From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Jun 5 01:33:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA10418 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 01:33:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA03455 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 00:40:32 -0500 Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 00:40:32 -0500 Message-Id: <199706050540.AAA03455@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #197 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, June 5 1997 Volume 01 : Number 197 In this digest: IN> The recent In Nomine survey by SJG and other things. IN> new discord Re: IN> Lilim are Evil! (What, all of them?) [No Free Will digressions] Re: IN> Lilim are Evil! (What, all of them?) [No Free Will digressions] Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #190 IN> Basic Rites for Blandine Re: IN> Big Sad Kyrio Question Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... Re: IN> Geasa IN> Janus and his "evil" angels Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions Re: IN> Basic Rites for Blandine Re: IN> Big Sad Kyrio Question Re: IN> Big Sad Kyrio Question Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions IN> Evil, Evil Lilim! (Nadine, Lilim of Fate) Re: IN> Freedom, Selfishness, and Evil (Lilith) Re: IN> new discord Re: IN> More WORD Flotsam ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 22:02:04 +0100 From: "Carlos Filipe Duarte" Subject: IN> The recent In Nomine survey by SJG and other things. This is my first posting to this mailing list and I hope to say something NOT boring. Acording to the recent survey by SJG on In Nomine, the proportion between angels and demons roleplayed is of 4 to 1, and on the demons the most played bands are Impudites and Lilim. There's a obvious explanation to this all... Nobody wants to play completely psychological wrecks (as most demon bands are, mainly the Djinn, they should be hospitalised :))) ). The game developers should have forseen this and present the demons as they see themselves or as some evil entity sees them, not in an "angelic" point of view. So come on, people, let's make the demons fun to play... Second thing, can you make an artifact corporeal, ethereal and celestial at the same time ? Nothing in the rules say you can't and it could make some pretty impressive weapons... Carlos Filipe Duarte ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 16:24:13 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: IN> new discord I have a question for the list in general, this stems from a coment made last night at our game. What sphere would the discord of Sadism be in, and what would the effect be? I had been thinking that the entity with this discord would have to make a roll to keep from causeing harm to someone, or thing. Shadowcat All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 18:38 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Evil! (What, all of them?) [No Free Will digressions] >I question the very nature of Lilim's beings. Look, although their word >is freedom, their resonance acts to limit the freedom of others. >Certainly this may enhance their oown personal freedom by having power >over others, but this doesn't seem to have much divine ring to it at all. Neither does possessing people, but Kyriotates do it. It's all in how it's used.... >Perhaps, once "bright", the Lilim's resonance changes? Canon says otherwise (under the special redemption section in the Lilim description). - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 18:18:54 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Evil! (What, all of them?) [No Free Will digressions] At 11:07 AM -0500 6/4/97, PERRY M. LLOYD wrote: >>I think Lilith can go still farther into Brightness. Suppose, way back >>when, Dominic told Lilith, "You can only be as free as my rules >>allow," while Lucifer let her be completely free, including free of >>Asmodeus? So, Lilith is just opting for the greatest freedom for her >>operations. Heaven and Hell bid for her, and Hell won. (Why am I suddenly reminded of the "So where are *You* going to get a lawyer to sue me?" jokes?) >I question the very nature of Lilim's beings. Look, although their word >is freedom, their resonance acts to limit the freedom of others. >Certainly this may enhance their oown personal freedom by having power >over others, but this doesn't seem to have much divine ring to it at all. > >Perhaps, once "bright", the Lilim's resonance changes? Not according to canon -- though there's nothing that says a Lilim, Bright or even otherwise, *has* to call in a Geas for everything she does... Consider the Geas to be the "twist" on their nature imposed by the fact that Lilith got her Word from infernal sources. On the other hand, it does ensure that people keep their promises... