From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Jun 3 13:16:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA07229 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:16:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA14420 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:54:23 -0500 Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:54:23 -0500 Message-Id: <199706031554.KAA14420@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #193 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, June 3 1997 Volume 01 : Number 193 In this digest: Re: IN> Archetypes [long] IN> Know Your Diabolicals, Blandine and Janus Re: IN> celestial breeding Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) Re: IN> Questions: Cosmology and pantheistic religions RE: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) IN> the Mouth of Madness IN> Word Flotsam in In Nomine Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #192 Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:28:32 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Archetypes [long] At 4:35 PM -0500 5/29/97, RogueLdr wrote: >Ok, ladies and gents, here's my contribution to Kobal Peace Foundation >International. Hope you like it! > [...] >DIABOLICAL SIDE >Band: >Real men play Calabim. >Real Roleplayers play Balseraphs. [Or Habbalah...] >Loonies play Ethereal Marches Spirits. >Munchkins play Lilim owed two geas/6s from Lucifer himself. Only two? (Actually, Munchkins probably want to *play* Superiors.) >OK, no more, I promise. Oh, but *why not*?? Vessels: Real Men like vessels that look cool in leather. Real Roleplayers like "just folks" Vessels. Loonies like Strength/6 mice (with the Corporeal Song of Levitation!). Munchkins want Arnie Schwartzenager and whine that their ST should be higher because of it. Servants: Real Men pick human servants (if angelic) or Zombis (if demonic) Real Roleplayers pick familiar spirits Loonies make deals with the Ethereal Spirits of Squirt Guns Munchkins want their Superiors... Favorite Types Of Discord Real Men prefer Angry, Berserk, Ugly or Murderous. Real Roleplayers choose Geasa, Bound, Need, or Merciful Loonies take Discolored, Aura, Fear, and Celestial Blindness -- all at once. Munchkins want Damaged Sense (smell)/6 and don't think Angry, Berserk, or Murderous *are* Discords... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:01:06 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Know Your Diabolicals, Blandine and Janus Know Your Diabolicals A Young Angel's Guide to the Fallen. - --------------------------------------------------------------------- #1: As delivered by a Servitor of Blandine (Dreams) Bands ===== Balseraphs: Liars who can ruin a mortal's day, and cause them restless nights. Warnings about them can be hard to make "stick," due to their habit of waging war with words. Djinn: These loveless creatures can make waking moments miserable for humans, stalking them and making them afraid to surrender to healing dreams -- not to mention that anxiety drives humans to the dark side of the Marches. The danger that they pose is more psychological, overall, but should be warned about. Calabim: Much more physically dangerous -- if one of these is about, a warning to your assigned dreamer is definitely in order, and guarding their sleep with your own wakefulness may be required. Habbalah: The emotional devastation that these insane creatures cause can plunge a dreamer into Beleth's side of the Marches without warning. Provide warning if possible, and soothe the turmoil as best you can. Dreams can offer a way to repair the damage, "from the inside out," as the mortal was wounded. Lilim: More subtle than most other demons, these vixens will get their claws deeply into a human and you may not know till it's too late. They are also hard to warn a mortal against, being so "fun," so "friendly." At least there may be some clues in an assigned human's dreams that you may intrepret *without* slipping into Nightmare's side of the Marches to discover. Be wary of finding one inside a human's dreamscape, though, as they are undoubtedly seeking Needs there! Shedim: Vile waking nightmares, taking the worst that humanity has within itself, and emphasizing it, *elaborating* on it. The horrible havoc they can cause -- in the possessed and those around the poor mortal -- is almost unbelievable. It is hard to rescue dreamers from Shedim or even warn them, as their dreamscapes usually wind up on Nightmare's side of the Marches the day the Shedite moves in. Impudites: Another difficult Band to spot and warn against, as they are friendly and subtle in their draining attacks. Again, you may get some clues from watching a dreamscape, without necessarily having to pursue it into demonic territory. Servitors of... =============== Andrealphus: There is a difference between dreams of honest desire -- even strange dreams -- and those sparked by Lust. It can be subtle, however, and care should be taken to distinguish between sleeping erotica and the dangerously selfish