From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed May 28 22:03:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA28699 for ; Wed, 28 May 1997 22:03:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA08488 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 28 May 1997 21:16:31 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:16:31 -0500 Message-Id: <199705290216.VAA08488@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #186 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, May 28 1997 Volume 01 : Number 186 In this digest: Re: IN> Questions: Cosmology and pantheistic religions IN> KYD #10 (Marc) Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... Re: IN> Questions: Cosmology and pantheistic religions Re: IN> Re: your mail Re: IN> KYD #10 (Marc) Re: IN> Words and changing sides IN> Fluff: A Practical Demonstration... IN> Needs and Perception Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Question IN> freberg: STAN FREBERG HERE (1996) (fwd) Re: IN> The White Witch as Superior Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Question Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Questions Re: IN> Needs and Perception IN> IN -> GURPS conversion IN> Celestial Outcasts IN> Re: Remnant Will & Perception Re: IN> Hebrew grammar Re: IN> The Characteristic of Perception Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 14:08:45 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Questions: Cosmology and pantheistic religions Each to their own, of course, but my own view is that the way to get the most out of IN is to take the premise at its face value -- angels and demons in the everyday world -- and not seek interpretations that edge it toward generic modern fantasy (which is where you find the themes of all-pantheons-are-equal and belief-creates-reality). One of the long-standing features common to the monotheistic religions is that monotheism is THE TRUTH, and panentheism, pantheism, polytheism, and materialism are, in escalating degrees, wrong. Very shocking to modern sensibilities. That's where the fun can come from. It might even be interesting and go further, picking one particular monotheistic religion to be true, even picking one denomination within that religion. That doesn't mean the world has to be drawn in black and white. It does mean putting interesting wrinkles in celestial politics -- different wrinkles, at least. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:27:42 -0500 (CDT) From: Austin George Loomis Subject: IN> KYD #10 (Marc) [Well, Beth seems to be busy lately (presumably nursing her peculiar back to health), and she said in the intro to the final batch of KtE that she was hoping other people would start doing these, so (in spite of the fact that I haven't specifically heard back from her on my request for permission) here goes nothing (especially insofaras I'm going to feel like a right prat if somebody else's already done this). I'm working on all the remaining official Archangels, but this was the first one I finished...] - - -------------------------------------------------------------------- Know Your Diabolicals (series created by Elizabeth McCoy) A young angel's guide to the Fallen and their masters. #10: As delivered by a (Mercurian) Servitor of Trade (Marc) [probably stationed in England] Bands ===== Balseraphs: The ultimate snake-oil salesmen. Even a Master of Finance can be rooked by these chaps if he's not careful. Djinn: A Hobbesian lot -- nasty, brutish, and short. More concerned with breaking things -- bulls in the china shop. Have shop security (in the form of fellow celestials) keep them out. Calabim: Another violent, insane lot, more interesting in destroying than in dealing. Mind your valuables when they're around. Habbalah: Can send your trading partners into turmoil. Be careful around this lot. Lilim: You might think the deal-making powers of these young ladies would be no match for a Divine Contract, or the Chief's Distinctions. You'd be half-right, I'll give you credit for that. The *real* danger in doing a deal with a Temptress is that you never know when she's going to call in the favour...or what it's going to cost you. If you must negotiate with a Lilim (or, indeed, *any* demon, but especially one of these young ladies), use your Attunements to put the situation on *your* terms. Shedim: Is there anything more vile than stealing some poor mortal's body and driving it into spiritual bankruptcy? I rather think not... Impudites: ...although the way Takers operate comes bloody close. To steal the very Essence out from under people (and the odd careless angel), giving only an illusion of friendship in return? Shut this lot down when you can. Servitors of... =============== Alaemon: Showing your whole hand isn't always prudent, but the level of secrecy this lot like is an outright barrier to honest dealings. And they've a down on Litheroy, who's not a bad sort as Seraphim go. Andrealphus: Lust's Servitors take what God and Eli intended as a free exchange of pleasure and turn it into another means of robbery. And the poncy bastard's working with Nybbas, too. Asmodeus: You're not apt to meet up with one of