dead--I don't recall seeing any > information that they had all survived Uriel's purging. I figure the > survivors may vary, but ones who likely got axed, if Uriel could have > gotten his hands on them: Definitely true. Mostly what I meant is that they all at least existed, at one time or another. Gods have died, but that doesn't invalidate their myths as a whole. And at least a few remnants of most pantheons remains somewhere, although some are likely stronger than others. Perhaps this is reflected in how much they're visible in modern life today - after all, the Etherial plane both influences and is influenced by humanity's dreams. Thus, the Greek and Norse gods would still be pretty strong, and the Egyptian gods are still just managing to hang on, but the Celtic gods have taken heavy losses, and the Aztec and Babylonian gods were nearly wiped out. (Just to take a few random names.) > - The Heads of the Pantheons (Zeus, Odin > (your choice of spelling), etc. etc.). Such obvious targets! True - but in most pantheons, they'd also be the most well-guarded. While there was a lot of infighting in many pantheons, in the end, the heads would be able to command at least a solid core of their gods. And the heads were also likely among the most powerful members of the pantheon - while they may not have been on God's level by the time Uriel was able to smite most of the mythical beasts, I'd still rank them with the Archangels and Demon Princes. I'd guess that the heads of some survived, while others were slain in epic battles by Uriel himself, battles that would still be legend if anyone were still inclined to tell them (they're more tragedy than glorious epic to most of the pantheons, I'd think, and Heaven's likely a bit embarassed about them following Uriel's recall.) > - The war gods. Too powerful to let live. True. Though if some survived, there's some interesting possibilities - I'm currently thinking of a group of war gods of various pantheons conspiring to try to take back the Earth... > - Gods representing the unclean. To a certain extent, yes. Or any other gods representing obvious evil/stuff that's distasteful to Heaven or Uriel. However, the evil gods were the ones most likely to have struck a deal with Beleth early on for protection and a hiding place... > Ones which likely survived: > - The middle-powered. Small ones get squished easily, strong ones > are big targets. No argument here. > - Trickster gods. If Raven couldn't figure out how to escape > Uriel... Again, definitely. Not much has been printed about Uriel yet, but I get the impression he was more of an all-out, straightforward warrior than a cunning plotter who could outthink the best of them. Highly skilled in war, yes, and quite intelligent, but I think Raven, Coyote, Eris, Loki, and the like could all have found a way to turn his strengths and weaknesses to their advantage. > - Gods representing "good" things, may have been let free. Maybe. Then again, I wonder if Uriel would have been that generous. I don't think we've been given a Choir for him, but he seems a bit like a Malakite to me, and if so, I think the best option he might have given is 'Convert or die.' His word was Purity, remember - and he took it to mean purity of mythos: one world, one pantheon. Conversion would probably have been acceptable - purifying oneself with the cleansing light of Heaven - but letting abominations unto the sight of the Lord live? I somehow don't quite think so. > I personally dislike mapping the gods, myself, as I don't like the idea > of such malleable greater forces, and you can sure as heck _bet_ > Dominic's going to be breathing down the neck of the first Archangel who > tries that (of course, that may have been one of Michael's faults). I'd > guess they'd map better to demons, who I should think would be most > interested in undermining as many faiths as they can and jade people. > Start a cult, get people into it, disprove it, and smile as the members > walk away shattered. Always a possibility. Of course, we can't really map all the gods to demons, either, else we end up utterly trashing the myths, and running into problems when, for instance, those gods urge their followers to do things utterly contrary to the spirit of Hell. Some gods it might work for, but I can't really see it working for all of them. I'm actually contemplating writing up the Shinto pantheon - the surviving major kami and their servitors, along with a history of what happened to them during and after Uriel's purge. It might be interesting for people to draw up outlines of pantheons they're familiar with, and how Uriel might have affected them, and what they're up to now. At the very least, it might make a good on-line supplement to _The Marches_ when it comes out... - -- Scott Johnson | zagyg@io.com | This space intentionally left blank. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 22:39:23 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul F. Strack" Subject: IN> Re: your mail On Tue, 27 May 1997 gibsonc@nku.edu wrote: > if a celestial reaches 0 celestial forces he becomes a remnant. Does this > mean he has a will and perceoption of zero? Yes. > is there no way a human can take celestial damage? You would somehow have to get her soul out of her body, by no means an easy thing to do. There are also a *very few* abilities that allow you to do Celestial damage to a being that is inside a Corporeal vessel. The only one I can think of is Calabim of Lust. That ability does not allow you to do enough Celestial damage to remove a Force, however. As a rule, any being with a Corporeal form is immune to Celestial damage. Paul ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 23:12:29 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> Re: your mail > On Tue, 27 May 1997 gibsonc@nku.edu wrote: > > if a celestial reaches 0 celestial forces he becomes a remnant. Does this > > mean he has a will and perceoption of zero? > > Yes. I can think of a way for that to not be true. If the celestial in question has bought up a celestial attribute, they should still remain. Therefore, I think you could technically have a Remnant with three points in celestial attributes. > > is there no way a human can take celestial damage? > > You would somehow have to get her soul out of her body, by no means an > easy thing to do. There are also a *very few* abilities that allow you > to do Celestial damage to a being that is inside a Corporeal vessel. The > only one I can think of is Calabim of Lust. That ability does not allow > you to do enough Celestial damage to remove a Force, however. > > As a rule, any being with a Corporeal form is immune to Celestial damage. Yes. The only ways other than the Calabim of Lust would be Stupid Possession Tricks, and those are void where prohibited by GM whim. > Paul Oops da Ogre, I _think_ you can do celestial damage to someone in the etherial realms... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 23:38:12 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Questions: Cosmology and pantheistic religions > Definitely true. Mostly what I meant is that they all at least existed, > at one time or another. Gods have died, but that doesn't invalidate their > myths as a whole. And at least a few remnants of most pantheons remains There IS the interesting question of what "causes" Gods; personally, I tend to ascribe to the holding that they draw their existance and power from the faith of their followers. That could make Uriel's job both more difficult and much more interesting...not just a matter of going around stabbing them, but also of using the Church (primarily) to quash faith in them so they don't spring back to existance. {There would be a definite reciprocal effect - if nothing else, their `absence' in death would be a definite downer to any followers requesting miracles, and I think the killing of one would echo out and cause a direct loss of followers, but...it does bring up the possibility of a fledging god `reappearing' as new cults grow up around it, probably inspired by Demons just to annoy Uriel and keep other angels busy.} This would also give some ideas for which Gods still survive in any significant for - specifically, those for whom there's any modern movement, as it could be presumed they are at least somewhat behind those. Still limited in their ability to walk among people, able to do it almost exclusively within the Marches where they can hide out, but that fits. > > - The Heads of the Pantheons (Zeus, Odin > True - but in most pantheons, they'd also be the most well-guarded. While Some of these I could see being taken out, others not. Taking these two, I'd suggest Zeus is probably gone, for three reasons. 1) He seemed the type to get personally involved and try to really hold Mt. Olympus, rather than retreat to the Marches. 2) If he were still around, we'd still be getting occasional children from him (). And 3), primarily, the historic note that Christianity per se largely started in opposition to the Greek/Roman pantheon, so I suspect they were the first ones targeted and probably mostly quashed if they didn't run...right about during Constantine's reign. Odin, on the other hand, I'd suggest is hanging out in the Marches, biding his time. Trading depth perception for wisdom in a warrior society seems like a real dumb move at first, but it shows he'd be willing to make the compromises needed to stay functioning through the years.. > while they may not have been on God's level by the time Uriel was able to > smite most of the mythical beasts, I'd still rank them with the Archangels > and Demon Princes. I'd guess that the heads of some survived, while Presonally, I'm considering the Old Gods to be about equivalent to an Archangel one-on-one, but NOT in the sense of being able to empower as many Servitors...in effect, able to match them only by being more concentrated. > tragedy than glorious epic to most of the pantheons, I'd think, and > Heaven's likely a bit embarassed about them following Uriel's recall.) I think a lot of it is just the note that having someone specifically going around killing them entails acknowledging their validity...which, as I said, I personally think would tend to call them back to existance, over and over. Gives Uriel job security, but... > True. Though if some survived, there's some interesting possibilities - > I'm currently thinking of a group of war gods of various pantheons > conspiring to try to take back the Earth... Heh...I like that...though enough of the war