From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Jun 4 20:19:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA28731 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 20:19:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA12564 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 18:17:37 -0500 Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 18:17:37 -0500 Message-Id: <199706042317.SAA12564@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #196 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, June 4 1997 Volume 01 : Number 196 In this digest: Re: IN> Missing Lilim? Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... Re: IN> Cosmology ad infinitum IN> Meow! A favor/request... Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #190 IN> Big Sad Kyrio Question Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) Re: IN> Lilim are Evil! (What, all of them?) [No Free Will digressions] Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #192 IN> Freedom, Selfishness, and Evil (Lilith) IN> More WORD Flotsam RE: IN> But what about OTHER active religions IN> Calabite of *who?* Re: IN> Missing Lilim? IN> The Eight Hundred Myriads Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions IN> Know Your Diabolicals #7 (Jean) Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions Re: IN> Lilim are Evil! (What, all of them?) [No Free Will digressions] Re: IN> Calabite of *who?* Re: IN> Missing Lilim? Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #190 Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... Re: IN> Big Sad Kyrio Question Re: IN> Cosmology ad infinitum Re: IN> Lilim are Evil! (What, all of them?) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 22:38:48 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Missing Lilim? > The other trend I'm noticing, in my game at least, is everyone wants to > play a "weird" character. No one is really taking "straight" angels. Well, In Nomine is (at least for me) a relatively new game. Most of the gamers I know have an immediate reflexive urge to start making characters that don't fit in with the expectations of the system... It takes me a while to settle down and start working on making fairly ordinary characters interesting anyway. Honestly, my general thought is that making, say, a Malakim of Laurence who kills demons is..redundant. You hardly have to MAKE that character; dozens of them are hanging out in the background of the text with no generation needed. Making a Malakim of Novalis who believes that most demons are misguided, not evil, and have to be given a serious chance at Redemption before you blast them into oblivion...that just strikes me as more interesting, and much more a character I have to actually add to the world myself. There IS also the standard note for almost any RPG that the player characters ARE the exceptions; that's some of what gets them involved in adventures. The standard Malakim of Laurence might be great for an adventure that consists of popping down to earth and offing a couple demons, but the Servitor of Novalis can find himself in much stranger situations. [Of course, from a GM's perspective, there's always the greater amusement of having the MoL start running into, say, his old, now Fallen, girlfriend, or return to Heaven only to be severely chastised by Laurence Himself on the grounds that the Calabim of the War he just offed had been -one step- away from Redemption, after years of careful tending, and was just loaded with information that, frankly, Laurence and Michael had been REALLY looking forward to...But, then, I play a lot of Amber, too.] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 04:46:12 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... On Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:00:07 -0700 (MST), shadocat@primenet.com (Jeff Miller) wrote: >Yep. It's good form for a Ky to perform the guys job (or leave a really >good excuse) if it has to be in a host for an extended length of time. And with the host's memories and skills unavailable, how is it you're planning on accomplishing that? :) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 22:50:51 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Cosmology ad infinitum > On the other hand, if mass numbers of humanity thinking about something > creates Ethereal beings, then there are a number of more probable > Ethereal "gods" of significant power: I feel compelled to point out that there's a vast difference between "thinking about" and "believing in," let alone "worshipping." When people think about most of your examples (E.T. or Darth Vader, say), inherent in the thought is the concept of them as pure fantasy, which I'd suggest is NOT very conducive to adding reality. Purely within the Ethereal Realms they very well MAY have some strength, because they probably turn up in enough people's dreams, but...actual power? Nah. By contrast, there are people