From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat May 31 02:22:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA32508 for ; Sat, 31 May 1997 02:22:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA05396 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 30 May 1997 23:24:55 -0500 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 23:24:55 -0500 Message-Id: <199705310424.XAA05396@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #189 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, May 30 1997 Volume 01 : Number 189 In this digest: IN> PBEM Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Questions Re: IN> Archetypes [long] IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) IN> Kyriotate Remnants Re: IN> Needs and Perception Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Questions Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... Re: IN> Questions: Cosmology and pantheistic religions IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... Re: IN> Needs and Perception IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) Re: IN> God's exact height, and a happy Thursday Re: IN> God's exact height, and a happy Thursday Re: IN> God's exact height, and a happy Thursday Re: IN> God's exact height, and a happy Thursday Re: IN> God's exact height, and a happy Thursday Re: IN> Needs and Perception Re: IN> God's exact height, and a happy Thursday Re: IN> God's exact height, and a happy Thursday IN> The Song of Fire Re: IN> God's exact height, and a happy Thursday Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:29:34 +0500 From: "James Rand" Subject: IN> PBEM I'm sorry to have to post this to the list, because it really doesn't belong here, but whoever was recuriting players for that PBEM, could you please email me off-list... I've got a character written up but I forgot to save your address so I've nowhere to send it to. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:36:05 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Questions > Way I see it, other demons make jokes about that, while Lilim > scoff that some things are *too* trivial. And then, amongst I think the Lilim mostly remember which demons scoffed, and then when THEY need a favor.."Oh? Are you sure that isn't too..trivial? I don't know.." > themselves (their fellow Lilim), they keep careful track of > those unofficial favors... "It's your turn to get the pizza, I think it's probably considered very crass for a Lilim to Geas another Lilim, but probably equally rude for one to not honor favors anyway... > >times, you can get a lot out of your victim. "Remember how I used to wait > >on you hand and foot in the house? Well, could you do me a little favor, to > >repay all those times I fetched you the mayonnaise? Here, take this letter..." > While I like it, I don't know if we want to introduce the concept > of fractional Geasa... };) Heheh..."Let's see now...I got the mayo, picked up your laundry, typed up your essay, kissed you to make that one girl jealous, and found that lost sock. Now I want YOU to pick up this knife, drive across town, knock on a door, and stab whoever answers. 'Kay?" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:48:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Kabael Subject: Re: IN> Archetypes [long] Loonies all the way, man!! aint no otha way! and i work at KFC, BTW, so I can get some free *WIngs!* for any fellow loonies to use in their escapades. :~) Kabael MEO kabael@tiac.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:40:38 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) >>>Nope. She wants them to be free of _non-voluntary_ restraints. <<< Like, say, laws against killing people who annoy you, or parking in handicapped parking spaces. >>>Nope. It is designed to _enforce_ a relatively fair deal.<<< Nope, it is designed to enforce whatever deal the Lilim makes, whether it's fair or not. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:35:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: IN> Kyriotate Remnants Okay, here's a question'd been wondering about...Say a 9-Force Kyrio possesses a 5-force human, with a four day duration. The next day, he decides to celestially duel with a Diabolical, and manifests its celestial form without leaving the host. Unfortunately for the Kyrio, he picks the wrong opponent, and winds up losing all his Celestial Forces, but retains the five forces necesary to keep hold of a Human host. Unfortunately, he also loses his Heart, and his Resonance. So what happens to him now? I see a pair of ways to interpret this... 1) The Kyriotate's resonance instantly stops working. He neither has a vessel of his own, nor a borrowed one, and his forces dissipate. 