From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Jun 5 20:53:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA29823 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 20:53:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA31984 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 19:19:41 -0500 Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 19:19:41 -0500 Message-Id: <199706060019.TAA31984@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #199 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, June 5 1997 Volume 01 : Number 199 In this digest: IN> Tethers (and a bit of dissonance...) Re: IN> Evil, Evil Lilim! (Nadine, Lilim of Fate) Re: Re: IN> Cosmology ad infinitum Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... Re: IN> Geasa Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... Re: IN> Big Sad Kyrio Question Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #189 Re: IN> Big Sad Kyrio Question Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... Re: IN> Do the PCs know about forces? Re: IN> Basic Rites for Blandine IN> Adventure : Smile, Please IN> The recent In Nomine survey by SJG and other things. Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #190 IN> In Nomine adventure/story Re: IN> Cosmology ad infinitum Re: IN> Do the PCs know about forces? Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... Re: IN> Do the PCs know about forces? Re: IN> Cosmology ad infinitum IN> Evil, Evil Lilim! (Nadine, Lilim of Fate) IN> Lilim sensing needs Re: IN> Re: Basic Rites for Blandine. IN> Adventure Seed : Thought-Executing Fires ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 14:36:33 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: IN> Tethers (and a bit of dissonance...) Here's a couple of questions about tethers: * Can a place be both a divine and an infernal tether? * Can a divine tether become an infernal one (and vice-versa)?? * Can a tether has its master changed (a tether of Novalis become a tether of Davis, for example)??? * May any Word-bound celestial be a tether's master (or, is there a tether of, say, Wahtsi, the Demon of Collectible Card Games)???? And one about dissonance: When the GM allows a character to sacrifice 10 points of Essence to remove a note of dissonance (IN, p. 59), does it send ripples trough the symphony so that another celestial will be able to detect her? Andre ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 14:28:28 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> Evil, Evil Lilim! (Nadine, Lilim of Fate) Charybdis GreyDragon wrote: > [Nana Yaw Ofori] > > You see, long before Anita Davis was a Nurse, she was a Demon. > A > >Lilim named Nadine, to be precise, serving Kronos, the Demon Prince > of > >Fate. > Applauding wildly, I kneel in awe at your feet... This is well > and truly > evil... :) > Consider Nadine stolen-- to practice her evil wiles in our > campaign as > well. Kril, our GM, has already charged me with the diabolical duty > to > archive this post and print it to hard copy... Looks like Nadine will endure a lot of traveling these days... My players had indeed to make a stop at a hospital in my campaign anyway... Andre ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:09:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Dennis Castello Subject: Re: Re: IN> Cosmology ad infinitum >>>I read a book a couple of years ago, I think it was by _Orbital Resonance_ by >>>Allan Steel, where the Church of the Living Elvis figured prominently. They had >>>a really great title for the leader, IIRC it was Elvis Incarnate. Here in Portland, Oregon, there's a bona-fide, 24-hour, Church of Elvis. Weird, huh? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 13:02:03 -0500 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions et tu, Charybdis? [read:I also want to see this Kami writeup] Please put me on your list of folks to get a copy to once completed. note: please do not use Zip compression--my computer and browser have formed an alliance and declared my house a Zip-free zone--they refuse to handle it! thanks, tom timberlake ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:10:41 -0700 From: Hollis McCray Subject: Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... At 01:14 PM 6/4/97 EDT, you wrote: >>Y'know, I was just thinking...it'd be pretty amusing if SJG made a running >>tally and told us sometime just HOW MANY kyriotate/shedite questions have >>been asked, vrs questions about other choirs... > >I suspect the answer is "too many".... > > >---Walter NO SHIT! Hollis McCray Madman at Large email: Mccrayh@yoda.cochise.cc.az.us "No matter where you go, there you are." - -Buckaroo Banzai ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 14:47:49 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Geasa > I needed to reread that section. I didn't think the book mentioned > combining or sectioning of geasa. Combining geasa is mentioned. Splitting a geas was asked on this list. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:24:39 -0700 (MST) From: shadocat@primenet.com (Jeff Miller) Subject: Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... >>I think that that is one of the main reasons that Kys have the time limit to >>how long they can stay in someone. It's to minimize the damage to that >>person's life. I think that they should just go with the intent of the time >>limit and not impulse hop into someone and then stay for days at a time. If >>you plan on staying in someone, plan ahead and find out what their normal >>schedule is. That way you can complete their tasks or at worse, provide >>them with an appropriate excuse. > >Yeah, if a Kyrio doesn't do that, he has to deal with fall-out from >the human's life: people filing missing person reports or whatever. > Yep. It may not be dissonant to mess up someone's life like that but I don't know too many archangels who would be happy with a Ky that was selfish enough to make a habit of it. Now, if the person was working for the dark side.... -- Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 14:36:59 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... On Jun 4, 1:46am, Calabim@aol.com wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... > Y'know, I was just thinking...it'd be pretty amusing if SJG made a running > tally and told us sometime just HOW MANY kyriotate/shedite questions have > been asked, vrs questions about other choirs... Oh, goodness, don't get me started. The top two are Kyriotates and Lilim with the Kyrios having a strong lead. No other Band/Choir is even close. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:24:36 -0700 (MST) From: shadocat@primenet.com (Jeff Miller) Subject: Re: IN> Big Sad Kyrio Question >>As far as purely mental actions.... I don't know. A number of mental >>actions equal to total Forces in addition to the above (with the limitation >>that any mental action that requires physical activity such as reading >>requires a host to give up its physical action. What do you think? > >A mental action would be a normal action for a host (p.68). As to >whether a Kyrio can use a mental skill for each host or some or one, >I'd be tempted (in the absence of an official ruling) to rule that the >Kyrio would have to split his Intelligence or Precision points among >the hosts doing mental skills. So, for example, a 10 force Kyrio in >two humans with a precision of 8 and a ranged weapon/3 could take one >shot at 8+3=11 or two shots at 4+3=7. IOW, they have only so much >mental concentration to spread around. > I dunno. In fact, I don't really know what I was talking about with the "purely mental actions." I *think* I was thinking about things like doing mathmatical equations and the like. However, the more I think about it, the more I wonder what difference it would make in game terms.... :-} I assume that a Kyrio gets full use of it's skills in each host (such as they apply). Also, due to their multitasking nature, I'd figure that they get their full attributes in all hosts. **** Here's one that just occured to me.... If a Kyrio with CorpF=1 and Strength=1 is in a grizzly bear and he got shot for 5 points of damage, what happens to the bear? The bear has more points than that but it's just been "killed." I figure that the shock of the damage drives out the Kyrio and the bear wakes up with a minor hole in it. Does the Kyrio go into Trauma? What about the kyrio's other hosts? -- Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 14:58:27 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #189 > So I withdraw any belief I had that the Geasing ability of Lilim is > Unfair. It's no less fair than say, that Gravity thing that keeps me from > floating off into space when I want to. You should try that sometimes... it's a lot of fun and really expands your consciousness. ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 14:40:50 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Big Sad Kyrio Question > > > I'm particularly thinking of the case where a Kyrio wants to > >possess hosts during combat. Suppose a 9 force Kyrio is in two 1 force > >birds: how many more 1 force birds can he possess in one combat round? > >1? 2? 7? > > I would say 2, unless he's also got a celestial form around too, in > which case it would be 3. Strictly by the rules, you can take over as many vessels as you have actions which would make your answer correct. It's just that most people only have one action a round... - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 14:34:29 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... On Jun 4, 4:46am, Walt Mazur wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... > On Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:00:07 -0700 (MST), shadocat@primenet.com (Jeff > Miller) wrote: > > >Yep. It's good form for a Ky to perform the guys job (or leave a really > >good excuse) if it has to be in a host for an extended length of time. > > And with the host's memories and skills unavailable, how is it you're > planning on accomplishing that? :) Don't you ever watch humorous shows and movies where someone is mistaken for someone else (sometimes their twin) and has to manage to pretend to be that person? Kyriotates eat stuff like that up. ;) I would say that most Kyriotates get VERY good at certain social interactions skills and learning stuff quickly. No game mechanics for that, though. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 14:59:43 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Do the PCs know about forces? On Jun 5, 12:44pm, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Subject: IN> Do the PCs know about forces? > Do the PCs know about "forces." That is, are forces just a stat, > like hit points, or do they exist for the characters? Would one > demon warn another that a given angel was "twelve forces at least"? > Would some kind of spiritual "physician" at the celestial equivalent > of a medical exam ever say, "Ah, I see you've grown another force > since your last Trauma"? I doubt it's as quantitative as that, but there is a definite sense of power that you can get in various ways. These ways are pretty few and far between though! - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 14:44:32 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Basic Rites for Blandine On Jun 4, 7:07pm, Denis Sarrazin wrote: > Subject: IN> Basic Rites for Blandine > Hi, > > I was wondering about the one of the Rite for Blandine. On page 111 (hmm, interesting number ), it says that one of the basic Rites for Blandine is to "Sleep for four hours without visiting Beleth's realm." > > On page 52, they say that "angels and demons, unlike humans, do not have their own dreamscapes. When they fall asleep (a Will roll is required; if it fails, wait a half-hour and try again) they walk the overarching dreamscape of either Beleth or Blandine's March[...]" > > Does this not prevent angels from being able to do one of the Basic Rites? I don't understand the question. Joe Angel of Blandine goes to sleep and shows up in Blandine's realm. He wanders around for four hours and gains an Essence. As long as he avoids Beleth's side, the rite works fine. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 20:00:01 +0100 (BST) From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: IN> Adventure : Smile, Please This adventure is in a somewhat lighter vein than my earlier one set on the Marches: again, it's more outline than anything. Primus: Vapula and Nybbas together have a wonderful idea. These nifty, new, Essence-slurping movie cameras will televise _REAL LIVE DEMON ACTION_ all the way down to Hell! Figures will soar! Watch your Prince's servitors kicking angelic ass and twisting human butt! Fun! Profits! Essence! Power! Secundus: Someone gets wind of this on the Heavenly side. Perhaps Jean, via technology: perhaps the ArchDean, if you have her: perhaps anybody. The first impulse is to stop it, with maximum hobnailed boots. Then somebody had a "clever" idea. Let us, said this wise person, have an angelic team standing by, that they may defeat these demons on Hellwide TV before we utterly annihilate their little cameras. Two greenhouses with one stone. Guess who's about to be volunteered? You got it. (Alternatively, it happens in the PC's home city, by coincidence.) Tertius: Well, all sorts of things can go wrong. Perhaps the demons are expecting the PCs, and the whole thing is a setup to televise _their_ downfall. Perhaps something very delicate is in the vicinity, and there must be much avoiding of this fragile object. "Throw that Calabim into my IOUniversity wall, and you will _regret_ it." Perhaps the supervisors of the PCs have their views about proper behaviour. "No dishonourable behaviour." "Try reasoning with them first." "I want to see you fry those servitors of Belial." "Hey, man, be cool." Perhaps the cameras will overload, explode, and necessitate the saving of innocents. A lot might happen. Perhaps it's all a diversion! (But for what?) Anyhow, a seed. Feel free to play with it. Maya - --- Maya, Elohim of Eli in service to Blandine maya@tcp.co.uk - -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 14:38:07 -0400 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: IN> The recent In Nomine survey by SJG and other things. WARNING: I'm making some of those _verboten_ comparisons to the World of Darkness here. Continue at your own risk. ;) >this and present the demons as they see themselves or as some evil entity >sees them, not in an "angelic" point of view. So come on, people, let's >make the demons fun to play... Why? No offense, but part of the reason I was attracted to In Nomine was the chance to play something that is definitely "good", yet still existing in a morally complex world. I like making complicated and difficult moral decisions in-character. (This is made even more interesting for me, as a pagan, in that the "good" is the monothestic Judeo-Christian good which the player doesn't fully agree with...) If you understood how tired I am of the World of Darkness (tm), you'd understand. There is an absolute morality in In Nomine, and the characters *know* this. But they don't neccessarily know what that morality really is. Shades of grey, but with a light at the end of the tunnel. (As opposed to the WoD shades of grey and grey and grey and black and grey...) Playing demons places one back into "black and grey" territory. You're on the Wrong Side. At