this lot unless you Trip, in which case you should know that they're not amenable to doing deals. Rather like Dominic, actually, only slightly worse. Interestingly, the Game's higher Distinctions can spot honest and dishonest dealers almost as well as our Word's Mercurians. Baal: Their Superior is surprisingly gentlemanly, given the violence inherent in his Word and embodied in his Servitors. If you can't get them stopped beforehand, salvage what you can when they've gone. Beleth: Rather like Habbalah -- more a psy-ops than a hands-on sort. The Nightmare makers enjoy toying with human minds. When they go after one of your clients, Blandine's lot are useful for security. Belial: Madmen who delight in destruction of everything we hold dear. The importance of good security, from one of the War party for choice, cannot be overstated. Haagenti: A loathsome little pest, who encourages people to buy things they don't even need, or to hoard or waste what they already have. That sort of thing is *decidedly* bad for business. Kobal: A decided enigma. On the one wing, he *is* an Impudite, like Andrealphus and Nybbas, and he's the foster-brother of that voracious mutant Haagenti (among other disreputable friends). On the other wing, he doesn't spend as much time on Earth as most low-Section Superiors. It's almost enough to make one wonder what he's playing at...All I can say is, keep a weather-eye open. Kronos: The Servitors of Fate derive a sadistic glee from turning some promising businessman into a monopolistic robber-baron -- we have them to thank for the 1890s, which began to set in mortals' minds the image of businessmen as pinstriped pirates. Yves, gentleman and scholar that he is, will help you against his opposite number, or his Servitors will at any event, but ask nicely. Malphas: His whole purpose in life is to undermine the trust on which the marketplace depends. Fight this in every way you can. A Divine Contract is a good way to *ensure* trust. Nybbas: I cannot sufficiently stress the degree to which the Media befoul everything they touch. They make art into trash, commerce into robbery, and war into sport. And, as one of the Other Side's own spokesmen once put it, "Provisos of equal time are not served by one side having access to two hundred million people in prime-time while opposing views are provided with a soapbox on the corner." Disgusting from start to end. Saminga: A collection of low-class thugs. Hell's muscle, overly prone to being flexed. Another argument for good shop security. Valefor: It continually baffles me that otherwise intelligent celestials can mistake followers of this jumped-up pickpocket for Servitors of Janus, who is a true gentleman if occasionally eccentric. Oh, I'll grant the superficial similarities, but the differences between them run far too deep. The Wind works only to uproot those who become too inflexible to deal with their fellows. Servitors of Theft take for the sheer joy of taking, and with no regard for the loss they cause their victims. Vapula: This lot have a nasty tendency to sell humans high-tech dreams, only to miss out mention of certain nasty side-effects. And Nybbas got his start as a Servitor of Technology, which marks two points against them all by itself. Lilith: Everything I said about her Daughters goes double for the Mother - -- above all, *never* let yourself get in debt to her if alternatives remain. While she *will* do deals with our side, and we sometimes even come out ahead, keep in mind at all times that she *is* officially a Demon Princess and *does* live in Hell. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:42:45 -0700 (MST) From: shadocat@primenet.com (Jeff Miller) Subject: Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... >> Can a Kyriotate/Shedite possess the *host* of another Ky./Shedite? If so, >> this could lead to some interesting (and bizarre) between the two. > Not, I would think, without kicking the current occupant out; the >way it's handled pretty strongly suggests one host to a vessel at a time, >so I think they'd just tussel over it. (Though a Sheddite wounding a >Kyriotate's host and then kicking him out so that he's left it in worse >condition...) > Would that be simply opposing Will rolls or would they duke it out Celestially? The thing is that if it was just a Will roll, there'd be nothing to keep the loser from hanging around and trying again (and again,...). The winner would have no recourse except to run away and try to find someone to go Celestial to make the loser back off (or go Celestial himself and risk the loser jumping into his host). If they use Celestial combat, can others get involved in the combat? >> There's also another problem with that answer. A K/S becomes a limited >> Celestial detector. (granted they only detect one at a time and the > Technically, but only if they want to go possessing everyone they >meet just to find out. Not very practical, I'd say. > And if they suspect someone and want to risk it, that strikes me >as entirely fair, given that there are lots of other ways to tell... It's not inbalancing in and of itself but it does have to potential for abuse. if >there