gods were of the kind of stupid variety that they'd have gone down fighting. Some of the craftier ones may well have gotten away, though. (Say, Ares is gone..Athena's probably playing chess with Odin.) > evil/stuff that's distasteful to Heaven or Uriel. However, the evil gods > were the ones most likely to have struck a deal with Beleth early on for > protection and a hiding place... Definitely. Likewise the Gods of Death, though I don't suggest Death as inherently evil. > > - Gods representing "good" things, may have been let free. > Maybe. Then again, I wonder if Uriel would have been that generous. I I wouldn't so much even go "Maybe" on this; they seem the least likely, finding Beleth distasteful. Possibly hoping Uriel would spare them, they may well have presented themselves to him...and I agree with you, I can't see the Archangel of Purity as the compromising sort. (The Archangel of Kinda Purity just doesn't work.) Unless, as you suggest, there may have been some way for them to accept `demotion' to Angels... Though, somewhat in line with your "Gods of War Society" thought, there's the amusing idea of them banding together in patchwork pantheons...(Odin watching over his own Sif, Isis and Bast, Venus, Hades, and Legba..) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 23:43:02 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... > Can a Kyriotate/Shedite possess the *host* of another Ky./Shedite? If so, > this could lead to some interesting (and bizarre) between the two. Not, I would think, without kicking the current occupant out; the way it's handled pretty strongly suggests one host to a vessel at a time, so I think they'd just tussel over it. (Though a Sheddite wounding a Kyriotate's host and then kicking him out so that he's left it in worse condition...) > There's also another problem with that answer. A K/S becomes a limited > Celestial detector. (granted they only detect one at a time and the Technically, but only if they want to go possessing everyone they meet just to find out. Not very practical, I'd say. And if they suspect someone and want to risk it, that strikes me as entirely fair, given that there are lots of other ways to tell...if there weren't, Asmodeus's "Humanity" Attunement wouldn't be so exciting. It DOES bring up the question of what happens if they try to posess a Servitor of the Game who's using that, though...personally, I think the Kyriotate should bounce, though, and it may well be a clue, if the GM only describes it as, ("MAN this guy's got a high will. And he's looking straight at you and smiling. Nastily.") ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 00:30:04 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Animal Vessel Question >> sense to *not* give a cat Climbing, for instance... and will those >>skills combine with the celestial's current skills, or replace them >>entirely? > It would make sense that cats can climb but the Kyriotate has no access to > the hosts memories [p102] and thus no access to its skills so it depends on I'd disagree with that, actually; skills, especially in an animal, are distinctly different from memories. A lot of the physical stuff is hardwired into the spine, even in humans, and Kyriotates reasonably have to be able to access that...otherwise, they'd spend the first three days stumbling around crashing into things every time they took ANY new body, let alone a new species. I'd give them limited control over it, and the choice of using that or their own. Eg. a Kyriotate who knows how to climb on his own can climb BETTER and in ways that a cat wouldn't - down, for example. One who doesn't can still climb strictly as a cat, because some of that skill comes simply from the body being so well designed for it and the BODY - -knows how-...but while they can scramble up that tree based on that, they're going to be stuck there just like the cat would be unless they think of something clever. Similarly, a Kyriotate who possesses a bird doesn't immediately crash out of the air the way they would if the bird's body didn't know how to fly, a Kyriotate in a dog knows how to bite (but, again, has the option of either using their own Fighting skill, or going with the dog's...which will entail things like going for the throat a lot and STOPPING if their target surrenders. Accepting instincts cuts both ways.) And heck, one in a goose or butterfly could probably migrate... On the human level, physical reflexes should still be available, but again, less controlled. This means you don't keep bumping into things until you figure out how tall you are, and that if, say, you're in a martial artist's body, you can probably tap his skill to some extent, but only on the reflexive level, which strongly suggests defensive only. (Eg. someone kicks you, and before you know it, you've blocked. Cool. Now you try to kick back..but that entails exerting conscious control, so you're on your own.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 00:42:47 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Questions > Or hand it over to Mom, perhaps? "Hello, dear, one of my Daughters > saved your Malakite hide." Evil. Evil, evil, evil. But heck, there's lots of people a Lilim could potentially pass the favor to...Asmodeus, if she's feeling nice. ("Don't worry, you're going to -like- this job..")