best, you're a Renegade, which puts one firmly in "Beast I am, lest Beast I become" territory. Now, I'm not saying this is a bad thing, I love the WoD, but I've been there, I've done that. There's a reason White Wolf says PCs shouldn't be Infermalists -- there's very little moral struggle when you've already lost the war. You can choose between Bad and Worse. (I know, you're thinking: Well, what about someone who wants to be Redeemed? Interesting in the short term, but aren't you just playing an angel-wannabe? Why not play an angel? Or an Outcast?) Playing an angel in In Nomine has the unique appeal of taking the best of what I like about the WoD games and the best of what I like about games like Castle Falkenstein: A feeling that one's PC is a hero, that the struggle is worth it, not just for the PC, but for everyone -- but not a simplistic hero, in a simple world. Demons simply lack that -- they're too selfish. And anyway, demons are already fun -- fun villians. While one might not want to play a Djinn long-term as a PC, In Nomine demons great as antagonists: They're not just orcs, they have a complex motivation, and sometimes they can even be sympathetic, right before they do something even *more* evil. This is *geat* for a GM, and I see no reason to do anything to any of the demons to make them more applealing as PCs, because that might ruin their potential as villians. As usual, YMMV, IHMO, TANSTAAFL... -Loki - -- Kirt "Loki" Dankmyer PGP key avail. My opinions are my own. love * Eris * RPGs * Anime * Magick * Carroll * techno * hats * cats * Dada I waked, she fled, and day brought back my night. --Milton ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 15:51:28 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> But what about OTHER active religions At 8:15 PM -0500 6/4/97, Charybdis GreyDragon wrote: [...] >[Elizabeth McCoy] >>After all, some Archangels favor one brand of religion over others, [...] >>[Y Religion]" for your own game. Or adapt one of the existing ones >>to be that patron... > > I can see your point.... Since the IN Sourcebook makes a point of saying >that Laurence (with the approval of Dominic) supports Christianity in >general and Catholicism in particular, I suppose it makes sense that other >archangels might support other faiths... Doesn't Novalis look like an "Earth-mother" type to you? Glad to be of help. (Actually, I just realized where I swiped this concept from -- Scott Johnson used it a while back, in Gargoyles... You see, in *that* universe, the Fay Folk are seen to be gods of various pantheons. One person objected to this on the grounds that it was somewhat degrading to other religions; Scott twisted it around to "But look at it this way -- the Fay aren't 'just elves,' they're *gods*!" Or so I paraphrase. I don't see why it can't be used in IN as well...) >[Charybdis GreyDragon] >>[...] >>>[...] And then there would be the questions of why God would banish >>>part of Himself... Don't mind me.. I tend to think in circles... > >[Elizabeth McCoy] >>Without an adversary, how can you play a game? Even God might get >>bored.... > > There is that... And after all, I am well noted for talking to >(and even arguing with) myself... Why should God be any different? I mean, >who else would be His peer... :) God is obviously a Kyriotate in IN. O;> (Or, Kyrio Smiley #1: (:O:) ) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 15:33:04 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #190 At 11:56 PM -0600 6/4/97, Kingsley Lintz wrote: >>>[...] at worst, an expectation of being rescued. >>Which a servitor of Freedom can't do -- they have to blow Essence >>and scrabble madly, not wait to be rescued. It's just not clear > Hard to tell, really...it just says they have to `try', not that >they have to scrabble madly. (If nothing else, I think they'd have a very >strong point on the, "If I bide for a bit, I actually CAN get away; if I >blow all my Essence now, I'm effectively accepting capture.") > Though you're right..I wouldn't let them bide for TOO long. If you can't come up with a plan to stave off the dissonance, though, it might devolve into scrabbling madly in a panic. True, they don't *have* to (point to you), but it probably happens more often than Lilim would like. (C'mon, just when you need the cool plan, doesn't your mind go blank?) >> *what*?" "The BMW car, a leather executive's chair, and a cool >> drink, shaken not stirred. Oh, yeah, and $500 in small, unmarked >> bills." "And we *agreed* to this." "Yep. You need to talk to Marc's > What, Vanna White is a Lilim? ("You Need to buy a vowel? >Great!") ..... What a *concept*... >> >> And they say *demons* are evil. >> > "They" who? Certainly no Balseraph *I*'ve talked to recently... >> Those stuffy angels, of course. > Strange. My Balseraph pal swore he WAS an angel. Are you >suggesting he might have lied to me? Oh, of course not -- he may well have *been* an angel. Once. A while back... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 16:20:39 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> In Nomine adventure/story Forwarding for a new friend. --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com, arcangel@io.com >Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 23:13:17 +0100 (BST) >X-Sender: maya@mail.tcp.co.uk >Mime-Version: 1.0 >To: arcangel@io.com >From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) >Subject: In Nomine adventure/story > >I apologise in advance for this: you don't know me, but I've been admiring >your webpage for the last couple of days. And enjoying all the IN material. >(The IOU/IN adaptation is simply wonderful, by the by. Thank you.) > >Anyhow, I've tried subscribing to the IN list, but had nothing showing me >that it succeeded: so I thought I'd send this to you. If the list is running >and I'm the one in error, would you post it for me? And if not, tell me what >you think? > >Many thanks. > >Maya@various places > >(http://www.tcp.co.uk/~maya) > >--- > >All the breadth of Dreame-Countries >----------------------------------- > > Along the street (which both was and was not Cheapside) came the dead >Jewess. She walked slowly, for she had a great way to go and had all the >breadth of Dreame-Countries to cross before she would reach Heaven's >Marches. In her arms she carried the little Christian boy, the widow's >child, Orlando Beaufort. He was not sleeping (for the dead do not sleep) but >he had buried his face in her neck and his golden curls were mingling with >her own. -- _Stopp't Clock Yard_, Susanna Clarke > > And this adventure was inspired by that quotation. > Not long ago, as times run on earth, a child was born: this child >had something of a Destiny. In a diabolically sponsored accident, the >parents died: the mother went to Heaven's side of the Marches, and the >father to Hell's. They still loved each other. The child lived. > Yves' servitors keep an eye on the child, given his Destiny. This >has prevented Hell from taken any obvious strikes. All the more leeway for >unobvious ones. > Three days ago, the child fell asleep, and has still not woken up. >He won't. > Today, the mother has left the Marches, and come past Gabriel's >Citadel, and made her way to the pavilions of Heaven. She beats upon the >doors of Dominic's Citadel - or perhaps that of Laurence - and asks for help >for her child, who has been kept in the Marches by a demon, and is now being >lured towards Hell itself. > Step forward the PCs, please. > > Investigation with the Servitors of Yves, on earth, will reveal that >nobody has actually _checked_ on the child in a few weeks now. (Some slight >embarassment, pointing out of more important tasks. The child may have a >high Destiny, but things have been quiet, and...) Examination of the child >will show that his spirit is absent, somewhere in the Marches. > Trying to follow via the child will present a _very_ nasty ambush. >Think of forces sufficient to hammer the PCs into a humiliating withdrawal >(or, in the case of Malakim, being dragged off by allies) and add a few >more. The Diabolicals were expecting a possible investigation: if the PCs >simply try and call in more forces, the trail will get very, very muddied. >Plus damage to local dreamers. Plus perhaps the Angel of Military Law (I >did like him.) > Fortunately, there's another option. The PCs may think of it >themselves, or a Supervisor may suggest it. The soul of the mother has a >natural link to the soul of her child, sympathetically. This will, in a >spiritual sense, enable tracking. (All right, no abilities cover this, but >it makes a certain sense.) If the players leave Heaven and travel with the >mother past Gabriel's Citadel, through the Marches, past Blandine's Tower, >and into Beleth's Realm, perhaps they will be able to find and save the >child... > > >Problems >-------- > > Naturally. > First, the obvious hazards: Gabriel will want to know what's going >on. She remembers the mother passing through, and permitted it, but will >look with more interest at a travelling party of angels going the opposite >way. While she will not actively obstruct the players (well, probably not) >the journey _can_ be rather more difficult if she is displeased. > Blandine, also, will take an interest. She will be unamused by >suggestions of negligence on her part or those of her servants. > Then, the entry to Beleth's Marches. I'm sure you have many fine >ideas of nightmares for your players, that you have been wanting to try out >for a while. Indulge yourself. > The mother herself is a problem. She is fixated (naturally) on >reaching her child, and will want to take the most direct route, and travel >with all due speed. > The demon who is holding the child (I fancy a Balseraph of Beleth, >perhaps, or of Kronos, who lured the child into dreams with many fine >promises) is travelling towards Hell, but slowly, as too fast would risk >damaging the child's soul (and such a fine soul, such promises for a dark >Fate.) Maybe he has a Djinn of Beleth with him, attuned to the child. A big, >hefty, angry Djinn. > Finally, the father. (No, I hadn't forgotten him.) He has the same >sort of link to the child as does the mother, and at this moment he is being >used to guide a posse from Hell (from Belial, who has noticed all this >activity, and believes the players