From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Jun 3 20:33:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA28848 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 20:33:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA04107 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 18:53:12 -0500 Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 18:53:12 -0500 Message-Id: <199706032353.SAA04107@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #194 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, June 3 1997 Volume 01 : Number 194 In this digest: RE: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) IN> Changing Angelic Natures Re: IN> Examples of Evil Lillim Re: IN> The Song of Fire Re: IN> The Song of Fire Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) Re: IN> Geasa Re: IN> Geasa [none] IN> Deepest Apologies. Re: IN> Archetypes [long] Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions Re: IN> Word Flotsam in In Nomine Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions Re: IN> Kyriotate Remnants IN> Missing Lilim? Re: IN> Cosmology ad infinitum Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions Re: IN> Archetypes [long] Re: IN> Needs and Perception Re: IN> Geasa Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Questions Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #189 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 09:52:00 -0500 From: "Micah T.J. Jackson" Subject: RE: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) >On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Denis Sarrazin wrote: >Now imagine an intelligence so far beyond a human's it's nearly >incomprehensible. One who can know *every* human better than any human >knows itself. God can predict what a human can do - he doesn't choose it >(though he could if he wanted to - see 'omnipotence'), but he will be able >to 'guess', with 100% accuracy, what you'll do. No predestination, just a >truly ludicrous knowledge of your psychological makeup. True enough, except that the intelligence doesn't necessarily need to be greater, just more focused. Think about this. Your DOG (weird coincidence, huh?) can tell if you're getting off the couch to take him for a walk or to go to the fridge for another beer. He can do this becase he spends 90% of his time watching you, and learning. (10% eating, scratching, etc.) Now GOD, doesn't eat or scratch. He knows everyting about you for sure. More even than your dog... __________ __________ Micah T.J. Jackson micahj@io.com Director of Licensing and New Media P.O. Box 18957 Steve Jackson Games Austin, Texas 78760 http://www.sjgames.com (512) 447-7866 __________ __________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:57:30 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul F. Strack" Subject: IN> Changing Angelic Natures On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Meera Barry wrote: > Which makes me wonder... how much have resonances and > that which causes dissonance changed over the millenia? > If the Cherubim are resonant with the protection of > something, did it drift from a specific? (The protection > of Honor, for example.) Or from an even greater Idea? (Greater > than a Word, after all, might have been a Sentence. After > all, you can be Sentenced to death...and given only a Word > of Warning.) I am of the opinion that angels *have* changed over time, that angelic nature is different now than it was in the past. For example, before the existence of humanity, I think angels were not so anthropomorphic. However, spiritual beings are more closely tied to their natures than humans are. Angels have a great deal of difficulty conceiving of the sorts of beings they *used* to be, because they are too closely tied to the kinds of creatures they are *now*. This sort of thing allows for arguments like those made by the Pagan Gods: that Heaven did not always hold the place that is does now in the spiritual world. Angels deny this, but their memories can be fuzzy, so nobody is quite certain. Of course, Pagan spirits *also* have fuzzy memories, so *they* can be wrong too. Angels in the upper reaches of Heaven have a deeper connection to the Divine, so they have a better understanding of the true nature of reality. This includes most of the Archangels. However, to "descend" to the corporeal realms, they must accept a finite form, which forces them to give up much of their divinely inspired knowledge - at least temporarily. Note that this is *not* a question of "belief defines reality" a la Mage: the Ascension. Human belief is but a tiny part of a much larger current that shapes reality. Human belief and worship can influence the spirit world, but it is by no means the only thing that shapes it, or even necessarily the most important things. All of the above is, of course, IMHO. Paul Strack | Madness takes its toll. pfstrack@math.unc.edu | Please have exact change. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ World of Darkness Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/wod.html In Nomine Page: INC2 - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/innom/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:04:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Calabim@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Examples of Evil Lillim In a message dated 97-06-03 06:09:04 EDT, you write: << So far two Lillim have entered my cast: 1) Merideth, a "free" Lillim who is not at all nice. 2) A Lillim of Saminga, who has a hoarde of undead servitors, and sometimes wears a male vessel. >> So tell us about them! Don't just *tease* us with "She's not at all nice" ! WHY isn't she nice? What does she do that's so horrible and why does she do it? Actually I should practice what I preach. I'm sitting on a minor horde of things I might want to post, but can't till the current run of games is over. - -Calabim@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:14:31 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> The Song of Fire > BTW - has anyone else noticed that nobody actually seems to be creating Lilim > that are not either "bright" or "grey"? From reading the list alone, you > would assume that there wasn't a single Lilim left in Hell, they all seem to > have defected to Heaven or Earth. Maybe it's like trying to create a Malakim > who *isn't* a prat, and can't be done? I have several which, for ongoing campaign reasons, cannot be divulged at this time. Lilim are one of the _coolest_ Bands (although Kyriotates are still my favorite) and can be a lot of fun to play; unrepentant to the core. ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:28:52 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> The Song of Fire > Of course it's non-canon, anything not officially endorsed by SJG is > non-canon. I believe John Karrakash mentioned there may be other > situations in which celestial damage can be inflicted on a corporeal > form....but they will probably be rare, for the reasons you mentioned; a > Song that anyone can learn would result in a bunch of celestials who > specialize in blasting celestial vessels into Remnants. Yup. Happened during playtest on several occasions, hence the ruling. It was _frighteningly_ easy to kill almost anyone permanently by the playtest rules. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:11:31 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) > I don't think God could grant free will. If everything exists only > because he created it and he has omniscience (and therefore knows how > everything he creates will turn out) isn't he responsible for how it > all falls out? Since he knew what was going to happen, and could have > changed things beforehand so that they worked out differently? If he > is, then everything happens because that's the way he wanted it to > turn out. I don't see much free will there. And that isn't how it > works, then his knowledge is either less than omniscient or there > are things in existence not of his creation marring his work. This is all ignoring the concept of 'limited' omniscience and omnipotence. God _can_ make a rock too big to lift... if he chooses not to be strong enough to lift it. ;) Imagine God as the cosmic driving instructor. He's let the students take the wheel and is fiddling with the radio while they drive. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:32:50 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) > > Survival may well be Lilith's rationalization for siding with Hell, but I > > don't buy it as being exclusive of her also being spiteful, self-centered, > Barring the "and basically evil," which is the whole center of the > discussion, well, sure. Again, no one's suggesting that Lilith is > GOOD...just ambiguous. She actually pretty firmly leans toward evil. She's willing to forward Hell's plans and accept Lucifer's coin to further evil and suffering on earth for her own selfish gain. I'm not trying to paint her a total villainess here, but if she _wasn't_ promoting evil, the Big Red Cheese would have her forces on a spit in no time. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:24:51 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Geasa On Jun 1, 1:37pm, Leathal Weapon wrote: > Subject: IN> Geasa > With all the talk of Geasa that has been on the list of late, I've a > question that I'm not sure if anyone's asked or answered. If Geasa > can be cumulative, so if you have six level ones you can call them in > at once for a level 6, can a bigger geas be broken down. Say you > fulfill a major need from someone and get a geas 5 on them. Later on, > you need them to deliver a letter to someone they work with. Now this > is no trouble to them, hardly a level 1, but can you just invoke one > level of your level 5 and have a level 4 left? The canon answer is yes. Some people would much rather work off a large geas by any number of smaller favors rather than paying it all at once. Of course there are some who are just the opposite. Unfortunately for them it is the one who is owed the favor that gets to decide how it's cashed in. ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:39:37 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Geasa > I agree. The scale between a level 1 geas and a level 6 geas is just too > great. However, if you had a bunch of small ones you could threaten to > pester him continuously unless he did something major. I mean, if Joe > Celestial is on the trail of another Celestial (or in the middle of some > intregue) does he really want to take the time to go to Baskin Robbins to > pick up some chocolate fudge ice cream for you? Oh, but that's the FUN part. Any time you get into a debt like this, it is _always_ hanging over your head til completed. You can't even proactively pay it off; you have to wait til you are called. Using up a Geas/6 for a bunch of Geas/1 is a bit of a waste, really, but isn't that better than the alternative? - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 12:55:49 -0400 (EDT) From: campbellp@nku.edu Subject: [none] In the book, it says roles cost (3?) points per level, then on another page it says they cost level x status divided by two. What gives? Polly ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 13:22:12 -0300 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: IN> Deepest Apologies. I may have done something incredibly stupid, I'm not sure whether it has occured or not at this point, but if it has, it's likely o be obvious to everyone on the list, and I would like to apologize. At about 1PM EDT today, I was decideing on whether to make a switch between email clients, and I was experimenting with sending myself large email messages to see how the new client would deal with them. One of the large messages I used was the digest for this mailing list, Volume 1, #184, repeated several times. It is my greatest hope that this did not occur, but I believe I might have accidentally sent one copy of this document to the mailing list, as I was experimenting with a new client, and not precisely sure what I was doing. If I did, it was truly not my intention to flood the mailing list with something that had already been posted, and I apologize profusely for all the inconvenience and suffering it has caused. If, due to the Grace of God, the message was not sent, I ask you to please disregard this message, I apologize for making this off-topic post, and know that I will be significantly more careful in messing with new Email clients in the future. Sincerely, Nana Yaw Ofori nofori@pop3.utoledo.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jun 97 13:46 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Archetypes [long] >DIVINE SIDE >Choir: >Real Men play Malakim. >Real Roleplayers play Mercurians. >Loonies play Ofanim. ...or Kyriotates or Relievers >Munchkins play Malakim with 6 Corporeal Forces and Level Six gun talismans Nah, Munchkins play God, of course. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 12:37:40 -0500 From: Charybdis GreyDragon Subject: Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions [Charybdis] >> I do have one major question as to the In Nomine universe... How does the >>system deal with other major ACTIVE religions? >> Buddhism does not really have gods, it's people are more or less trying to >>better themselves and living out cycles of live, and don't really have >>gods, but the Celestials can hardly just ignore all these people who >>constitutes the largest single religious block in the world... >> And what about the Hindus. The Hindu religion is still very much active, >>so it's deities are unlike to have been smiled and driven from the >>Corporeal realm. And it definitely DOES have deities... Man, do the Hindus >>ever have deities! Thousands of them! Do we assume that Vishnu is God and >>the other minor Hindu deities are just analogs for the Angels and Demons? [Charles Badger] >How do we know that each religion isn't just another way of looking at the >same gods and servants? We don't... That was one possibility I had considered. It does work rather well for Hinduism, actually. Since all the various lesser deities in Hinduism are considered to merely be aspects of Vishnu.. The Hindus have no problem with reconciling the 1000 gods and 1 God idea... The lesser gods, could, arguably be the embodiments of Words-- the angels and demons... But if that were the case, why would Uriel have needed to banished the "gods" of ancient religion to the Far Reaches... If the Olympic gods are merely another way of viewing Angels/Demons, then why banish them? Unless they began to believe their own propaganda and think they could really rival God... Hmmmm... [Charles Badger] >Also if there are several thousands of them that means each one doesn't have >a lot of followers if each deity can only count the faithful worshippers for >what level of power they currently have. Except that the Hindus have no problem worshipping multiple deities at once... they see all deities as specific aspects of the Divine... So, they really don't believe less in the other aspects that they chose not to honor, they simply honor the aspects they respect, love, fear, what have you, the most... Peace, Charybdis GreyDragon karydbis@phoenix.net ** "God doesn't play dice with the universe; but we do." ** ** --Derek Pearcy ** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 