cravings inspired by these Servitors. Asmodeus: These Servitors are more concerned with other demons than with humans, and will rarely be a problem for us. Baal: The demons of the War are more concerned with killing angels and Soldiers than disrupting their dreams. Humans should be warned -- especially Soldiers -- and care should be taken to stay out of these demons' way. Beleth: Those of Nightmare seek to thwart the good we do, on our own grounds. They are thieves of hope and violators of the human mind. They want only to torture and destroy humanity, from the inside out, filling their nights with terror and their exhausted days with paranoia and despair. They will give no quarter and need not be given any in return. Destruction is the only outcome between a meeting between us and the Servitors of Beleth -- and those ethereal spirits who work with her. They are evil; kill them... Belial: Physically dangerous, and prone to random destruction. Be alert for these sorts in your territory, and warn your assigned dreamer(s) about the potential dangers. Fire detectors should be checked for fresh batteries. Haagenti: The Servitors of Haagenti are, surprisingly, more subtle than some -- be alert for dreams of financial troubles, or "binging" nightmares. Kobal: The presence of one of these creatures in the corporeal realm can be a surreal nightmare for a mortal cursed with Kobalic attentions. Warnings and reassurances are in order here. Kronos: Fate and Nightmare are hand in hand. Use dreams to remind your charge(s) of their hopes, of what they can aspire to. In the corporeal realm, seek out the demonic influence that troubles the human and deal with it. Malphas: Division and Paranoia suit those of Factions -- another ally to Nightmares. Again, reassurance and warnings are necessary, as well as physical exertions. Nybbas: The media is responsible for many things -- the evening news alone can be enough to send a dreamer to the wrong side of the Marches. If you can twist a nightmare of horror into a sitcom, however... Saminga: Many mortals fear death, and require peaceful reassurances. Warnings about these Servitors is vital, however, for they seek mortal deaths! Valefor: Another batch of thieves, and therefore a source of anxiety. Warn your dreamers if these sorts are in the area, and reassure them that what is *inside* is more important than mere physicaly possessions. Vapula: Jean's emphasis on the "easy answers" and physicality of technology is bad enough -- Vapula's Servitors are even worse, plunging dreamers into surreal and horrifying dreamscapes of machinery they do not understand, where every button is the wrong one, and every dream-car has its gas and brakes switched around. Lilith: Enigmatic Servitors; usually sources of disquiet in a dreamer, due to restlessness or fear of all order being stripped away from the mortal's life, and therefore to be warned against. But there has been the rare time that they have assisted our own ends, encouraging a human to follow his or her own dreams, instead of being enslaved to tedium or despair. It is probably coincidental, rather than intended, and dreamers influenced by a Servitor of Lilith should be carefully watched. - --------------------------------------------------------------------- #6: As delivered by a Servitor of Janus (Wind) [Probably an Ofanite...] Bands ===== Balseraphs: With their talent for fibs, they could really stir things up -- if only they didn't start believing in their lies themselves, and getting so *fixated* about them. Djinn: And speaking of fixations, these guys go for that kind of thing -- watch out for picking their pockets, since they may be able to track their stuff for a while! They try to be status quo guys, which makes them no fun. Calabim: The vicious, destructive ones -- they could shake things up too (don't talk to our Malakim about it, though; touchy guys, Malakim), but they're just a little too random about it. Too likely to burn themselves out without really *changing* anything. Habbalah: They'll change your mind for you if they can, but you just can't get past their obsession on "weak is bad, karmic crush, psychic stomp, mental mangle" Mission. Lilim: Buncha Bad Girls, but most of them got no interest in changing things -- just taking advantage of it for themselves. Shame we don't have more of them on our side, though! They look cool in leather jackets and chaps, and the Free lot are almost understandable! Shedim: Talk about _Invasion of the Body Snatchers_! If only they weren't so *intent* on trashing their vessels and their vessels' lives, you could see where they'd be good at shaking people's thinking up. Impudites: Essence-leeches, and they've just got no *style* about it! How's a human supposed to take chances and feel the rush when there's no Essence around to fuel that rush? Besides, property's only stuff; Essence is starting to get a little more personal. Servitors of... =============== Andrealphus: Pick their pockets -- they're usually carrying some neat toys. Either that, or get the