..maybe Dominic if she's not. ("You let yourself become indebted to WHAT?") > >perhaps she'd be willing to accept a payment of Essence in order > >to cancel the Geas? (Gads... I'm getting a vision of monthly payments > >here, kind of like a car note.) > Hee hee hee... I like it. Keep it monthly; why cancel the Geas? ("I'd like you to do -this- for me. Oh, you really don't like that? Well, if you really want, I'll take some Essence and let it go for now.." [time passes] "Okay, I'd like you to do -this- for me. Oh? Well, there's always our usual arrangement.." Just keep it hanging over them until they cave in and accept one..) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 00:55:44 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Dark Malakim > the example of Bright Lilim, a Dark Malakim would remain a Malakim, and I wouldn't quite think they'd stay Malakim. The Lilim are a bit of an exceptional case in that they were never Angels to start with, and so have no place there. Any case of a fallen Angel we know of becomes some form of Demon, and I would presume likewise with the Malakim, though I don't currently have any thoughts on what to call them. > still have to abide by the Oaths he took as an Angel. And most eminently > troublesome among those are the two oaths all Malakim take, which seem to be > hardwired into them, "No Retreat, No Surrender" and "Thou shalt not suffer a > Demon to live." A Dark Malakim would thus rack up dissonance at an Easy enough to get around. The first oath is to never suffer "an evil" to live. Evil is a highly subjective term. Consider the Balseraph in this - they NEVER lie; they just reconstruct their view of reality at a whim. Becoming gradually convinced that maybe Lucifer was right and Hell isn't the evil one strikes me as a comparatively easy path. (My Outcast Malakite is somewhat headed on that path - he currently kills any demons he sees more because the idea of not doing it is frightening to him than because he's still convinced it's the only way to go. Never surrenduring would still hold, and I can't see any reason a Demon Prince would want to muck about with it. Other than that, you just hold them more or less the way you treat a Habbalite, assuring them that of course what they're doing is for the right cause... In effect, their Oaths would just crack a bit and take the step from honor to fanaticism. Offhand, I think a Fallen Malakite would be scarier in combat than about anything short of Lucifer... (Nihilim, the Slayers, perhaps..) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 03:43:30 -0400 (EDT) From: "Michael C. Nutt" Subject: Re:IN> Lilim Resonance Question >On Tue, 27 May 1997, Leathal Weapon wrote: > >> Just a quick comment on 'Qualified Geasa'. John Karakash said that he >> wasn't sure that they even existed, but I'd just like to point out >> that his own PBEM game has a lilim with qualified geasa. Elizabeth >> McCoy's Lilim states in her character profile that she has level 6 >> geases to Lilith (instead of level 3) on the proviso that they >> wouldn't be traded to certain Demon Princes. > >I think what Karakash meant (and I agree with this) is that the geasa >*itself* cannot be qualified. The circumstances around a geasa can be >negotiated like any other contract. A Lilim can say to an geased angel >"Do this for me" and the angel can say "I'd rather not do that. If you >ask me to do that, I'll resist. On the other hand, I can do this." The >Lilim then has the option of changing her request. Furthermore, the geasa >can have some negotiated restrictions such as "Don't trade this geasa >away," and those restrictions can even be backed up with additional geasa. >Remember, a Lilim can always geas herself to make her keep a promise. But what if the initial promise by the victim is contingent on the Lilim only asking for a certain thing? Example: "You'll get me Gillian Anderson's home phone number, after which I'll slaughter 12 Cherubs for you? OK, sounds good to me... it's a deal." Based on my reading of the Ethereal Discord, *and* on the Lilim resonance section on p. 147-148, a geas is a compulsion on an individual to do one particular thing. A Lilim does *not* "get a Geas" on someone just by meeting his need after invoking her hersonance... she merely has the *potential* to do so. (p. 148... "After meeting her side of the bargain, she can then impose a geas on her victim." The passage on p. 149 under Mechanics also supports this interpretation.) This passage implies, to me at least, that there has to be a *bargain struck*, AND that the victim is merely in her debt. He doesn't suffer from a Geas until she actually calls in her favor for something in particular after fulfilling her side of the bargain, and if the Lilim's side of the bargain included only asking for a certain thing, then she hasn't kept her side of the bargain if she asks for something else. A *wily* victim might think on dismembering the Lilim's Forces before she gets a chance to call in that favor... but that's neither here nor there. Also, if she *has* no Heart, then just blasting her vessel might keep her from redeeming that favor for an indefinite period of time. Of course, *nobody* would *ever* be