From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu May 29 14:24:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA04870 for ; Thu, 29 May 1997 14:24:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA18898 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 29 May 1997 13:29:37 -0500 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 13:29:37 -0500 Message-Id: <199705291829.NAA18898@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #187 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, May 29 1997 Volume 01 : Number 187 In this digest: Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Question Re: IN> celestial breeding Re: IN> IN -> GURPS conversion Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... IN> Bork! IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) Re: IN> Questions: Cosmology and pantheistic religions Re: IN> Bork! Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) Re: IN> Beginning Bright Lilim Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Questions Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... Re:IN> Lilim Resonance Question Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Questions Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) Re: IN> Re: your mail Re: IN> Needs and Perception [none] Re: IN> KYD #10 (Marc) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:01:57 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Question > No, that's Uri, not Serah -- my "Gray" (i.e., not yet dissonant > Renegade) Lilim. Wrong game. Oops. My apologies *bows* Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:14:37 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> celestial breeding At 12:55 PM -0400 5/26/97, Kabael wrote: >Now my question is Do angels breed, can they breed, if not, how do they >reproduce. This is not clear yet, but has been discussed on the list previously. Check out the digests (accessible via the web-page: http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/ ) from a month or two back (IIRC), and you'll get all the stuff. Some of the basics that I remember at the moment were: Concept of Relievers/Imps&Gremlins as celestial offspring Requiring the "parent(s)" to donate Forces to create offspring, and/or mega amounts of Essence. It's even more difficult to breed on the corporeal realm; the secret may even be lost with the Grigori. >BTW, has anyone done any work of Nephilim or the Grigori. Guy by the name of Derek Pearcy, presumably... ;-) We'll probably see both in a supplement book eventually. In canon, angels are created by their Superiors -- p. 108, just under the Universal Invocation Modifiers box. (If it's universal, why's it only angel-blue, instead of the amalgamated color?) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:57:46 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> IN -> GURPS conversion At 7:35 PM -0500 5/28/97, Scott Shorter wrote: >How does GURPS In Nomine handle Ethereal Hits? ftp://ftp.sjgames.com/pub/sjgames/in-nomine/ ought to provide you the answer... Or http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/gurps/ if you don't mind frames. If not, just fake it -- use the old rules from IN, instead. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:46:12 EST From: "PERRY M. LLOYD" Subject: Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... >> Can a Kyriotate/Shedite possess the *host* of another Ky./Shedite? If so, >> this could lead to some interesting (and bizarre) between the two. > Not, I would think, without kicking the current occupant out; the >way it's handled pretty strongly suggests one host to a vessel at a time, >so I think they'd just tussel over it. (Though a Sheddite wounding a >Kyriotate's host and then kicking him out so that he's left it in worse >condition...) > >> There's also another problem with that answer. A K/S becomes a limited >> Celestial detector. (granted they only detect one at a time and the > Technically, but only if they want to go possessing everyone they >meet just to find out. Not very practical, I'd say. > And if they suspect someone and want to risk it, that strikes me >as entirely fair, given that there are lots of other ways to tell...if >there weren't, Asmodeus's "Humanity" Attunement wouldn't be so exciting. >It DOES bring up the question of what happens if they try to posess a >Servitor of the Game who's using that, though...personally, I think the >Kyriotate should bounce, though, and it may well be a clue, if the GM only >describes it as, ("MAN this guy's got a high will. And he's looking >straight at you and smiling. Nastily.") > About Kyiotates leaving their hosts in at least as good condition as when they found it... if the host is unaware of what the celestial is doing in his body, when he finally comes to after a few days of doing whatever with NO clue what the hell happened to three days of his life, how could the Kyrio possibly leave the