12:50:24 -0500 From: Charybdis GreyDragon Subject: Re: IN> Word Flotsam in In Nomine [Meera Barry] >Some original poster who was not named said: >> > Hmmmm... I wonder... Words are not absolute, you know. They change >> > and develop over time... Linguistic drift and all of that. That would have been me, Charybdis GreyDragon... Pleased to make your acquaintance... >The LintKing replied: >> Heh...interesting point, actually. My immediate thought on it is >> that it explains why the Word Bound are described as "Defending" their >> Word. If they're affected by changes in the common definition, they'd be >> well off to promote their vision of it... [Meera Barry] > This suggestion that Words change over time led me down > a particular path of (quite possibly wrongful) thinking. Go for it... It's this sort of odd rambling thought that keeps me up at night-- and spawns really cool adventures... :) [Meera Barry] > If the Words which are sung about in the Symphony change, > the Symphony itself likely changes. With time, as Words > begin to mean different things, and different things are > represented with the Words, the overall melody has changed. Yeah, that is likely true... [Meera Barry] > If the melody has changed, the harmony also must have changed > to continue with it. Harmonious Serenading within the Symphony > is resonance, whereas being cacophonous is dissonance and > eventually, Discord. (Is my cadence clear? ) Yes, actually... We're on the same sheet of music here... [Meera Barry] > Which makes me wonder... how much have resonances and > that which causes dissonance changed over the millennia? > If the Cherubim are resonant with the protection of > something, did it drift from a specific? (The protection > of Honor, for example.) Or from an even greater Idea? (Greater > than a Word, after all, might have been a Sentence. After > all, you can be Sentenced to death...and given only a Word > of Warning.) Could be... And to tie this in with my other major question about the game system-- Maybe it was changes in the Symphony itself that necessitated the banishment of the older gods, but which left some of the newer ones that seem quite similar alive and kicking.... [Meera Barry] > Things that cause dissonance now, were they okay in earlier > times, but the Symphony has changed around them? Could be... and vice versa. Some things that were once unheard of might now be acceptable.. [Meera Barry] > [I would say not; a good Symphony planned would likely > incorporate changing times in its sequence, much as > discordant themes over the same time may just look like > imaginative solos. But, the speculation is fun.] > Yeah, it is fun... and pretty much why I threw out the concept of Linguistic Drift in the first place... Peace, Charybdis GreyDragon karydbis@phoenix.net ** "God doesn't play dice with the universe; but we do." ** ** --Derek Pearcy ** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 13:17:16 -0500 From: Charybdis GreyDragon Subject: Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions >Charybdis GreyDragon wrote: > "But what about the deities of the major world religions that dominate > the world today. I mean, by sheer number of followers, the people of > the Book (Christians, Jews, and Muslims) are a MINORITY in the world > today!" [Earl Wajenberg] >I seem to recall hearing statistics that contradict that. Christians >and Moslems are both very numerous, especially if you include all the >"nominal" ones. I think they may sum to over half the world. Not according to my religion professor in college. The Buddhists are, as I recall, the most numerous worldwide... But that's not really the major point anyway... The point is really that a significant portion of the world's population are *NOT* people of the Book. [Charybdis] > "So how does the system handle the majority of the people in the > world-- the Hindus, the Buddhists, the Confucianists, the Taoists > etc..." [Earl Wajenberg] >I really doubt there are a lot of practicing Taoists and Confucianists >left in the world, but Hindus and Buddhists are certainly numerous. I don't know the statistics on what percentage of the Chinese population follows each of which religion/philosophy, but those numbers alone begin to rival the people of the Book right there. [Earl Wajenberg] >Confucianism, as I recall, is largely a system of ethics and politics. That's true... and is one reason I was willing to set them aside for the time being... [Earl Wajenberg] >The religious dimension is ancestor worship. No problem, in terms of >IN metaphysics, since a very large fraction of the souls of everybody's >ancestors are still hanging around somewhere. I hadn't thought about that... And if worship really does grant the object of workshop Essence (as someone in this list suggested), then they might even stay around longer... Perhaps eventually even strengthens into Relievers or the like... [Earl Wajenberg] > Whether they should be worshipped or not, and what difference it makes if they are, are >separate questions. The "should" can be debated among the characters. True... [Earl Wajenberg] >The