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 18:12:05 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #190 At 10:58 PM -0600 6/3/97, Kingsley Lintz wrote: >> Lilim are cool and look good in leather and lace. > Heh...I think that sums it up pretty well, actually... I thought so too. What's *your* favorite Band picture, eh? >> >would do anyway. When's the last time a player said, "Oh, I've been >> >captured? Sucks. Well, I give up."?!? >> Sometimes "playing dead" or biding your time can be useful -- and > Oh, I've seen the CHARACTER say, "Sucks, well, I give up," but >it's really bound to be part of a plan to get away...at worst, an >expectation of being rescued. Which a servitor of Freedom can't do -- they have to blow Essence and scrabble madly, not wait to be rescued. It's just not clear how long they can bide their time in a long-term plan... >> >theoretically MIGHT be a problem, except all you have to do is freely >> >negotiate that you will... >> Hopefully getting some additional bennies out of it later, if you're >> good... > Well, or if you're not so good.. Point. ("Let's see, we get to keep you prisoner, and you get *what*?" "The BMW car, a leather executive's chair, and a cool drink, shaken not stirred. Oh, yeah, and $500 in small, unmarked bills." "And we *agreed* to this." "Yep. You need to talk to Marc's guys more. But I'm your prisoner now! Don't you feel good about that?") >> Now there's an evil thing to do -- lock the Gray Renegade (serving >> Freedom, theoretically) and the Ofanite in together and watch the >> fun... > Heck, and a kender. No, that gives them someone to gang up on. >> And they say *demons* are evil. > "They" who? Certainly no Balseraph *I*'ve talked to recently... Those stuffy angels, of course. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 19:07:13 -0400 From: Denis Sarrazin Subject: IN> Basic Rites for Blandine Hi, I was wondering about the one of the Rite for Blandine. On page 111 (hmm, interesting number ), it says that one of the basic Rites for Blandine is to "Sleep for four hours without visiting Beleth's realm." On page 52, they say that "angels and demons, unlike humans, do not have their own dreamscapes. When they fall asleep (a Will roll is required; if it fails, wait a half-hour and try again) they walk the overarching dreamscape of either Beleth or Blandine's March[...]" Does this not prevent angels from being able to do one of the Basic Rites? I'm still pretty new at In Nomine, so there are a lot of things I'm not sure of :-) Thanks, Denis ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 16:43:57 -0700 (MST) From: shadocat@primenet.com (Jeff Miller) Subject: Re: IN> Big Sad Kyrio Question >Speaking of big sad Kyrios, here's another big sad Kyrio question: How >many combat actions does a Kyrio get per round? One per host? One per >force? I'm particularly thinking of the case where a Kyrio wants to >possess hosts during combat. Suppose a 9 force Kyrio is in two 1 force >birds: how many more 1 force birds can he possess in one combat round? >1? 2? 7? > I'd say that they get one physical action (Skills) per host but only get one Symphonic action (Attunments, Songs) per round. I would add the proviso that one of the hosts must give up it's physical action to perform a Symphonic action (the one from which the effect will originate). As far as purely mental actions.... I don't know. A number of mental actions equal to total Forces in addition to the above (with the limitation that any mental action that requires physical activity such as reading requires a host to give up its physical action. What do you think? -- Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 16:44:23 -0700 (MST) From: shadocat@primenet.com (Jeff Miller) Subject: Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions >[Charles Badger] >>How do we know that each religion isn't just another way of looking at the >>same gods and servants? > > We don't... That was one possibility I had considered. It does work >rather well for Hinduism, actually. Since all the various lesser deities >in Hinduism are considered to merely be aspects of Vishnu.. The Hindus have >no problem with reconciling the 1000 gods and 1 God idea... >The lesser gods, could, arguably be the embodiments of Words-- the angels >and demons... > > But if that were the case, why would Uriel have needed to banished the >"gods" of ancient religion to the Far Reaches... If the Olympic gods are >merely another way of viewing Angels/Demons, then why banish them? Unless >they began to believe their own propaganda and think they could really >rival God... Hmmmm... > Maybe the major religions that are left *are* just different ways of looking at the one God hierarchy... ...and Uriel just went after the non-conforming ones. -- Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 19:30:10 -0500 From: Charybdis GreyDragon Subject: Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions [Charybdis GreyDragon] >> But if that were the case, why would Uriel have needed to banished the >> "gods" of ancient religion to the Far Reaches... If the Olympic gods are >> merely another way of viewing Angels/Demons, then why banish them? Unless >> they began to