2) The Kyriotate can no longer use his resonance, but he retains possession of the vessel for the remaining three days, after which he gets kicked out, and dissipates as above. On the other hand, I see another two ways to go with this, but neither of them seem particularly likely. Might make for an interesting character story, as one-in-a-million occurances, though. So I thought I'd include them. 3) The Kyriotate can no longer use his resonance, but he retains possession of the body indefinately. Kind of unfair really, as it means the Host has to roam the Marches until the vessel dies. Could be really interesting if the Kyriotate had more than one Vessel when he went Remnant, and events separated the vessels by a great distance. Especially if there were a good reason to track them both down. 4) The Kyriotate remains in the vessel, but the mind of the Host returns, the remnantized Kyrio sits in the back of the host's mind, kind of as a split-personality type thing. Or it may manifest as sleepwalking behavior. Any opinions on this matter would be appreciaated. Thanx. = http://www.io.com/~beholder ===================== nofori@pop3.utoled.edu === Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Thomas, Haballah Baron of Factions, the Demon of Democracy ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:51:46 EST From: "PERRY M. LLOYD" Subject: Re: IN> Needs and Perception >in response to the vampire and needs, no. he could fulfill the need >during the night so that the next sunset he gets essence. but can a >vampire have another need, instead of blood? Oh, yes indeed. A lot of good, nasty ones come to mind, spinal fluid, pus, flesh, sex (with the succubi?), cancer (see X-files for the inspiration), cum (yum, yum, love that... sorry), pain, fear, woodchips, whipped cream, small rodents, anything, really. Usually something which is hard to get a hold of without harming other people or going to great lengths. So, I guess maybe not woodchips or whipped cream, unless they have to be from, say, Norway. :) PML ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:00:02 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Questions > Remember favors are cumulative. So if oyu reach for the mayonnaise enough > times, you can get a lot out of your victim. "Remember how I used to wait And, thinking about it more seriously, I have to admit that any Lilim worth her salt really ought to be able to make quite a bit out of little level 1 favors. (Personally, I think I'd rather have dozens of level 1s than just a couple level 6s...after all, delivering a package he doesn't know has some guy's wife's head in it is a very minor favor for a postman to do..) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:56:34 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... > "shell". I'm surpised that heaven would be more concerned with "shells" > than with the minds of the "shells". I guess I keep forgetting that this That struck me as a bit odd, too, actually, though it may be based somewhat on the human perspective. Suddenly finding yourself four days later someplace you weren't is odd..suddenly finding yourself without an arm, even if it happened all at once and you remember everything, is bad. > they're left to smoothe it out themselves. The mind can do amazing things > in order to maintain integrity. Of course, some of those things include > what we term mental illness... There is, I suppose, the possibility of explaining it, but on the whole, I think this is the big reason Cherubs don't like Kyriotates...still, they're far from the only Choir with what I, at least, would call some ethical questionability. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:20:47 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Questions: Cosmology and pantheistic religions > If belief ir even just thinking about them *can* create "gods" in the >Marches then I can see the posibility of some Cthuloid beings in Beleth's >realm. Well, even beyond that, I can't offhand see some Cthuloid beings NOT being in Beleth's realm, but... > I would think that these would be a primary target since they would show > that it is even *possible* to be good if you are not under Gods dominion. > That would be an even greater threat to Uriel's purity than an evil god. Good point... > There is some support for this though. Several of the Catholic saints were > pagen gods before they were consumed. In fact, this happened in most And I hadn't thought about this, but as you mention it..definitely. I'd suggest that, even to someone like Uriel must have been, just slaughtering someone who's unarmed, on their knees in front of you saying, "But..we're on the same side," would be a little distasteful...at least giving them the, "Alright, so submit" option would alleviate that. (Though some of them would definitely have to give up their Words...on which note, with the parallel thread about duplicate Words causing problems - that may have been one of the reasons Uriel was doing it in the first place. HOW many Gods of THunder have there been? That just had to be cleared up..) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:40:36 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) >>>In fairness, I'm not sure that's necessarily true. Now, before going further with this, I have to admit that my understanding of the story behind Lilith comes largely from fantasy sources, but my understanding is that she was basically kicked out to make room for Eve.<<< No, usually (including in In Nomine) it is suggested she CHOSE to walk away from Adam. Eve was her replacement when she left. >>>Heaven very well may not WANT her.<<< I think even Lucifer could repent and return to Heaven if he really wanted to. He doesn't want to, neither does Lilith. All diabolicals made a CHOICE, and continue to make it by remaining diabolicals. >>>Heck, many of them probably hadn't even HEARD of this "God" person until Uriel showed up at their door and skewered 'em.