game already includes a mechanic of saints and boddhisatvas by >which some (at least) ancestral souls could respond to their >descendants. Yeah, I had forgotten about that as they were only mentioned in passing... [Earl Wajenberg} >Hinduism, Buddhism, and Taoism are all variations on a form of monism, >rather as Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are variations on monotheism. >All three of the former have a more abstract, philosophical level >concerned with an ultimate reality the adherent seeks to join or >become one with or in some sense realize. This higher level is always >very mystical, and so the differences between it and the theology of >monotheism can be left as a matter of debate among the characters. >It need not be anything that shows up on the level of play. I mainly brought up the speculation as I am *sure* it will arise among the players in my group. Our group is predominantly NON-Christian. (Our regulars are a die-hard atheist, a devoutly practicing Wiccan, a semi-practicing cultural Jew, a non-practicing follower of Native American Spiritualism, and a half-hearted cultural Christian). I know that it is just a matter of time before one of them wants to play a spirit, angel, soldier-of-god, or what have you that serves another pantheon... It's just gonna take long enough for them to get comfortable with the mechanics... So I thought I'd start seeking answers now--before they threw out the question... [Earl Wajenberg] >Below that abstract level, all three of these big oriental religions >have colorful and diverse pantheons of gods, buddhas, bodhisatvas, >saints, etc. These closely resemble, in general outline, the pantheons >of other surviving paganisms, e.g. Shinto and the surviving native >religions of the Americas, Africa, and Australia. I see four options: >1) These are the kind of creature that Uriel went gunning for, now >generally found in the Marches, apparently Ethereal in nature. I had thought that too... But I rather assumed that the ones banished were the pantheons of *dead* religions. One would assume that the pantheons of currently popular religions still held some real power in the Celestial realms... [Earl Wajenberg] >2) These are garbled memories of Celestials. A possibility, but that rather trivializes several of the world's major religions... [Earl Wajenberg] >3) These are deliberate propaganda figures put about by Internals. A rather frightening possibility considering the sheer number of believers... [Earl Wajenberg] >4) These are fictions. Again, a frightening possibility considering the number of followers... [Earl Wajenberg] >You can mix and match according to taste. So, for instance, you >could have a campaign in which it turns out that Vishnu is the >Hindu name for God (type 2), Ganesha is the Hindu name for Marc (type >2), Indra is an Ethereal being closely related to the late Zeus and now >living in the Marches (type 1), Kali is a propaganda figure from Hell >(type 3), and Hannuman is a fiction humans made up for themselves with >no reality of any sort (type 4). Hmmmm.... an interesting possibility. [Earl Wajenberg] >But it seems to me that, if you want to play "In Nomine," you want >to play a world where the IN description is the truth. If you want >them all to be true, play "Mage: The Ascension" or something. If you >prefer Hinduism, you could probably write up a very interesting game >of your own. It's not so much that I prefer Hinduism-- in fact Hinduism baffles me even more than the traditional Western religions do-- just that I have an odd way of seeing several sides of an issue at the same time. I can often see the validity of multiple levels of Truth... I mean, if one takes the Hindu (and the Wiccan for that matter) concept that all gods are ONE god, then there is no real problem... save that the Celestials all become pieces of God..... And then there would be the questions of why God would banish part of Himself... Don't mind me.. I tend to think in circles... Anyway, I was mainly trying to come up with ideas to cope with the issues that have not yet (but considering our most enthusiastic player is a die-hard Wiccan) most likely will, I was looking for answers in advance.... Your combined approach would likely work well... But the matter will take more thought..... Peace, Charybdis GreyDragon karydbis@phoenix.net ** "God doesn't play dice with the universe; but we do." ** ** --Derek Pearcy ** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jun 97 15:08 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotate Remnants [list of Kyrio Remnant options deleted] I like this one: > 4) The Kyriotate remains in the vessel, but the mind of the Host >returns, the remnantized Kyrio sits in the back of the host's mind, kind of >as a split-personality type thing. Or it may manifest as sleepwalking behavior. ...mostly because it (a) gives the Kyrio the same sort of survival other angels get and (b) it is probably the most interesting from a roleplaying point of view. Also, this isn't too far off what Shedim do, and Shedim are also "broken" Kyrios.