believe their own propaganda and think they could really >> rival God... Hmmmm... [James Rand] >Or maybe the various Hindu deities are really that culture's >perception of Celestials, but the various gods of the Olympic, >Asgardian, etc pantheons were something else. Not every non-Christian >religion has to be the result of the same kind of entity. That, of course, begs the question of what other types of entities are there, besides God, the Celestials, the humans, and all... [James Rand] >This is all very interesting, but is anyone actually using it in >their games? Not as of yet... I've only had the game about a week and a half. But I ask because it is something I am seriously considering incorporating... (And because I am, of course, a smart-hoop by nature ) [James Rand] > Has anyone run a game that uses a cosmology similar to >the Sandman comics, where God is God and he is the Supreme Being and >monotheism is correct, but the gods of the various other pantheons >still run their own realms and interact with the celestial and >occasionally mortal realms? Would anyone be interested in seeing In >Nomine rules for servitors of the old gods? Haven't done it yet... But I would be quite interested in seeing said rules... Peace, Charybdis GreyDragon karydbis@phoenix.net ** "Be not forgetful to entertain strangers; for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.** ** --Hebrews, XIII,2 ** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 19:58:49 -0500 From: Charybdis GreyDragon Subject: Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions >Charybdis GreyDragon wrote: > "Perhaps [ancestral spirits] eventually even strengthens into > Relievers or the like..." [Earl Wajenberg] >According to Moriah, there is a permanent qualitative difference >between human souls and celestials, but "or the like" leaves you >some stretch, I guess. Oh? I hadn't read all the backlogs and all, so I hadn't seen that... I had thought that since it is mentioned that relievers could grow into angels, and since Soldiers evolve from enlightened humans, that the process would allow humans and other spirits to eventually become Celestials... My mistake... > ">3) These are deliberate propaganda figures put about by Infernals. > > A rather frightening possibility considering the sheer number of > believers... [Earl Wajenberg] >Yes. You want an even more frightening idea? What if some are >propaganda figures put about by the Heavenly side? You say you LIKE >paranoia fantasies?... Hehehehe... I *like* this concept.... Of course it fits very well with an idea I have been toying with but have not posted yet for fear of being lynched before I had even really introduced myself in this forum... That God is not necessarily good... I mean, it could be that God merely is... that he encompasses the whole of the Symphony, or indeed that he *IS* the Symphony, and that by existing as an ALL, that concepts of good and evil do not really apply. The In Nomine sourcebook does more or less leave room for this by suggesting that Yves was the one that created the distinctions between good and evil, not God himself.... And there is the classic Biblical reference (which this atheist cannot quote directly, but which more or less says) "I am that am..." which leaves no value judgements but simply affirms existence. Peace, Charybdis GreyDragon karydbis@phoenix.net ** "Be not forgetful to entertain strangers; for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.** ** --Hebrews, XIII,2 ** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 16:44:05 -0700 (MST) From: shadocat@primenet.com (Jeff Miller) Subject: Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... >On Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:00:07 -0700 (MST), shadocat@primenet.com (Jeff >Miller) wrote: > >>Yep. It's good form for a Ky to perform the guys job (or leave a really >>good excuse) if it has to be in a host for an extended length of time. > >And with the host's memories and skills unavailable, how is it you're >planning on accomplishing that? :) > Um... ...get *real* creative? I think that that is one of the main reasons that Kys have the time limit to how long they can stay in someone. It's to minimize the damage to that person's life. I think that they should just go with the intent of the time limit and not impulse hop into someone and then stay for days at a time. If you plan on staying in someone, plan ahead and find out what their normal schedule is. That way you can complete their tasks or at worse, provide them with an appropriate excuse. Of course, there will be times when it is necessary to spend a long time in someone the Ky hasn't studied for some greater goal but those times should be rare. -- Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 16:44:02 -0700 (MST) From: shadocat@primenet.com (Jeff Miller) Subject: Re: IN> Geasa >> I agree. The scale between a level 1 geas and a level 6 geas is just too >> great. However, if you had a bunch of small ones you could threaten to >> pester him