who actually believe in and follow Bast, Kali, Loki, etc. THAT I could see as giving them the Essence needed to...well, to do things. Empower Servitors, reach out occasionally and meddle with the Symphony, et cetera. Note that I'm not so much going purely on the "belief defines reality" basis for this. Rather, I like the idea that the beings are formed, even like E.T. and Darth Vader, in the Ethereal Realm just from people thinking and dreaming about them...but it's the actual worshipping (and proferring of Essence, by whatever Rites it may be done) that then brings them above that level. PERSONALLY, I would then hold that yes, this is how God attained his current prestige, and why He stands at the apex of several major religions. (For the major example, Christianity just wasn't reaching the tribes of the middle east, so Yves pulled Gabriel aside and said, "Alright, let's give them THIS set of views, and just make sure they still consider us on top of things." It doesn't so much matter HOW you worship as WHO.) But that's just me; the overall idea that followers give Essence which, of course, gives (rather, is) power...I, at least, think holds just as well under the more absolutist view that God is and always has been everything he's cracked up to be. {Sorry; I know you were kidding. I hadn't meant to get into quite that serious a response, but...} ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 01:01:45 -0400 From: Kevin Pack Subject: IN> Meow! A favor/request... Oooh! Someone on MSN! Hey, if I send you a check or money order for $5 or whatever the price is, would you order and send the Cat Lovers Pack for greetings workshop to me? Just had to ask, you know. :) Kevin, also on the In Nomine list...but a lurker. And cat nut. > - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- . o O ( PURRRRRRRR ) - --------------------------------------------- |\ _,,,---,,_ kpack@future.atlcom.net /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ "Dreaming Catnip Dreams" |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' http://www.io.com/~kpack/ ------------------'---''(_/--' `-'\_) - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 23:19:33 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions > But if that were the case, why would Uriel have needed to banished the > "gods" of ancient religion to the Far Reaches... If the Olympic gods are > merely another way of viewing Angels/Demons, then why banish them? Unless Heh..MaBarry and I just had a brief discussion to the note that that might have been why Uriel had to be recalled...if the other pantheons really were just angels wearing funny costumes, and Uriel heard about them as "other Gods" and went on a rampage, hacking apart perfectly legitimate angels who were just doing their job... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 22:58:50 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #190 > Lilim are cool and look good in leather and lace. Heh...I think that sums it up pretty well, actually... > >would do anyway. When's the last time a player said, "Oh, I've been > >captured? Sucks. Well, I give up."?!? > Sometimes "playing dead" or biding your time can be useful -- and Oh, I've seen the CHARACTER say, "Sucks, well, I give up," but it's really bound to be part of a plan to get away...at worst, an expectation of being rescued. > >theoretically MIGHT be a problem, except all you have to do is freely > >negotiate that you will... > Hopefully getting some additional bennies out of it later, if you're > good... Well, or if you're not so good.. > Now there's an evil thing to do -- lock the Gray Renegade (serving > Freedom, theoretically) and the Ofanite in together and watch the > fun... Heck, and a kender. > And they say *demons* are evil. "They" who? Certainly no Balseraph *I*'ve talked to recently... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 05:19:34 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: IN> Big Sad Kyrio Question On Tue, 3 Jun 1997 21:05:19 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >And, if you must continue it, um, well... What about under a >different title, eh? Speaking of big sad Kyrios, here's another big sad Kyrio question: How many combat actions does a Kyrio get per round? One per host? One per force? I'm particularly thinking of the case where a Kyrio wants to possess hosts during combat. Suppose a 9 force Kyrio is in two 1 force birds: how many more 1 force birds can he possess in one combat round? 1? 2? 7? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 23:24:15 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) John Karakash responded to me with; > > Barring the "and basically evil," which is the whole center of the > > discussion, well, sure. Again, no one's suggesting that Lilith is > > GOOD...just ambiguous. > to paint her a total villainess here, but if she _wasn't_ promoting > evil, the Big Red Cheese would have her forces on a spit in no > time. I think you're sorely underestimating Lucifer on this. He's a Balseraph, not a Calabim. Just having her, however nominally, "on his side" does lend some strength to his cause, and almost certainly annoys the heck out of the Divines. Beyond that, there's the fact that she insists on just setting her Lilim free to fend for themselves. Her motives in this are an aspect of the importance she sets on Freedom; to Lucifer, it means he gets to catch most of THEM for his side, even if he doesn't really have their Mother. And, like I said, I like the idea that the reason the Lilim themselves tend towards evil is because Lucifer tricked her. Not so much as a defense of Lilith as to build up Lucifer's reputation... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 04:46:21 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Evil! (What, all of them?) [No Free Will digressions] On Tue, 3 Jun 1997 16:21:16 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >*YOU* may think of [Lilith] as spiteful, but there is nothing in the *text* >that suggests she is anything *worse* than uncaring. (And some things >that *could* suggest she is *better*, in her own skewed Word-enhancing >way.) > >As individual GMs, you can make her the B!tch-Queen of Hell with a >serious case of PMS about humanity, while I turn her into someone >who made a bad choice long ago and is looking for a way out of her >bargain covertly, or Kingsley () makes her an uncaring and >elemental force as unpredictable as Gabriel. The text supports >*none* of these options over any other. I think Lilith can go still farther into Brightness. Suppose, way back when, Dominic told Lilith, "You can only be as free as my rules allow," while Lucifer let her be completely free, including free of Asmodeus? So, Lilith is just opting for the greatest freedom for her operations. Heaven and Hell bid for her, and Hell won. Another point that hasn't been much mentioned is that demons are as much a part of God's creation as angels. Omnipotent God could toast them in a heartbeat, so He must be leaving them around for some divine Purpose. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 23:14:38 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions > >and Moslems are both very numerous, especially if you include all the > >"nominal" ones. I think they may sum to over half the world. > point anyway... The point is really that a significant portion of the > world's population are *NOT* people of the Book. Definitely. Even if we accept the "over half the world" figure, that's still ALMOST half the world who isn't... > Spiritualism, and a half-hearted cultural Christian). I know that it is > just a matter of time before one of them wants to play a spirit, angel, > soldier-of-god, or what have you that serves another pantheon... It's just Being that I keep wanting to play servitors for other pantheons myself, I've been giving it a good bit of thought...my favorite way of handling it at this stage really is to treat the other Gods as about par with the Archangels in practice. On a global scale, they'd be significantly weaker (though I say that largely because I've been considering ones from mainly dead religions; it may be different for one with a stronger following), but it would mostly manifest in that they can empower FEWER Servitors...not that they empower them less. Mostly what they'd end up with, I think, would be minor spirits and human followers; when they get the rare opportunity of an Outcast or Renegade wanting to come over to them, I think they'd pounce on it. So from that view, it's mostly a matter of figuring out what attunements and rites they might have to offer. (And then of dodging all the other angels and demons who aren't going to be happy with you.) > I mean, if one takes the Hindu (and the Wiccan for that matter) concept > that all gods are ONE god, then there is no real problem... save that the > Celestials all become pieces of God..... And then there would be the > questions of why God would banish part of Himself... Don't mind me.. I > tend to think in circles... What, you never play chess against yourself? Look at it this way; if God had any intention of giving free will, that would seem to entail providing an alternate side to be chosen, wouldn't it? [I kind of like the idea of the angels all being bits of God as a plausible explanation for where He went...] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 01:46:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Calabim@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... Y'know, I was just thinking...it'd be pretty amusing if SJG made a running tally and told us sometime just HOW MANY kyriotate/shedite questions have been asked, vrs questions about other choirs... - -Calabim@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 01:01:01 EST From: "PERRY M. LLOYD" Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #192 > I'm reading an incredible book about it - Jack Miles' "God - A >biography." It's an analysis of God as a literary character; his >ambitions, wishes, thoughts and personality. It's sometimes hard to read >(it's a huge piece of work - about 500 pages), but I think it's worth >it. > Just to give you a taste of the book, it reads just in the >beginning: "It's strange to say that, but God is no saint." Yes, this >book is cool! > > Andre Ribeiro Very cool. :) Perry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 00:04:40 -0600 (MDT) From: Meera Barry Subject: IN> Freedom, Selfishness, and Evil (Lilith) John Karakash suggested (regarding Lilith's predisposition)... > She actually pretty firmly leans toward evil. She's willing > to forward Hell's plans and accept Lucifer's coin to further evil > and suffering on earth for her own selfish gain. I'm not trying > to paint her a total villainess here, but if she _wasn't_ promoting > evil, the Big Red Cheese would have her forces on a spit in no > time. I usually like to paint the "selfishness is evil," commentary so that I can explain why I think children are evil by nature, especially at the youngest of ages. Infants for the needs of SURVIVAL (and survival must then be selfish, for you thusly serve the needs of yourself over others if you are in such a desperate situation) are completely selfish. They want food. They want it now. They want attention. They want it now. And it's more than a "want," for them; it has become a specific "NEED" until they can function on their own. Freedom's a real scary thing. I'm an old "V for Vendetta" fan. First thing I thought, when I heard this argument was V's caution: "What is Justice without Freedom?" There is no neutrality here. If one is not for God, they are either dead (or worse!), or in Lucifer's service. Lilith was WILLFULL... she wasn't going to go with the plan. She also wasn't going to lie down and die. So? She made a choice. She made a bargain...lots of people make bargains. And if she suffers for it, she got what she wanted. That's more than a lot of people get... She also has power. Would Lucifer have given her the Word if it did not gain for him? Certainly not. Who was she before? *WHAT* was she before? Did it suit Lucifer simply to corrupt God's works? Or was it a brilliant capture of one of God's pawns? The rulebook canon suggests pretty much that Lilith continues to benefit from the deal. Could she use the power of the Word against Lucifer? Or, better yet, how could she TRULY HAVE the Word of Freedom, if she's just as enslaved to the ideaology of evil (or good, or both...?) (What if she IS trying to make a grey side? Heh. "Don't follow that God fellow... OR that Lucifer fellow... don't be bound to their ideas. Be free.") \\ Mb \\ mabarry@xpert.net All SORTS of evil ideas...er, good ideas... er, freedom with the system. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 00:13:22 -0600 (MDT) From: Meera Barry Subject: IN> More WORD Flotsam From: Charybdis GreyDragon > Pleased to make your acquaintance... Well, where the LintKing is, I generally am hiding in the Shadows, and, kind of vice versa. > > Things that cause dissonance now, were they okay in earlier > > times, but the Symphony has changed around them? > Could be... and vice versa. Some things that were once unheard of > might now be acceptable.. The Symphony also could have been louder in the past; which would suggest that it would have been harder to "hear" disturbances, or that the Songs in it were played more often. Yep -- haven't had the book for more'n three months and I'm already trying to port it to different times and merging it with other systems. (Precedence's "Immortal" comes immediately to mind.) But to think, a sort of medieval "Inquisition Era" game, where BLATANT interventions from both sides are more likely, well, it suggests to me that dissonance wasn't the same then...neither will it be in my "Heavenly Throne War" Rapture adventure... What's going to make my head ache is to decide how things changed, why, and what the playing consequences will be. On the other hand, it might mean new choirs/bands, new Words, and all the fun stuff. \\ Mb \\ mabarry@xpert.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 11:15:21 +0100 From: Niall Teasdale Subject: RE: IN> But what about OTHER active religions Actually, this makes a lot of sense when you consider the history of Christianity's spread across the globe. (Maybe it stems from the Roman habit of absorbing other peoples' gods.) They tend to absorb local gods into the Church by calling them saints or demons, depending upon whether they approve of the deity. In the IN universe, it could be that the Church is "rediscovering" the fact that such-and-such a deity is actually an angel. The local religion may or may not believe the Christians, but that's their problem. Niall. > -----Original Message----- > From: Elizabeth McCoy [SMTP:emccoy@nh.ultranet.