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jun 97 16:03 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: IN> Missing Lilim? >BTW - has anyone else noticed that nobody actually seems to be creating Lilim >that are not either "bright" or "grey"? From reading the list alone, you >would assume that there wasn't a single Lilim left in Hell, they all seem to >have defected to Heaven or Earth. Maybe it's like trying to create a Malakim >who *isn't* a prat, and can't be done? I think it's mostly because people play PCs on the light side of the Force. I fully intend to have some nasty Lilim NPCs in my game background as things evolve. But I think it's quite clear from various bits in the IN book that Lilim are intended to be an additional option for a quasi-mixed party. The other trend I'm noticing, in my game at least, is everyone wants to play a "weird" character. No one is really taking "straight" angels. The closest thing I have to a "normal" PC in my group right now is an Ofanite of Litheroy. Since Lilim are easy "weird" characters, they draw a lot of attention. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jun 97 15:45 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Cosmology ad infinitum >On Thursday, Jeff wrote >"If belief ir even just thinking about them *can* create "gods" in the >Marches then I can see the posibility of some Cthuloid beings in Beleth's >realm." > >I like this idea, should sort out some of the cockier Celestials. Considering >the Old Ones inhabited the Earth millions of years before the first trace of >man, they must have a bit of power behind them, even if they are >dead/sleeping. > >What a scenario - Cthulhu wakes up and finds out some upstart called Yahweh >trashing his planet fighting some other little nobody called Lucifer. Cthulhu >calls in the big guns; Azathoth, Nyarlathotep, Shub- Niggurath... >Of course, if the Elder Gods also got in on the action, I don't think there >would be much left of the Earth to fight over. This isn't much of a problem if we're using the "human belief creates Ethereals" model; i.e., the "God really is God" monotheistic scenario. After all, how many Cthulhu worshipers are there, really? On the other hand, if mass numbers of humanity thinking about something creates Ethereal beings, then there are a number of more probable Ethereal "gods" of significant power: - E.T. - Darth Vader - Mr. Spock - James Bond - Kermit the Frog - Freddy Kruger (I think it is -- the guy from all those horror flicks) Hmmm... maybe Nybbas is trying to take over the Ethereal Realm. Now that's *really* scary.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 15:44:50 +0500 From: "James Rand" Subject: Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions > But if that were the case, why would Uriel have needed to banished the > "gods" of ancient religion to the Far Reaches... If the Olympic gods are > merely another way of viewing Angels/Demons, then why banish them? Unless > they began to believe their own propaganda and think they could really > rival God... Hmmmm... Or maybe the various Hindu dieties are really that culture's perception of Celestials, but the various gods of the Olympic, Asgardian, etc pantheons were something else. Not every non-Christian religion has to be the result of the same kind of entity. This is all very interesting, but is anyone actually using it in their games? Has anyone run a game that uses a cosmology similar to the Sandman comics, where God is God and he is the Supreme Being and monotheism is correct, but the gods of the various other pantheons still run their own realms and interact with the celestial and occasionally mortal realms? Would anyone be interested in seeing In Nomine rules for servitors of the old gods? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:59:30 -0700 (MST) From: shadocat@primenet.com (Jeff Miller) Subject: Re: IN> Archetypes [long] >Vessels: >Loonies like Strength/6 mice (with the Corporeal Song of Levitation!). What a *neat* idea! -- Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:59:52 -0700 (MST) From: shadocat@primenet.com (Jeff Miller) Subject: Re: IN> Needs and Perception >>in response to the vampire and needs, no. he could fulfill the need >>during the night so that the next sunset he gets essence. but can a >>vampire have another need, instead of blood? > >Oh, yes indeed. A lot of good, nasty ones come to mind, spinal fluid, >pus, flesh, ^^^^^ Thus a ghoul would be written up as a vampire with the need for rotting flesh. I can see that working. -- Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:58:14 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Geasa At 1:37 PM +0000 6/1/97, Leathal Weapon wrote: >With all the talk of Geasa that has been on the list of late, I've a >question that I'm not sure if anyone's asked or answered. If Geasa >can be cumulative, so if you have six level ones you can call them in >at once for a level 6, can a bigger geas be broken down. Say you >fulfill a major need from someone and get a geas 5 on them. Later on, >you need them to deliver a letter to someone they work with. Now this >is no trouble to them, hardly a level 1, but can you just invoke one >level of your level 5 and have a level 4 left? For fulfilling a Need, I'd say no, myself -- but asking for a "lesser" favor might be worth a bonus for making sure the Geas "sticks." (And never underestimate the power of being pleasant and asking, "Hey, could you drop this letter off with your co-worker for me? Thanks!" Who needs Geasa, sometimes?) [I'm probably going to osciliate on the above opinion depending on the phase of the moon, though...] For trading around Geasa and the Geasa imposed on Lilim (held by Lilith), I'd say that they can *definitely* be broken down into separate bits. (So instead of 9 Geas/3, Lilith really holds (9 * 3) Geas/1s, or a "Geas/27"... Which can be mixed and matched any way she wants.