From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Jun 2 22:44:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA04122 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 22:44:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA07736 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:00:00 -0500 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:00:00 -0500 Message-Id: <199706030200.UAA07736@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #192 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, June 2 1997 Volume 01 : Number 192 In this digest: Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) Re: IN> The Song of Fire IN> Determinism (was Evil Lilim) RE: IN> Determinism (was Evil Lilim) Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) IN> We can Hear you [ when you get angry ] RE: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) Re: IN> The Song of Fire^H^H^H^HLightning IN> Examples of Evil Lillim Lilim ( was Re: IN> The Song of Fire) Re: IN> Malakim (Was in_nomine-digest V1 #190) Re: IN> Geasa Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) Re: IN> Cosmology ad infinitum IN> But what about OTHER active religions Re: IN> celestial breeding Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... IN> Sign up for mail list Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 22:53:44 +0500 From: "James Rand" Subject: Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) I'm starting to get burned out on this sort of thing, so I'm not going to talk about determinism or God's inherent evil. But I do want to do something constructive, like point out this: > I was referring to omniscience, not omnipotence. God, being > omnipotent, can choose to do anything, necessarily including making > Physics indeterminate, as He has apparently done. Having done that, > God's omniscience can only detect the possibilities his omnipotence > has allowed. "Can God create a rock so heavy he can't lift it?" That's the exact paradox you're arguing about. "Can God make things so random he won't know the exact outcome?" It's the same thing... God's omnipotence pitted against itself. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 22:44:00 EST From: "PERRY M. LLOYD" Subject: Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) >children and how they will act and what they will become. We must >necessarily assume we have free will, because if we indeed have it, we >must prepare ourselves and our children for the responsibility of it. >If we assume we do not have it, then nothing matters since our life is >preordained. Good God, man! Just because some all-powerful being knows and perhaps even has preordained our life, it does not mean that it is meaningless and nothing matters! I have free will, I can choose to do with my life what I will, however, the path my life will take is predetermined. *I* don't know what is going to happen to me, I don't know what I will end up doing with my life, thus I can choose whatever I will. Of course, what I end up choosing to do will be what I was going to choose to do all along, but I don't know that! So, I have free will to determine what my future will be but I will end up choosing what I will because it was determinded before hand. Another way of looking at it is that God knows what will happens to me, thus my life's path is predetermined, but since I do not, I choose to do what I will. Or, another way of looking at it is this: Once a moment of time has passed, it has moved into the past. We cannot change the past, only the the present (or future if you will). Since all time will move from the future through the present to the past, all time cannot be changed. Since God is (supposedly) a being which exists outside of TIME and sees it as a whole rather than the limited way which we view it, then all time might be said to exist at the same time, all points existing at the same time only we humans view it slowly as we move through it. All time exists as a whole, meaning that past, present, and future no longer pertain as terms. All time is one and IS. Thus it is predetermined, preordained. We cannot see the entire picture, so it shouldn't matter if what will happen to us in our life and what we do is already determined or not. If it is, then it is, if it's not then it's not. Either way, we are free to make choices in our lives. Free will is ours because we don't know if the future is predetermined. I, for one, am happy to believe that my life is "predetermined" but that I still have Free Will to choose my destiny. Perry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 23:04:28 EST From: "PERRY M. LLOYD" Subject: Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) >If God knows in advance that I must do one and only one thing, then >while I may feel I have free will, the feeling is false. A choice >among one option is not a choice at all; freedom to do only the single >thing that is determined by the structure of the universe is not >freedom at all. The feeling is false? Goodness, no! How could it be false? You had the choice of writing what you did or not writing what you did. You chose to write what you did. Yay! You just exercised your Free Will! You can create the