From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Jun 5 16:15:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA15484 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 16:15:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA14001 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 13:57:55 -0500 Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 13:57:55 -0500 Message-Id: <199706051857.NAA14001@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #198 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, June 5 1997 Volume 01 : Number 198 In this digest: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #190 Re: IN> new discord Re: IN> Lilim are Evil! (What, all of them?) [No Free Will digressions] Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions IN> Re: Lilim are EVIL! IN> Looking for an Angel Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions IN> Where do Angels come from?? Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... IN> Re: Basic Rites for Blandine. Re: IN> The recent In Nomine survey by SJG and other things. Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions Re: IN> Missing Lilim? Re: IN> Evil, Evil Lilim! (Nadine, Lilim of Fate) RE: IN> But what about OTHER active religions Re: IN> The recent In Nomine survey by SJG and other things. Re: IN> new discord Re: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #189 Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #197 Re: IN> Cosmology ad infinitum IN> Do the PCs know about forces? Re: IN> The recent In Nomine survey by SJG and other things. Re: IN> Looking for an Angel Re: IN> Where do Angels come from?? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 23:56:23 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #190 > > Oh, I've seen the CHARACTER say, "Sucks, well, I give up," but > >it's really bound to be part of a plan to get away...at worst, an > >expectation of being rescued. > Which a servitor of Freedom can't do -- they have to blow Essence > and scrabble madly, not wait to be rescued. It's just not clear Hard to tell, really...it just says they have to `try', not that they have to scrabble madly. (If nothing else, I think they'd have a very strong point on the, "If I bide for a bit, I actually CAN get away; if I blow all my Essence now, I'm effectively accepting capture.") Though you're right..I wouldn't let them bide for TOO long. > *what*?" "The BMW car, a leather executive's chair, and a cool > drink, shaken not stirred. Oh, yeah, and $500 in small, unmarked > bills." "And we *agreed* to this." "Yep. You need to talk to Marc's What, Vanna White is a Lilim? ("You Need to buy a vowel? Great!") > >> And they say *demons* are evil. > > "They" who? Certainly no Balseraph *I*'ve talked to recently... > Those stuffy angels, of course. Strange. My Balseraph pal swore he WAS an angel. Are you suggesting he might have lied to me? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 00:00:38 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> new discord > What sphere would the discord of Sadism be in, and what would the > effect be? > I had been thinking that the entity with this discord would have > to make a roll to keep from causeing harm to someone, or thing. All told, I think I'd put it down as a Celestial one. I'd also note it more specifically as causing pain (physical or emotional)..not just harm. The major point to it, I think, would be that they'd actually require the Will roll to finish anyone off... {Mind, I'm not entirely clear on what defining lines they had between Ethereal and Celestial discords; I'm personally inclined to bump Anger over to Celestial, to set it alongside Slothful and Lustful and, presumably, the rest of the Deadly Sins. I here suggest Celestial for sadism as it's primarily a `lust' aspect..} ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 00:11:55 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Evil! (What, all of them?) [No Free Will digressions] > I question the very nature of Lilim's beings. Look, although their word > is freedom, their resonance acts to limit the freedom of others. Their MOTHER'S Word is Freedom. The majority of the Lilim serve other Princes, just like everyone else. It is a significant difference, I think. > Perhaps, once "bright", the Lilim's resonance changes? I really don't think so. Beyond the "not by canon" response that's already been noted, I don't think it -SHOULD-. The Lilim don't fit in the same scheme of things as the other Choir/Bands. There's a fair case that one being given an angelic Heart would have a distinct change of outlook, but...the fact that they can play any side without Resonating differently is one of the major points that sets them apart and makes them...Lilim. (Hey, there's more to it than just looking good in leather or lace..) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 01:27:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Scott Johnson Subject: Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, James Rand wrote: > > Haven't done it yet... But I would be quite interested in seeing said > > rules... > > Well, after sitting down and giving it some half-serious thought for > fifteen minutes or so, I've found that thinking up servitor > attunements, 2-3 rites, and 5 summoning modifiers for each God is > pretty difficult. If anyone would like to help by sending me > suggestions for rites, attunements, or summoning modifiers, I'd > appreciate it. One thing I've found that helps is to cut down on numbers, at least at first - for my Shinto writeup, I'm limiting myself to five types of Kami (Kuni-tsu-Kami, Ama-tsu-Kami, Kitsune, Oni, and Tengu, for anyone interested) and perhaps a half-dozen Superiors for now. Thirty or so Servitor Attunements is still nothing to sneeze at, but it's more reasonable than some alternatives. I'm not sure whether I'll be including summoning modifiers, either - partly because it's a bit of a hassle, partly because I really think Superiors among the Old Gods would be less likely to come to Earth than the Heavenly/Infernal Superiors, given that a) they're stranded so far off in the Marches, and b) when they're on the Corporeal plane, they just scream 'Target!' to any servitors of Laurence and Dominic (and perhaps Asmodeus...) in range... - -- Scott Johnson | zagyg@io.com | This space intentionally left blank. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 07:34:45 +0200 From: Jo Hart Subject: IN> Re: Lilim are EVIL! At 18:17 04/06/97 -0500, you wrote: > > >Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 11:07:33 EST >From: "PERRY M. LLOYD" > >I question the very nature of Lilim's beings. Look, although their word >is freedom, their resonance acts to limit the freedom of others. >Certainly this may enhance their oown personal freedom by having power >over others, but this doesn't seem to have much divine ring to it at all. > >Perhaps, once "bright", the Lilim's resonance changes? > I question how Lilith actually progresses the word of Freedom. By geasing people? I think from a more Xtian p.o.v you can look at her form of freedom as meaning freedom from having to obey God's will (ie. as stated in the bible et al). Now whilst this might seem perfectly fine to us with our modern secular viewpoints, its fairly solidly evil in the In Nomine world, I'd have said. Given that, any demons of heresy or 'free-thinking' (as in historical revisionism or whatever) probably work for her in some way. The hellish version of freedom is almost certainly freedom to indulge ones own selfish desires, hence lilim as tempters (as per the tempters who tempt pure-minded mortals/ saints away from God). I know its a bit of a bizarre and archaic way to look at things, maybe that shows how far Hell is winning the propaganda war ;-) Bright Lilim? Everyone has plenty of selfish desires.. do people really also have as many selfless ones? I think they'd have to work very hard at it. jo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 04:15:05 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: IN> Looking for an Angel Charybdis GreyDragon wrote: > Yeah, and other Archangels... Raphael, perhaps... He's decidedly missing from the IN lexicon... Yeah, where's Raphael?? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 07:33:40 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions On Wed, 04 Jun 1997 19:58:49 -0500, Charybdis GreyDragon wrote: >... And there is the classic Biblical reference (which this >atheist cannot quote directly, but which more or less says) >"I am that am..." which leaves no value judgements but simply affirms >existence. Isn't that Popeye 1:1? ;) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 04:46:48 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: IN> Where do Angels come from?? That's a question I've got since the first time I put my eyes on IN: Is there some constant process of creation going on for Celestials or their numbers are the same as when God made 'em all? If there is, how it's done?? This can lead us to another thought: Do humans become Celestials after they die? Some of them, at least?? I can imagine a situation here - and I'll borrow some concepts from Wraith: The Oblivion to do that. Imagine that you die. Now, if you are reasonably fettered, you'll become a wraith (some sort of Ethereal being in IN). But if you don't have any fetters (or if you has already worked them out during your afterlife), you'll either Transcend or go to Oblivion. Couldn't it be an euphemism to say that you go to Heaven or Hell? More, that you become an Angel or a Demon?? That'd be a nice way to mix both systems, wouldn't it?? Tell me if I'm too delirious...:-) Andre Ribeiro ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 07:33:36 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... On Wed, 4 Jun 1997 16:44:05 -0700 (MST), shadocat@primenet.com (Jeff Miller) wrote: >>>Yep. It's good form for a Ky to perform the guys job (or leave a really >>>good excuse) if it has to be in a host for an extended length of time. >> >>And with the host's memories and skills unavailable, how is it you're >>planning on accomplishing that? :) >> >Um... ...get *real* creative? At