befuddled host in good condition if the host is confused as all hell? "While possessed, the host consciousness roams the Marches and will have no memory of the events which occured during the divine takeover." pg 101 Wouldn't that be distressing to "wake up out of a dream, be missing two or so days of your life, and have other people telling you all the things you did? Perhaps we should politely IGNORE this fact, but... PML ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 20:43:58 -0700 From: Hollis McCray Subject: IN> Bork! I haven't written up that Mercurian of Eli yet(Keep forgetting), but I have some other things First, a book(yum!). "Sympathy for the Devil" by Holly Lisle. A woman convinces God to give all those in Hell a chance to repent. So he lets some demons loose in North Carolina. Much Fun. Second, I need some help. A new player wants to create a Bright Lilim as a starting character. From what I read in the book, it doesn's seem possible. Is it possible, and if so, how? Help! Hollis McCray Madman at Large email: Mccrayh@yoda.cochise.cc.az.us "No matter where you go, there you are." - -Buckaroo Banzai ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 00:35:14 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) >>>Error: look at Lilith's Rites and Invocation modifiers. While Lucifer and the Princes may *want* Lilith to promote Anarchy, she does *not* exclude "good" freedom.<<< Right...she advocates ALL freedom, regardless of whether it's good or not. Lilith may not be truly "Evil" with a capital E, in the sense of being devoted to Hell's supremacy and Heaven's downfall. She is out for herself, and sides with Hell because it's convenient. But that makes her just as evil as a human Soldier of Hell who is not inherently diabolical, but chooses to serve the forces of darkness. And moreso, because she is a celestial being and has chosen to expand Hell's influence. She COULD choose to side with Heaven, or if she really wanted to, stay out of the War completely (a lot of the pagan gods are doing this.) But she's not just a reluctant participant who was forced to join Lucifer. She's an active participant in the War (no matter how she rationalizes it) who CHOSE to side with Hell. Most of the Princes can promote "good" things to suit their purposes....Haagenti likes fine cuisine as well as artery-clogging fast food, Vapula likes ALL technology, and some of his inventions may actually be beneficial at times, but he doesn't really care what the results are. One might argue that if Vapula had his choice, he'd just invent indiscriminately, and that it's only the demands of Lucifer that compel him to devote more effort to "evil" inventions than any other. In that respect, he's no more Evil than Lilith. Nybbas may promote the worst aspects of modern media, but you can make a strong argument that television has done a lot of good things for society as well. Every Prince has his own reasons for opposing Heaven, some of them believe they're in the "right". But they are all ultimately acting out of selfishness and spite, like Lilith. >>>Resist the Government [ambigious; depends on government] And she doesn't care what government. >>>Question Authority [also ambigious; depends on the Authority] She doesn't care what authority. >>>Quit Their Jobs [I tell the people at AGIS to do this all the time] Lilith says "Quit your job", whether or not quitting their job will inconvenience or devastate coworkers, friends, family members, etc.... >>>Leave One-Sided Relationships [is there *any* way to make this "Evil"?] Possibly. And Lilith wouldn't care about other issues like children, the health of both people in the relationship, finances, etc. "Leave now! Leave your children behind, they're just anchors tying you down!" >>>Or: Free a human from physical bondage. [This could be a convicted criminal -- or a kidnap victim. Ambigious.] And she doesn't care which. >>>Or: Destroy, physically or socially, a mortal enemy of freedom. [This could be good -- a slave-camp overseer, for instance -- or arguable, if the target was Dominic... ;-) ] And she doesn't care which. >>>Lilith obviously takes her Word to mean what she feels it should mean at the time -- and sometimes, *often* apparently, it has the more "angelic" metaphoric meaning of the overthrowing of tyranny.<<< Only because tyranny is common....but the point is, Lilith doesn't make ANY value judgments. She advocates freedom for completely selfish reasons, without regard for anyone else. She isn't advocating freedom because she wants mankind to be free of unjust restraints, she wants mankind to be free of ALL restraints, including those that are necessary for a healthy society. >>>Somewhat of a semantic quibble here -- "Each Lilim, more than any other demon, wants to be completely free, answering to no one." That they give up on this doesn't mean they're not still *oriented* towards it. Just that they'd have to do more backstabbing that it's usually worth to get there, once they've gone and Bound themselves...