From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Jun 1 04:34:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA26551 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 04:34:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA04864 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 03:14:19 -0500 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 03:14:19 -0500 Message-Id: <199706010814.DAA04864@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #190 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, June 1 1997 Volume 01 : Number 190 In this digest: Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... Re: IN> Kyriotate Remnants Re: IN> Beginning Bright Lilim Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) Re: IN> The Song of Fire IN> Cosmology ad infinitum Re: IN> Needs and Perception Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) RE: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... RE: IN> The Song of Fire Re: IN> Needs and Perception RE: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... RE: IN> The Song of Fire IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #189 IN> Mailing me neat info about the raddest game since vampire... Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) RE: IN> Mailing me neat info about the raddest game since vampire... IN> Geasa Re: IN> Geasa ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 20:31:16 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... > >Kyriotates...still, they're far from the only Choir with what I, at least, > >would call some ethical questionability. > Ahhhh, yes... I assume you're referring to the Malakim? > I was able to come up with a way of viewing them I find resonable... Well, the Malakim come quickly to mind, but I was also referring to, well, the rest of them. Take the Seraphim, for another good example. I know, it's generally drilled into our heads that Truth is inherently a good thing, but it's NOT. Truth is TRUE, and that's as far as that goes...similar to David's diligent arguments against Lilith, Truth doesn't make the distinctions - it doesn't care if it hurts someone or not. Now, an individual Seraph might, indeed, care, but their Resonance doesn't...just as a particular Kyriotate might work his darndest to avoid emotionally discomfiting his hosts, but the Kyriotate Resonance doesn't. And a Seraph gets just as much Dissonance for telling white lies as black ones. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 20:56:08 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotate Remnants > form without leaving the host. Unfortunately for the Kyrio, he picks the > wrong opponent, and winds up losing all his Celestial Forces, but retains > the five forces necesary to keep hold of a Human host. That would be kind of an awkward situation, wouldn't it? On the whole, I actually think the Kyriotate -WOULD- maintain the host's body, myself, though it might be only fair to give the host at least a chance to kick 'em out first. > 3) The Kyriotate can no longer use his resonance, but he retains > possession of the body indefinately. Kind of unfair really, as it means the > Host has to roam the Marches until the vessel dies. Could be really Or the host's mind dissipates after a while, without the Kyriotate's Resonance holding his attachment to his old body. (Or the host's mind gets out to the Far Marches and enlists one of the old Gods in exchange for his devotion, bu that's just a thought.) As a fifth, amusing, alternative, similar to your #4; the Kyrio's `spirit' remains dormant within the host...if the host ever has a child, the Kyriotate will embody that instead. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 20:49:52 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Beginning Bright Lilim > >HAD served (because the Attunements, if I remember right, don't go away - > >once you're Attuned, you get to stay that way forever), > (No, they go away -- p. 60, the box on Redemption.) Whoops...even worse than that, actually, it's right there on p. 149 with the rest of the Lilim stuff that a Bright Lilim keeps "only the abilities that are basic to the Lilim." Sorry about that. (Though, on the note of it, I do consider it significant enough to mention again that I don't think Bright Lilim undergo "Redemption," per se, in the same way other Bands do...Redemption entails a fundamental change of Resonance. A Bright Lilim is still basically a Lilim who happens to be making the effort to do her favors for the other side.) > If she'd gone Bright by the time they saw her, then > they wouldn't need or want to kill her... So there, I don't know that they'd be able to tell straight away. (Granted, Dominic could just say, "You want to work for us?" and check his Resonance on the answer...) We've been toying with the idea today of a Bright Lilim attaining the rank among the Archangels...