are an emissary from Gabriel to reclaim >the child - tch, misinformation). He is torn between genuine love for his >child, and despair at the situation. A possible use for this group is as >hunters once the PCs have reclaimed the child, chasing them back towards >their side of the Marches. > >Objectives >---------- > >(a) Collect the child's spirit, and return it to Blandine's Tower, where >that Archangel can safely return it to the child's body. >(b) Keep the mother's spirit safe. She is a virtuous soul, and under the >protection of Heaven. >(c) Possibly reclaim the father's spirit. His love for his child is >genuinely unselfish, and may show up at some crucial moment. >(d) Don't get killed. > > > I haven't put any stats in this, because I think it's the sort of >adventure that fits better being customised to your PCs. It's more of a mood >thing, really. And read the story that the quotation comes from, in the >Sandman Collection. It's very good. > > > Opinions appreciated, and thank you for reading this. > > >--- >Genevieve Cogman > >Maya, Daughter of Amber and Chaos > >maya@tcp.co.uk > >-- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and >addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to >shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and >conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development >of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is >obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- >"Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jun 97 16:16 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Cosmology ad infinitum >A Demon could probably get a lot of milage out of an Elvis vessel too. I'd think >that a Belseraph would be good for that. Hmmm... The Demon of Cult Stars, Servitor of Media. Has a lot of different vessels: Marilyn Monroe, Elvis, what's his name (the bad boy of the 50's), etc. Helps keep the tabloids in business.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jun 97 16:29 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Do the PCs know about forces? >Do the PCs know about "forces." That is, are forces just a stat, >like hit points, or do they exist for the characters? Would one >demon warn another that a given angel was "twelve forces at least"? I get the impression from the text that a Force is a "real" thing to characters. For example, I believe an Archangel may reward a character with a Force (but not a stat, directly). Forces appear to be the quarks of life, or something like that -- everything alive is built up from them. The number of Forces an entity has also makes a qualitative difference - -- any celestial in Heaven with 9+ Forces is an angel, below that you're a Reliever. Ditto for 7+ Forces for demons. Humans with 5- Forces are Mundanes, humans with 6+ Forces (Soldiers, for now) can spend Essence intentionally, perceive the Symphony, and learn Songs. Also, I've been finding Forces to be cumbersome as a game mechanic -- the fact that attributes can't be moved around arbitrarily, but only traded off in pairs, with a small range of values, is somewhat limiting. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jun 97 16:52 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... >> >Yep. It's good form for a Ky to perform the guys job (or leave a really >> >good excuse) if it has to be in a host for an extended length of time. >> >> And with the host's memories and skills unavailable, how is it you're >> planning on accomplishing that? :) > > Don't you ever watch humorous shows and movies where someone >is mistaken for someone else (sometimes their twin) and has to >manage to pretend to be that person? Kyriotates eat stuff like >that up. ;) I would say that most Kyriotates get VERY good at >certain social interactions skills and learning stuff quickly. >No game mechanics for that, though. Actually, I figured on Lying, Emote, and Fast-Talk skills as being essential for Kyrios who regularly use human hosts. My Kyrio of Jean settles for only having Lying, but he's also got a high Will, giving him decent defaults on the others. A celestial artifact that allowed the Kyrio some access to its host's memory might be an interesting item. Maybe something whose level added to Ethereal Forces to get an "Host's Memory" skill. Of course, Yves' Kyrios don't have this problem. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 17:28:30 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Do the PCs know about forces? At 2:59 PM -0400 6/5/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >On Jun 5, 12:44pm, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >> Subject: IN> Do the PCs know about forces? >> Do the PCs know about "forces." That is, are forces just a stat, >> like hit points, or do they exist for the characters? Would one >> demon warn another that a given angel was "twelve forces at least"? >> Would some kind of spiritual "physician" at the celestial equivalent >> of a medical exam ever say, "Ah, I see you've grown another force >> since your last Trauma"? > > I doubt it's as quantitative as that, but there is a >definite sense of power that you can get in various ways. These >ways are pretty few and far between though! Unless you're an Impudite of Vapula... (There's got to be some way to let characters discuss "forces"... They're just too important to the mechanics for it to be a "well, there's this aspect to your individual power level and we don't know what to call it"...