continuously unless he did something major. I mean, if Joe >> Celestial is on the trail of another Celestial (or in the middle of some >> intregue) does he really want to take the time to go to Baskin Robbins to >> pick up some chocolate fudge ice cream for you? > > Oh, but that's the FUN part. Any time you get into a >debt like this, it is _always_ hanging over your head til >completed. You can't even proactively pay it off; you have >to wait til you are called. Using up a Geas/6 for a bunch of >Geas/1 is a bit of a waste, really, but isn't that better than >the alternative? > > I needed to reread that section. I didn't think the book mentioned combining or sectioning of geasa. However, splitting the Geas up is a great way of getting a Celestial to *not* do something. If you tell a Malakite to not attack a certain Demon (at *least* Geas/3) he's likely to resist. However, if, every time he seems likely to start going after the person you're trying to protect, you send the Malakite off on some insignificant quest he's more likely to do it without resisting. In fact, if you pick things that the Malakite doesn't mind doing (and he doesn't make the connection) he's likely to view you favorably in the future (ie may not kill on sight). -- Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 20:09:20 -0500 From: Charybdis GreyDragon Subject: IN> Janus and his "evil" angels >And if you want to summon him, you get invocation modifiers for >stealing newspapers, defacing public street signs, re-routing "detour" >signs (I call *that* evil, myself...), or blowing up a car. > >Janus isn't evil? Not if he's an angel and devoted to the side of good... Unless I again throw out my argument that God is not necessarily good, and say that Angels serve God rather than good, per se... Peace, Charybdis GreyDragon karydbis@phoenix.net ** "Be not forgetful to entertain strangers; for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.** ** --Hebrews, XIII,2 ** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 20:22:49 -0500 From: Charybdis GreyDragon Subject: Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions [Charybdis GreyDragon] >> But if that were the case, why would Uriel have needed to banished the >> "gods" of ancient religion to the Far Reaches... If the Olympic gods are >> merely another way of viewing Angels/Demons, then why banish them? Unless [Kingsley Lintz] > Heh..MaBarry and I just had a brief discussion to the note that >that might have been why Uriel had to be recalled...if the other pantheons >really were just angels wearing funny costumes, and Uriel heard about them >as "other Gods" and went on a rampage, hacking apart perfectly legitimate >angels who were just doing their job... That makes a twisted sort of sense too... Peace, Charybdis GreyDragon karydbis@phoenix.net ** "Be not forgetful to entertain strangers; for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.** ** --Hebrews, XIII,2 ** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 20:15:56 -0500 From: Charybdis GreyDragon Subject: Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions >>[Earl Wajenberg] >>>2) These are garbled memories of Celestials. [Charybdis GreyDragon] >> A possibility, but that rather trivializes several of the world's major >>religions... [Elizabeth McCoy] >Only if you look at it from the "these are angels, so Christianity >is The Right Belief" angle -- if you look at it as, "these are >non-human entities who have influenced *many* religions, and there >are seeds of Truth inherent in anything they've touched," you might >be able to play to "and there's more Truth in *this* brand than >in the mass-market religion" concepts. Hmmmm... [Elizabeth McCoy] >Which could be very interesting... >After all, some Archangels favor one brand of religion over others, >so obviously there is no One True Religion (in IN). Just because we've >only seen some of these mentioned specifically doesn't mean you can't >make "Archangel So&So, whose word is [X] and who is the patron of >[Y Religion]" for your own game. Or adapt one of the existing ones >to be that patron... I can see your point.... Since the IN Sourcebook makes a point of saying that Laurence (with the approval of Dominic) supports Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular, I suppose it makes sense that other archangels might support other faiths... [Charybdis GreyDragon] >[...] >> I mean, if one takes the Hindu (and the Wiccan for that matter) concept >>that all gods are ONE god, then there is no real problem... save that the >>Celestials all become pieces of God..... And then there would be the >>questions of why God would banish part of Himself... Don't mind me.. I >>tend to think in circles... [Elizabeth McCoy] >Without an adversary, how can you play a game? Even God might get >bored.... There is that... And after all, I am well noted for talking to (and even arguing with) myself... Why should God be any different? I mean, who else would be His peer... :) [Elizabeth McCoy] >(Just playing "advocate" for something or other...) Peace, Charybdis GreyDragon karydbis@phoenix.net ** "Be not forgetful to entertain strangers; for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.