{The Archangel of Just Rewards, perhaps?} ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 21:17:57 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) > A lot depends on labeling. What if the (late) Prince of Sloth were > labeled "Prince of Rest" or even "Prince of Peace"? Envy usually What if? He wasn't - he was Sloth. Quite distinctly Sloth. Andrealphus isn't the Prince of Love or even of Good Sex - he's Lust. Beleth isn't the Princess of Sleep; she's of Nightmares. Heck, even Kobal, who you'd think could have just called himself the Demon Prince of Humor, actually holds the Word, "Dark Humor." And where Janus coasts by with "Wind", Valefor is a flat "Theft"... > Perhaps in Heaven Lilith is known as "Princess of Irresponsibility" > or "Princess of Anarchy" (which I guess means she gets to be the Bluntly, she probably IS referred to that way on a casual level...but I think there's strong evidence that a Word -MEANS- something. If the Prince of Sloth had called himself the Prince of Rest, he wouldn't have BEEN "Sloth", and his powers wouldn't have been the same. A Celestial is more defined BY their Word than vice-versa. A Word comes with new attunements (that can even be passed on to others), new Rites...and a virtual compulsion to enact it. I think in this matter it's vital to realize that Celestials aren't strictly "people." They're not as complicated as people; Celestials are largely defined by their Resonances, which is why trying to break away from those can seriously disrupt a Celestial's fundamental being (eg. Discord.) Lilith is Freedom. If she were Princess of Chaos, she'd be a very different creature. [Thinking about it, it occurs - Words can probably be inflicted as well as granted..."Botched another mission, hm? I think I'll make you the Demon of Impotance...now go see how your master Andrealphus can find use for you." ] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 21:08:31 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) > behind Lilith comes largely from fantasy sources, but my understanding is > that she was basically kicked out to make room for Eve.<<< > No, usually (including in In Nomine) it is suggested she CHOSE to walk away > from Adam. Eve was her replacement when she left. *ahem* And whoops again. Still, I'm not sure that exercising the free will that God, personally, gave her can be construed as Evil... > I think even Lucifer could repent and return to Heaven if he really wanted > to. He doesn't want to, neither does Lilith. All diabolicals made a CHOICE, I'm less sure of that with Lucifer than I am with Lilith, as you mention it. God never DID give the angels free will, after all... > >>>Heck, many of them probably hadn't even HEARD of this "God" person until > Uriel showed up at their door and skewered 'em.<<< > I doubt that. Of course it is a matter of taste, not canon, but I prefer > the monotheistic viewpoint....like it or not, God IS the Supreme Being, and Comes down to a matter of worldview, so I'll mark that as fair variance. But for myself, even taking the monotheistic view, I'd feel compelled to point out that Catholicism was thriving in the Europe/Asia/African region for centuries while religions in the Western hemisphere went on with no contact. (It's one of the primary reasons I noted the Eskimo `pantheon', such as it can be called that, as a definite. You don't have to reject the "God really -IS- God" basis for them to have been a bit startled when Uriel popped in and started splitting heads.) > always has been. It makes In Nomine a more interesting game, with more > complex moral dilemmas, than going with the pop-fantasy trend that "all > religions are equal, the ones that are more powerful are just the ones who > have more worshippers." Depends on the complex moral dilemmas you happen to want. > raise. But he can also be seen as specifically focused on evil inventions. > Still, even his evil inventions might have beneficial effects....this would > probably be how he gets humanity to use them. Potentially, but as you note - if Vapula's inventions have positive effects, it's only as a hook. Lilith, as even you have argued, at her worst just doesn't care. On the personal level, it's also worth noting that to a very large extent, she DOES stay out of things. She maintains her own freedom; she does very little to force it on others. Similar to what Elizabeth was just noting - just as no one's suggesting all Lilim are good, I don't think there's any valid point to suggest that Lilith herself is purely good. But I think it's equally valid as the point that she's purely evil, which strikes me as also being "Not at all." If anything, she's a sanctioned Renegade. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 00:33:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Calabim@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> The Song of Fire In a message dated 97-05-31 00:24:39 EDT, you write: << [I kept meaning to check the INC pages and see if somebody's already submitted a Song with this motif. If somebody has, I'm going to feel a right prat, I can tell you...] >> Thanks for the song of fire. A while back a player in my gaming group DID do a song of fire and I posted it, since we were wondering if people thought it was playable or if stank or what. It warranted a few jokes, but no serious "it was cool" or "y'kno that was really bad" type reactions. My player will be happy to see your take on a song of fire. But please! I don't know what "a right prat" is but it sounds a bit nasty. Don't feel one unless your absolutely sure it's necessary. :-) - -Calabim@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 May 97 02:51:07 UT From: "Kurt White" Subject: IN> Cosmology ad infinitum On Thursday, Jeff wrote "If belief ir even just thinking about them *can* create "gods" in the Marches then I can see the posibility of some Cthuloid beings in Beleth's realm." I like this idea, should sort out some of the cockier Celestials. Considering the Old Ones inhabited the Earth millions of years before the first trace of man, they must have a bit of power behind them, even if they are dead/sleeping. What a scenario - Cthulhu wakes up and finds out some upstart called Yahweh trashing his planet fighting some other little nobody called Lucifer. Cthulhu calls in the big guns; Azathoth, Nyarlathotep, Shub- Niggurath... Of course, if the Elder Gods also got in on the action, I don't think there would be much left of the Earth to fight over. I wonder if the Old Ones feed off the Essence of their worshippers/slaves like Impudites feed off people? - -Kurt Cthulhu Fthagn ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 May 97 05:09:41 UT From: "Kurt White" Subject: Re: IN> Needs and Perception >>but can a vampire have another need, instead of blood? >Oh, yes indeed. A lot of good, nasty ones come to mind, spinal fluid, >pus, flesh, sex (with the succubi?), cancer (see X-files for the inspiration), >cum (yum, yum, love that... sorry), pain, fear, woodchips, whipped cream, >small rodents, anything, really. Usually something which is hard to get a >hold of without harming other people or going to great lengths. So, I >guess maybe not woodchips or whipped cream, unless they have to be from, >say, Norway. :) But can a Need be psychological? What if you are playing a complete loony of a vampire whose Need is to give Methodist vicars a wedgie once a day? Or a need like watching 2 hours of Hogan's Heroes or the Goodies a day? Then again, it could solve a vampires problems... curled up in his coffin, watching endless repeats of Gilligans island, although such a pathetic creature would have almost no Will or Perception (not to mention possessing ANY Savoir Faire). Even a sensible psychological need, rather like Kobal's attunements, so that if you can really piss some one off you regenerate Essence, is that a viable Need for an Undead? Perhaps that's how politicians stay alive, they have a Need/3 to Screw Up Your Life. - -Kurt "I feel the Need, the Need for expeditious velocity." - Brain ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 00:06:45 +0500 From: "James Rand" Subject: Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) > *ahem* And whoops again. Still, I'm not sure that exercising the > free will that God, personally, gave her can be construed as Evil... I don't think God could grant free will. If everything exists only because he created it and he has omniscience (and therefore knows how everything he creates will turn out) isn't he responsible for how it all falls out? Since he knew what was going to happen, and could have changed things beforehand so that they worked out differently? If he is, then everything happens because that's the way he wanted it to turn out. I don't see much free will there. And that isn't how it works, then his knowledge is either less than omniscient or there are things in existence not of his creation marring his work. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 May 97 05:28:07 UT From: "Kurt White" Subject: RE: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... >> "shell". I'm surpised that heaven would be more concerned with "shells" >> than with the minds of the "shells". I guess I keep forgetting that this > That struck me as a bit odd, too, actually, though it may be based >somewhat on the human perspective. Suddenly finding yourself four days >later someplace you weren't is odd..suddenly finding yourself without an >arm, even if it happened all at once and you remember everything, is bad. Ways that Kyrios can really annoy people: Take control of a body, buy a ticket to Tahiti, and when you arrive burn his passport and leave :) Physically, he's no worse for wear... Run your host into the ladies' (or gents' as appropriate) restroom shouting "I am Cornholio!", or