<<< I doubt that. Of course it is a matter of taste, not canon, but I prefer the monotheistic viewpoint....like it or not, God IS the Supreme Being, and always has been. It makes In Nomine a more interesting game, with more complex moral dilemmas, than going with the pop-fantasy trend that "all religions are equal, the ones that are more powerful are just the ones who have more worshippers." >>>I'd disagree with that, too, from their descriptions. Haagenti isn't the Demon Prince of FIne Cuisine; he's the Prince of Gluttony.<<< And if fine cuisine is what it takes to make a gourmet turn gluttonous, that's what he'll encourage. Of course his motive is not advancing the culinary arts, but the point is, any Prince can do things that have some positive effects. Their ultimate objective is always evil, however. >>>Vapula is quite firmly to the mad and destructive science - offhand, I don't think there's any evidence that he supports "good" technology in any way.<<< This is a debatable point. I like to see Vapula as a truly amoral mad scientist who doesn't really care about the moral questions his inventions raise. But he can also be seen as specifically focused on evil inventions. Still, even his evil inventions might have beneficial effects....this would probably be how he gets humanity to use them. >>>And while television itself has done some good as well, that's because his direct control is far from absolute - it's too much in the realm of humanity. You can't logically credit that to Nybbas.<<< Of course not. Nybbas is probably not a patron of Hallmark specials. But the point is, he invented television, he made it popular. And though he uses it for evil, television CAN also be a force for good. That is my whole point about Lilith; just because her Word CAN be a force for good doesn't mean she intends it to be. >>>Well, not by the character generation rules, where you pick up a level three Discord just for being one or the other...<<< Only if you start out as an Outcast or Renegade. You don't automatically pick up a level 3 Discord if you become disfavored during play. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 01:12:12 EST From: "PERRY M. LLOYD" Subject: Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... > There is, I suppose, the possibility of explaining it, but on the >whole, I think this is the big reason Cherubs don't like >Kyriotates...still, they're far from the only Choir with what I, at least, >would call some ethical questionability. Ahhhh, yes... I assume you're referring to the Malakim? I was able to come up with a way of viewing them I find resonable... PML ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 08:32:17 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> Needs and Perception > At 1:19 PM -0400 5/29/97, gibsonc@NKU.EDU wrote: > >in response to the vampire and needs, no. he could fulfill the need > >during the night so that the next sunset he gets essence. but can a > >vampire have another need, instead of blood? > > Oh, of *course*! But then we wouldn't call him a vampire... > A "gaki," maybe -- those Japanese critters ate things besides > blood, IIRC... Including tears, sweat, and excrement, I believe. If anyone is interested, later today I will hunt up a book by WW that listed what all the different ones ate and post it to the list... > --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net Oops da Ogre, can they take a different vunerability than sunlight? mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 11:31:44 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) >>>Sacrifice your very existance for no gain (Lilith's likely fate if she'd tried to stay neutral)? More dubious...<<< I dunno, Uriel conducted one purge 1200 years ago, but most of the gods that survived that seem to be surviving quite well. Survival may well be Lilith's rationalization for siding with Hell, but I don't buy it as being exclusive of her also being spiteful, self-centered, and basically evil. >>>Nope -- it's *ambigious*. Not evil, not good. Ambigious.<<< Her motives are not ambiguous, though. She is utterly self-centered. She supports "freedom", absent of any moral distinctions whatsoever. This may not be the same as devoting yourself exclusively to a clearly definable sin, but it is without a doubt supporting the cause of evil. Self-centeredness is definitely more evil than good. She may not think of herself as evil. But her efforts do far more for evil than for good, and she knows it. >>>This makes her a more evil entity than Janus, who advocates change and chaos and swiping things for "completely unselfish reasons"?<<< Yes. Janus makes value judgments; his angels steal from the *wicked*. They don't steal from innocent people, they not only don't seek to cause harm with their theft, but they make an effort to ensure their thefts serve the cause of good and do NOT further the cause of evil. Now, this method is certainly morally dubious, which is why Dominic looks at Janus with a jaundiced eye. But the point is, Janus's intentions are good, and his Servitors consciously seek to do good and oppose evil. Lilith's intentions are completely self-centered, she has chosen to side with evil, and her Servitors are, by overwhelming majority, actively serving the cause of evil. >>> And no, it DOESN'T mean they care about anyone else's freedom! But neither does it mean that one *can't*. I'm *HARDLY* arguing that *all* Lilim are really good!!