<<< They are devoted to freedom for *themselves*, that doesn't mean they really care about anyone else's freedom. (Their Resonance, in fact, is designed to restrict the freedom of others!) >>>If they're not dissonant, they aren't Renegades in the sense of p. 30. They *are* "insufficiently devoted to Evil," and therefore Renegades in Asmodeus' mind, but in mentality, they are more complex than the p. 30 thumbnail sketch...<<< Actually, the ONLY technical requirement to be a Renegade is for your Prince and/or Asmodeus to regard you as such. Renegades aren't like Outcasts, who suffer a physical change to reflect their status. An Outcast is an angel who has Fallen partway. A Renegade is just a demon who's on the outs with his Prince. So you can be a non-dissonant Renegade. (You can also be a non-dissonant Outcast, in fact.) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 00:58:15 -0400 From: Donnellys Subject: Re: IN> Questions: Cosmology and pantheistic religions > >> tragedy than glorious epic to most of the pantheons, I'd think, and > >> Heaven's likely a bit embarassed about them following Uriel's recall.) > > I think a lot of it is just the note that having someone > >specifically going around killing them entails acknowledging their > >validity...which, as I said, I personally think would tend to call them > >back to existance, over and over. Gives Uriel job security, but... > Hmmmm..... > If belief ir even just thinking about them *can* create "gods" in the > Marches then I can see the posibility of some Cthuloid beings in Beleth's realm. Another thought, which may be completely off base (I am a new add on here). When satan leave, with a third of the host, did all that break with heaven go with him? Could some have broken and retreated into border realms, claiming independence, in regions of that lands of nightmares set up before its borders were set, and lost in the shadowed realms. Initially satan hunted them down, one by one, and many of the less gifted ones fell, but a few remained, hiding, locking themselves off from reality in an attempt to hide from the Dark one. A few have some connection on earth (sorcerers experimenting with spells (songs) which, in their imperfection reach out to these peverse souls) and due to earlier isolation have been molded into Lovecraftian beasts. They are also great tools for powerful and recent renegades. Heaven figured all the folks who left went to hell, and satan's mostly given up on finding the survivors, but a devil working in the area could try to release them to remove their pursuers... Sean Donnelly ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 00:14:25 -0500 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> Bork! hey, madman! just a suggestion, TIOLI {take it or leave it}: don't you bust a braincell justifying the mechanics of this--let the player do the brainsweat. if you like what they say and they can justify it game-mechanically to you, AND if you like the idea of this character running around in your game, then let them play! it's SJG's rules, but it is YOUR game--enjoy! do what you want to do and invoke the Golden Rule if anyone questions you: "if you don't like a rule, throw it out!" tom timberlake ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 08:50:04 +0300 (EET DST) From: Tapio Erola Subject: Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) > Only because tyranny is common....but the point is, Lilith doesn't make ANY > value judgments. She advocates freedom for completely selfish reasons, > without regard for anyone else. She isn't advocating freedom because she > wants mankind to be free of unjust restraints, she wants mankind to be free > of ALL restraints, including those that are necessary for a healthy > society. Nope. She wants them to be free of _non-voluntary_ restraints. Remember, she deals in favors and she is _very_ likely to honor her own debt which is a form of restraint... > They are devoted to freedom for *themselves*, that doesn't mean they really > care about anyone else's freedom. (Their Resonance, in fact, is designed to > restrict the freedom of others!) Nope. It is designed to _enforce_ a relatively fair deal. > Actually, the ONLY technical requirement to be a Renegade is for your > Prince and/or Asmodeus to regard you as such. Renegades aren't like > Outcasts, who suffer a physical change to reflect their status. An Outcast > is an angel who has Fallen partway. A Renegade is just a demon who's on the > outs with his Prince. So you can be a non-dissonant Renegade. (You can also > be a non-dissonant Outcast, in fact.) Yep. Of course. However, there is a lilim principle on this one. "Don't Get Caught!" Works wonderfully. Tapio Erola txr@paju.oulu.fi (No mail to txr@sliver.oulu.fi please) May you come to attention of your superior. -- An