any other inane rambling you can devise. Exit, and watch as the ex-host comes to grips with his new-found friends. Or, if you have the forces to handle it, you could really destroy a few relationships by careful manipulation of your hosts "Roger! What are you doing in bed with that woman/man/duck/coffee percolator (only Kyrios of jean)??". Talk you way out of THAT one, mundane! Just thinking of the possibilities, you'd never want to annoy a Kyrio, especially if he *can* possess a celestial (I still don't think so). Even if they can't hurt the host, they could still make your life pretty uncomfortable. - -Kurt "Narf, Zort!" - Pinky ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 May 97 05:44:00 UT From: "Kurt White" Subject: RE: IN> The Song of Fire >The Celestial mix of this Song *can* do celestial damage to a >target in corporeal form, and unlike the Calabite of Lust attunement, >it *can* do enough Soul hits to strip away a Force -- unless the target >is naturally corporeal, in which case it just knocks him down to his >last Soul hit. I may be sounding a little naive, but I thought that for game-mechanics, you could not do Celestial damage (apart from Andre's limited ability) to a Corporeal vessel, to stop players from creating a monster at Celestial combat who never really bothered with Corporeal forces because he could toast his enemy's brains and turn them into a remnant with a snap of his fingers. I am assuming here by "Naturally corporeal" that this means humans, and undead. Maybe Moriah, John or His Holiness Pope Derek P. could give us the canon approach to Celestial damage in a vessel? Of course, if this song is non-canon, and an isolated incidence of this type of damage (barring the Level 6 Gun resource that does check digit x 50 in soul hits - standard issue of Ultimus Maximus I would guess) that would make this a moot point. BTW - has anyone else noticed that nobody actually seems to be creating Lilim that are not either "bright" or "grey"? From reading the list alone, you would assume that there wasn't a single Lilim left in Hell, they all seem to have defected to Heaven or Earth. Maybe it's like trying to create a Malakim who *isn't* a prat, and can't be done? - -Kurt Where have all the Lilim gone? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 May 97 05:09:41 UT From: "Kurt White" Subject: Re: IN> Needs and Perception >>but can a vampire have another need, instead of blood? >Oh, yes indeed. A lot of good, nasty ones come to mind, spinal fluid, >pus, flesh, sex (with the succubi?), cancer (see X-files for the inspiration), >cum (yum, yum, love that... sorry), pain, fear, woodchips, whipped cream, >small rodents, anything, really. Usually something which is hard to get a >hold of without harming other people or going to great lengths. So, I >guess maybe not woodchips or whipped cream, unless they have to be from, >say, Norway. :) But can a Need be psychological? What if you are playing a complete loony of a vampire whose Need is to give Methodist vicars a wedgie once a day? Or a need like watching 2 hours of Hogan's Heroes or the Goodies a day? Then again, it could solve a vampires problems... curled up in his coffin, watching endless repeats of Gilligans island, although such a pathetic creature would have almost no Will or Perception (not to mention possessing ANY Savoir Faire). Even a sensible psychological need, rather like Kobal's attunements, so that if you can really piss some one off you regenerate Essence, is that a viable Need for an Undead? Perhaps that's how politicians stay alive, they have a Need/3 to Screw Up Your Life. - -Kurt "I feel the Need, the Need for expeditious velocity." - Brain ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 May 97 05:28:07 UT From: "Kurt White" Subject: RE: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... >> "shell". I'm surpised that heaven would be more concerned with "shells" >> than with the minds of the "shells". I guess I keep forgetting that this > That struck me as a bit odd, too, actually, though it may be based >somewhat on the human perspective. Suddenly finding yourself four days >later someplace you weren't is odd..suddenly finding yourself without an >arm, even if it happened all at once and you remember everything, is bad. Ways that Kyrios can really annoy people: Take control of a body, buy a ticket to Tahiti, and when you arrive burn his passport and leave :) Physically, he's no worse for wear... Run your host into the ladies' (or gents' as appropriate) restroom shouting "I am Cornholio!", or any other inane rambling you can devise. Exit, and watch as the ex-host comes to grips with his new-found friends. Or, if you have the forces to handle it, you could really destroy a few relationships by careful manipulation of your hosts "Roger! What are you doing in bed with that woman/man/duck/coffee percolator (only Kyrios of jean)??". Talk