so crude as to try to welch on a favor that had been extracted under duress by the Lilim! >However, the restriction are negotiated and no more binding than a human >contract. The geasa itself has two attributes: a favor owed (a) by a >particular being at (b) a particular level. Within those two >restrictions, the Lilim in question can ask *anything*. Once the geasa >has been invoked, the victim has two choices: resist and risk dissonance, >or obey. As long as it's in keeping with the initial "bargain", then, yes, she can ask for whatever she wants. If the victim isn't a good dickerer, then he might be in trouble... after all, a Lilim will probably be *good* at weaseling. If the initial bargain was contingent upon her asking for *one specific thing*, though, I'd say she's stuck with that. After all, she doesn't *have* to help the victim out in the first place. She also doesn't *have* to tell the truth about what conditions would apply... "Oh, that's just the fine print, honey. Don't worry about it... it doesn't really mean anything." She could also refuse to help him if he wanted *any* conditions... and if he needed help badly enough, the poor victim might accept anyway, on the "any port in a storm" philosophy. > The Lilim can always break her word when invoking the geasa; she >can even violate the self-geased restrictions, although doing so will >cause her Dissonance. And this is where I differ with you... if she breaks her word at this point as far as keeping her side of the bargain, I would hold that she's made it impossible for her to invoke a Geas upon the individual in question. I see the "self-Geas" as coming into play mostly when she promises to actually *meet* the perceived Need... "I *swear* I'll get you the money before the bank forecloses on your house. Afterwards... well, you'll just owe me a big favor." Michael There are two secrets to success: 1. Never tell everything you know. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:50:42 +0200 From: "Somerville, Fredrik" Subject: IN> In Nomine - Dodge In the rules for full dodging you say that character get a +2 bonus to his roll. Does this apply to raising target number, check digit, or both? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 07:54:16 -0500 (CDT) From: Austin George Loomis Subject: Re: IN> The White Witch as Superior On Tue, 27 May 1997, at 11:28:29 CDT, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Lilim is a good band for Jadis, not only because of her geas-laying >habit, but because, in "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe," >the beaver describes her as not really human at all, but descended >on one side from Lilith and on the other from "the Jinns and the >Giants." Djinn and Grigori? > Could be. I had the descent from Lilith uppermost in my mind when I made her a Lilim. That and the fact that we don't have rules for the Children of the Grigori yet, so while she might well fit in nicely with that lot, we don't know that yet, and won't know until next year at the earliest. >Jadis, however, does not appear to be a direct creation of Lilith. >In "The Magician's Nephew," (Which, I must confess, I've never actually read.) >she is described as having a family, *sigh* Oh well. I suppose I could have guessed as much from the mention in LW&W of her having parentage, but I was simplifying. ("Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not more so." -- Einstein, I think) >and so appears to belong to a non-human race of some kind, native >to (or at least ruling) the world of Charn. Nephilim, perhaps? >So there is scope for >still more complication if anyone wants to try integrating the world >of IN with the world of Narnia (which includes our Earth as well >as the worlds of Narnia an Charn, and the possibility of as many >more worlds as you please). > My natural inclination would be to put fairylands (of which Narnia and Charn are probably some) in the Marches. Other planets, on the other hand (like Malacandra and Perelandra from the Space Trilogy) are quite corporeal. (Speaking of the Space Trilogy, I've tentatively matched the Oyeresu from that series with IN Archangels. In my model, Viritrilbia [Mercury, for those of you who haven't read the series -- I always have to go to my copy of _That Hideous Strength_ to get the other name right] is Janus, Perelandra [i.e. Venus] is Novalis, Malacandra [Mars -- the first Oyarsa Ransom meets] is Laurence, Glund [Jupiter] is Michael and Lurga [Saturn] is Yves. WDYT,S?) >I was once involved in a project by Iron Crown to produce role-playing >materials set in Narnia, by the way, but the project foundered on >the conflicting demands of the various parties who hold copyright >on Narnia. > Oh well. In that case, the posted versions of Jadis will definitely need to include an expanded version of that copyright disclaimer I put in the errata. Something more like: "Jadis, as presented here, is inspired by the character of the same name appearing in _The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe_ by C.S. Lewis, which is © C.S. Lewis, Pty., Ltd." >Earl Wajenberg > Austin George "For what that's worth" Loomis ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:40:58 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Question On May 28, 