illusion that you have no Free Will, but that's just what it is, an illusion. Some say all of life is an illusion? I don't believe we have the tools to perceive the difference between illusions and reality, at least those within the mind. What does the mind do but merely create a illusion of what the world must be liie based upon the imput it receives through the senses? Sight, sound, taste, smell, touch, these only provide sensory impressions which help guide the creation of a model of the physical world within our mind. X-rays, mirowaves, radiowaves, ultraviolet, infra-red, these exist but we cannot directly perceive them and we rely upon external instruments to create a representation of them, an illusion, for us so that we may interact with them. So, what is illusion what is real? These are questions I leave to those with too much time on their hands and myself when I'm in the proper mood. I put forth that since life is made up virutally completely of illusions, should it matter that you have found one more to believe in? Namely, the illusion that Free Will does not exist, or that Free Will does exist. Perry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Jun 97 04:31:25 UT From: "Hermes Trismegistus" Subject: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions David wrote: >>All of those things you suggested are nasty tricks more appropriate for a Shedite than a Kyriotate. I think a Kyriotate that screws up peoples' lives without actually causing harm to their bodies is still going to incur dissonance<< Which is true, but it is just a way that Kyrios can really get to someone they dislike, maybe a known but unconvicted robber, and there are no servitors of Gabriel onhand to give him a trashing, wouldn't it be nice to be able to deal out a small amount of justice without copping any flack from Dissonance/disturbance? Or am I being a little to nasty for the Kyrio mindset? >>In my online game, there are two Lilim PCs, both serving a Prince of Hell other than Lilith. And there is also a Malakite who isn't a "prat". << I was very relieved to hear that (also Rogue's comment), I'd thought all the Lilim had been reading self-help books, and stocking up on crystals... I suppose I am a little biased towards Malakim, but there must be some out there who could be doing a good job (don't let Dom push her around). - -Kurt doombu@msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 23:40:29 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) > I don't know - a Lilim can only enforce a Geas of a level, based > on their ability, equal to the Need she fulfilled - which was based on > their requirements. It's hard to think of anything intrinsically fairer. > Now, the fact that most Lilim seem likely to leverage that as much as > possible and specifically choose the Geas as something that will get their > subject in trouble is actually irrelevant, given that we're discussing the > intrinsic evil of the Resonance. The Lilim CAN'T, to pull an earlier > example, get the mayonaisse down for someone and then ask them to go kill > their wife, and enforce it by their Resonance... Actually, that would depend on just _how_ many times the Lilim did the condiment transportation gig... Something that has had me wondering is, if, for example, a Lilim had two level 4 Geasa on one individual, could they try to call in a Geas of level 8? I'm not sure just what the Hell a level 8 would be required for, but it's still something I've wondered about. If not, I don't suppose that you could get "change" of level 2 out of the above example if you could only get a level 6... Oops da Ogre, slogging through 200+ email messages mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 23:49:19 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> The Song of Fire > BTW - has anyone else noticed that nobody actually seems to be creating Lilim > that are not either "bright" or "grey"? From reading the list alone, you > would assume that there wasn't a single Lilim left in Hell, they all seem to > have defected to Heaven or Earth. Maybe it's like trying to create a Malakim > who *isn't* a prat, and can't be done? My wife posted a Lilim of Gluttony a few weeks back, "Aunt Marti". Of course, she's the only Lilim working for Hell I remember on the list. For that matter, I haven't seen any male Lilim... > -Kurt > Where have all the Lilim gone? Oops da Ogre, You're not cleared for that. Fnord. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 00:55:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Wilmoth Subject: IN> Determinism (was Evil Lilim) Since someone has to be a party pooper eventually, I'll volunteer: I personally feel the philosophical discussions such as the one this thread has morphed into (possessed?) aren't appropriate to the list. Sure, they're fun to read, and they even have a good argument for being valid to the game, ; however, given the determinism/free will question has been on Great Minds for centuriesmlillenia, it seems unlikely going into it in depth here will lead to anything but arguments and flaming at some point. Discussing philosophy and religion as it applies to the *game*, now, is clearly fine; but none of our 'official' Archangels