you way out of THAT one, mundane! Just thinking of the possibilities, you'd never want to annoy a Kyrio, especially if he *can* possess a celestial (I still don't think so). Even if they can't hurt the host, they could still make your life pretty uncomfortable. - -Kurt "Narf, Zort!" - Pinky ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 May 97 05:44:00 UT From: "Kurt White" Subject: RE: IN> The Song of Fire >The Celestial mix of this Song *can* do celestial damage to a >target in corporeal form, and unlike the Calabite of Lust attunement, >it *can* do enough Soul hits to strip away a Force -- unless the target >is naturally corporeal, in which case it just knocks him down to his >last Soul hit. I may be sounding a little naive, but I thought that for game-mechanics, you could not do Celestial damage (apart from Andre's limited ability) to a Corporeal vessel, to stop players from creating a monster at Celestial combat who never really bothered with Corporeal forces because he could toast his enemy's brains and turn them into a remnant with a snap of his fingers. I am assuming here by "Naturally corporeal" that this means humans, and undead. Maybe Moriah, John or His Holiness Pope Derek P. could give us the canon approach to Celestial damage in a vessel? Of course, if this song is non-canon, and an isolated incidence of this type of damage (barring the Level 6 Gun resource that does check digit x 50 in soul hits - standard issue of Ultimus Maximus I would guess) that would make this a moot point. BTW - has anyone else noticed that nobody actually seems to be creating Lilim that are not either "bright" or "grey"? From reading the list alone, you would assume that there wasn't a single Lilim left in Hell, they all seem to have defected to Heaven or Earth. Maybe it's like trying to create a Malakim who *isn't* a prat, and can't be done? - -Kurt Where have all the Lilim gone? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 09:44:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #189 >Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 20:40:15 -0600 (MDT) >From: Kingsley Lintz >Subject: Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) > >> >>>Nope. It is designed to _enforce_ a relatively fair deal.<<< >> Nope, it is designed to enforce whatever deal the Lilim makes, whether it's >> fair or not. > I don't know - a Lilim can only enforce a Geas of a level, based >on their ability, equal to the Need she fulfilled - which was based on >their requirements. It's hard to think of anything intrinsically fairer. One of the reasons it's not fair is that, even if you know that the person is a Lilim, and even if she tells you that "I'm geasing you for this," you don't have the option of simply saying "No." It's the celestial equivalent of someone hacking into your bank account, stealing twelve thousand dollars, and buying you a car with the money. Take this example: Joe Human needs forty thousand dollars to pay off his gambling debts. Jane Lilim sees the Need in his eyes, and decides the best way to get him to owe her one is to pay off his debts herself. Joe's options to avoid being Geased, if he finds out what's going on, are the following... 1) Take care of the Need in some other way before the Lilim can. (Hm, I can either let Jane Lilim provide me with the forty thousand dollars...or I can rob a bank...) 2) Eliminate the Lilim, permanently, or just long enough to prevent her from filling the Need. (I need forty thousand by Thursday, and if I kill this Lilim, she'll likely be in Trauma until next week..) 3) Make the Need impossile to fill. (I Need forty thousand dollars...but it the Lilim gets it for me, I'll be Geased. So I'll collapse the planet's economy, making money worthless...) 4) Eliminate the Need. (I Need forty thousand dollars to pay off my gambling debts to Vinnie, but if I can convince him to forgive that debt, I'm free.) 5) Resist. That's the nastiest thing about Geasa. The Divine Contract attunement still requires the free acceptance of the terms by both parties, But Lilim resonance can be fulfilled without your permission, without even your knowledge. When the favor gets called, you'll find out if you try to deny it. The only thing you can do is try to convice the Lilim not to use the Geas, or resist it. = http://www.io.com/~beholder ===================== nofori@pop3.utoled.edu === Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Thomas, Haballah Baron of Factions, the Demon of Democracy ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 10:56:15 -0700 From: Denasgrp@aiinc.com (Payne, Dena) Subject: IN> Mailing me neat info about the raddest game since vampire... Steve Hill 2056 Christie Cir Fallon, NV 89406 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 18:07:23 -0500 From: Charybdis GreyDragon Subject: Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) > I don't know - a Lilim