** ** --Hebrews, XIII,2 ** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 20:19:58 -0500 From: Charybdis GreyDragon Subject: Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions [ James Rand] >> This is all very interesting, but is anyone actually using it in >> their games? Has anyone run a game that uses a cosmology similar to >> the Sandman comics, where God is God and he is the Supreme Being and >> monotheism is correct, but the gods of the various other pantheons >> still run their own realms and interact with the celestial and >> occasionally mortal realms? Would anyone be interested in seeing In >> Nomine rules for servitors of the old gods? [Scott Johnson] >Actually, I'm not only interested, I'm actually starting such a writeup >myself, for the Shinto kami and related spirits. It's only a rough >beginning right now, but I'm considering posting it to the list when it's >done. Wizzer! I'd love to see them when they are done... [Scott Johnson] > (I was also vaguely considering submitting it to _Pyramid_, but >there's plenty of complications involved there. Most notably, I have no >ideas whether it'll be compatible with the official rules for Etherial >spirits that will eventually be published...) Ahhh... Go for it... At least get started on the conceptual side, and then you can deal with the mechanics once they are an issue... [Scott Johnson] >Basically, I'm working up a history of what happened to the kami when >Uriel came around, what they've been doing since then, and what the types >of kami and kami Superiors are currently. There's some similarities to >the Angels and Demons (most notably, there's one type of kami quite >similar to Cherubim and Djinn), but plenty of differences as well. (You >can still play kami with the same rules as angels or demons, though.) Yeah... I definitely want to see this when you are done... Peace, Charybdis GreyDragon karydbis@phoenix.net ** "Be not forgetful to entertain strangers; for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.** ** --Hebrews, XIII,2 ** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 20:30:31 -0500 From: Charybdis GreyDragon Subject: Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions [Charybdis GreyDragon] >> point anyway... The point is really that a significant portion of the >> world's population are *NOT* people of the Book. [Kingsley Lintz] > Definitely. Even if we accept the "over half the world" figure, >that's still ALMOST half the world who isn't... [Kingsley Lintz] > Being that I keep wanting to play servitors for other pantheons >myself, I've been giving it a good bit of thought...my favorite way of >handling it at this stage really is to treat the other Gods as about par >with the Archangels in practice. On a global scale, they'd be >significantly weaker (though I say that largely because I've been >considering ones from mainly dead religions; it may be different for one >with a stronger following), but it would mostly manifest in that they can >empower FEWER Servitors...not that they empower them less. That is a handy mechanics twist that I had not thought of... [Kingsley Lintz] > Mostly what they'd end up with, I think, would be minor spirits and human followers; >when they get the rare opportunity of an Outcast or Renegade wanting to >come over to them, I think they'd pounce on it. So from that view, it's >mostly a matter of figuring out what attachments and rites they might have >to offer. (And then of dodging all the other angels and demons who aren't >going to be happy with you.) Yeah, but lots of opportunity for dynamic roleplaying... [Charybdis GreyDragon] >I mean, if one takes the Hindu (and the Wiccan for that matter) concept >> that all gods are ONE god, then there is no real problem... save that the >> Celestials all become pieces of God..... And then there would be the >> questions of why God would banish part of Himself... Don't mind me.. I >> tend to think in circles... [Kingsley Lintz] > What, you never play chess against yourself? Who me? Nahhh... I'm not good enough at chess to play one side of the board, let alone both... :) [Kingsley Lintz] > Look at it this way; if God had any intention of giving free will, that would seem to >entail providing an alternate side to be chosen, wouldn't it? I suppose... But then again, I keep coming back to the idea that God is not necessarily inherently wholly good... [Kingsley Lintz] >[I kind of like the idea of the angels all being bits of God as a >plausible explanation for where He went...] Course, it could be that ALL the Celestials are pieces of God, not just the angels.. And the humans might be as well... Hmmmm.... now this is beginning to sound a lot like Transcendentalism.... Peace, Charybdis GreyDragon karydbis@phoenix.net ** "Be not forgetful to entertain strangers; for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.