shirt off their backs -- they're happy enough to part with *that*! Look cool in leather. Asmodeus: Have you ever seen the look on these guys' faces when you've swooped in and grabbed up a Renegade out from under their noses? Talk about a *kick*! Really serious lot, though, for Servitors of "The Game." Baal: Oh, no fun at all -- they just want to kill any angel they see. They've got no sense of play, just military fuss, fuss, fuss and destrution. Beleth: Spooky bunch, but you can usually avoid 'em. Belial: Two targets here -- fuel from their flamethrowers, and pins from their grenades (before they get thrown, of course!). That *really* makes them mad (as if they weren't P.O.'ed to begin with). Watch out that their "urban renewal" projects don't get out of hand, or hurt anyone. If they get obnoxious, see if you can find one of our Malakim, and fight Fire with heavy explosives! Haagenti: Stuff, stuff, stuff -- these people obsess over stuff! They get humans doing it too, either food or metaphoric "consumables." This is just no fun! Kobal: At least *somebody* on that side has a sense of humor -- you start to wonder, with Azzi and Baal around. Shame that it's all cynical -- it's a start, but the constant emphasis on *Dark* just gets *old* after a while! Kronos: Scary guys, take themselves way too seriously. They're trying to make the universe a frozen, dead place. No fun! Malphas: Breaking up relationships has nothing to do with kicking the status quo in the seat of the pants. These people are annoying twits! Nybbas: Crazy, how these people will *pervert* change into status quo! Sitcoms and series where all this great, lunatic stuff happens -- but then next day or week, nothing's changed! The Media reduces the unusual to *formula*! 'Scuse me while I pound my head against this stopsign here. Hey, wow! Dents! Where was I...? Saminga: Oh, yeah, this guy -- he wants *everything* to be static, unmoving, dead. We want things to be *alive* and *moving*! You find some of his mummies and stuff? Just run them down, then back up and do it again... Valefor: Like "Theft" is any compition to *us*. Okay, they're hard to hold onto, and they've got some interesting abilities... That doesn't mean that we're not Numero Uno around here! Still, keep your secret handshake and decoder ring -- sometimes, well, it's a little hard to tell, and it's always nasty to get into an unexpected rumble. They'll be happy to chase you, too. Vapula: Okay, so Vaps gives his goon-squads all these neat toys, right? Then, if they *lose* those toys, he gets P.O.'ed, right? C'mon, you're a bright kid: you can figure out where this is going... Lilith: Freedom and Wind -- you'd think that her people and us would be natural buddies, wouldn't you? But she's on the *wrong side*! Why's she doing that? Give her people a look over to see what they're up to, and treat 'em like demons when it's just too evil. - --------------------------------------------------------------------- - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:12:50 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> celestial breeding >In canon, angels are created by their Superiors -- p. 108, just under > >the Universal Invocation Modifiers box. > > But it also says that relievers can grow up to be angels (don't have the > page ref, but it's in the section on supporting cast). What isn't clear > in the book is where relievers come from. > I did a post a little while back suggesting how this could work. IMO, Relievers (and Imps and Gremlins) are also created by their superiors. Why? Because superiors need a lot of little guys to do the 'dirty work', and because it's much easier to create these little guys than a fully functioning powerful celestial. Plus, once these little celestials have grown up enought Forces to be granted choir/band status, they have obviously proven to their superior that they have what it takes to survive and grow, whereas if the superior simply creates a 'big' celestial from their own forces, there are no guarantees that this one will survive long enough to be worth the investment. Leath ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 23:38:37 -0400 From: badger@badgerden.com (Charles T. Badger) Subject: Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions At 15:44 06/02/97 -0500, Charybdis GreyDragon wrote: >Greetings fellow Celestials... > > > I do have one major question as to the In Nomine universe... How does the >system deal with other major ACTIVE religions? > > I mean, I know that Uriel supposedly bested the other minor gods and >goddesses that constituted the deities of now defunct religions like the >ancient Greek pantheon and the gods of the Aztec. I know that their >spirits are banished to the Far Reaches of the Ethereal Plane. > > But what about the deities of the major world religions that dominate the >world today. I mean, by sheer number of followers, the people of the Book >(Christians, Jews, and Muslims) are a MINORITY in the world today! So how >does the system handle the majority of the people in