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 1997 11:30 PM > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions > > At 1:17 PM -0500 6/3/97, Charybdis GreyDragon wrote: > > >[Earl Wajenberg] > >>2) These are garbled memories of Celestials. > > > > A possibility, but that rather trivializes several of the > world's major > >religions... > > Only if you look at it from the "these are angels, so Christianity > is The Right Belief" angle -- if you look at it as, "these are > non-human entities who have influenced *many* religions, and there > are seeds of Truth inherent in anything they've touched," you might > be able to play to "and there's more Truth in *this* brand than > in the mass-market religion" concepts. > > Which could be very interesting... > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 08:06:02 -0500 (CDT) From: Austin George Loomis Subject: IN> Calabite of *who?* Re: IN> Missing Lilim? On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, at 17:37:11 PDT, Michael Bowman wrote: [...] >Most of our characters have been "normal." In our two campaigns so far >we've had: 2 Seraphs of Yves, an Elhohite of Jean, an Elohite of Dominic, >a 2 Mercurians of David, a Calabite of Novalis, a Soldier of Novalis, a ^^^^^^^^ >Calabite of Jean, a Kyriotate of Jordi and a Malakite of Michael. >^^^^^^^^ Either you misspelled "Ofanite" twice, or your campaign is nowhere near as "normal" as you think it is. Calabim are *demons*, remember -- the closest one could come to serving an Archangel is if he got redeemed, and even then, he'd be an Ofanite. Austin George "Picking apart by many nits" Loomis ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 08:07:30 -0500 (CDT) From: Austin George Loomis Subject: IN> The Eight Hundred Myriads Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, at 22:19:28 CDT, Scott Johnson wrote: >On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, James Rand wrote: > >> This is all very interesting, but is anyone actually using it in >> their games? Has anyone run a game that uses a cosmology similar to >> the Sandman comics, where God is God and he is the Supreme Being and >> monotheism is correct, but the gods of the various other pantheons >> still run their own realms and interact with the celestial and >> occasionally mortal realms? Would anyone be interested in seeing In >> Nomine rules for servitors of the old gods? > >Actually, I'm not only interested, I'm actually starting such a writeup >myself, for the Shinto kami and related spirits. It's only a rough >beginning right now, but I'm considering posting it to the list when it's >done. I look forward to it. (I'm sure it'll be good, because it's Scott's, but if I go on about that, I might start gushing embarrassingly and the Penguinator would have to Smite me...) >(I was also vaguely considering submitting it to _Pyramid_, but >there's plenty of complications involved there. Most notably, I have no >ideas whether it'll be compatible with the official rules for Etherial >spirits that will eventually be published...) > What I'd do, in a situation like that, would be to sit on the rules-stuff until July. >Basically, I'm working up a history of what happened to the kami when >Uriel came around, what they've been doing since then, and what the types >of kami and kami Superiors are currently. Well, heck, Sukotto-san -- you can shoot us the history now (or when it's complete, anyway) and keep the rules back until _The Marches_ comes out. I know I'm curious to see what Amaterasu and Susa-no-O are up to these days... >There's some similarities to >the Angels and Demons (most notably, there's one type of kami quite >similar to Cherubim and Djinn), Sounds interesting. >but plenty of differences as well. (You >can still play kami with the same rules as angels or demons, though.) > Sounds like a good stopgap measure until we get the rules on the Far Marches/Beleth's Houseguests lot. Austin George "This quote intentionally left blank" Loomis ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 09:02:45 -0500 (CDT) From: Austin George Loomis Subject: IN> Know Your Diabolicals #7 (Jean) [If Beth's beaten me to the punch, I'm going to feel like a perfect damned fool, of course...After this, there's nobody left but Novalis.] - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Know Your Diabolicals (series created by Elizabeth McCoy) A young angel's guide to the Fallen and their masters. #7: As delivered by a Servitor of Lightning (Jean) [probably a Seraph or Elohite] Bands ===== Balseraphs: Their lies encourage mortals and celestials alike to become mired in loose and muddy thinking. Counter them with the spark of truth. Djinn: This Band is rarely much of a problem, save in the area of raw muscle -- they make adequate thugs, and the occasional obsessives are a true danger. Calabim: One of the few nearly-positive aspects of Vapula is that he employs none of the Destroyers. Keep them away from