least. :) >I think that that is one of the main reasons that Kys have the time limit to >how long they can stay in someone. It's to minimize the damage to that >person's life. I think that they should just go with the intent of the time >limit and not impulse hop into someone and then stay for days at a time. If >you plan on staying in someone, plan ahead and find out what their normal >schedule is. That way you can complete their tasks or at worse, provide >them with an appropriate excuse. Yeah, if a Kyrio doesn't do that, he has to deal with fall-out from the human's life: people filing missing person reports or whatever. >Of course, there will be times when it is necessary to spend a long time in >someone the Ky hasn't studied for some greater goal but those times should >be rare. Agree. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 08:05:30 -0500 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: IN> Re: Basic Rites for Blandine. >Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 19:07:13 -0400 >From: Denis Sarrazin >Subject: IN> Basic Rites for Blandine > >Hi, > >I was wondering about the one of the Rite for Blandine. On page 111 (hmm, >interesting number ), it says that one of the basic Rites for Blandine >is to "Sleep for four hours without visiting Beleth's realm." > >On page 52, they say that "angels and demons, unlike humans, do not have >their own dreamscapes. When they fall asleep (a Will roll is required; if >it fails, wait a half-hour and try again) they walk the overarching >dreamscape of either Beleth or Blandine's March[...]" > >Does this not prevent angels from being able to do one of the Basic Rites? From my point of view, I'd have to say "No." The main way for Blandine's angels on to visit her realm , is to go to sleep in their Corporeal Vessels. And i believe said Angels get to decide which half of the Marches they're going to appear in, or they automatically appear in therealm of their Superior. Also note that it doesn't say "Dream for four hours without visiting Beleth's realm." This leads me to believe that the only thing necessary to perform the Rite is to put your Vessel to Sleep and wander around Blandine's side of the Marches (Or the Far Marches) for four hours. Angels who aren't on Earth in a Vessel are either incapable of performing this rite (wouldn't be the only one) or they perform it automatically if they stay in Blandine's realm for four consecutive hours. Not quite sure which, though I'm leaning towards the former. [On a side note, this seems to be a Noiseless way to enter Heaven or Hell. Go to sleep, manifest Celestially in the Marches, and find your way to your respective part of Heaven or Hell. Of course if you're not a servitor of Dreams or Nightmares, this might take a few months...] > = http://www.io.com/~beholder ===================== nofori@pop3.utoled.edu === Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Monty, Lilim Captain of Media, the Demon of Game Shows. ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 09:22:31 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The recent In Nomine survey by SJG and other things. Carlos Filipe Duarte wrote: "So come on, people, let's make the demons fun to play..." Um... why? Personally, I think it says something fairly positive about people that they'd rather project their imaginations into the side of goodness, health, and sanity rather than the opposites. I grant, of course, that villains are often fascinating characters. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 09:25:19 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions Charybdis GreyDragon wrote: "The Amber books are one of my favorite series... at least the first series... Course, since some of these "shadows" became real enough that Uriel had to banish them.... So that would imply they could somehow threaten the *real* angels..." Uriel, as I recall, was the Archangel of Purity. That alone might motivate him to try ridding creation of counterfeit and imitation angels, which is how he might well view the shadow-gods. In addition, and even likelier, he would see the shadow-gods as snares and distractions to the humans. The threat to the angels would be the misleading of their human charges, I think. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:46:18 -0400 (EDT) From: The Quixotic Ninja Subject: Re: IN> Missing Lilim? > The other trend I'm noticing, in my game at least, is everyone wants to > play a "weird" character. No one is really taking "straight" angels. On *this* point, I can *fully* identify... eek. Ask Beth (who's been a great help, letting me bounce campaign ideas off of her that I can't send to the list because my players might read them) how bizarre my campaign's party is shaping up to be. I'm throwing them into my personal variant of IOU In Nomine (an alternate Worcester Polytechnic Institute), 'cause I'm not sure I *could* it run anywhere else... (Come to think of it, it's stranger than Beth knows... I just got another player's character idea in my email box last night. I'm doomed. :) > The closest thing I have to a "normal" PC in my group right now is an > Ofanite of Litheroy. Since Lilim are easy "weird" characters, they draw > a lot of attention. Hey, Litheroy is cool. It's fun trying to do espionage with a character that's even worse at keeping secrets than your average Seraph. :) - -- John Trussell truss@gweep.net / truss@io.