on the list are at all inclined to (short of a 111 roll) to, for exampl, e, definitively say 'IN NOMINE has no free will!' etc. form what I'v, and rightlyfrom what I've seen. 8=) If the list produced less mail, I wouldn't be particularly worried, but as the volume currently stands, I think some thought hshould be given to what is and isn't on topcic *before* Uriel is sent back to keep an eye on us. (Uriel, Archangel of listm moderators?) )(Suggestion, if feasible: the IN Philosophy -list, a seperate mailering list for just such discussions- I'd gladly subscribe, myself.) Failing that, once tha topic wanders deep into the abstract, unknowable areas of the Marches, it should probably move to privatwee mail. - -James, Whose Word is Small Furry Mammals ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 01:48:49 EST From: "PERRY M. LLOYD" Subject: RE: IN> Determinism (was Evil Lilim) thank you Perry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 01:47:20 EST From: "PERRY M. LLOYD" Subject: Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) "Can God create a rock so heavy he can't lift it?" That's the exact paradox you're arguing about. "Can God make things so random he won't know the exact outcome?" It's the same thing... God's omnipotence pitted against itself. Of course He can, He's omnipotent! It just eapes human understandingg. Or, alternatively, it's easy to make a rock so big you can't move it, especially if you can choose how strong you are, it is also possible to make things so random that you won't know the exact outcome, it just depends on how hard you want to pay attention. Why do we assume that being omnipotent means using all of your power to do everything? You don't need a chainsaw to trim your flowers, you don't need to hit your foe with all of your might to down them, and you certainly don't need to use your ace when a two will do. That last one was from BONE. :) Perry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 06:28:26 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) Page 149 In Nomine rulebook "If a lilim trully repents and wishes to join the angels- she does not become part of any angelic choir. She remains a daughter of Lilith, keeping only those abilities that are basic to the Lilim. No one knows how many Bright Lilim there are. Their ability to pursuade and lay geas is no more on herently evil than a malakite's ability to smash skulls; perhaps less so. But the essence of lilith is selfishness and rare indeed are the daughters who can devote themselves to others" Despite Margret Thatcher and American public opinion, selfishness is evil. Lilim are evil unless they are willing to become unselfish. Bright Lilim gain no Choir attunements by becomi9ng angels. They are still the nearest to grey of the Demons because their word can be trusted. From the description, the person the lilim is extracting a geas from must know that there is a bargin as her resonance is to know what she must give him to get him to agree. [p147-148] Adam Dahak@Compuserve.Com Sirach chapter 9 verse 5 "Gaze not on a maid, that thou fall not by those things that are precious in her." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 06:28:19 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> We can Hear you [ when you get angry ] Message text Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 01:55:59 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz >Do you have any idea HOW BIG a disturbance it would have to be to be to be sensed more than 1760 yards away? Even if we're figuring a wildly unbalanced angel with 7 Celestial Forces, and granting the additional multiples of distance that just subtract for their effective Perception for it...at this point, it's just theoretically possible that the arrival of a Superior might be detected -ONE- mile away, unless my math is just wildly wrong. (Which is possible, I'll admit, I've been known to figure things along some very strange paths, but...)< As far as I can tell your maths may be out Minmum Disturbance to be felt at 1760yards Characters Celestial Forces down the side Characters Perception across the top N:- a character with this many perception and 1 will cannot have this few Celestial forces. Detection On 12- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 _________________________________________ 1| 48 48 47 47 46 46 N N N N N N N N 2| 36 36 35 34 34 33 33 32 32 31 N N N N 3| 31 30 30 29 28 28 27 27 26 26 25 25 24 24 4| 28 27 26 26 25 25 24 24 23 22 22 21 21 20 5| 26 25 24 24 23 22 22 21 21 20 20 19 18 18 6| 24 23 23 22 21 21 20 20 19 19 18 17 17 16 7| 23 22 21 21 20 20 19 18 18 17 17 16 16 15 Detection On 7- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 _________________________________________ 1| 46 45 44 44 43 43 N N N N N N N N 2| 33 33 32 32 31 31 30 30 29 29 N N N N 3| 28 27 27 26 26 25 25 24 24 23 23 22 22 21 4| 25 24 23 23 22 22 21 21 20 20 20 19 18 18 5| 22 22 21 21 20 20 19 19 18 18 17 17 16 16 6| 21 20 20 19 19 18 18 17 17 16 16 15 15 14 7| 20 19 18 18 17 17 16 16 15 15 14 14 14 13 Detection On 2- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 _________________________________________ 1| 43 42 42 41 41 40 N N N N N N N N 2| 