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 07:50:50 +1000 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Cosmology ad infinitum Dennis Castello wrote: > > >>>I read a book a couple of years ago, I think it was by _Orbital > Resonance_ by > >>>Allan Steel, where the Church of the Living Elvis figured prominently. > They had > >>>a really great title for the leader, IIRC it was Elvis Incarnate. > > Here in Portland, Oregon, there's a bona-fide, 24-hour, Church of > Elvis. > > Weird, huh? Not that weird, and not an isolated group. When studying religion in Uni (lo, so many aeons ago), I found that Elvis worship is a small but very definite religious movement. Typically, Elvis worship is a pseudo- Christian cult, with the main point of difference being that Elvis is accepted as the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. There are similar, somewhat smaller cults that put JFK in the same position. Now, when Elvis rises in glory to hold an all-deity clambake in the Marches, don't say I didn't warn you... - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia Just like a car crash Just like a knife My favorite weapon is the look in your eyes MINISTRY, "Stigmata" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 18:36:49 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Evil, Evil Lilim! (Nadine, Lilim of Fate) Now that's evil! I like her. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 09:07:56 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: IN> Lilim sensing needs In reply to: . And since > sensing the Need seems to also include the reason behind it, Yes, you can > almows always effectively say "No." I didn't get the idea that sensing Needs gives reasons from the book. In fact, I'd go the opposite way and say that the Lilim DOESN'T understand the reasons. In this way, the Lilim has to work a bit harder if they want to find out why the victim wants something done, and they're not completely sure how difficult it's going to be. For example, if a Lilim 'reads' a person whose daughter was kidnapped and raped by a man who got away with it because the police bungled the arrest procedure or something, the Lilim may get the Need "I want 'such and such' killed". That's it. The Lilim can then kill the target and still get the Geas, or they can research it a little. They don't sense "I want such and such killed" and then sense "Oh this is because his daughter was kidnapped and the killer was never brought to justice." If you simply tell the players everything, it removes so many wonderful opportunities for roleplaying. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 08:58:55 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> Re: Basic Rites for Blandine. > >I was wondering about the one of the Rite for Blandine. On page 111 (hmm, > >interesting number ), it says that one of the basic Rites for Blandine > >is to "Sleep for four hours without visiting Beleth's realm." > > > >On page 52, they say that "angels and demons, unlike humans, do not have > >their own dreamscapes. When they fall asleep (a Will roll is required; if > >it fails, wait a half-hour and try again) they walk the overarching > >dreamscape of either Beleth or Blandine's March[...]" > > > >Does this not prevent angels from being able to do one of the Basic Rites? No, read the part describing the Marches. I can't remember the exact quote, but it says that sometimes (Blandine's/Beleth's) servitors are brave enough to cross the invisible, some say nonexistant line that separates the two. The way I picture it is that the Marches are a huge indistinct realm, kind of like a surrealist painting, but Celestials can instinctively feel which side they're wandering around. Blandine's side is probably fluffy and peaceful, but you reach a point where suddenly everything 'feel's twisted and nighmarish. Welcome to beleth's side. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 23:30:11 +0100 (BST) From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: IN> Adventure Seed : Thought-Executing Fires ".. Ye sulphurous and thought-executing fires, Vaunt couriers of oak-cleaving thunderbolts, Singe my white head!" King Lear, Shakespeare Setting Things are on the edge of breaking. A major Word-Bound angel of Gabriel's has reported that the Diabolicals are massing forces in (a large and appropriate city, pick your own): and now Gabriel is moving in response, beginning to mobilise the powers of Fire, and spreading the word to War, Stone, Wind. The Symphony may have cause to tremble. The Real Set-Up Baal has finally found an opening that may permit him to begin the true War. He has corrupted the Angel of the Cleansing Flame, and used him to leak false reports to Gabriel of diabolical build-ups. He is also massing his own forces on the edges of Beleth's Realm: when the diversion takes place