** ** --Hebrews, XIII,2 ** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 20:45:26 -0500 From: Charybdis GreyDragon Subject: Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions >tom timberlake wrote: >> ahem...5)they are Etherealities like 1) based on garbled memories of >> Celestials 2). the Cellies are themselves responsible for spawning the >> Ethereal Pantheons. Agni and Logh are garbled recollections of >> Gabriel, Mars and Ares are mis-recollections of Michael, etc..... [Earl Wajenberg] >Oo, I like that. So several major archangels would have a perhaps >embarassing "family" of Ethereal gods. Reminds me of Roger Zelazny's >"Amber" series, in which the archetypal city of Amber and its >royal family have living "shadows" cast across an infinity of >parallel worlds. The Amber books are one of my favorite series... at least the first series... Course, since some of these "shadows" became real enough that Uriel had to banish them.... So that would imply they could somehow threaten the *real* angels... > Peace, Charybdis GreyDragon karydbis@phoenix.net ** "Be not forgetful to entertain strangers; for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.** ** --Hebrews, XIII,2 ** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 22:42:32 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul F. Strack" Subject: Re: IN> Basic Rites for Blandine On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Denis Sarrazin wrote: > I was wondering about the one of the Rite for Blandine. On page 111 > (hmm, interesting number ), it says that one of the basic Rites for > Blandine is to "Sleep for four hours without visiting Beleth's realm." > On page 52, they say that "angels and demons, unlike humans, do not have > their own dreamscapes. When they fall asleep (a Will roll is required; if > it fails, wait a half-hour and try again) they walk the overarching > dreamscape of either Beleth or Blandine's March[...]" In my games, I give angels the option of dreaming normally if they choose. The Blandine rite hasn't come up yet, but that would fix the problem. Paul Strack | Madness takes its toll. pfstrack@math.unc.edu | Please have exact change. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ World of Darkness Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/wod.html In Nomine Page: INC2 - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/innom/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 11:32:31 +0930 From: "Damian O'Dea" Subject: Re: IN> Big Sad Kyrio Question Jeff Miller wrote: > > >How many combat actions does a Kyrio get per round? > >One per host? One per force? I'm particularly thinking of the > >case where a Kyrio wants to possess hosts during combat. > >Suppose a 9 force Kyrio is in two 1 force birds: how many more 1 > >force birds can he possess in one combat round? 1? 2? 7? > > > I'd say that they get one physical action (Skills) per host but only > get one Symphonic action (Attunments, Songs) per round. I would add > the proviso that one of the hosts must give up it's physical action > to perform a Symphonic action (the one from which the effect will > originate). > One "supernatural" action and one physical action is permitted per 'normal' characters. Kyriotates should be able to handle all the physical actions for their multiple hosts without constraint, after all, their resonance is multiplicity. They're all about being all over the place doing different things. This can lead to the Kyrio hogging the action in combat, but for small creatures like birds and insects (Jordi only?) treating each action separately is better handled "en masse". I had a battle where a Kyrio was controlling individual hornets (created from Transub. attunement of Eli) to attack the demons. I ended up considering the hornets to be a minor distraction compared to the big nasty Malakite the demons were trying to defend against (until Calabite hit him with the Corp. Song of Charm - that gets nasty with their resonance ;p) Unless he tried to do smething specific, I assumed that the efforts to harrass were pretty much automatic. Then the Belial follower did his flaming thing and started toasting little insecty hosts. Kyrio beats a speedy retreat!!! Infernal Intervention helped here ;p ODie... - -- === Damian O'Dea Damian.ODea@dsto.defence.gov.au === === Information Management & Fusion Group ph:(08) 259 5839 === === Information Technology Division fx:(08) 259 5619 === === DSTO - Salisbury, P. O. Box 1500, Salisbury, Adelaide, SA 5108 === ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 02:18:59 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Big Sad Kyrio Question On Wed, 4 Jun 1997 16:43:57 -0700 (MST), shadocat@primenet.com (Jeff Miller) wrote: >I'd say that they get one physical action (Skills) per host but only get one >Symphonic action (Attunments, Songs) per round. That sounds about right to me: all would come from the Kyrio's singular celestial self. An official ruling is always nice, though. > I would add the proviso >that one