31 30 30 29 29 28 28 27 27 26 N N N N 3| 25 25 24 24 23 22 22 22 21 21 21 20 20 19 4| 22 21 21 20 20 20 19 19 18 18 17 17 16 16 5| 20 19 19 18 18 17 17 16 16 15 15 15 14 14 6| 18 18 17 16 16 15 15 15 14 14 14 13 13 13 7| 16 16 16 15 15 14 14 13 13 13 12 12 12 11 Thus Any celestial can detect a Malakite Killing 4 people[ assuming 2 corporeal forces each] at a mile The Avcerage 3 forces perception 6 Celestial will notice that incident automatically at 3.4 miles. so level 4 distance to a mile is only any use if some ones being unsubtle, ie Malakim, Cabalim etc. There is a good chance that a Superior will be detected at a mile if appearing in celestial form and the more perceptive types 4 forces 9 perception will detect the appearance of a superior in corporeal form over half the time. Also assuming that one gives the information for perception check digit results of 4 by rounding off then any thing under half a mile away will read 0 miles [thus telling the characvter in fact that the event is up to half a mile away as opposed to at leasty half a mile and not more than one and a half miles which would read as 1 mile] So while its not much information it does help narrow down the location of the sort of disturbances that happen when celestials pick on Humans or large structures. Smashing a heavy tank out of existance causes a disturbance of 124/4 or 31 just for the tank and extra for any essence spent doing it. This explains why Malakim of Janus [Heavens Demolition Specialists] spend so much time getting out of town fast. Adam Dahak@Compuserve.Com Ge 19:24 "Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; " ... And all the celestials in creation heard it and had headaches for days afterwards... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 06:39:52 -0400 From: Denis Sarrazin Subject: RE: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC6F1F.DCCF6560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, From: Walt Mazur [SMTP:w_mazur@primenet.com] Sent: Sunday, June 01, 1997 9:19 PM Subject: Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) >>If He is omnipotent, then He can create truly free-willed beings. At >>that point His omniscience can tell Him all the ways things *might* >>happen. > >I somehow doubt that knowing what "might" happen would make him = omnipotent - sorta goes against the definition, no? I was referring to omniscience, not omnipotence. God, being omnipotent, can choose to do anything, necessarily including making Physics indeterminate, as He has apparently done. Having done that, God's omniscience can only detect the possibilities his omnipotence has allowed. This is where I think our views diverge (or at least, the view from my = angel ). I don't think you can have conditional omniscience . = God does indeed know all, and this is not a concept that humans (or even = angels) can truly understand, imo. I don't think comparing God to a GM = is an accurate comparison either - much as I like the idea . >Another way of looking at it would be that God does indeed know = everything that is going to happen, and that he knew it when he created = humans. Humans still have free-will in that God does not control what = they do, but that doesn't mean that God doesn't know what is going to = happen - the two aren't really related, imo. Then that would mean that a human is only free to choose the one deterministic choice, known but (supposedly) not controlled by God. I have two objections: First is that if the choice is deterministic and God set the initial conditions, then God made the choice in setting the initial conditions and only the illusion of choice remains. Second is that a choice among one option is not a choice at all; the very concept of freedom implies that one has at least two options to choose between. This is not free will, but only its illusion. This is the crux of the difference in opinion, I believe. My point is = that it should be possible for God to have given humans free-will, and = still be able to know in advance the choices that they will make. This = does not mean that he "controlled" these choices, or that he set his = "machine" in motion so that it would control your choices, but only that = he knows what choices you will make (he knows all). The fact that he = might not agree with these choices, that he would have had you make = different ones if he was in control sort of proves that you are the one = making the choices. So no, I don't think that it is an illusion that we = have free will. We are still responsible for the choices we make and = cannot blame God for them, even if he knows what choices we will make. = God isn't human, nor does he have a human mind. I suspect the above is = something we can argue until we are blue in the face, and still not get = anywhere with it . I'll chuck it up to the mysteries of God, and my = angel will basically follow the above reasoning (and hopefully, won't = get into a big argument about it otherwise it may take the game over:) Regards, Denis - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC6F1F.DCCF6560 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+Ih0KAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAyAEAAAEAAAAQAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAATwAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGluX25vbWluZS1sQGxp