in the real world (and he'll make sure that the forces of the Princes that he dislikes are stationed there) then he'll move his own troops into Blandine's territory, allied with Belial, and do as much damage to Gabriel's Citadel and past as he feasibly can. Poor Accidie, the Seraph of the Cleansing Flame, had lost his faith. After Baal's conversion, he has come to see the cleansing flame as that of war, which will leave a cleansed and purified earth behind it. He is doomed: Belial is sending a hit squad after him, to take him out at a conveniently crucial moment. They hope he'll be in Trauma long enough to let the whole mess climax. And it will ruin Gabriel's reputation yet further. Where the PCs come in Option one is to make the whole mess somewhere near where they are. A Superior (not Gabriel) has requested an additional survey of the area. Then again, if it is Gabriel, she wants them to do a thorough spying job. And prepare for War. Option two is a job for Dominic, who is suspicious of the loyalties of Accidie (and of course would appreciate some dirt on Gabriel). For once, he's got it entirely right, but will the PCs believe it? Option three is more fiddly, but could be rewarding. If Accidie (or a similar figure) could be worked into a few adventures beforehand, the players could realise that he is beginning to Fall, or observe his Fall. Can they put together what's going on (perhaps the Celestial Forces are massing more quietly) and act in time to prevent disaster? What they can do There are some clues that Accidie's reports are not entirely accurate, on investigation. Diabolical troops have not been present in the area for _that_ long (footwork will show this up) or as active as suggested. Accidie's behaviour would also provide a tip or two: perhaps a certain willingness to slash and burn entirely, and a belief that the cruel should be punished with cruelty. In any event, there should be a hint or two by the time Belial's hit squad arrive. (Perhaps a Djinn attuned to Accidie, a Habbalim or two, a Lilim as decoy, and plenty of flame.) If the PCs act fast enough, they might even be able to save Accidie, who could have let out an incriminating comment or two, and could be persuaded to spill the beans. He acted for the best, of course. If the hit squad get him, the players may be able to capture one of the hit squad: interrogation would reveal that Accidie had been set up for this _by a Balseraph he'd been in contact with for a while now_. They don't know the full plan, but they can provide enough full details to seriously worry the Players. Another clue: there are _no_ servitors of Belial around, other than the hit squad. What, Belial's people missing out on a chance to hit Gabriel's forces? Something wrong here. If they can present Gabriel with _good_ proofs that Accidie's loyalty is dubious, she'll listen. Not happily, but she'll listen. If they go through their own Supervisors, it may depend on that supervisor's relationship with Gabriel. Either way, this will spark more widespread checking around, and a slowdown of gathering forces around the city. At this point, Baal and Belial will have realised that the PCs are investigating and liable to blow the gaff. Action is required. Evidence is funnelled at a servitor of Dominic that at least one (or maybe more) of the PCs is guilty of consorting with Demons, and has framed poor hapless Accidie. How fast can the PCs dodge or explain? (As to how the evidence is produced, perhaps one of the earlier hit squad of Belial's will fake a meeting with the PC, accuse them of cooperation, whatever.) Anyhow. As the PCs dodge accusations of treason, other hit squads, etc, they will hopefully be able to prove that the situation is being artificially escalated. If they can do this, then it'll begin to fizzle out. If they can leak to the other demons around that Baal and Belial are using them as a diversion, it'll fizzle even faster. Results Gabriel is unlikely to be happy whatever happens, but if the situation is defused, and if Accidie is captured, she'll be less prone to take it out on the nearest convenient characters. Dominic will be counting up the evidence: he is, for once, in the right to do so. Michael will breathe a sigh of regret, Baal and Belial will regretfully retreat to plan again.. Characters The only person I've really defined in this is Accidie, who is something of a tragic figure. Fire taken too far, and burning away all hope of compromise or mercy. If the players can see why he Fell, they may have more of a chance of persuading him to explain or testify. Can he be redeemed? I don't know, but characters come up with truly interesting ideas sometimes. Like all good Balseraphs, he is now doing what he believes to be right. Cleanse the world and start again. Burn it all away. Stats should be good, and perhaps a Rite or two, like burning corrupt books or weapons used for murders. I leave the mechanics to individual GMs. Opinions, as ever, welcome. Maya - --- Maya, Elohim of Eli in service to Blandine maya@tcp.co.uk - -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #199 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.