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 07:18:12 -0500 From: Charybdis GreyDragon Subject: Re: IN> Evil, Evil Lilim! (Nadine, Lilim of Fate) [Nana Yaw Ofori] > You see, long before Anita Davis was a Nurse, she was a Demon. A >Lilim named Nadine, to be precise, serving Kronos, the Demon Prince of >Fate. A about a decade ago, Nadine realized that doing favors for >full-grown people tended to be tough, especially for those high-level >Geasa. On the other hand, the types of Needs babies tend to have are >usually easily fulfilled. "I Need to be Changed." "I Need to be burped." "I >Need to be fed." "I Need to be held and rocked to sleep." So she asked >Kronos for a Role as a Nurse, and went to work in a Maternity Ward. > > And fulfill those kids' Needs she does. Willingly, and with a smile >on her face, as Geas after Geas lands upon their souls. And since the level >of a Geas depends on the difficulty the recipient would have fulfilling the >Need, Geas/5's and /6's are usually trifling to fill. (it will take a few >years before the kid can feed himself, for instance.) Sure, there's very >little that a toddler can do...but Nadine's nothing if not patient. As many >as one in every five kids that leaves the maternity ward comes saddled with >several Geasa, and the unwitting parents are none the wiser. Though none of >her "Favorites" are older than six right now, there are still ittle things >a six year old can do...leave a door unlocked, for instance. And just wait >until they're sixteen, twenty-one, or thirty-four. Then they'll be Mayors, >Judges, Police Officers, Bankers, and so on (As well as Garbage men, >Fast-Food Cooks, Homeless people, and criminals, but hey, that's the risk >you take). And Nadine will be able to pull their strings when they get >there. Applauding wildly, I kneel in awe at your feet... This is well and truly evil... :) Wow, taking a cue from the tobacco companies by subverting the young-- and to do them one better. I stare in amazement at the sheer evil of it... Consider Nadine stolen-- to practice her evil wiles in our campaign as well. Kril, our GM, has already charged me with the diabolical duty to archive this post and print it to hard copy... Peace, Charybdis GreyDragon karydbis@phoenix.net ** "Be not forgetful to entertain strangers; for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.** ** --Hebrews, XIII,2 ** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 07:29:27 -0500 From: Cerebus Subject: RE: IN> But what about OTHER active religions - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC7182.3374A1A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey, all! I'm new to the list, so bear with me here... I come from a = Catholic raised, Jewish converted background, so I've got my feet in = both worlds, as it were... ;) Taking the idealism that God created the Symphony -and himself- at the = same time, you have to take into account that everything, from kittens = to anal sex, from marshmallows to disembowelments, from good to evil, = was all created by God, just not actually active. SJG created (our = version of) In Nomine, created the framework in which we employ our = games and thus generated the foundation from which we may work; the = house rules that we devise, the new roles, choirs, bands, etc., that we = concieve were not necessarily already determined by the authors. = However, the framework allows this determination to be assumed (i.e., = "They're going to create house rules for this, you know.") When God = created the Symphony, the possibility for Evil existed, the possibility = for rape existed, the possibility for anything existed - and God knew = this. God is supposedly omnipotent, seeing the past, present, and = future with equal clarity - thus, when God created the Angels, he knew = that they were going to rebel against him; almost makes you think this = is what he wanted in the first place, for some other, unknown reason or = plan (fnord). The second important point that -must- be considered is the fact that = Good and Evil are not constants, they're variables, and they're also = regional and societal. Good and Evil are simply moralities. = Headhunters and cannibal tribes don't see what they do as Evil, but most = Americans do. What David Koresh was doing in Waco, Texas was considered = Evil by many, but not by those involved. Reverend Jim Jones did not see = himself as Evil. The consideration that Good and Evil are variables can = be further qualified by television shows such as "N.Y.P.D. Blue" and the = plethora of B-quality soft-porn video rentals available, usually one = shelf up, from "quality" shows such as "The Lion King" and "Angels in = the Outfield" (heh). Someone transplanted from 1959 would be appalled = to see