c3RzLmlvLmNvbQBTTVRQAGluX25vbWluZS1sQGxpc3RzLmlvLmNvbQAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01U UAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAABkAAABpbl9ub21pbmUtbEBsaXN0cy5pby5jb20AAAAAAwAVDAEAAAADAP4P BgAAAB4AATABAAAAGwAAACdpbl9ub21pbmUtbEBsaXN0cy5pby5jb20nAAACAQswAQAAAB4AAABT TVRQOklOX05PTUlORS1MQExJU1RTLklPLkNPTQAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAAeAPZfAQAAABkA AABpbl9ub21pbmUtbEBsaXN0cy5pby5jb20AAAAAAgH3XwEAAABPAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZnW4A 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Song of Fire^H^H^H^HLightning "Energy is the only life....Energy is Eternal Delight." -- William Blake Having now gone and read the write-up on the Song of Fire, I must say it fits that Symphonic theme better than my version. I even came up with a different Theme for the Song I designed, which I'm surprised no- one else thought of first. Henceforth, my "Song of Fire" should be referred to more fittingly as the Song of Lightning. INC-keepers, please take note. Austin George "Thank you" Loomis ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Jun 97 09:38:08 PDT From: Christopher Paul Subject: IN> Examples of Evil Lillim Despite the extreme sympathy for the plight of the poor misunderstood Lillim and the observed propensity to make "grey" or "bright" lilim, I just wanted to offer the assurance that there are bad ones in my campaign. So far two Lillim have entered my cast: 1) Merideth, a "free" Lillim who is not at all nice. 2) A Lillim of Saminga, who has a hoarde of undead servitors, and sometimes wears a male vessel. The fact that the party of Angel PCs has already discussed redeeming Merideth (a very unlikely project) amuses me greatly. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 12:09:53 -0500 From: Carmen Clemons Subject: Lilim ( was Re: IN> The Song of Fire) Donald G Bixler wrote: > For that matter, I haven't seen any male Lilim... A while back, I posted the Angel of Roses. He was a male Bright Lilim. - --Carmen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 14:59:03 -0500 From: Charybdis GreyDragon Subject: Re: IN> Malakim (Was in_nomine-digest V1 #190) >>> Maybe it's like trying to create a Malakim who *isn't* a prat, and can't be done? I dunno... I just created a Malakim, and I don't think she's a prat... She serves the Archangel Eli, which I think helps to counter the "prat" tendency rather nicely... Her oaths, other than the required two, are to defend other angels of Eli and to protect "human creative forces with celestial potential"... She spends a lot of time at art museums and galleries... and has a role as an art critic... The fun (or perhaps interesting would be a better word) thing that arose upon creation of this character and her addition to the party, is that one of the other player characters serves Dominic (ICK!), which means he -- a Mercurian-- has definitely earned the "prat" crown for the party, rather than my (at least somewhat) laid-back Malakim of Creativity... Peace, Charybdis GreyDragon karydbis@phoenix.net ** "God doesn't play dice with the universe; but we do." ** ** --Derek Pearcy ** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 13:30:23 -0700 (MST) From: shadocat@primenet.com (Jeff Miller) Subject: Re: IN> Geasa >> can be cumulative, so if you have six level ones you can call them in >> at once for a level 6, can a bigger geas be broken down. Say you > Personally, I'd say no. You can invoke more than one at a time, >but once you do invoke one, you're using it. If you need to blow a Level >5 Geas on a level 1 favor, that's just one of the risks you take... > I agree. The scale between a level 1 geas and a level 6 geas is just too great. However, if you had a bunch of small ones you could threaten to pester him continuously unless he did something major. I mean, if Joe Celestial is on the trail of another Celestial (or in the middle of some intregue) does he really want to take the time to go to Baskin Robbins to pick up some chocolate fudge ice cream for you? -- Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 15:27:40 -0500 From: Charybdis GreyDragon Subject: Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) >> I don't know - a Lilim can only enforce a Geas of a level, based > Actually, that would depend on just _how_ many times the Lilim did >the condiment transportation gig... > Something that has had me wondering is, if, for example, a Lilim >had two level 4 Geasa on one individual, could they try to call in a >Geas of level 8? Yes, she could: "Favors are cumulative. If a person owes a Lilam two Geas/3 favors, she may call them both in at once, resulting in one Geas/6 favor!" ( _In Nomine_, p. 149) > I'm not sure just what the Hell a level 8 would be required for, but it's still something > I've wondered about. Now that's a scary thought... Just what *would* constitute a force 8 Geas??? > If not, I don't suppose that you could get "change" of level 2 out of the above >example if you could only get a level 6... I rather doubt you can get change... Once the favor's cashed