weren't, Asmodeus's "Humanity" Attunement wouldn't be so exciting. >It DOES bring up the question of what happens if they try to posess a >Servitor of the Game who's using that, though...personally, I think the >Kyriotate should bounce, though, and it may well be a clue, if the GM only >describes it as, ("MAN this guy's got a high will. And he's looking >straight at you and smiling. Nastily.") > Time to exit, stage left. -- Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:42:37 -0700 (MST) From: shadocat@primenet.com (Jeff Miller) Subject: Re: IN> Questions: Cosmology and pantheistic religions >> tragedy than glorious epic to most of the pantheons, I'd think, and >> Heaven's likely a bit embarassed about them following Uriel's recall.) > I think a lot of it is just the note that having someone >specifically going around killing them entails acknowledging their >validity...which, as I said, I personally think would tend to call them >back to existance, over and over. Gives Uriel job security, but... > Hmmmm..... If belief ir even just thinking about them *can* create "gods" in the Marches then I can see the posibility of some Cthuloid beings in Beleth's realm. >> True. Though if some survived, there's some interesting possibilities - >> I'm currently thinking of a group of war gods of various pantheons >> conspiring to try to take back the Earth... > Heh...I like that...though enough of the war gods were of the kind >of stupid variety that they'd have gone down fighting. Some of the >craftier ones may well have gotten away, though. (Say, Ares is >gone..Athena's probably playing chess with Odin.) > I like this (a lot). >> > - Gods representing "good" things, may have been let free. >> Maybe. Then again, I wonder if Uriel would have been that generous. I > I wouldn't so much even go "Maybe" on this; they seem the least >likely, I would think that these would be a primary target since they would show that it is even *possible* to be good if you are not under Gods dominion. That would be an even greater threat to Uriel's purity than an evil god. finding Beleth distasteful. Possibly hoping Uriel would spare >them, they may well have presented themselves to him...and I agree with >you, I can't see the Archangel of Purity as the compromising sort. (The >Archangel of Kinda Purity just doesn't work.) Unless, as you suggest, >there may have been some way for them to accept `demotion' to Angels... > There is some support for this though. Several of the Catholic saints were pagen gods before they were consumed. In fact, this happened in most religions. Panthions generally increased as the socities that believed in them conquered societies of other religions. It's possible that by Uriel's physically killing a diety and then intruducing the belief that the diety is some saint or angel, when that diety reforms it will be in the modified form of the saint or angel. > Though, somewhat in line with your "Gods of War Society" thought, >there's the amusing idea of them banding together in patchwork >pantheons...(Odin watching over his own Sif, Isis and Bast, Venus, Hades, >and Legba..) > I like this. I wonder just what Bast would have to slay to allow the other gods to once again emerge into the human realm.... -- Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 19:33:01 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Re: your mail On Wed, 28 May 1997 09:47:52 -0400, "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" wrote: >> As a rule, any being with a Corporeal form is immune to Celestial damage. > > Yup. That's pretty much the case. However that is a >_general_ rule, not a universal one. There may be very special >circumstances where a being with a Corporeal form might take >Celestial damage. I'm not saying that I know of such a case as >of right now, but it's possible in the future. Calabim of Andrealphus are a current exception, though they cannot cause the loss of Forces, just soul hits. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 14:58:33 -0500 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> KYD #10 (Marc) good work, Mr. Loomis. i especially liked the inclusion of possible AA allies and helpful choirs in dealing with the various Diabolicals. The British accent lended it a flavor all its own, while the format preserved the feeling of the original--familiar, but spiced differently. Garlic bread instead of whole wheat, so to speak. consider yourself officially "atta' boy"-ed. tom t. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 16:07:59 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Words and changing sides At 8:12 PM -0700 5/13/97, Christopher Paul wrote: >OK, this is boosted from another thread, but I find it engaging enough to >pull from the weave: > >1) What is the relationship between celestials, their words, the >symphony, and which side they are on? Generally, angelic Words tend to be more metaphorical -- Flowers encompasses things like peace and joy, for instance -- while demonic Words are more literal -- Fire is destructive fire for Belial, and can be the fire of passion for Gabriel, *or* the fires of vengeance... There is some hint that having the *exact* same Word as an "opposite number" may be bad -- only Fire is duplicated precisely, and both Gaby and Belial are loopy as loons, IMO. In all other cases, there are subtleties: Baal is "the War," for instance, while Michael is "War;" Jean is "Lightning," where Vapula is "Technology." >2) When an Angel is cast out (but doesn't fall) do they lose their >word? Kicked out, but unfallen? Hm. I don't know. Outcasts lose the ability to access their divine rites, IIRC, so I would assume that they also lose most (if not all) of their ability to access the Power of their Word. >(This one is actually important to me, as I can think of some pretty >cool senarios involving word-bound outcasts). Okay, so run it your way. > If a word-bound angel did manage to fall and keep their word, >Lucifer might well leave it to them, both as a lasting reminder of the >power of corruption, and because a celestial who has had a word is more >experienced in matters dealing with that word, both naturally and >selfishly. Or Lucifer might re-grant a Word, for the above reasons... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:23:15 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Fluff: A Practical Demonstration... Three celestials -- a Seraph, an Elohite, and a rather confused Lilim ("I'm only Renegade if they catch me") have come into possession (so to speak) of a newly-created Soldier of Fire... They are discussing how to explain things. Lilim: "One of us is probably going to have to go celestial before she believes..." Elohite: "She'll probably think [the Seraph] is a space alien." Lilim: "[The Seraph] *is* a space alien. Sort of." Seraph: Lilim: "Well, it can't be me -- I look like a little green martian. With horns." Elohite: "And I look like something out of _Close Encounters_." Lilim: "Looks like it's back to [the Seraph] after all." Earlier, there was a bit of an "Odd Couple" scene, where-in the Seraph and the Lilim discussed how to cook pizza. In the Seraph's apartment. With no bakeware. ("Can't we just put it in?" "No, it would melt through the metal thingy, and the cardboard would catch fire. Here, you read this -- see? Says 'put on baking sheet,' right? Anything untrue about that?" "There are other options..." "Oh?" "Don't ask me! I just know there are other options!" "Oh.") They finally ordered takeout. The Lilim made another shopping list: "Cookware -- baking sheet, pans, etc." "Microwave" "More toilet paper" "Cookbook" "*Beginner's* cookbook." The Seraph (of Creation serving Destiny): "I think I am going to suggest that there be some more *practical* courses, as well as the philosophical ones." The commentary about "Odd Couples" sparked some notions about Silly Celestial Sitcoms. Odd Couples: angel and demon, of course (each unknowing of the other's actual nature?). Any pair of "conflicting" Bands/Choirs. Celestial and Mundane. For those tough cases: "Three Servitors of Judgment and a Gremlin." Put an Ofanite in a child-vessel, and you have the makings for a celestial version of _The Ransom of Red Chief_... (Obviously an Ofanite of Fire, punishing the kidnappers in a most unique way.) There's got to be something possible to mangle "The Brady Bunch," but I'm blanking on what... Probably out of self defense. These are the sorts of things one comes up with while coming down with the flu... d:O:p (Sick Kyriotate...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:13:30 EST From: "PERRY M. LLOYD" Subject: IN> Needs and Perception Hey, I've got two questions that have been eating at me for a while and I was wondering if anyone might be able to answer them. (1) On Vampires and Needs On pg 193 it says on the subject of vampires: "Add the Discord of Vulnerability/3 (Sunlight) and at least 3 levels of a Need (such as blood). If the vampire can satisfy his Need everyday before sunset, he'll regenerate 1 Essence at at nightfall." So, does this mean that vampires are expected to run around during the daylight hours in spite of their Vulnerability to Sunlight in order to satisfy their need? Urk, sucks to be a vampire... (2) On Perception Human versus Celestial Would a human with Perception of 6 be just as sensitive to the symphony as a Celestial with the same rating? Would a Celestial with a Perception of 3 be just as blind as a human with the same rating? Perry M. Lloyd ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 09:22:28 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Question In reply to: > Hello? Are we communicating here? The _geasa_ have > NOT BEEN CHANGED OR QUALIFIED. Lilith still has the option > of breaking her promise and using them whatever the hell way > she wants to. She CHOOSES not to do so. There is nothing > more binding on her than a verbal agreement between her and > this particular Lilim in my campaign. I repeat, the geasa > themselves have not been qualified in any way. Someone's getting touchy here *grin*. Relax, John, I'm merely presenting the opposite viewpoint so that as the case is argued back and forwards we can get a clearer picture of how it should work. Please don't take it too personally. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:46:37 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> freberg: STAN FREBERG HERE (1996) (fwd) >From: Russ Collins >To: arcangel@io.com And, copyright intact, I forward it along... A Tether, perhaps? To Valefor? Or to Saminga? >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 18:51:06 +0500 >From: leewithers@mail.tcfn.org >Reply-To: freberg@freberg.wwc.edu >To: pettma@wwc.edu >Subject: freberg: STAN FREBERG HERE (1996) > > >"GET YOUR KICKS ON ROUTE 666? _FORGET_ IT!" >(Prg. #155-96, Air 8-2-96) > > Stan Freberg here. There's a questionable highway running through >New Mexico--Highway 666! WHOA, too Satanic a number for _me!_ Also for >the Navajos, who say too many accidents and even murders have occurred >on this highway. I wouldn't doubt it. More, after this. [SPOT BREAK] > > Freberg again. I was telling you about this ill-numbered highway >that runs through New Mexico. Jim Carlton, a reporter with The Wall >Street Journal, reports that the highway is notorious for its numerous >accidents involving drunken drivers, deaths of pedestrians, dumped >bodies, and even a mad trucker whom police say runs people over on >purpose. Of _course_--the highway's named "666"! > > It's also trouble for the Navajos, because in their traditional >belief, the number 6, or any combination of it, is evil. Hey, as a >_preacher's_ kid, I'm not going anywhere _near_ a highway named "666"! >Christians believe that "666" symbolizes the "mark of the beast," an >anti-Christ, prophesized in the Biblical book of Revelation. Authorities >in London have dropped "666" from license plates, after motorists >complained it contributed to accidents. And former President Reagan and >his wife Nancy changed the address of their new home from "666" to >"668." > > The Navajos have petitioned the state to re-number the highway. In >the meantime, a New Mexico road engineer may have the answer. > > "Just turn all the signs upside down," he says. "Then we'll have >'999'." > > Stan Freberg here. >(c)1996, Freberg, Ltd. (but not very)/Dist. by Dick Brescia Associates. > > > >***** >This mailing list is part of "The World's Most Official Unofficial Stan Freberg >Page" (http://www.southern.edu/people/eahullqu/freberg/, mirrored at >http://freberg.wwc.edu/). Visit the sites to find "Stan Freberg Here" >transcripts, archives of this mailing list, Freberg sound clips and pictures, >and more. > >For help with this mailing list, send email to lists@freberg.wwc.edu with the >word "help" as the body of the message or write to lists-owner@freberg.wwc.edu. > - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:57:20 -0500 (CDT) From: Austin George Loomis Subject: Re: IN> The White Witch as Superior On Wed, 28 May 1997, at 12:34:23 CDT, Earl Wajenberg wrote: [...] >[Jumps up and down in seat excitedly and waves hand to be called on.] > To paraphrase something Scott Johnson once said to me: "And would Mr. Wajenberg like to share his theory with the class? Come come, I hope you brought enough theory for everyone..." >Here's an idea: In a throw-away line, in "That Hideous Strength," >Ransom remarks that each of the great planetary oyeresu has an >"ambassador" spirit present on each of the other planets. Thus >"there is a terrestrial as well as a celestial Venus" etc. > A line so throwaway that I seem to have missed it when looking through the book for Virtrilbia's name. Then again, I was mostly looking at the late part, after Merlin's meeting with Ransom. I do, however, have vague memories of mentions of the terrestrial spirits after the defeat of NICE. >I like your identifications, but how about if those archangels are >the ambassadors of the extraterrestrial spirits? Perelandra, >Virtrilbia, Malacandra, etc., would then be denizens of those upper >reaches of Heaven that the book hints at but leaves uncharted. > Ah. Indeed. Certainly gives a new meaning to "Deep Heaven," doesn't it? >Of course, there are lots more archangels than planets, but not >every archangel needs to be a plantary ambassador. Or, if one >insists, there are plenty of moons, asteroids, and comets... > Hey, Scott -- which Archangel is attached to Comet Kohoutek? (Sorry -- obscure private joke. I occasionally embarrass Scott by gushing over his fanfic-in-progress _Bishoujo Senshi Sailor Comet Kohoutek_. Though, getting this back on topic, I'm awaiting _Night Music_ partly for my own curiosity and partly because the expanded rules on Soldiers will make it possible for my favorite penguin to do that IN writeup on Magical Girls he mentioned back around the time IN ANIME was announced...) >Earl Wajenberg > Austin George "If he was serious about it, that is" Loomis ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 19:32:21 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Question At 3:59 PM +0000 5/27/97, Leathal Weapon wrote: >Just a quick comment on 'Qualified Geasa'. John Karakash said that he >wasn't sure that they even existed, but I'd just like to point out >that his own PBEM game has a lilim with qualified geasa. Elizabeth >McCoy's Lilim states in her character profile that she has level 6 >geases to Lilith (instead of level 3) on the proviso that they >wouldn't be traded to certain Demon Princes. No, that's Uri, not Serah -- my "Gray" (i.e., not yet dissonant Renegade) Lilim. Wrong game. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 19:30:31 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Questions At 3:33 PM -0400 5/25/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >> A very honorable Celestial might willingly *accept* a Geas in such a >> situation, as a way of discharging the Debt, but they might also put >> qualifiers onto it, thus increasing the level of the Geas. "Nothing that >> causes me dissonance or goes directly against my superior" certainly seems >> like a good qualifier, and I'd rule it as imposing an extra level of Geas. >> If she punted the Perception roll earlier, though, she's just SOL on >> *forcing* a Geas onto him, though, I'd say. > > I'm not sure if 'qualified' Geasa even exist. This removes >the delicious sense of _not knowing_ what you will be asked to do >and thereby cheapens the drama that a Lilim (or anyone) might be >drawn in to by conflicting responsibilities. Oh, why wouldn't they come in both flavors? Qualified ones are just *bigger*, since they're less useful. ("Right, so this would normally be just a month of your time, but since you're going to quibble about not doing anything dissonant to you, oh, let's say six months, shall we?") This would, of course, only apply to a Geas worked out "in person," with both sides knowing what was going on. If you're doing the Perception deal, and fulfill the Need, *then* there's that "not knowing" sense... And with those little Geas/1's running around the Lilim community, they probably don't matter enough to even think of qualifying 'em. (Besides, it's probably rude for you to mistrust your sisters that way!) And, finally, even with qualified Geasa, you can still get sucked into conflicts... "Don't mess with my attuned without my permission." "That Cherub's attuned -- take her out, and don't slip anything of our plans to the Cherub." Especially if some Geasa are qualified and others aren't. At 12:42 AM -0600 5/28/97, Kingsley Lintz wrote: >> Or hand it over to Mom, perhaps? "Hello, dear, one of my Daughters >> saved your Malakite hide." > Evil. Evil, evil, evil. Thank you. I like being evil sometimes. (I'll address Moriah's stuff later, off-line, when I can take my time and not worry so much about having the flu...) >But heck, there's lots of people a Lilim >could potentially pass the favor to...Asmodeus, if she's feeling nice. >("Don't worry, you're going to -like- this job..")..maybe Dominic if she's >not. ("You let yourself become indebted to WHAT?") I was mostly thinking of the concept of not being able to slip Lilith's Geas... >> >perhaps she'd be willing to accept a payment of Essence in order >> >to cancel the Geas? (Gads... I'm getting a vision of monthly payments >> >here, kind of like a car note.) >> Hee hee hee... I like it. > Keep it monthly; why cancel the Geas? ("I'd like you to do -this- >for me. Oh, you really don't like that? Well, if you really want, I'll >take some Essence and let it go for now.." [time passes] "Okay, I'd like >you to do -this- for me. Oh? Well, there's always our usual >arrangement.." Just keep it hanging over them until they cave in and >accept one..) Ah, blackmail. Hmmm... Yeah, that could work. Very nice and evil... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 19:58:53 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Needs and Perception At 6:13 PM -0500 5/28/97, PERRY M. LLOYD wrote: > (1) On Vampires and Needs > On pg 193 it says on the subject of vampires: > "Add the Discord of Vulnerability/3 (Sunlight) and at least 3 > levels of a Need (such as blood). If the vampire can satisfy his > Need everyday before sunset, he'll regenerate 1 Essence at > at nightfall." > > So, does this mean that vampires are expected to run around > during the daylight hours in spite of their Vulnerability to > Sunlight in order to satisfy their need? Urk, sucks to be a > vampire... Every day, before sunset, where "day" begins at nightfall and ends at the next dusk -- so he has to get his blood that night, or he won't get any essence the *following* sunset. Yeah, it looked weird to me, too, but then I substituted in "24 hours" for day and it worked better... > (2) On Perception Human versus Celestial > Would a human with Perception of 6 be just as sensitive to the > symphony as a Celestial with the same rating? Would a Celestial > with a Perception of 3 be just as blind as a human with the > same rating? Yes. Yes. Though there may be some implication somewhere that mundanes just aren't used to sensing the Symphony at all anyway, so they don't do it, even if they're high-perception. I think it's more fun to do it the other way. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 19:35:14 -0500 (CDT) From: Scott Shorter Subject: IN> IN -> GURPS conversion How does GURPS In Nomine handle Ethereal Hits? advTHANKSance, Scott ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:05:37 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Celestial Outcasts Renegades can go Celestial, but Outcasts can't. (p. 53, 3rd paragraph under "The Celestial -- Heaven and Hell") Why is this? If an Outcast Falls entirely, what happens to his Heart? Does it shatter then, or only when a demonic Heart is crafted for him? Is he locatable by his Heart till then? Can he go celestial now, being, essentially, a Heartless demon (the same as a Free Lilim or a Renegade who shattered his own Heart before running)? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 20:48:39 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Re: Remnant Will & Perception At 1:49 PM -0400 5/27/97, gibsonc@nku.edu wrote: >if a celestial reaches 0 celestial forces he becomes a remnant. Does this >mean he has a will and perceoption of zero? Unless he'd bought up his characteristics (but not his Forces), then yes. He notices only very obvious things, and can be talked into anything. On the plus side, celestial resonances no longer affect him. >is there no way a human can take celestial damage? Calabim of Lust, and possibly other trickery... But I think that's the only way currently. I'd have to go through and scan the Attunements again, like I did for "Spotting Celestials." And today, I have the flu. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 20:55:05 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Hebrew grammar At 3:30 PM -0400 5/25/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >NON-CANON: > I pretty much use this system (though I draw the line >at Lilim... I _like_ Lilim to be both plural and singular.) >though sometimes I slip. I still think that 'sheddite' sounds >like a processed cheese food, though. ;) I think that's "Cheddite," not sheddite. Unless you mean processed blue-cheese food, in which case I will agree with you. Blue Cheese gives dairy products a bad name... };) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 20:50:07 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> The Characteristic of Perception At 1:10 PM -0500 5/27/97, PERRY M. LLOYD wrote: >PG 35 >"Perception is a rating of how well a characters processes his sensory >imput in all three realms, as well as how sensitive he is to the >fluctuations of the Symphony at large." > >My question is this, if a human has 5 forces, 2 of which happen to be >Celestial,and he has a Will of 4 and a perception of 4, would he perceive the >symphony as well as a celestial with 3 celestial forces, 8 of which are >Will and 4 of which are Perception? Yes. (Check out Karakash's game -- http://www.io.com/~wileyc/nomine/game.html -- and observe the Kyrio of Jean with the Perception of 4, trying to find a cat. Doesn't work very well, but fortunately he's got a friend with a much higher perception to point them out to him. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:39:59 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) At 3:57 PM -0400 5/24/97, Moriah - Steve Jackson Games wrote: >>Date: Thu, 22 May 97 14:38 EDT >>From: Walter Milliken >>Subject: Re: IN> Redemption for Lilim? >> >>It seems to me than Lilim are perhaps a little more likely to go for >>voluntary Redemption than the average demon -- their intrinsic nature >>seems to be a bit less "evil", though they *are* supposed to partake of >>their mother's selfishness. This seems most likely with the "Free" >>Lilim. "Why can't I work for the Other Side if I want? Aren't I >>supposed to be *free*?" > > Ahhh, the "Lilim are the 'good' diabolicals" position. They're certainly fun... Just look at K.K.... > Just for the sake of argument (and sending Beth into a raging fury ;> ), That's okay, I'll just play Lilim's Advocate... >let's look at some of the reasons why Lilim are demons and what forces keep >them from redemption: > > 1) While Lilith has the Word of Freedom, Lilith has been granted status as >a Demon Princess. She doesn't serve Lucifer out of whim. She furthers the >Word of Freedom, not for good, but for Lucifer's purposes. This isn't the >'good Freedom' of civil rights and self-determination; this is the 'evil >Freedom' of anarchy and licentiousness. Those Lilim who serve Lilith >shouldn't forget this. Error: look at Lilith's Rites and Invocation modifiers. While Lucifer and the Princes may *want* Lilith to promote Anarchy, she does *not* exclude "good" freedom. For instance: spend an hour encouraging people to: Resist the Government [ambigious; depends on government] Question Authority [also ambigious; depends on the Authority] Quit Their Jobs [I tell the people at AGIS to do this all the time] or Leave One-Sided Relationships [is there *any* way to make this "Evil"?] Or: Free a human from physical bondage. [This could be a convicted criminal -- or a kidnap victim. Ambigious.] Or: Destroy, physically or socially, a mortal enemy of freedom. [This could be good -- a slave-camp overseer, for instance -- or arguable, if the target was Dominic... ;-) ] Her Invocation modifiers... a pair of broken handcuffs [ambigious; a criminal's? justly accused?] a piece of the Berlin Wall [you're saying that the fall of the Wall was for *evil*, Moriah?] a caged creature set free [ambigious, depends on circumstances] a battlefield where a *tyrant* fell [emphasis mine] a human prisoner set free [guilt or innocence left to the discretion of the invoker, presumably] Overthrowing a government -- any government [again, could be good, could be bad] Lilith obviously takes her Word to mean what she feels it should mean at the time -- and sometimes, *often* apparently, it has the more "angelic" metaphoric meaning of the overthrowing of tyranny. How does she get away with this? Good question. Obviously she does enough "evil" freedom to keep them from deciding that the supply of Lilim isn't worth keeping her around. Maybe she's still got a fling going with Lucifer himself, and he's humoring her. Who knows? But she's obviously getting away with *something*... > 2) While Lilith's Word is Freedom, which may make her daughters more prone >to shrug off the shackles of servitude to Lucifer -- it is equally likely to >make them shy away from servitude toward God, let alone an archangel. This is true, very very true. And that makes them vunerable to Asmodeus' Servitors (and/or Dominic's, and/or Laurences, etc.); nobody ever said that Freedom was a low-risk proposition. The survival rate of such overly-free spirits is very low. Why do you think the Brights are so rare? First, you have to lose the selfish, *and* then the reluctance to bind, *and* you have to manage to avoid having your debts called in by The Wrong People. Nobody said it would be easy. > 3) While Lilith's Word is Freedom, many of the Lilim serve other Princes. >A Lilim of Lust is just as corrupt as an Impudite of Lust. Lilim, in and of >themselves are not oriented to 'Freedom' -- their 'Mother' is. Somewhat of a semantic quibble here -- "Each Lilim, more than any other demon, wants to be completely free, answering to no one." That they give up on this doesn't mean they're not still *oriented* towards it. Just that they'd have to do more backstabbing that it's usually worth to get there, once they've gone and Bound themselves... They are, in general, quite corrupt, sure -- but it's easier to rationalize a Lilim going non-dissonantly Renegade (i.e., "gray" in angel-slang) than, say, a Shedite. >And when >they're not serving their Mother, they're not that connected to Freedom, >either the good or bad kind. The Lilim are 'The Tempters', *not* the >'Freedom Fighters'. Details, details. So what are *Bright* Lils? Still Tempters? > 4) Even though some Lilim may be serving 'Freedom', their Resonance is >still toward inflicting Geasa. Geasa are not *freely* negotiated contracts; >they are ways to impose servitude on others. This is not very good sign of >being committed to the good kind of Freedom. It depends on whether the Lilim treats it as a "You will do this or else," or whether she negotiates it openly, such as Marc's Divine Contract Servitor Attunement. There is nothing inherently "evil" about holding someone to a promise. It is the circumstances that make this "evil" or not... If a Bright Lilim of Fire bound a deadbeat parent into paying the child support, would that be "evil"? If *any* Lilim did this, would it be "evil"? Also, they cannot invoke the Geas until they have traded something of value to the person who needed it. Compare with the Seraphim of Trade, who come at things from the opposite end, but with similar results (especially if they also have Divine Contract!). > 5) The Lilim themselves get caught in their own web of inflicting Geasa >and trading Geasa on themselves. They wind up owing the wrong kind of people >and being forced to do evil. Yup. Tough life, being a Lilim. It gets so *easy* just to promise something... (Even my "gray" Renegade hit a state where it was easier to go favor-trading than not. Very fascinating roleplaying there, since she's trying to be totally free...) Lots of tragedy potential, really -- dragging them down when they're trying to get Redeemable, or teetering on the cusp. I *like* tormenting my characters! >>On a related note, I've been thinking a bit about "gray" characters in >>general -- ones who don't belong to either side entirely. Besides Free >>Lilim, there is also the case of Habbalah who've taken a 111 "lashback" >>on the Emptiness emotion. They're supposedly no longer deluded about >>their nature (and no longer evil?). > > Until they swear their allegiance to an Archangel, they are Renegades. >They may call themselves 'gray', but they are now on Asmodeus'/Dominic's hit >list. Hope they enjoy their freedom -- for as long as they live. ;> If they're not dissonant, they aren't Renegades in the sense of p. 30. They *are* "insufficiently devoted to Evil," and therefore Renegades in Asmodeus' mind, but in mentality, they are more complex than the p. 30 thumbnail sketch... (Also, a "Gray" (i.e., "they haven't caught me yet, so I'm not Renegade") Lilim would not necessarily have lost access to her Mother's Rites -- and *anyone* can summon Lilith if they wanna make a deal...) Playing a morally ambigious character can be a fun thing, and if you can rationalize demons who think they can do more "good" as demons (Habbalah who are relieved of their delusion, Lilim who are caught in the web of Geasa and don't dare even try for Redemption so long as they owe favors darkside, etc.), then why not? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #186 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.