nudity and language like that freely broadcast on the airwaves - = hell, there's a quite a few people offended by it now; but is "N.Y.P.D. = Blue" evil? At this point, the argument becomes vague because it then = descends into a battle of opinion. God is Evil. Remember this, it is an important concept to understand. = In the Old Testament, God is refers to himself as jealous, = self-centered, egotistical, megolomaniacal, grandiose, and vindictive. = He proves himself to be a murderer and the cause of murders (i.e., God = commanded the Isrealites to -kill- all the Canaanites, to take no = prisoners). Well, I could go on and on about this, but that's enough for now. =20 What? Where is my .sig file?! - -----Original Message----- From: Charybdis GreyDragon [SMTP:karybdis@phoenix.net] Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 1997 7:59 PM Hehehehe... I *like* this concept.... Of course it fits very well with = an idea I have been toying with but have not posted yet for fear of being lynched before I had even really introduced myself in this forum... = That God is not necessarily good... I mean, it could be that God merely is... that he encompasses the whole = of the Symphony, or indeed that he *IS* the Symphony, and that by existing = as an ALL, that concepts of good and evil do not really apply. The In = Nomine sourcebook does more or less leave room for this by suggesting that Yves was the one that created the distinctions between good and evil, not God himself.... And there is the classic Biblical reference (which this atheist cannot quote directly, but which more or less says) "I am that am..." which leaves no value judgements but simply affirms existence. - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC7182.3374A1A0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhwMAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAyAEAAAEAAAAQAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAATwAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGluX25vbWluZS1sQGxp c3RzLmlvLmNvbQBTTVRQAGluX25vbWluZS1sQGxpc3RzLmlvLmNvbQAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01U UAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAABkAAABpbl9ub21pbmUtbEBsaXN0cy5pby5jb20AAAAAAwAVDAEAAAADAP4P BgAAAB4AATABAAAAGwAAACdpbl9ub21pbmUtbEBsaXN0cy5pby5jb20nAAACAQswAQAAAB4AAABT TVRQOklOX05PTUlORS1MQExJU1RTLklPLkNPTQAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAAeAPZfAQAAABkA AABpbl9ub21pbmUtbEBsaXN0cy5pby5jb20AAAAAAgH3XwEAAABPAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZnW4A 3QEPVAIAAAAAaW5fbm9taW5lLWxAbGlzdHMuaW8uY29tAFNNVFAAaW5fbm9taW5lLWxAbGlzdHMu 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AAAAAAAAHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAAADAA00/TcAAKRk - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC7182.3374A1A0-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:07:03 -0400 (EDT) From: The Quixotic Ninja Subject: Re: IN> The recent In Nomine survey by SJG and other things. > There's a obvious explanation to this all... Nobody wants to play > completely psychological wrecks (as most demon bands are, mainly the Djinn, > they should be hospitalised :))) ). *blink* Are you serious? I find it to be quite the opposite in games I've played in and run. Most of the people I know (myself included) think it's a blast to play one of the Psychologically Scarred. I particularly like Haballah and Balseraphs, because self-deception is so much fun to roleplay. It's a wonderful feeling, after someone has responded to your blatant Balseraphic lie or your Habbalite's claim of Divine nature with "geez, what color *is* the sky in your world, anyway?" to be able to answer (with complete self-assuredness) "purple, just like yours." (I guess we all know which of the IN player stereotypes *I* fit into, now. Where's my Strength/6 mouse vessel? :) - -- John Trussell truss@gweep.net / truss@io.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:11:38 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> new discord On Thu, 5 Jun 1997, Kingsley Lintz wrote: > > What sphere would the discord of Sadism be in, and what would the > > effect be? > > I had been thinking that the entity with this discord would have > > to make a roll to keep from causeing harm to someone, or thing. > All told, I think I'd put it down as a Celestial one. I'd also > note it more specifically as causing pain (physical or emotional)..not > just harm. The major point to it, I think, would be that they'd actually > require the Will roll to finish anyone off... > {Mind, I'm not entirely clear on what defining lines they had between > Ethereal and Celestial discords; I'm personally inclined to bump Anger > over to Celestial, to set it alongside Slothful and Lustful and, > presumably, the rest of the Deadly Sins. I here suggest Celestial for > sadism as it's primarily a `lust' aspect..