old chinese curse ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 23:56:54 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Beginning Bright Lilim > Second, I need some help. A new player wants to create a Bright Lilim as a > starting character. From what I read in the book, it doesn's seem possible. > Is it possible, and if so, how? Um, not to steal from a certain sneaker commercial, but I think you kind of..just do it. Create the Lilim per normal, figure out who she HAD served (because the Attunements, if I remember right, don't go away - once you're Attuned, you get to stay that way forever), or, of course, if she'd been a Free Lilim from the beginning...and in either case, don't forget her assorted Geasa. Then just work out the story on how she got in touch with Heaven and who, if anyone specific, she's working for Up There; probably assign at least a couple of her Geasa to Archangles. (You know - a level 5 Geas owed to Laurence for not killing her the instant he saw her, another to Dominic for not killing her the instant he saw her, maybe one to Jordi for not killing her the..well, you get the idea.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 23:50:22 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) > chooses to serve the forces of darkness. And moreso, because she is a > celestial being and has chosen to expand Hell's influence. She COULD choose > to side with Heaven, or if she really wanted to, stay out of the War In fairness, I'm not sure that's necessarily true. Now, before going further with this, I have to admit that my understanding of the story behind Lilith comes largely from fantasy sources, but my understanding is that she was basically kicked out to make room for Eve. Heaven very well may not WANT her. Lucifer offered her the Word she wanted and the Essence to create Lilim, mostly in exchange for endorsement rights ("Evil brand reality(TM) - supported in part by a grant from Lilith!") As I read her bit in the In Nomine description, she flat out told Lucifer, "Alright, you can tell people I'm on your side, but I get to do -what I want-". It's also significant, I think, to note that her word is Freedom..not Anarchy, Chaos, or any other such derivative. As to staying out of it, for someone of her position, that probably wasn't much of an option either. Many of the pagan gods can stay out of it NOW because they're weak. When they weren't, Uriel went after them. All of them. Whether they were opposed to Christianity or not. Heck, many of them probably hadn't even HEARD of this "God" person until Uriel showed up at their door and skewered 'em. (The Eskimo gods are one set I'd put firmly in that category.) What is there to suggest either side would have LET Lilith stay out of it? > purposes....Haagenti likes fine cuisine as well as artery-clogging fast > food, Vapula likes ALL technology, and some of his inventions may actually I'd disagree with that, too, from their descriptions. Haagenti isn't the Demon Prince of FIne Cuisine; he's the Prince of Gluttony. He'll EAT fine cuisine, just like he'll eat hamburgers, wrappers, plates, the table, a chunk of the floor and the poor kid sweeping up...but I don't think that even begins to touch on actually encouraging the finer points of gourmet cooking. Vapula is quite firmly to the mad and destructive science - offhand, I don't think there's any evidence that he supports "good" technology in any way. And while television itself has done some good as well, that's because his direct control is far from absolute - it's too much in the realm of humanity. You can't logically credit that to Nybbas. > Only because tyranny is common....but the point is, Lilith doesn't make ANY > value judgments. She advocates freedom for completely selfish reasons, Granting that the rules do suggest this, I'm not entirely convinced, personally...probably something to do with cultural heritage, but I still note that Freedom is a different Word than Chaos or Selfishness. > They are devoted to freedom for *themselves*, that doesn't mean they really > care about anyone else's freedom. (Their Resonance, in fact, is designed to > restrict the freedom of others!) As regards the actual Lilim...well, that's a very different story. They may be made in their Mother's image, but that doesn't mean they're quite so much a part of her Word...their Resonance is a pretty good sign of that, as you note. (Personal theory - I think Lucifer tricked her on that. The Lilim are mirror images of Lilith, and like mirror images, they look identical but are subtly reversed. He IS the greatest deceiver of the Balseraph, after all..) > outs with his Prince. So you can be a non-dissonant Renegade. (You can also > be a non-dissonant Outcast, in fact.) Well, not by the character generation rules, where you pick up a level three Discord just for being one or the other...but yeah, with a good story behind it, that should be highly GM-waivable, if your character broke off from their side without violating their nature. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 00:01:52 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... > About Kyiotates leaving their hosts in at least as good condition as when > they found it... if the host is unaware of what the celestial is doing in > his body, when he finally comes to after a few days of doing whatever with NO I think they pretty clearly specify "Physically". (The idea of taking a Soldier of Hell into the police station, pulling out a gun, and then skipping away from the body -before- it gets shot to swiss cheese, which someone had suggested about a week ago, I think was a perfectly valid way for a Kyriotate to take out a Soldier...they only get Dissonance if it takes a hit before they leave.) On the related note, taking a body in bad shape to begin with, while having the obvious drawback that you're going into a body in bad shape to begin with (heh), can help with this, since you just compare start and end points..anywhere it goes in between doesn't make a difference. So befuddlement isn't a problem. Though as a GM, I'd say that if a Kyrio is REGULARLY taking their hosts out and leaving them in precarious positions, I'd say that violates the spirit of their Resonance and becomes Dissonant after a time or two. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 00:18:17 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Questions > If you're doing the Perception deal, and fulfill the Need, *then* > there's that "not knowing" sense... And with those little Geas/1's > running around the Lilim community, they probably don't matter enough Heh...I bet they get annoyed with those. "Oh, you only want me to get the mayonnaise off the top shelf? Fine. Great. You owe me. Someday I'm going to require you to..to...oh, heck, tie my shoes so I don't have to bend over for it, or something. Sigh." > And, finally, even with qualified Geasa, you can still get sucked > into conflicts... "Don't mess with my attuned without my permission." And besides, you can only qualify it so far. Sure, you can have it at that higher level and be sure you won't end up working for someone gross like Saminga or Haagenti...but who'd've thought Andrealphus was into ectoplasm? > Ah, blackmail. Hmmm... Yeah, that could work. Very nice and evil... Oh, good..we've evenly traded evils, I don't owe you anymore... (Er, then again, I may have too much Lilim on the brain.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 02:20:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Calabim@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) All this talk of Lilith and Lilim and Bright Lilim and are they all evil or not set me wondering... With lilim, or succubi you have an image of a diabolical who is usually portrayed as female. Are there any divine counterparts from Judaism or Christianity that are usually portrayed as female? - -Calabim@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 00:31:38 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... > Would that be simply opposing Will rolls or would they duke it out Celestially? > The thing is that if it was just a Will roll, there'd be nothing to keep the > loser from hanging around and trying again (and again,...). The winner All told, I think it would have to be the Will rolls, because one of them is continually in the host and therefor protected from direct Celestial attack... But there are a couple things to consider. A loser is going to have to wait a while before trying "again and again" (what is it? One hour per the check die, I think, before a failed roll can try again?) If they're WINNING, they'll keep bouncing each other in and out, but as soon as one flubs it, that's going to be over..particularly since if it's the Sheddim, he's going to have to go get a new host to tide him over. The other thing that should keep them from just going at it forever is, of course, each other, and potentially friends. (Who, noting your next question...I believe Celestial combat can be joined in by multiple combatants...) > It's not inbalancing in and of itself but it does have to potential for abuse. Well, sure, but what doesn't? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 03:41:23 -0400 (EDT) From: "Michael C. Nutt" Subject: Re:IN> Lilim Resonance Question (I've tried to snip this as much as possible, but it's tough to do while keeping context. My apologies, everyone...) Paul wrote: >Let me introduce some terminology that will help clarify the situation. > >A *potential* geas is what a Lilim gets after she fulfills a targets >need, but before she actually asks for the favor. > >An *actualized* geas is the geas after the Lilim makes it clear what she >wants from her victim. > >I think you are talking about actualized geasa, while I am talking about >potential geasa. > >A Lilim can gather potential geasa with almost no restrictions at all. >She can do so without the victim's consent, or even their knowledge! All >she need do is learn the victim's need and fulfill it. In fact, neither >the victim or the Lilim control which need the Lilim must fulfill; it is >determined randomly by the Resonance roll. If the GM wants, he may allow >this stage to be negotiated instead of rolled randomly. I disagree with this. For instance, in the example quoted in the rulebook, what if Josephine the Lilim had just sent an anonymous payment to the bank so that the "hapless victim" *didn't* get forclosed on... but she never told the poor guy about it, and just called in a Geas on him later? That's not any kind of a "bargain", or a "temptation". That's just manipulation. OK, there might be a definite place for that kind of thing as *well* as the other types of dealings, but I don't think it should be a Lilim's primary mode of operation. I think consent to the Lilim's assistance is a prerequisite, and is at least implied in the rules. >The potential geas is always unqualified. It has two characteristics: the >person owing a favor and the level at which the favor is owed. There is >very little a victim can do to prevent the Lilim from gathering a >potential geasa, other than refusing all gifts from the Lilim :) And here I think there is at least an *implied* contract that is possible. The victim can say, "I will only accept your offer under these circumstances", and the Lilim can then accept his "counteroffer" (for lack of a better term), or she can say, "Too bad... hope you get that loan from the bank, then." Now, he might be *desperate* enough to take her up on her offer regardless of any conditions, or he just might be *naive* enough to do that, too... but I think that's like signing a contract you haven't read. >When the Lilim wants to actualize the geasa, she has two choices: > >1) She can try to force the victim to obey her will. The victim gets a >Will roll to resist. If the Will roll fails, the victim has no choice but >to obey or suffer the Dischord. If the Will roll succeeds, the geas is >"used up" and the *Lilim* gains dissonance. There are no restrictions on >what the Lilim can ask for, other than the Level of the potential geas. Well, she *does* get a second crack at him a few days later, if he successfully resists the first time. It's not gone forever just yet. Also, if she's self-Geased to keep her promise, she gets dissonance for breaking *that*. >2) The Lilim can negotiate with the victim. She can say "Either I can >force you to do what I want, or we can talk about it." She and the >victim can dicker over terms until they are mutually satisfactory. Then >the victim *voluntarily* accepts the negotiated geas, i.e. he doesn't >resist. This way (a) the victim gets some input into the favor and (b) >the Lilim doesn't risk dissonance. Option (2) is much more common when >Lilim are dealing with other Celestials. However, if they cannot agree >on something, Option (1) is always available. OK, I think I see the difference in what we're arguing here. I say that a subject can *always* try to resist a Lilim's resonance-imposed Geas, no matter whether he bargained with her or not about it. *However*, if he tells her "Drop your resonance-obtained Geas on me, and I will voluntarily inflict upon myself the Ethereal Discord of Geas at one level higher, with conditions X, Y, and Z that we have pre-negotiated", he's got to fulfill his promise, or suffer the penalty. It wouldn't be quite so mechanistic in actual play, though. I think that the "initial bargaining" would be a setup for this situation. The Lilim perceives his need; the victim decides if he'll accept her aid, and under what conditions; if one of these conditions is that there will be restrictions on the Geas, then they have to "swap it out" for a self-inflicted Discord as I described above. I *don't* think that anyone should be *forced* to accept a Lilim's aid, though. I think you ought to have to *choose* to accept that temptation... and take that first step on the road to Hell all by yourself. >If there are any remaining differences between us, I think it may lie in >what a Lilim gathers when she fulfills a need. In my opinion, when a >Lilim fulfills a need, she gets a *potential* geas. After all, it is >clear from the rules that a Lilim can gather geasa without the victim's >consent, otherwise there would be no need for a resistance roll. This >would be impossible if all geasa were fully negotiated. I think the rules >(not to mention the netrep) back me up on this. She can gather needs to her heart's content (or at least all that she can perceive), and work on fulfilling them, but she doesn't *have* to help anyone who won't give in, or who insists on putting in qualifiers. If you're drowning, *any* lifeboat looks pretty good, y'know. The resistance roll comes whenever someone decides to *break* his own promise to help her out in return for her earlier aid, and negotiation doesn't have anything to do with that. As far as the *rules* go, I think it's a fuzzy area... and John, we love ya, guy, but jockeying for position before any official clarifications are issued is a time-honored tradition. :) >No additional qualifiers can be put on the geas until the Lilim gets >around to using or "actualizing" it. Thus, when the Lilim fulfills a >need, she can promise to only ask for a specific favor later. However, >she can always welch on that promise and ask for something else. The >only option left to the victim is to try and resist with a Will roll. If her resonance-imposed Geas is still available, I'd have to agree. I think the scenario I described above is more likely, though, especially for any victim who understands anything about Geasa. Devil's advocate time, however... my alternative requires that a Lilim be *able* to voluntarily dissolve her resonance-obtained Geas, *and* some method of making sure that both parties carry out their promises, one to dissolve a Geas, and the other to inflict one on himself. I still think mine is more nifty plot-wise, but it's a little clunkier, and has loopholes. I'll stand firm on allowing someone to refuse to accept a Lilim's aid, and thus keep her from obtaining a "potential Geas" on him, though. >Of course, there is the universal golden rule of gaming: your game is >yours and you are free to interpret the rules as you see fit. On the >other hand, since you are playing in my PBEM, my interpretation of the >rules may have some impact on you as well :) Why do you think I'm arguing so hard about it, Paul? I'm doing my best to Enlighten you as to your Mistaken, Errant Ways, and not crush us under the weight of a Faulty Interpretation... :) Michael There are two secrets to success: 1. Never tell everything you know. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 09:46:50 -0400 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Questions > Heh...I bet they get annoyed with those. "Oh, you only want me to >get the mayonnaise off the top shelf? Fine. Great. You owe me. Someday >I'm going to require you to..to...oh, heck, tie my shoes so I don't have >to bend over for it, or something. Sigh." Remember favors are cumulative. So if oyu reach for the mayonnaise enough times, you can get a lot out of your victim. "Remember how I used to wait on you hand and foot in the house? Well, could you do me a little favor, to repay all those times I fetched you the mayonnaise? Here, take this letter..." -Loki - -- Kirt A. Dankmyer --- Academic Computing Specialist http://www.wfu.edu/~dankmyka/ -- (910) 759-4202 -- PGP public key available. For the Snark _was_ a Boojum, you see. --Lewis Carroll ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 09:36:27 EST From: "PERRY M. LLOYD" Subject: Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) THe Lilim present a painful paradox to the American value system, so far as I can tell, at least mainstream value system: namely freedom. The idea of "freedom" and "independence" are valued greatly in American culture, yet we have with Lilith "freedom" being presented on the side of evil and darkness. It wouldn't surprise me at aall if many Americans would be ready to defend Lilith and her Lilim as being merely "misunderstood", not truly "evil" and actually not actually serving Lucifer in the least. Silly People... (yes, I *am* one) PML ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 09:54:53 EST From: "PERRY M. LLOYD" Subject: Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... >> About Kyiotates leaving their hosts in at least as good condition as when >> they found it... if the host is unaware of what the celestial is doing in >> his body, when he finally comes to after a few days of doing whatever with NO > I think they pretty clearly specify "Physically". (The idea of >taking a Soldier of Hell into the police station, pulling out a gun, and >then skipping away from the body -before- it gets shot to swiss cheese, >which someone had suggested about a week ago, I think was a perfectly >valid way for a Kyriotate to take out a Soldier...they only get Dissonance >if it takes a hit before they leave.) > > > So befuddlement isn't a problem. Though as a GM, I'd say that if >a Kyrio is REGULARLY taking their hosts out and leaving them in precarious >positions, I'd say that violates the spirit of their Resonance and becomes >Dissonant after a time or two. After rereading the the text I'd have to agree, they mean the body, the "shell". I'm surpised that heaven would be more concerned with "shells" than with the minds of the "shells". I guess I keep forgetting that this game separates body and spirit (quite literally). On the matter of precarious positions, *I* would define a precarious position any place other than where the body, sorry, the mind, "fell unconscious" i.e. was