the world-- the >Hindus, the Buddhists, the Confucianists, the Taoists etc... > > Okay, since an agrement could easily be made that Taoism and Confucianism >are not truly religions, let's set them aside for the time being... > > Buddhism does not really have gods, it's people are more or less trying to >better themselves and living out cycles of live, and don't really have >gods, but the Celestials can hardly just ignore all these people who >constitutes the largest single religious block in the world... > > And what about the Hindus. The Hindu religion is still very much active, >so it's deities are unlike to have been smiled and driven from the >Corporeal realm. And it definitely DOES have deities... Man, do the Hindus >ever have deities! Thousands of them! Do we assume that Vishnu is God and >the other minor Hindu deities are just analogs for the Angels and Demons? > > Any suggestions out there??? > > ((I just love stirring up trouble with honest questions... A Balseraph, >perhaps? )) How do we know that each religion isn't just another way of looking at the same gods and servants? Also if there are several thousands of them that means each one doesn't have a lot of followers if each diety can only count the faithful worshippers for what level of power they currently have. - ----- Charles T. Badger ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 23:46:00 EST From: "PERRY M. LLOYD" Subject: Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) 3 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 23:48:18 EST From: "PERRY M. LLOYD" Subject: Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) But that is only one of the possible ways God could have created time. If it is the way He did create time, then free will is illusory: Whatever we think or feel, we're only going to make the one choice God put into the timeline; and since He's making the choice, the responsibility is logically His as well. If we posit that we really have free will--we can make choices other than that the one choice of this singularly created timeline--then we need to introduce a I agree, whole heartedly! Ah ha! Fooled ya, didn't I!!!! *sigh* And since we'll never know, let's ponder it some more... [Sarcasm! Sarcasm!!] Perryz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 00:12:57 -0500 (CDT) From: Scott Johnson Subject: Re: IN> Questions: Cosmology and pantheistic religions On Tue, 27 May 1997, Kingsley Lintz wrote: > > Definitely true. Mostly what I meant is that they all at least existed, > > at one time or another. Gods have died, but that doesn't invalidate their > > myths as a whole. And at least a few remnants of most pantheons remains > There IS the interesting question of what "causes" Gods; > personally, I tend to ascribe to the holding that they draw their > existance and power from the faith of their followers. I tend to think of something slightly different - what 'causes' gods is unknown (or at least I haven't thought about it yet), but what powers them is Essence. It's known Hell has ways of gaining Essence from the human souls consigned there, and it's been speculated that Heaven does similar (though this could just be malicious gossip.) I'd speculate that, if a human is an ardent believer in a pantheon that's been consigned to the Marches, there's a chance that, when they die, they'll go to the pantheon's afterlife (or the version of it they've maintained since fleeing to the Marches.) These souls then participate in activites appropriate to the afterlife (torment in Hades, endless battle and feasting in Valhalla, contented existence in one of the various paradisical afterlives, etc.), and expend Essence on a regular basis while doing so. (I could easily see a soul spending Essence to get 'resurrected' after a particularly 'fatal' battle in Valhalla, for instance.) This Essence then goes to the gods controlling the afterlife, and they've got just a tiny bit more power than they did before. Of course, not all souls beliving in these afterlives would necessarily go there - some would likely be reincarnated, just as believers in Heaven and Hell seem to be sometimes, and some might migrate to Heaven or Hell anyway - - given that H&H *are* the Celestial Planes, I would say that a particularly Good or Evil human might go there no matter what he believes. A related idea - this is in no way supported by anything canon, but what if some religious ceremonies and rituals were sort of reverse Rites - when performed, they donate an Essence from the performer to the power being venerated by the ritual? That would give these rituals a dual purpose - they would have their ordinarily stated effect (communing with a higher power, petitioning the spirits, praising and thanking God, etc.) and allow a devoted and willing human to 'tithe' some of their Essence to those who might need it. The humans wouldn't know about the Essence part, of course, but if the ritual only worked on humans who are of such a mindset that they'd be willing anyway, it would be ethical enough for even Heaven to use. (Or so it seems to me. Any thoughts?) > > > - The Heads of the Pantheons (Zeus, Odin > > True - but in most pantheons, they'd also be the most well-guarded. While > Some of these I could see being taken out, others not. Taking > these two, I'd suggest Zeus is probably gone, for three reasons. 