8:58am, Leathal Weapon wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Question > John wrote: > > > The Geasa themselves aren't qualified: Lilith made a > > _promise_ not to trade them away. ;) > > Which in essence qualifies them. Saying "I'll change these geasa to > level 6 IF YOU promise not to trade them" is qualifying them. If > Elizabeth's character (Serah) had 9 level 3 Geasa and then had an > additional Geas because she owed Lilith for not trading them, then > that would be unqualified. But by making the Geasa more powerful on > the condition that something didn't happen, they've been qualified. > Whether the Geasa were qualified or not, it comes down to the same > thing. If Lilith trades them away (whatever the original conditions > were) then she will suffer for it :) Hello? Are we communicating here? The _geasa_ have NOT BEEN CHANGED OR QUALIFIED. Lilith still has the option of breaking her promise and using them whatever the hell way she wants to. She CHOOSES not to do so. There is nothing more binding on her than a verbal agreement between her and this particular Lilim in my campaign. I repeat, the geasa themselves have not been qualified in any way. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:47:52 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Re: your mail On May 27, 10:39pm, Paul F. Strack wrote: > Subject: IN> Re: your mail > On Tue, 27 May 1997 gibsonc@nku.edu wrote: > > if a celestial reaches 0 celestial forces he becomes a remnant. Does this > > mean he has a will and perceoption of zero? > > Yes. Except for the odd case where they might have bought up one or more of their Celestial stats. So they could have between 0-3 in Will and Perception together. Essentially, your answer is correct, however. > > is there no way a human can take celestial damage? > > You would somehow have to get her soul out of her body, by no means an > easy thing to do. There are also a *very few* abilities that allow you > to do Celestial damage to a being that is inside a Corporeal vessel. The > only one I can think of is Calabim of Lust. That ability does not allow > you to do enough Celestial damage to remove a Force, however. > > As a rule, any being with a Corporeal form is immune to Celestial damage. Yup. That's pretty much the case. However that is a _general_ rule, not a universal one. There may be very special circumstances where a being with a Corporeal form might take Celestial damage. I'm not saying that I know of such a case as of right now, but it's possible in the future. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:34:23 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The White Witch as Superior Austin George Loomis wrote: "Speaking of the Space Trilogy, I've tentatively matched the Oyeresu from that series with IN Archangels. In my model, Viritrilbia [Mercury...] is Janus, Perelandra [i.e. Venus] is Novalis, Malacandra [Mars -- the first Oyarsa Ransom meets] is Laurence, Glund [Jupiter] is Michael and Lurga [Saturn] is Yves." [Jumps up and down in seat excitedly and waves hand to be called on.] Here's an idea: In a throw-away line, in "That Hideous Strength," Ransom remarks that each of the great planetary oyeresu has an "ambassador" spirit present on each of the other planets. Thus "there is a terrestrial as well as a celestial Venus" etc. I like your identifications, but how about if those archangels are the ambassadors of the extraterrestrial spirits? Perelandra, Virtrilbia, Malacandra, etc., would then be denizens of those upper reaches of Heaven that the book hints at but leaves uncharted. Of course, there are lots more archangels than planets, but not every archangel needs to be a plantary ambassador. Or, if one insists, there are plenty of moons, asteroids, and comets... Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:42:48 -0500 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> Re: your mail > > > > As a rule, any being with a Corporeal form is immune to Celestial damage. > > Yup. That's pretty much the case. However that is a > _general_ rule, not a universal one. There may be very special > circumstances where a being with a Corporeal form might take > Celestial damage. I'm not saying that I know of such a case as > of right now, but it's possible in the future. > > -- > ___________________________________________________ > / \ > |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | > | (919)380-4629 | > | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | > | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | > | In this country we tax success most of all." | > \___________________________________________________/ Sounds to me like Herr John is dodging The Awful Things That Tear Out Eyeballs and Their Even More Awful Kindred That Feast On Entrails again. ()[===] David, Stone Malakim {beats being a Stone B***h} ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:39:43 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul F. Strack" Subject: Re:IN> Lilim Resonance Question I wrote: > >I think what Karakash meant (and I agree with this) is that the geasa > >*itself* cannot be qualified. The circumstances around a geasa can be > >negotiated like any other contract. A Lilim can say to an geased angel > >"Do this for