} I don't think it would be Celestial, because it isn't one of the 7 deadly sins. You are right, it would need to be make a roll to not cause excessive pain. This could be difficult for a Malakite, to just kill the demon, and not keep it around for the fun of flaying. Shadowcat ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 11:21:42 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #189 >Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:53:08 -0400 >From: Elizabeth McCoy >Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #189 > >At 9:44 AM -0400 5/31/97, Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: >>>Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 20:40:15 -0600 (MDT) >>>From: Kingsley Lintz >>>Subject: Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) >> One of the reasons it's not fair is that, even if you know that the >>person is a Lilim, and even if she tells you that "I'm geasing you for >>this," you don't have the option of simply saying "No." > >I would think you might -- you're missing option 6: > >Tell Vinnie that the debt is not paid -- he just got "free money" >from the Lilim and Joe Human is going to pay that cash out *himself*. >If Joe **really means it** [this might require a Will roll for the >average human, depending on the circumstances; bonuses if you know >the Lilim's a demon!], then I wouldn't make the Geas stick -- Joe will >still owe the money, having refused the "gift." (He had better start >that payment plan quick, though.) *smacking forehead* Argh. Yeah, I guess I did overlook that. And something analogous to it works in nealy all Geasa. Ones like "I need the Archduke killed" don't lend them self to denial in that manner, but tack on any reason you need the Archduke dead, and there's the way out. And since sensing the Need seems to also include the reason behind it, Yes, you can almows always effectively say "No." So I withdraw any belief I had that the Geasing ability of Lilim is Unfair. It's no less fair than say, that Gravity thing that keeps me from floating off into space when I want to. = http://www.io.com/~beholder ===================== nofori@pop3.utoled.edu === Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Monty, Lilim Captain of Media, the Demon of Game Shows. ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:25:00 -0400 (EDT) From: The Quixotic Ninja Subject: Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions [Kingsley Lintz] > Being that I keep wanting to play servitors for other pantheons >myself, I've been giving it a good bit of thought...my favorite way of >handling it at this stage really is to treat the other Gods as about par >with the Archangels in practice. On a global scale, they'd be >significantly weaker (though I say that largely because I've been >considering ones from mainly dead religions; it may be different for one >with a stronger following), but it would mostly manifest in that they can >empower FEWER Servitors...not that they empower them less. > > Mostly what they'd end up with, I think, would be minor spirits and >human followers; >when they get the rare opportunity of an Outcast or Renegade wanting to >come over to them, I think they'd pounce on it. So from that view, it's >mostly a matter of figuring out what attachments and rites they might have >to offer. (And then of dodging all the other angels and demons who aren't >going to be happy with you.) As a guideline for this, here's a quick repost of something that Karakash sent in reply to my question of "what if someone wanted to play one of the pagan gods?" My assumption was that some of the pagan gods, especially the ones not in charge of a pantheon, would now be roughly on par with or slightly below, power-wise, with your average angel. (Maybe give them 7 or 8 forces.) +++--- ++-- +- "The angelic view of most of these 'gods' (small 'g') is that they are trumped-up spirits that leech Essence out of their believers to gain power." "Their view of things can be quite different! ;) If a player wants to play a 'god,' let him use the regular rules, and make sure that he has some way of getting between the Marches and the earth (unless he wants to be stuck on earth). Since he won't have the power your average angel does, you'll just have to wing it, there. He'll probably have the ability to let people 'worship' him in order to gain more essence. Throw on a special power or two (rather than a resonance) and some Songs and you have a decent low-level god. If he has a Superior (for example, he is part of a pantheon), they you might give him an Attunement equivalent." +++--- ++-- +- You could, if you wanted, assume that the most powerful pagan gods would be a bit outside of the PC's realm (in the same sense that Archangels are), and "scale up" Karakash's idea for them by giving them some the ability to dole out Attunements or Distinctions of a sort. Then work out their relationship with their "worshippers" (which has *got* to vary greatly based on the god's personality), and figure out what the god would have to offer them in the long term. (Are canon answers for some of these issues going to be included in _The Marches_?) - -- John Trussell truss@gweep.net / truss@io.