1) He > seemed the type to get personally involved and try to really hold Mt. > Olympus, rather than retreat to the Marches. Definitely. (A lot of hotheaded and warrior-type gods would have gone down this way - as would those who were just 'holding the bridge' while the others in their pantheon escaped.) > 2) If he were still around, > we'd still be getting occasional children from him (). Who says we aren't? >;-) (Seriously, modern demigods... that's an interesting thought...) > And 3), > primarily, the historic note that Christianity per se largely started in > opposition to the Greek/Roman pantheon, so I suspect they were the first > ones targeted and probably mostly quashed if they didn't run...right about > during Constantine's reign. Yes, they'd be good targets. Uriel might well have started there, then taken out the other European pantheons, then slowly moved outwards... > Odin, on the other hand, I'd suggest is hanging out in the > Marches, biding his time. Trading depth perception for wisdom in a > warrior society seems like a real dumb move at first, but it shows he'd be > willing to make the compromises needed to stay functioning through the > years.. And the wisdom itself would help out quite a bit. (Gods of wisdom/ foresight/intelligence would also be on the list of likely survivors, whether on their own or defecting to the winners...) > > while they may not have been on God's level by the time Uriel was able to > > smite most of the mythical beasts, I'd still rank them with the Archangels > > and Demon Princes. I'd guess that the heads of some survived, while > Presonally, I'm considering the Old Gods to be about equivalent to > an Archangel one-on-one, but NOT in the sense of being able to empower as > many Servitors...in effect, able to match them only by being more > concentrated. Especially now, definitely. > > True. Though if some survived, there's some interesting possibilities - > > I'm currently thinking of a group of war gods of various pantheons > > conspiring to try to take back the Earth... > Heh...I like that...though enough of the war gods were of the kind > of stupid variety that they'd have gone down fighting. Some of the > craftier ones may well have gotten away, though. (Say, Ares is > gone..Athena's probably playing chess with Odin.) True... to tell the truth, the tricksters might be a better choice to pull together in one form or another. I know that *I'd* be afraid of *anything* Eris, Loki, Coyote, and a lord of the Kitsune (Japanese fox trickster-spirits) would come up with, even if they were all working towards their own ends... > Though, somewhat in line with your "Gods of War Society" thought, > there's the amusing idea of them banding together in patchwork > pantheons...(Odin watching over his own Sif, Isis and Bast, Venus, Hades, > and Legba..) Heck, just how the old gods get along is enough material for a book in itself. How they got along in the days before Uriel's crusade, what's happened in interpantheon relations since then, what the pantheons think of each other, relations between individual gods... There's a lot of ground that could be covered. Admittedly, the focus of the game is Angels and Demons, not Servitors of the Old Gods (though I'm starting to write up just what the Shinto Servitors might be like...), so we're not likely to see much of this, but it's fun to think about. - -- Scott Johnson | zagyg@io.com | This space intentionally left blank. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 00:43:21 -0500 (CDT) From: Scott Johnson Subject: RE: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Denis Sarrazin wrote: > From: Walt Mazur [SMTP:w_mazur@primenet.com] > > > >Another way of looking at it would be that God does indeed know everything that is going to happen, and that he knew it when he created humans. Humans still have free-will in that God does not control what they do, but that doesn't mean that God doesn't know what is going to happen - the two aren't really related, imo. > > Then that would mean that a human is only free to choose the one > deterministic choice, known but (supposedly) not controlled by God. Look at it this way - imagine there's someone who knows you *really* well. Maybe a spouse you've lived with for fifty years, maybe a truly brilliant psychologist with a nearly intuitive understanding of your mind, maybe someone else. This person sees you trying to make a choice of some sort. Knowing you, knowing how you generally react to things, knowing how you're likely to see this particular situation, and so forth, this person makes a prediction of what you're going to do, writes it down, and seals it in an envelope. You make the decision. Later, the person reveals what they did, and you find