of the hosts must give up it's physical action to perform a >Symphonic action (the one from which the effect will originate). Yeah, that's stated in the combat summary on page 68 (and probably elsewhere). The exceptions are assisting and sensing powers. >As far as purely mental actions.... I don't know. A number of mental >actions equal to total Forces in addition to the above (with the limitation >that any mental action that requires physical activity such as reading >requires a host to give up its physical action. What do you think? A mental action would be a normal action for a host (p.68). As to whether a Kyrio can use a mental skill for each host or some or one, I'd be tempted (in the absence of an official ruling) to rule that the Kyrio would have to split his Intelligence or Precision points among the hosts doing mental skills. So, for example, a 10 force Kyrio in two humans with a precision of 8 and a ranged weapon/3 could take one shot at 8+3=11 or two shots at 4+3=7. IOW, they have only so much mental concentration to spread around. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 21:35:15 +0500 From: "James Rand" Subject: Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions > Haven't done it yet... But I would be quite interested in seeing said > rules... Well, after sitting down and giving it some half-serious thought for fifteen minutes or so, I've found that thinking up servitor attunements, 2-3 rites, and 5 summoning modifiers for each God is pretty difficult. If anyone would like to help by sending me suggestions for rites, attunements, or summoning modifiers, I'd appreciate it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 23:26:12 -0500 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: IN> Evil, Evil Lilim! (Nadine, Lilim of Fate) >Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 00:04:40 -0600 (MDT) >From: Meera Barry >Subject: IN> Freedom, Selfishness, and Evil (Lilith) > I usually like to paint the "selfishness is evil," commentary > so that I can explain why I think children are evil by nature, > especially at the youngest of ages. Infants for the needs of > SURVIVAL (and survival must then be selfish, for you thusly > serve the needs of yourself over others if you are in such > a desperate situation) are completely selfish. They want food. > They want it now. They want attention. They want it now. > And it's more than a "want," for them; it has become a specific > "NEED" until they can function on their own. > Heh, inspired again. \|=) Nadine, Lilim Servitor of Fate. Corporeal Forces:2 Strength:4 Agility:4 Ethereal Forces:3 Intelligence:7 Precision:5 Celestial Forces:4 Perception:7 Will:9 Vessel: Human/2, Role: Anita Davis, Nurse/4 (Status/2) Caucasian, 5'1", 110 lbs, black hair, blue eyes. Medecine/4 Knowledge: Medical Beaurocracy/2 Fast-Talk/3 Pistol/1 Celestial Song of Charm/3 Corporeal Song of Charm/3 Attunements: Lilim of Fate, Fated Future. "Diamonds may last a billion years, but Geasa are forever." Six years ago, a new nurse was employed in the Maternity Ward of Our Lady of Mercy Hospital. Anita Davis was a kind, helpful person, and great with the kids. She always knew what they seemed to Need, and she delighted in making them comfortable and happy before they went home to their respective families. In adittion her medical knowlege was incredible, possibly rivaling thosat of the doctors on staff, and her swift actions have saved a noticable number of premature babies. Practically the perfect maternity ward nurse. Of course, things aren't always that simple. You see, long before Anita Davis was a Nurse, she was a Demon. A Lilim named Nadine, to be precise, serving Kronos, the Demon Prince of Fate. A about a decade ago, Nadine realized that doing favors for full-grown people tended to be tough, especially for those high-level Geasa. On the other hand, the types of Needs babies tend to have are usually easily fulfilled. "I Need to be Changed." "I Need to be burped." "I Need to be fed." "I Need to be held and rocked to sleep." So she asked Kronos for a Role as a Nurse, and went to work in a Maternity Ward. And fulfill those kids' Needs she does. Willingly, and with a smile on her face, as Geas after Geas lands upon their souls. And since the level of a Geas depends on the difficulty the recipient would have fulfilling the Need, Geas/5's and /6's are usually trifling to fill. (it will take a few years before the kid can feed himself, for instance.) Sure, there's very little that a toddler can do...but Nadine's nothing if not patient. As many as one in every five kids that leaves the maternity ward comes saddled with several Geasa, and the unwitting parents are none the wiser. Though none of her "Favorites" are older than six right now, there are still ittle things a six year old can do...leave a door unlocked, for instance. And just wait until they're sixteen, twenty-one, or thirty-four. Then they'll be Mayors, Judges, Police Officers, Bankers, and so on (As well as Garbage men, Fast-Food Cooks, Homeless