forced into the ethereal realm. Sorry, but walking up in a strange place after suddenly slipping into a dream sounds pretty bad. Perhaps there is something in the resonance of the Kyriotate which smooths out the mind of the host after they leave it. Can't imagine how it would done with the mind of the person left without memory, perhaps they're left to smoothe it out themselves. The mind can do amazing things in order to maintain integrity. Of course, some of those things include what we term mental illness... "Wow! How did I end up in England? Oh, yeah, must've been UFO's..." PML ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:21:32 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) PERRY M. LLOYD wrote: "THe Lilim present a painful paradox to the American value system, so far as I can tell, at least mainstream value system: namely freedom. The idea of "freedom" and "independence" are valued greatly in American culture, yet we have with Lilith "freedom" being presented on the side of evil and darkness. It wouldn't surprise me at aall if many Americans would be ready to defend Lilith and her Lilim as being merely "misunderstood", not truly "evil" and actually not actually serving Lucifer in the least." A lot depends on labeling. What if the (late) Prince of Sloth were labeled "Prince of Rest" or even "Prince of Peace"? Envy usually calls itself "justice." Wrath often does the same. Avarice got a tremndous boost when it got called "enterprise." Perhaps in Heaven Lilith is known as "Princess of Irresponsibility" or "Princess of Anarchy" (which I guess means she gets to be the head anarch). Or, given the way she and hers operate, perhaps "freedom" is dismissed as a flat-out lie and she is known as the "Princess of Traps." Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 13:06:17 -0400 (EDT) From: gibsonc@nku.edu Subject: Re: IN> Re: your mail I have given one of my NPC's a weapon to do celestial damage as well as corporeal. If he did enough to rid a human of all celestial forces what would happen to the human? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 13:19:40 -0400 (EDT) From: gibsonc@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Needs and Perception in response to the vampire and needs, no. he could fulfill the need during the night so that the next sunset he gets essence. but can a vampire have another need, instead of blood? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 13:15:21 -0400 (EDT) From: gibsonc@nku.edu Subject: [none] this is a quick post to let you know a rule i'm using and to get some comments. i don't like they way a celestial can make a will roll to resist the effects of certian songs, regardless of song level or what have you. also songs like attraction, if the celestial gets you hooked, its too hard to break free. thus my rule. if a song can be resisted, it is resisted by making a will roll minus the essence spent on the song. if you get "hooked" then to come off you must make the same roll +1 for each time you've tried to break free. to me it makes the songs more beneficial while not making them too powerful. another thing, does anyone else think its too cheap for pc's to buy forces? for ten points they can raise each attribute under the force and all corresponding skills. i'm thinking of using a scale where you cannot raise forces and each attribute costs your current level to raise. jahon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:46:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Austin George Loomis Subject: Re: IN> KYD #10 (Marc) On Wed, 28 May 1997, at 14:58:33 CDT, tom timberlake wrote: >good work, Mr. Loomis. i especially liked the inclusion of possible AA >allies and helpful choirs in dealing with the various Diabolicals. Remember -- the Book says that Marc is willing to do deals with more or less any of his fellow AAs. It only makes sense that he'd mention those allegiances. And Marc's lot, like Nybbas', aren't what you'd call combat monsters for the most part -- it makes sense to me that they'd prefer to leave the fighting to experts. >The >British accent lended it a flavor all its own, while the format >preserved the feeling of the original--familiar, but spiced differently. Thank you. That was pretty exactly my intention -- to give the spokes- angel his own voices. ("How do you mean, spokes? I'm a Mercurian, not an Ofanite!") [Keep making jokes like that and you'll be an Impudite of Kobal before too long.] ("Sounds ghastly.") >Garlic bread instead of whole wheat, so to speak. consider yourself >officially "atta' boy"-ed. > Thanks. The next KYD I expect to have finished should be a decided contrast, though... (No spoilers, but Beth knows who it's going to be.) >tom t. Austin George "Maybe I should do the KTE's on Litheroy while I'm up" Loomis ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #187 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.