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 16:58:49 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions Charybdis GreyDragon wrote: "Perhaps [ancestral spirits] eventually even strengthens into Relievers or the like..." According to Moriah, there is a permanent qualitative difference between human souls and celestials, but "or the like" leaves you some stretch, I guess. ">2) These are garbled memories of Celestials. A possibility, but that rather trivializes several of the world's major religions... Well, multiple levels of truth are all very nice, but if you encounter conflicting descriptions of the same thing, then either everybody is equally wrong (or metaphorical), or someone is nearer right than the others. ">3) These are deliberate propaganda figures put about by Infernals. A rather frightening possibility considering the sheer number of believers... Yes. You want an even more frightening idea? What if some are propaganda figures put about by the Heavenly side? You say you LIKE paranoia fantasies?... Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 15:09:44 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Questions At 9:36 PM -0600 5/29/97, Kingsley Lintz wrote: >> Way I see it, other demons make jokes about that, while Lilim >> scoff that some things are *too* trivial. And then, amongst > I think the Lilim mostly remember which demons scoffed, and then >when THEY need a favor.."Oh? Are you sure that isn't too..trivial? I >don't know.." Oh, of *course* Lilim remember... They remember all *kinds* of debts... "You offed my last vessel, prepare to die..." >> themselves (their fellow Lilim), they keep careful track of >> those unofficial favors... "It's your turn to get the pizza, > I think it's probably considered very crass for a Lilim to Geas >another Lilim, but probably equally rude for one to not honor favors >anyway... Oh, you don't *Geas* a sister -- you just *ask* for that Geas/1 favor, then do what was asked... ("Hey, can you go strew those banana peels in front of that doorway while I'm rigging up the pail here?" "Uh, a Malakite lives there, right, K.K.?" "Yeah, but he's out of the apartment right now." "Okay, I'll swap you for it, just in case he comes home." "Fair. An hour of my time later?" "For this banana peel thing. I pledge." "Same here.") - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:53:08 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #189 At 9:44 AM -0400 5/31/97, Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: >>Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 20:40:15 -0600 (MDT) >>From: Kingsley Lintz >>Subject: Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) >> >>> >>>Nope. It is designed to _enforce_ a relatively fair deal.<<< >>> Nope, it is designed to enforce whatever deal the Lilim makes, whether it's >>> fair or not. >> I don't know - a Lilim can only enforce a Geas of a level, based >>on their ability, equal to the Need she fulfilled - which was based on >>their requirements. It's hard to think of anything intrinsically fairer. > > One of the reasons it's not fair is that, even if you know that the >person is a Lilim, and even if she tells you that "I'm geasing you for >this," you don't have the option of simply saying "No." I would think you might -- you're missing option 6: Tell Vinnie that the debt is not paid -- he just got "free money" from the Lilim and Joe Human is going to pay that cash out *himself*. If Joe **really means it** [this might require a Will roll for the average human, depending on the circumstances; bonuses if you know the Lilim's a demon!], then I wouldn't make the Geas stick -- Joe will still owe the money, having refused the "gift." (He had better start that payment plan quick, though.) [...] > Take this example: Joe Human needs forty thousand dollars to pay off his >gambling debts. Jane Lilim sees the Need in his eyes, and decides the best >way to get him to owe her one is to pay off his debts herself. > Joe's options to avoid being Geased, if he finds out what's going on, >are the following... [...] > 5) Resist. The Lilim probably wouldn't take dissonance from Option #6, though -- instead of a lashback effect, there's just no "handle" for the Geas to latch onto. So she just gets to feel really dumb... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #194 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.