fragile objects, such as your equipment or your vessel. Habbalah: It is only inexcusably muddy thinking that allows this Band to believe they serve the Symphony, and it is saddening that so many of them refuse to see this. Lilim: Ambiguous creatures, the Daughters of Lilith are as often willing to work with the Light as to serve the Darkness. Find out where their preference lies; attempt to persuade them. If you fail, thwart them with a clear conscience. Shedim: A Shedite that truly understood the delicate nature of modern technology, in a host with easy access to sensitive controls, could be the ultimate "monkeywrencher" for the infernal forces. Even without understanding of technology, they can still cause damage, and their very nature thwarts true inspiration. Impudites: These creatures drain the Essence that inspires humans, thus dimming the spark of wisdom. Expose them for what they are, especially those of Vapula, then administer ECT via the Generator. Servitors of... =============== Alaemon: If he acted only to suppress those inventions for which mortals are not yet prepared, the present Prince of Secrets would perhaps be preferable to his former Superior, the often-meddlesome Litheroy. Sadly, however, his Servitors also conceal those devices that could *better* humanity's lot, which makes him as much our enemy, and Vapula's friend, as his predecessor Gebbeleth. Andrealphus: Lust is a distraction a technician can ill afford -- even keeping the object of attraction away from one's job, attention may still wander at a crucial moment. Keep a firm rein on the passions -- let Jean himself be an example to you. Asmodeus: The Servitors of the Game only rarely concern themselves with angelic matters. Occasionally, one of Vapula's Servitors will seek new employment; be prepared to take the Renegade into custody. Baal: The Prince of the War relies strongly on Vapula's devices for his tactical advantage. Use Kyriotates to sabotage them from within. Beleth: All fear corrupts, and absolute fear tends to corrupt absolutely - -- particularly when one's mind is being attacked from within. By far the greatest danger posed by Servitors of Nightmares is that humans come to fear their own imaginations. If approached delicately and apprised of the nature of the threat, the Servitors of Blandine will often help, despite their Archangel's hostility to us. Belial: Only Vapula would have invented the flamethrower -- and only the mind of the Prince of Fire could have been first to think of such a thing. Haagenti: Gluttony's Prince is in many ways Vapula's tool -- Nybbas' media encourage the relentless consumption of everythingin sight, and the technology of Tartarus makes it painfully easy for humans to do. A secondary threat, but a threat nonetheless. Kobal: A troublesome Prince to resolve in one's mind. Objectively, were it not for dark humor, "Dilbert" and Dave Barry, to name but two, would be much less telling portraits of the corporate and societal idiocies on which Vapula thrives. Still, the Servitors of this Word are more often the sort to laugh when a mortal is maimed by industrial machinery. In the long run, by encouraging humans to treat *everything* as a joke, Kobal more helps Vapula than hinders him. Kronos: His Servitors often seek to turn a promising inventor, who should create some great boon to humanity, into the means for Vapula to unleash his creations on Earth. There is no shame in seeking the assistance of Yves' Servitors to bring the genius back to his senses. Malphas: The paranoia purveyed by the Prince of Factions is the absolute fear his ally Beleth seeks to bring into human lives. Where there is no trust, there can be no progress. Nybbas: The products of this purveyor of nonstop noise are specifically designed to deaden inspiration and encourage loose and muddy thinking. The advance of the Media represents Vapula's greatest triumph, and this Servitor of Technology remains on good terms with his former Superior - -- making him our second direst enemy, after the Habbalite Prince himself. Saminga: His hostility with Vapula is a point in his favor, but let it not outweigh the pleasure he takes from incidents wherein technology becomes an instrument of his Word, such as Bhopal and Chernobyl. Valefor: Humanity was very nearly ready for Tesla's electrotherapy when the Prince of Theft stole it. Our visualization suggests that Vapula encouraged this particular act of pilferage, to maintain the market for his own fraudulent or agonizing "cures." Vapula: The Prince of Technology is, of course, our most direct foe. His minions encourage humans to become dependent on machines, rather than using their own admittedly limited minds and possibly expanding their own boundaries. We must thwart his infernal devices at every turn. Lilith: "Freedom" is a decidedly two-edged Word. Many creations of our own Halls serve it as well as, if not better than, those that emerge from the workshops of Tartarus. Treat her or her Servitors as you would her daughters, and let us hope that one day she will be struck by the realization that she belongs with the Host. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 09:05:01 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, James Rand wrote: > Would anyone be interested in seeing In Nomine rules for servitors of >the old gods? I would like to see this. Shadowcat @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ "Librarians are the secret Masters of the world. They control all the information. Don't ever piss one off." Jake Stonebender ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 10:47:21 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions tom timberlake wrote: > ahem...5)they are Etherealities like 1) based on garbled memories of > Celestials 2). the Cellies are themselves responsible for spawning the > Ethereal Pantheons. Agni and Logh are garbled recollections of > Gabriel, Mars and Ares are mis-recollections of Michael, etc..... Oo, I like that. So several major archangels would have a perhaps embarassing "family" of Ethereal gods. Reminds me of Roger Zelazny's "Amber" series, in which the archetypal city of Amber and its royal family have living "shadows" cast across an infinity of parallel worlds. Syncretism with a Platonic twist. Michael is the archetype, and Mars, Ares, Tyr, Nergal, etc. are his ectypes. And I suppose Dominic's ectypes include Minos and Osiris, or maybe Anubis. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 11:03:07 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions James Rand wrote: > This is all very interesting, but is anyone actually using it in > their games? Has anyone run a game that uses a cosmology similar to > the Sandman comics, where God is God and he is the Supreme Being and > monotheism is correct, but the gods of the various other pantheons > still run their own realms and interact with the celestial and > occasionally mortal realms? Would anyone be interested in seeing In > Nomine rules for servitors of the old gods? Actually, I thought the IN world already closely matched the Sandman world -- minus the Endless. Sure, I'd be interested in seeing them. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 11:07:33 EST From: "PERRY M. LLOYD" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Evil! (What, all of them?) [No Free Will digressions] >I think Lilith can go still farther into Brightness. Suppose, way back >when, Dominic told Lilith, "You can only be as free as my rules >allow," while Lucifer let her be completely free, including free of >.Asmodeus? So, Lilith is just opting for the greatest freedom for her >operations. Heaven and Hell bid for her, and Hell won. I question the very nature of Lilim's beings. Look, although their word is freedom, their resonance acts to limit the freedom of others. Certainly this may enhance their oown personal freedom by having power over others, but this doesn't seem to have much divine ring to it at all. Perhaps, once "bright", the Lilim's resonance changes? Perry Lloyd ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 11:32:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> Calabite of *who?* Re: IN> Missing Lilim? On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Austin George Loomis wrote: > On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, at 17:37:11 PDT, Michael Bowman wrote: > [...] > >Most of our characters have been "normal." In our two campaigns so far > >we've had: 2 Seraphs of Yves, an Elhohite of Jean, an Elohite of Dominic, > >a 2 Mercurians of David, a Calabite of Novalis, a Soldier of Novalis, a > ^^^^^^^^ "Hi there. I'm a Calabite of Novalis!" (pause) "You haven't been a Balseraph very long, have you?" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 10:45:48 -0500 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... Walt Mazur wrote: > > On Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:00:07 -0700 (MST), shadocat@primenet.com (Jeff > Miller) wrote: > > >Yep. It's good form for a Ky to perform the guys job (or leave a really > >good excuse) if it has to be in a host for an extended length of time. > > And with the host's memories and skills unavailable, how is it you're > planning on accomplishing that? :) hey, no one said it would be easy--that's Hell's way; Heaven and its Servitors have a much rougher road to travel---hacking a path through a tropical jungle, as opposed to Rt. 666's 8 lanes of smooth blacktop. James, Malakim of Stone and sweaty machete-wielder ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 13:06 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #190 >> Now there's an evil thing to do -- lock the Gray Renegade (serving >> Freedom, theoretically) and the Ofanite in together and watch the >> fun... > Heck, and a kender. Now *that's* sick... you're obviously a Soldier of Kobal.