in, I assume it's used up for good, whether you used it's full value or not... Peace, Charybdis GreyDragon karydbis@phoenix.net ** "God doesn't play dice with the universe; but we do." ** ** --Derek Pearcy ** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 13:30:18 -0700 (MST) From: shadocat@primenet.com (Jeff Miller) Subject: Re: IN> Cosmology ad infinitum >On Thursday, Jeff wrote >"If belief ir even just thinking about them *can* create "gods" in the >Marches then I can see the posibility of some Cthuloid beings in Beleth's >realm." > >I like this idea, should sort out some of the cockier Celestials. Considering >the Old Ones inhabited the Earth millions of years before the first trace of >man, they must have a bit of power behind them, even if they are >dead/sleeping. > That's kinda what I was thinking. >What a scenario - Cthulhu wakes up and finds out some upstart called Yahweh >trashing his planet fighting some other little nobody called Lucifer. Cthulhu >calls in the big guns; Azathoth, Nyarlathotep, Shub- Niggurath... >Of course, if the Elder Gods also got in on the action, I don't think there >would be much left of the Earth to fight over. > I was thinking more along the lines of the adventurers finding a cult that is getting very close to waking/creating one of them. >I wonder if the Old Ones feed off the Essence of their worshippers/slaves like >Impudites feed off people? > Maybe they can only do it once their Etherial Forces are gone (helplessly insane). -- Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 15:44:06 -0500 From: Charybdis GreyDragon Subject: IN> But what about OTHER active religions Greetings fellow Celestials... I do have one major question as to the In Nomine universe... How does the system deal with other major ACTIVE religions? I mean, I know that Uriel supposedly bested the other minor gods and goddesses that constituted the deities of now defunct religions like the ancient Greek pantheon and the gods of the Aztec. I know that their spirits are banished to the Far Reaches of the Ethereal Plane. But what about the deities of the major world religions that dominate the world today. I mean, by sheer number of followers, the people of the Book (Christians, Jews, and Muslims) are a MINORITY in the world today! So how does the system handle the majority of the people in the world-- the Hindus, the Buddhists, the Confucianists, the Taoists etc... Okay, since an agrement could easily be made that Taoism and Confucianism are not truly religions, let's set them aside for the time being... Buddhism does not really have gods, it's people are more or less trying to better themselves and living out cycles of live, and don't really have gods, but the Celestials can hardly just ignore all these people who constitutes the largest single religious block in the world... And what about the Hindus. The Hindu religion is still very much active, so it's deities are unlike to have been smiled and driven from the Corporeal realm. And it definitely DOES have deities... Man, do the Hindus ever have deities! Thousands of them! Do we assume that Vishnu is God and the other minor Hindu deities are just analogs for the Angels and Demons? Any suggestions out there??? ((I just love stirring up trouble with honest questions... A Balseraph, perhaps? )) Peace, Charybdis GreyDragon karydbis@phoenix.net ** "God doesn't play dice with the universe; but we do." ** ** --Derek Pearcy ** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Jun 97 18:51 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> celestial breeding >In canon, angels are created by their Superiors -- p. 108, just under >the Universal Invocation Modifiers box. But it also says that relievers can grow up to be angels (don't have the page ref, but it's in the section on supporting cast). What isn't clear in the book is where relievers come from. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Jun 97 18:57 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... >About Kyiotates leaving their hosts in at least as good condition as when >they found it... if the host is unaware of what the celestial is doing in >his body, when he finally comes to after a few days of doing whatever with NO >clue what the hell happened to three days of his life, how could the Kyrio >possibly leave the befuddled host in good condition if the host is >confused as all hell? This is why my Kyrio of Jean sticks mostly to animal and inanimate hosts. When he possesses humans, he tries to do it in a way that the human won't notice -- either for a very short time (where the human may not notice the "blackout"), or when the human would normally expect to be asleep, anyway. You can also fix the problem by only possessing human servants. There are a lot of other problems along this line. Suppose the Kyrio takes over a person for four or five days, and they don't take the host into work, and the poor human gets fired.... Either anything short of physical harm doesn't count, or Kyrios get dissonant a *lot* when using human hosts, or most Kyrios act like my Kyrio of Jean. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 22:07:02 -0400 From: Kelly MacDougal Subject: IN> Sign up for mail list I would like to be put on the mail list for "In Nomine" My e-mail address is : Puggles@Delphi.com Thank you Kelly MacDougal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 00:12:39 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) On Sun, 01 Jun 1997 22:44:00 EST, "PERRY M. LLOYD" wrote: > Since God is >(supposedly) a being which exists outside of TIME and sees it as a whole >rather than the limited way which we view it, then all time might be said >to exist at the same time, all points existing at the same time only we >humans view it slowly as we move through it. All time exists as a whole, >meaning that past, present, and future no longer pertain as terms. All >time is one and IS. Thus it is predetermined, preordained. But that is only one of the possible ways God could have created time. If it is the way He did create time, then free will is illusory: Whatever we think or feel, we're only going to make the one choice God put into the timeline; and since He's making the choice, the responsibility is logically His as well. If we posit that we really have free will--we can make choices other than that the one choice of this singularly created timeline--then we need to introduce a supertime dimension to account for the old timeline before we make our free will decision, the new timeline accounting for our decision, and our time of judgement after we've made all our choices. Essentially, we beg the question to another time dimension, so we don't really gain anything from the singularly created timeline assumption. However, God could as easily create time as the usual sequence we think of, with the future shrouded--even from God--in randomness or freewill (ours or His or both). God's omnipotent: he can choose to do *anything*. Einstein once said in protest of quantum mechanics, "I shall never believe that God plays dice with the world." Yet this is the understanding of most physicists today. Let me use a die throw to represent a choice and illustrate what I think is confusing the issue: omnipotence means only that God *can* make anything happen, not that he *must* make everything happen; and omniscience means only that God *can* know anything, not that he *must* know everything. So let us suppose we loft a die high enough that the random forces of quantum mechanics make the throw truly random. What could happen in various universes, in various creation choices God might have made? One idea is that God will control everything and the die will come up with whatever number God wants. Pure determinism. Note that this illustrates a seeming contradiction: God is omnipotent, but if He wants one and only one universe and to control what number is on the die, he must choose only one result. Sure, He might have all the pips on all the faces of the die migrate to the top, putting all 21 pips on the top face; but that's still one result, albeit a miraculous one. In this universe, God completely controls our actions, and judging us is just judging His own choices about how we act out His will. We're just automatons. (This isn't a popular belief today, but it was popular in the early days of the Catholic church. It has been argued that such fatalism was a significant factor in the decline of the Roman Empire and Western civilization.) Another possibility is that the die will fall with all six numbers up, each in a different universe of its own, resulting in a nearly infinite number of universes where everything possible happens in some of them. In this, God chooses to have it all ways. The problem here is which me is really me? If I take all possible choices, I will be *both* as good and as evil as the possibilities God created allow. Here, too, judgement makes little sense. While this manifold universe possibility is an interesting theoretical construct, we only work in usual terms with a single timeline at once, so practically it's not particularly useful to distinguish this from: The general, everyday view is that the die will come up with one number from one to six. This is consistent with omnipotence: God chooses to make the universe random. It is also consistent with omniscience: God chooses not to determine how the die will fall--He's omnipotent; he can choose to do this. Still, God would (if he chose to) know the exact probabilities of every possibility. Coming back to free will, whether free will is truly free will or determinism or quantum mechanics (or other randomness) is God's option, of course. If we have true free will then the concept of being morally judged at the end of life makes sense. If we've just been channelled by God's creation into the only possible path or buffetted by quantum mechanics into a random path, then we deserve no praise or condemnation for our pre-determined or random acts: no matter how good or evil they may appear, they are results of God's creation, not our actions. Generally, the only view that really makes sense for In Nomine (or life, IMHO) is that we have true free will. (Apologies for talking about multiple universes, which is self- contradictory however common the terminology is.) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #192 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.