me" and the angel can say "I'd rather not do that. If you > >ask me to do that, I'll resist. On the other hand, I can do this." The > >Lilim then has the option of changing her request. Furthermore, the geasa > >can have some negotiated restrictions such as "Don't trade this geasa > >away," and those restrictions can even be backed up with additional geasa. > >Remember, a Lilim can always geas herself to make her keep a promise. On Wed, 28 May 1997, Michael C. Nutt wrote: > But what if the initial promise by the victim is contingent on the Lilim > only asking for a certain thing? Example: "You'll get me Gillian Anderson's > home phone number, after which I'll slaughter 12 Cherubs for you? OK, sounds > good to me... it's a deal." I am beginning to suspect that our differences lie in terminology rather than actual disagreement. > Based on my reading of the Ethereal Discord, *and* on the Lilim resonance > section on p. 147-148, a geas is a compulsion on an individual to do one > particular thing. A Lilim does *not* "get a Geas" on someone just by meeting > his need after invoking her hersonance... she merely has the *potential* to > do so. (p. 148... "After meeting her side of the bargain, she can then > impose a geas on her victim." The passage on p. 149 under Mechanics also > supports this interpretation.) This passage implies, to me at least, that > there has to be a *bargain struck*, AND that the victim is merely in her > debt. He doesn't suffer from a Geas until she actually calls in her favor > for something in particular after fulfilling her side of the bargain, and if > the Lilim's side of the bargain included only asking for a certain thing, > then she hasn't kept her side of the bargain if she asks for something else. Let me introduce some terminology that will help clarify the situation. A *potential* geas is what a Lilim gets after she fulfills a targets need, but before she actually asks for the favor. An *actualized* geas is the geas after the Lilim makes it clear what she wants from her victim. I think you are talking about actualized geasa, while I am talking about potential geasa. A Lilim can gather potential geasa with almost no restrictions at all. She can do so without the victim's consent, or even their knowledge! All she need do is learn the victim's need and fulfill it. In fact, neither the victim or the Lilim control which need the Lilim must fulfill; it is determined randomly by the Resonance roll. If the GM wants, he may allow this stage to be negotiated instead of rolled randomly. The potential geas is always unqualified. It has two characteristics: the person owing a favor and the level at which the favor is owed. There is very little a victim can do to prevent the Lilim from gathering a potential geasa, other than refusing all gifts from the Lilim :) When the Lilim wants to actualize the geasa, she has two choices: 1) She can try to force the victim to obey her will. The victim gets a Will roll to resist. If the Will roll fails, the victim has no choice but to obey or suffer the Dischord. If the Will roll succeeds, the geas is "used up" and the *Lilim* gains dissonance. There are no restrictions on what the Lilim can ask for, other than the Level of the potential geas. 2) The Lilim can negotiate with the victim. She can say "Either I can force you to do what I want, or we can talk about it." She and the victim can dicker over terms until they are mutually satisfactory. Then the victim *voluntarily* accepts the negotiated geas, i.e. he doesn't resist. This way (a) the victim gets some input into the favor and (b) the Lilim doesn't risk dissonance. Option (2) is much more common when Lilim are dealing with other Celestials. However, if they cannot agree on something, Option (1) is always available. If there are any remaining differences between us, I think it may lie in what a Lilim gathers when she fulfills a need. In my opinion, when a Lilim fulfills a need, she gets a *potential* geas. After all, it is clear from the rules that a Lilim can gather geasa without the victim's consent, otherwise there would be no need for a resistance roll. This would be impossible if all geasa were fully negotiated. I think the rules (not to mention the netrep) back me up on this. No additional qualifiers can be put on the geas until the Lilim gets around to using or "actualizing" it. Thus, when the Lilim fulfills a need, she can promise to only ask for a specific favor later. However, she can always welch on that promise and ask for something else. The only option left to the victim is to try and resist with a Will roll. Of course, there is the universal golden rule of gaming: your game is yours and you are free to interpret the rules as you see fit. On the other hand, since you are playing in my PBEM, my interpretation of the rules may have some impact on you as well :) Paul Paul Strack | Madness takes its toll. pfstrack@math.unc.edu | Please have exact change. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ World of Darkness Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/wod.html In Nomine Page: INC2 - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/innom/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #185 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.