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:25:30 -0500 (CDT) From: rogue@ez-net.com (RogueLdr) Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #197 [snip Nadine] > Well, there ya go. An Evil Lilim for your perusal. Whaddaya think? Oh, that is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo evil.... *very* cool. > I don't know about more strongly... But differently to be sure... My >husband is already talking about a medieval In Nomine campaign... I've been thinking along those lines myself. Maybe starting a campaign way back, say, right after Uriel's purge. Then making use of some amusing plot twists, pulling the group further and further into the future, maybe 25-50 years at a time. You'd have to keep them from doing anything terribly different (assassinating Martin Luther, for instance, or saving the Titanic), unless you want to deal with a future thus altered. Hmm.... It'd make for an interesting campaign, I think. > That'd be cool... Unless of course your Angelic abilities got confused >with witchcraft... "She's a witch!" "Burn her! Burn her!" "She turned me into a newt!" "A newt?" "I got better." - -Rogue, He Who Says 'Ni!' ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 97 9:28:03 PDT (1628Z) From: "Brion K. Lienhart" Subject: Re: IN> Cosmology ad infinitum >>I read a book a couple of years ago, I think it was by _Orbital Resonance_ by >>Allan Steel, where the Church of the Living Elvis figured prominently. They had >>a really great title for the leader, IIRC it was Elvis Incarnate. >> >>What kind of rites would a servitor of Saint Elvis have? >> >>"Hell Boy, we're the Flying Elvii!" > >Eeeeee.... And then there was the Magister book, with the >Elvii -- clones of the original... > >And the Elvis Impersonators show, including aliens doing >Elvis... There are an awful lot of people that *believe* in Elvis, and most of them are probably god-fearing bible-thumping christians. What does it take for someone to become a Saint? (In Nomine terms, not the Catholic Church). I bet he could inspire a lot of soldiers. Or how about an Angel that manifests his vessel as Elvis? What band should he be? Mercurian? He would probably want to be the young cool Elvis, not the old fat Elvis. A Demon could probably get a lot of milage out of an Elvis vessel too. I'd think that a Belseraph would be good for that. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 12:44:37 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Do the PCs know about forces? Do the PCs know about "forces." That is, are forces just a stat, like hit points, or do they exist for the characters? Would one demon warn another that a given angel was "twelve forces at least"? Would some kind of spiritual "physician" at the celestial equivalent of a medical exam ever say, "Ah, I see you've grown another force since your last Trauma"? Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:44:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> The recent In Nomine survey by SJG and other things. On Thu, 5 Jun 1997, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Carlos Filipe Duarte wrote: > > "So come on, people, let's make the demons fun to play..." > > Um... why? Personally, I think it says something fairly positive > about people that they'd rather project their imaginations into > the side of goodness, health, and sanity rather than the opposites. Personally, I think its fine if people want to play evil characters but it just so happens that most people don't. I don't see anything wrong with the In Nomine demons - I just don't think that most people want to play demons. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jun 97 13:06 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Looking for an Angel > Yeah, where's Raphael?? I believe Derek has promised an explanation to appear soon. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jun 97 13:13 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Where do Angels come from?? > That's a question I've got since the first time I put my eyes on IN: >Is there some constant process of creation going on for Celestials or >their numbers are the same as when God made 'em all? If there is, how >it's done?? Superiors can do it, at the least -- this is mentioned in a couple places in the book. As for how, well, Superiors work in mysterious ways.... There was a non-canon discussion a while back that ordinary celestials may be able to reproduce, both among themselves and with humans. Check the digest archives at the In Nomine web site at SJG. > This can lead us to another thought: Do humans become >Celestials after they die? Some of them, at least?? The canon answer is "absolutely not". Celestial souls and human souls are different in some way. For one thing, humans typically ascend to the higher levels of Heaven (where angels don't normally go) after death. They don't wind up in the work-a-day part of Heaven the angels inhabit. Humans can get some of the abilities of celestials after death, though - -- they can become Saints, for one. This has been promised to be covered in Night Music. - ---Walter ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #198 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.