that the prediction is, in fact, what you did. (Assume no trickery or whatnot.) Did the act of writing down the prediction, or the act of studying you so the other person could make the prediction, somehow deprive you of free will? What if this person knew you well enough to be able to consistently figure out your choices in any given situation? Would you have no free will, or would you just accept this person knew you *really* well? Now imagine an intelligence so far beyond a human's it's nearly incomprehensible. One who can know *every* human better than any human knows itself. God can predict what a human can do - he doesn't choose it (though he could if he wanted to - see 'omnipotence'), but he will be able to 'guess', with 100% accuracy, what you'll do. No predestination, just a truly ludicrous knowledge of your psychological makeup. - -- Scott Johnson | zagyg@io.com | This space intentionally left blank. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 97 06:06:01 UT From: "MSN Member Support Kurt" Subject: IN> the Mouth of Madness Originally, I wrote: >I like this idea, should sort out some of the cockier Celestials. Considering >the Old Ones inhabited the Earth millions of years before the first trace of >man, they must have a bit of power behind them, even if they are >dead/sleeping. > Then Jeff wrote: >That's kinda what I was thinking. >I was thinking more along the lines of the adventurers finding a cult that >is getting very close to waking/creating one of them. I wonder if we could get some kind of unofficial Call of Cthulhu stuff for IN, have angels/demons trying to remove a common threat, maybe combining in the face of a greater peril than their opposite number. And sudenly, a third party enters the fray... >>I wonder if the Old Ones feed off the Essence of their worshippers/slaves like >>Impudites feed off people? >> >Maybe they can only do it once their Etherial Forces are gone (helplessly >insane). Does this mean that the Old Ones can then siphon out all Essence from their victims, effectively removing all life from them (anyone seen In The Mouth of Madness? Sam Neill looks like he's been sucked dry by the end of the film). Kurt White doombu@msn.com say something funny here... Doh! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 01:39:33 -0600 (MDT) From: Meera Barry Subject: IN> Word Flotsam in In Nomine Some original poster who was not named said: > > Hmmmm... I wonder... Words are not absolute, you know. They change > > and develop over time... Linguistic drift and all of that. The LintKing replied: > Heh...interesting point, actually. My immediate thought on it is > that it explains why the Word Bound are described as "Defending" their > Word. If they're affected by changes in the common definition, they'd be > well off to promote their vision of it... This suggestion that Words change over time led me down a particular path of (quite possibly wrongful) thinking. If the Words which are sung about in the Symphony change, the Symphony itself likely changes. With time, as Words begin to mean different things, and different things are represented with the Words, the overall melody has changed. If the melody has changed, the harmony also must have changed to continue with it. Harmonious Serenading within the Symphony is resonance, whereas being cacophonous is dissonance and eventually, Discord. (Is my cadence clear? ) Which makes me wonder... how much have resonances and that which causes dissonance changed over the millenia? If the Cherubim are resonant with the protection of something, did it drift from a specific? (The protection of Honor, for example.) Or from an even greater Idea? (Greater than a Word, after all, might have been a Sentence. After all, you can be Sentenced to death...and given only a Word of Warning.) Things that cause dissonance now, were they okay in earlier times, but the Symphony has changed around them? [I would say not; a good Symphony planned would likely incorporate changing times in its sequence, much as discordant themes over the same time may just look like imaginative solos. But, the speculation is fun.] \\ Mb \\---------------------------------------------mabarry@xpert.net (Inhume In Humour!) ALL HAIL MORTIJINGLE! (Or else.) Fairly High Priestess / Editor: jIg nOIr mELt (mnj) http://www.a-ztech.com/lintking/jnmmnj/index.html - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Check it out! Includes some silly In Nomine stuff, too! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 09:01:25 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) "All time exists as a whole, meaning that past, present, and future no longer pertain as terms. All time is one and IS. Thus it is predetermined, preordained." A number of philosophers, going at least as far back as Boethius in the 6th century, have pointed out that there is a difference between God KNOWING the future and God CAUSING the future. After all, even in quantum mechanics (which hardly need apply to the God Who established the laws of nature), although an observer may affect the thing observed, they do not determine the outcome of the event they observe. And, as a general rule, if I know something about the past or the present, I do not thereby cause it. God knows the future, but what He knows is, in part, our free choices. Good luck relating this to role-playing, but I guess it can be done. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 22:26:27 -0400 From: Stacy Stroud Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #192 [much snippage; I think the second part here is Perry Lloyd's, but I'm not sure who posted the first part] >>"Can God create a rock so heavy he can't lift it?" That's the exact >>paradox you're arguing about. "Can God make things so random he won't >>know the exact outcome?" It's the same thing... God's omnipotence >>pitted against itself. > >Of course He can, He's omnipotent! It just eapes human understandingg. >Or, alternatively, it's easy to make a rock so big you can't move it, >especially if you can choose how strong you are, Well, OK, God *could* make a really heavy rock and then *choose* to limit His own strength to less than that required to lift the rock, at least on a particular occasion. But by your own definition of omnipotence (God can choose to do anything), you must admit that God can also will Himself to be strong enough to *lift* that rock, even if he doesn't at this time for some reason. In my view, even omnipotence shouldn't allow for logical contradictions, which the rock example involves. The rock question is really another form of the classic "What happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object?" The answer is that the question is meaningless: if those terms mean what we usually understand them to mean, then both can never exist in the same reality. If the object (say, a heavy rock) is *truly* immovable, then no force can move it, and there *is no such thing* as an irresistible force, *by definition*. That object, at least, will resist *every* force, because it is *immovable*. On the other hand, if the force (say, an omnipotent God) is *truly* irresistible, then it can move *any* object, because nothing can resist it--so by definition, there is no such thing as an immovable object. Now, in the real world, we might have a *supposedly* immovable object and a *supposedly* irresistible force. But as soon as we bring them into contact, one of them is going to lose its title. >On Sun, 01 Jun 1997 22:44:00 EST, "PERRY M. LLOYD" > wrote: > >> Since God is >>(supposedly) a being which exists outside of TIME and sees it as a whole >>rather than the limited way which we view it, then all time might be said >>to exist at the same time, all points existing at the same time only we >>humans view it slowly as we move through it. All time exists as a whole, >>meaning that past, present, and future no longer pertain as terms. All >>time is one and IS. Thus it is predetermined, preordained. > >But that is only one of the possible ways God could have created time. >If it is the way He did create time, then free will is illusory: >Whatever we think or feel, we're only going to make the one choice God >put into the timeline; and since He's making the choice, the >responsibility is logically His as well. Granted, the single-timeline setup, with God knowing all from past to future at every moment, is only one possibility. However, your conclusion that under such a setup, free will would be illusory is (IMHO) wrong. In fact, you're making an incorrect assumption when you talk about God "putting" our choices into the timeline. The usual formulation of the single-timeline setup described above is that God exists in an "eternal Now," observing all of time as a whole at every moment. Therefore He sees what to us is past, present, and future all at once; however, there is no implication that he controls our actions. Let's say you have a videotape on which you recorded a role-playing session that you recently ran. You can now watch the tape however you want -- even fast-forward to the end. There's only one sequence of events on the tape. If you watch the end and then rewind to an earlier point, the participants are always going to do the same things and end up the same way. However, the session itself was improvisational: the participants chose their own actions and dialogue in order to reach their characters' goals. Just because you can *watch* the end of the tape, no one would say that you have control over the participants' actions. That's how God works in the usual version of the single-timeline setup: he *knows* the "ending," but does not determine it. Of course, the analogy is imperfect. If the universe really does work that way, then God watches his "tape" at the same time we live it, which is a little different than having a recording of something that already happened. Also, it is generally held that God himself can act on the "tape," while it is playing. Hmmm.... Let's pop into the realms of fantasy for a moment and give you, our intrepid GM, a time machine. You travel back