can only enforce a Geas of a level, based >on their ability, equal to the Need she fulfilled - which was based on >their requirements. It's hard to think of anything intrinsically fairer. >Now, the fact that most Lilim seem likely to leverage that as much as >possible and specifically choose the Geas as something that will get their >subject in trouble is actually irrelevant, given that we're discussing the >intrinsic evil of the Resonance. The Lilim CAN'T, to pull an earlier >example, get the mayonaisse down for someone and then ask them to go kill >their wife, and enforce it by their Resonance... But, since favors *are* cumulative, the Liliam can do a series of small favors-- Geas/1 or Geas/2-- and then cash them all in at once for a much larger more serious favor... Geas/5 or even Geas/6. Which may be fair, but sort of puts the recipient of the Liliam's little favors in a serious bind... Peace, Charybdis GreyDragon karydbis@phoenix.net ** "No man is a hypocrite in his pleasures."** ** -- S. Johnson ** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 18:15:25 -0500 From: Charybdis GreyDragon Subject: Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) > Bluntly, she probably IS referred to that way on a casual >level...but I think there's strong evidence that a Word -MEANS- something. >If the Prince of Sloth had called himself the Prince of Rest, he wouldn't >have BEEN "Sloth", and his powers wouldn't have been the same. A >Celestial is more defined BY their Word than vice-versa. A Word comes >with new attunements (that can even be passed on to others), new >Rites...and a virtual compulsion to enact it. I think in this matter it's >vital to realize that Celestials aren't strictly "people." They're not as >complicated as people; Celestials are largely defined by their Resonances, >which is why trying to break away from those can seriously disrupt a >Celestial's fundamental being (eg. Discord.) Hmmmm... I wonder... Words are not absolute, you know. They change and develop over time... Linguistic drift and all of that. I mean, consider the word Lilith in real life... Originally she was thought of as one of the most evil of demons... But in the last 30 years or so, she was more or less adopted as a "role model" for Jewish feminists who envisioned her more as a woman who exemplified freedom than a source of evil temptation... So now, again in real life, a group of game designers have incorporated her into their game system as a Demon of Freedom... not truly temptation... Where am I going with all this? I'm not entirely sure myself... But perhaps, just perhaps, the road to Redemption for a Word-bound demon is not to change the demon himself, but rather to change the meaning of the Word, and thus alter the demon that embodies it.... Just an odd musing from someone with too much of a love for real life words, I guess.... Peace, Charybdis GreyDragon karydbis@phoenix.net ** "No man is a hypocrite in his pleasures."** ** -- S. Johnson ** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Jun 97 00:38:03 UT From: "Kurt White" Subject: RE: IN> Mailing me neat info about the raddest game since vampire... Is this another subscription request? Raddest? how unhip :) >Steve Hill >2056 Christie Cir >Fallon, NV > 89406 BTW I have found another completely brilliant book about magic & religion, it is called "Mystereies and Secrets of Magic", it has some damn fine pieces on the origins of biblical and demonic myhtology, and a really cool section on kabbalah (Qabala). Book is by C.J.S Thompson, printed by alot of publishers (firstly in 1927 by John lane, this edition 1996, Senate) ISBN 1-85958-156-0. - -Kurt "Call me Hermes" White ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 13:37:17 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: IN> Geasa With all the talk of Geasa that has been on the list of late, I've a question that I'm not sure if anyone's asked or answered. If Geasa can be cumulative, so if you have six level ones you can call them in at once for a level 6, can a bigger geas be broken down. Say you fulfill a major need from someone and get a geas 5 on them. Later on, you need them to deliver a letter to someone they work with. Now this is no trouble to them, hardly a level 1, but can you just invoke one level of your level 5 and have a level 4 left? Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 01:07:30 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Geasa > can be cumulative, so if you have six level ones you can call them in > at once for a level 6, can a bigger geas be broken down. Say you Personally, I'd say no. You can invoke more than one at a time, but once you do invoke one, you're using it. If you need to blow a Level 5 Geas on a level 1 favor, that's just one of the risks you take... ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #190 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.