people, and criminals, but hey, that's the risk you take). And Nadine will be able to pull their strings when they get there. Kronos is very pleased at this turn of events, and is considering planting Lilim in maternity wards around the world for this purpose. Nadine recently managed to trade a large number of high-level Geasa on children of influential families for the Fated Future attunement, which she plans to use to surreptitiously discern the infants she really should get a lot of Geasa on. and if her plans come to fruitition, she'll be the Demon of Childhood Promises before too long... Well, there ya go. An Evil Lilim for your perusal. Whaddaya think? p.s., Sorry about that "Deepest Apologies" thing. Turns out I didn't send that monstrous message after all, but I guess it's better to be safe and sorry, than just sorry. \|=) = http://www.io.com/~beholder ===================== nofori@pop3.utoled.edu === Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Monty, Lilim Captain of Media, the Demon of Game Shows. ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 20:35:37 -0500 From: Charybdis GreyDragon Subject: Re: IN> Freedom, Selfishness, and Evil (Lilith) [Meera Barry] > I usually like to paint the "selfishness is evil," commentary > so that I can explain why I think children are evil by nature, > especially at the youngest of ages. Infants for the needs of > SURVIVAL (and survival must then be selfish, for you thusly > serve the needs of yourself over others if you are in such > a desperate situation) are completely selfish. They want food. > They want it now. They want attention. They want it now. > And it's more than a "want," for them; it has become a specific > "NEED" until they can function on their own. I have heard this argument before, but it still brought a chuckle in this context... I suppose this arguments could be construed as "evidence" of Original Sin, and the necessity for Salvation even for infants... :) - --- [Meera Barry] > (What if she IS trying to make a grey side? Heh. "Don't > follow that God fellow... OR that Lucifer fellow... don't > be bound to their ideas. Be free.") An interesting idea... after all, there can be more than 2 sides to any issue... And more than one "opposite"... Peace, Charybdis GreyDragon karydbis@phoenix.net ** "Be not forgetful to entertain strangers; for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.** ** --Hebrews, XIII,2 ** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 23:16:59 -0500 (CDT) From: Thany Subject: Re: IN> new discord On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Shadowcat wrote: > What sphere would the discord of Sadism be in, and what would the > effect be? Ethereal, along with Fear and Berserk. Pedanticly, wouldn't it actually be called Sadistic? > I had been thinking that the entity with this discord would have > to make a roll to keep from causeing harm to someone, or thing. That, or to keep it from causing more harm than neccesary (the Malakim in the Choir intro might be Sadistic; instead of killing the demon, it whacks the thing with a 2x4). - -- "This is not clever." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 20:41:56 -0500 From: Charybdis GreyDragon Subject: Re: IN> More WORD Flotsam [Meera Barry] > Well, where the LintKing is, I generally am hiding in the > Shadows, and, kind of vice versa. I'll bear that in mind... [Meera Barry] > The Symphony also could have been louder in the past; > which would suggest that it would have been harder to > "hear" disturbances, or that the Songs in it were > played more often. I don't know about more strongly... But differently to be sure... My husband is already talking about a medieval In Nomine campaign... [Meera Barry] > Yep -- haven't had the book for more'n three months and > I'm already trying to port it to different times and > merging it with other systems. (Precedence's "Immortal" > comes immediately to mind.) Heheheh.... I've only had it a week, and I'm tacking the other major world religions, and my husband wants to play time warp... :) [Meera Barry] > But to think, a sort of medieval "Inquisition Era" game, > where BLATANT interventions from both sides are more likely, > well, it suggests to me that dissonance wasn't the same > then...neither will it be in my "Heavenly Throne War" Rapture > adventure... That'd be cool... Unless of course your Angelic abilities got confused with witchcraft... [Meera Barry] > What's going to make my head ache is to decide how things > changed, why, and what the playing consequences will be. > On the other hand, it might mean new choirs/bands, new > Words, and all the fun stuff. > Yeah, and other Archangels... Raphael, perhaps... He's decidedly missing from the IN lexicon... Peace, Charybdis GreyDragon karydbis@phoenix.net ** "Be not forgetful to entertain strangers; for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.** ** --Hebrews, XIII,2 ** ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #197 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.