<<< I am not arguing that one can't. I'm arguing that very, very few Lilim are good, and Lilith certainly is not even ambiguously close to being good. >>>Error: p. 30 clearly states that Renegades start the game with Discord, unable to summon their Prince or use Rites.<<< This is for demonic PCs starting the game as Renegades. A demon who becomes a Renegade during play does not need to have Discord, or even Dissonance. If his Prince says "You are no longer in my service," Bang! He's a Renegade. (Of course, he's probably also dead a second later, but that's beside the point....) >>>>[...] So you can be a non-dissonant Renegade. (You can also >be a non-dissonant Outcast, in fact.) Not according to pp. 29-30 -- at least, they are stated to start with Discord.<<< For starting PCs. Even an angel can be cast out by an angry Superior, theoretically without him even having earned dissonance. And a Renegade or Outcast who *was* dissonant can get rid of it, but remain disfavored. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:02:06 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> God's exact height, and a happy Thursday Patrick O'Duffy wrote: > And He looks just like Charlton Heston. When He doesn't look like George Burns. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:06:07 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> God's exact height, and a happy Thursday Austin George Loomis wrote: > And while we're on the subject of God's height and weight and > such, I just wanted to say that G.K. Chesterton's 1908 book _The Man > Who Was Thursday: a nightmare_ should IMAO be required reading for any > GM planning to have the Almighty make a personal appearance in their > campaign. And does anyone who's read the book have thoughts on whether > the other six Days (Monday, Gogol, St. Eustache, Syme, De Worms and Bull), > and Lucien Gregory, are meant to represent specific deities? Or, at > least, specific Archangels? I agree with the recommendation of "Man Who Was Thursday" for people planning to bring God on stage. I don't think the other six "days" were meant to represent deities or archangels, but if I say what I think they DO represent, it might spoil the book for people who haven't read it. Lucien Gregory wasn't a "day," was he? He DID represent a particular Celestial, I think. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:31:09 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> God's exact height, and a happy Thursday Another good book for IN inspiration is Dorothy L. Sayers's version of the Faustus story, "The Devil to Pay." Just about any telling of Faustus would be useful, of course, but Sayers's has more lines for angels, and concludes with a very interesting scene set on the celestial plane. List members may be more familiar with Sayers as the author of the Lord Peter Wimsey detective stories. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 15:09:27 -0400 From: Logan Black Subject: Re: IN> God's exact height, and a happy Thursday Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > Patrick O'Duffy wrote: > > > And He looks just like Charlton Heston. > > When He doesn't look like George Burns. > > Earl Wajenberg But have you ever nopticed you never see Charlton Heston or George Burns in the same place. I think that God, Heston and Burns were all the same person...:) - -- We are the people our parents warned us about. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 16:12:18 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: Re: IN> God's exact height, and a happy Thursday Message text written by in_nomine-digest >Austin George Loomis wrote: > So, if somebody 200 feet tall would be twelve times the size > of God, then God Himself must stand 16'8" tall. QED. Woodstock ueber > Alles! And He looks just like Charlton Heston. Having seen HAMLET last week, I now know that Charlton Heston _is_ God. - - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia< Fraid not Pyramid #9? had god as Groucho Marx Adam Dahak@Compuserve.Com "God doesn't Play dice with the Universe. He's Tpoo Busy playing Practical Jokes..." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 17:18:39 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Needs and Perception On May 29, 9:40pm, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Needs and Perception > At 1:19 PM -0400 5/29/97, gibsonc@NKU.EDU wrote: > >in response to the vampire and needs, no. he could fulfill the need > >during the night so that the next sunset he gets essence. but can a > >vampire have another need, instead of blood? > > Oh, of *course*! But then we wouldn't call him a vampire... > A "gaki," maybe -- those Japanese critters ate things besides > blood, IIRC... Japanese folklore is full of odd critters with weird needs... an excellent place to look evil undead types. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 07:39:40 +1000 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> God's exact height, and a happy Thursday Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > Patrick O'Duffy wrote: > > > And He looks just like Charlton Heston. > > When He doesn't look like George Burns. > > Sure, they both _played_ God - but I'm arguing that Charlton Heston _is_ God. Actually, I think God look like Heston, rather than vice versa. Man, what a presence... If I'm ever being mugged by 6 guys in an alley, I don't want Batman coming down to save me - just Charlton Heston to walk in and destroy thyem with a wave of his hand... - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia Some say a comet will fall from the sky Followed by meteor showers and tidal waves Followed by faultlines that cannot sit still Followed by millions of dumbfounded dipshits TOOL, "Aenima" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 20:59:42 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul F. Strack" Subject: Re: IN> God's exact height, and a happy Thursday On Fri, 30 May 1997, Logan Black wrote: > But have you ever nopticed you never see Charlton Heston or George Burns > in the same place. I think that God, Heston and Burns were all the same > person...:) I've seen them at the same place, but that's OK. God's a Kyriotate :) Paul Strack | Madness takes its toll. pfstrack@math.unc.edu | Please have exact change. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ World of Darkness Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/wod.html In Nomine Page: INC2 - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/innom/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 20:03:25 -0500 (CDT) From: Austin George Loomis Subject: IN> The Song of Fire [I kept meaning to check the INC pages and see if somebody's already submitted a Song with this motif. If somebody has, I'm going to feel a right prat, I can tell you...] Song of Fire This Song unleashes a blast of raw Symphonic energy into its target, doing damage that can rip body, mind, or soul to shreds. But it's a decidedly two-edged sword -- a sufficiently strong-willed individual can absorb the fires into himself and *gain* in power thereby! Briefly, this Song comes in the usual three versions. Further details are basically the same for each version, with the appropriate substitutions left as an exercise for the apt pupil. Success with this Song does the appropriate type of damage for that version of the Song (the Corporeal version does Body hits and so on) equal to the successful check digit plus the amount of Essence put into the Song. The target, however, may resist with a Will roll, at a penalty equal to the Essence spent by the performer. If successful, he *adds* the "damage" to his characteristics of that type (Intelligence and Precision for the Ethereal rendition) for a number of minutes equal to *his* successful check digit. Someone who gains four or more attribute points from absorbing the fire *does* get a temporary extra Force (or two) while the boost is in effect. If that would put him over six Forces of that type, he must allocate the additional attribute points to an adjacent category until it, too, is filled. Overflow from the Corporeal and Celestial Songs of Fire goes to Ethereal Forces first; Ethereal Song overflow goes to Corporeal attributes first. The Celestial mix of this Song *can* do celestial damage to a target in corporeal form, and unlike the Calabite of Lust attunement, it *can* do enough Soul hits to strip away a Force -- unless the target is naturally corporeal, in which case it just knocks him down to his last Soul hit. Essence Requirement: 1, maximum 3. Degree of Disturbance: performer's successful check digit, plus the successful check digit of the target's Will roll. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 07:39:40 +1000 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> God's exact height, and a happy Thursday Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > Patrick O'Duffy wrote: > > > And He looks just like Charlton Heston. > > When He doesn't look like George Burns. > > Sure, they both _played_ God - but I'm arguing that Charlton Heston _is_ God. Actually, I think God look like Heston, rather than vice versa. Man, what a presence... If I'm ever being mugged by 6 guys in an alley, I don't want Batman coming down to save me - just Charlton Heston to walk in and destroy thyem with a wave of his hand... - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia Some say a comet will fall from the sky Followed by meteor showers and tidal waves Followed by faultlines that cannot sit still Followed by millions of dumbfounded dipshits TOOL, "Aenima" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 20:40:15 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) > >>>Nope. It is designed to _enforce_ a relatively fair deal.<<< > Nope, it is designed to enforce whatever deal the Lilim makes, whether it's > fair or not. I don't know - a Lilim can only enforce a Geas of a level, based on their ability, equal to the Need she fulfilled - which was based on their requirements. It's hard to think of anything intrinsically fairer. Now, the fact that most Lilim seem likely to leverage that as much as possible and specifically choose the Geas as something that will get their subject in trouble is actually irrelevant, given that we're discussing the intrinsic evil of the Resonance. The Lilim CAN'T, to pull an earlier example, get the mayonaisse down for someone and then ask them to go kill their wife, and enforce it by their Resonance... ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #189 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.