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 13:14 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... >Y'know, I was just thinking...it'd be pretty amusing if SJG made a running >tally and told us sometime just HOW MANY kyriotate/shedite questions have >been asked, vrs questions about other choirs... I suspect the answer is "too many".... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 13:11 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Big Sad Kyrio Question >Speaking of big sad Kyrios, here's another big sad Kyrio question: How >many combat actions does a Kyrio get per round? One per host? One per >force? I've been assuming one per host (plus one for celestial form, if he's manifested that way). I.e., basically one per brain he has use of. Note that the Celestial Song of Projection (I think it is) mentions that Kyrio hosts don't take a nap when using this Song, due to their multitasking nature. Also, the Kyrio vignette implies that a Kyrio gets multiple combat actions. > I'm particularly thinking of the case where a Kyrio wants to >possess hosts during combat. Suppose a 9 force Kyrio is in two 1 force >birds: how many more 1 force birds can he possess in one combat round? >1? 2? 7? I would say 2, unless he's also got a celestial form around too, in which case it would be 3. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 13:05 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Cosmology ad infinitum >> On the other hand, if mass numbers of humanity thinking about something >> creates Ethereal beings, then there are a number of more probable >> Ethereal "gods" of significant power: > I feel compelled to point out that there's a vast difference >between "thinking about" and "believing in," let alone "worshipping." >When people think about most of your examples (E.T. or Darth Vader, say), >inherent in the thought is the concept of them as pure fantasy, which I'd >suggest is NOT very conducive to adding reality. Purely within the >Ethereal Realms they very well MAY have some strength, because they >probably turn up in enough people's dreams, but...actual power? Nah. OK, calling them "gods" was stretching it. But IN implies that the creatures of myth were created just this way -- no one worships them, but they existed, and they weren't of God's creation (otherwise Uriel wouldn't have wanted to off them). So somewhere, in a galxay in the Far, Far Marches.... And I agree with you, that actual worship probably is necessary to really empower an Ethereal to "godhood". On the other hand, Ethereal creatures used to manifest on Earth. Whether this was their own doing, or one of the Ethereal "gods" bringing them along for the ride, or them just wandering into an Ethereal tether and going "downside" isn't clear yet. Hopefully, The Marches will clear up some of this stuff. >{Sorry; I know you were kidding. I hadn't meant to get into quite that >serious a response, but...} I was only half-kidding, so it's OK. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 12:53:11 -0700 From: Rob Coon Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Evil! (What, all of them?) PERRY M. LLOYD wrote: > Perhaps, once "bright", the Lilim's resonance changes? Thinking about it, I have a suggestion for a possible alteration of the Lilim resonance when they become bright: 1. A Bright Lilim can take a Geas upon herself, tranferring it from the original debtor. Failure means the Bright Lilim manages to worsen the Geas, perhaps just giving herself a Geas to the same person at the same level. This should probably be modified by the total indebtedness (is that a word?) of the debtor. 2. A Bright Lilim cannot be forced to perform an inherently evil act by a Geas. So a Lilim could be asked to step out of a fight, even if it causes her side to lose, but could not be asked to kill someone. This definition obviously would need to be refined. 3. A Bright Lilim may invoke the ability to sense needs; fulfilling a need grants Essence to the Lilim directly (perhaps the need level divided by 2, round up?). This also holds for fulfilling a Geased obligation, at the same rate of exchange. These seem to be fair, and would make it more likely that Archangels would all value their Bright Lilim--after all, no Celestial is perfect, and occasionally they could get Geased. Perhaps I would limit ability 1 by the type of Celestial that Geased the debtor in the first place; it could very well be beyond any Celestial's power to remove a Geas from Lilith. I was also kind of thinking that a Archangel of "Good" Freedom (Liberty, perhaps) would be an option, although I do agree with the SJG stance that too many Archangels spoil the Symphony. I don't know how well it would work mechanically; it might be too powerful; I didn't really feel like playing with the mechanics right now. Good, bad, indifferent, opinions? Rob Coon ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #196 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.