in time to the day you ran the game, bonk your past self on the head and take his place at the session. You now know everything that your players will do, because you've watched the tape of the session that's being made right now. However, your players could not possibly argue that they don't have free will. Now, do *you* have free will? After all, you watched *yourself* on the tape as well. Surprisingly, I think the answer is "yes." A distinction must be made, however, between freely choosing your actions, on the one hand, and doing something different from what you saw on the tape, on the other. Remember, the tape is being made *now*, during the session. It's the same tape you've already watched. So whatever you do, and whatever the players do, goes on the tape and *becomes* what you already know. (We start butting up into the central paradox of time travel here: you can't deliberately set out to change anything because whatever you change becomes part of the history you remember. That doesn't mean you *can't* change things -- you have free will while living in the situation -- but you won't remember that things used to be different, any more than anyone else will.) Once again, the analogy is not perfect, because God doesn't have to deal with the central paradox of time travel. (Remember, the postulate is that He perceives and exists in all time at once.) But I think it shows how it is possible to *know* the future without *determining* the future, either for yourself or for others. And it'll be about now, I think, that Moriah whacks us all over the head for drifting from the list topic. Stacy Stroud sstroud@uky.campus.mci.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 10:06:54 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions Charybdis GreyDragon wrote: "But what about the deities of the major world religions that dominate the world today. I mean, by sheer number of followers, the people of the Book (Christians, Jews, and Muslims) are a MINORITY in the world today!" I seem to recall hearing statistics that contradict that. Christians and Moslems are both very numerous, especially if you include all the "nominal" ones. I think they may sum to over half the world. "So how does the system handle the majority of the people in the world-- the Hindus, the Buddhists, the Confucianists, the Taoists etc..." I really doubt there are a lot of practicing Taoists and Confucianists left in the world, but Hindus and Buddhists are certainly numerous. Confucianism, as I recall, is largely a system of ethics and politics. The religious dimension is ancestor worship. No problem, in terms of IN metaphysics, since a very large fraction of the souls of everybody's ancestors are still hanging around somewhere. Whether they should be worshipped or not, and what difference it makes if they are, are separate questions. The "should" can be debated among the characters. The game already includes a mechanic of saints and boddhisatvas by which some (at least) ancestral souls could respond to their descendants. Hinduism, Buddhism, and Taoism are all variations on a form of monism, rather as Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are variations on monotheism. All three of the former have a more abstract, philosophical level concerned with an ultimate reality the adherent seeks to join or become one with or in some sense realize. This higher level is always very mystical, and so the differences between it and the theology of monotheism can be left as a matter of debate among the characters. It need not be anything that shows up on the level of play. Below that abstract level, all three of these big oriental religions have colorful and diverse pantheons of gods, buddhas, bodhisatvas, saints, etc. These closely resemble, in general outline, the pantheons of other surviving paganisms, e.g. Shinto and the surviving native religions of the Americas, Africa, and Australia. I see four options: 1) These are the kind of creature that Uriel went gunning for, now generally found in the Marches, apparently Ethereal in nature. 2) These are garbled memories of Celestials. 3) These are deliberate propaganda figures put about by Infernals. 4) These are fictions. You can mix and match according to taste. So, for instance, you could have a campaign in which it turns out that Vishnu is the Hindu name for God (type 2), Ganesha is the Hindu name for Marc (type 2), Indra is an Ethereal being closely related to the late Zeus and now living in the Marches (type 1), Kali is a propaganda figure from Hell (type 3), and Hannuman is a fiction humans made up for themselves with no reality of any sort (type 4). But it seems to me that, if you want to play "In Nomine," you want to play a world where the IN description is the truth. If you want them all to be true, play "Mage: The Ascension" or something. If you prefer Hinduism, you could probably write up a very interesting game of your own. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #193 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.