From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Jun 12 01:18:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA15376 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 01:18:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA06727 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 11 Jun 1997 23:34:19 -0500 Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 23:34:19 -0500 Message-Id: <199706120434.XAA06727@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #206 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, June 11 1997 Volume 01 : Number 206 In this digest: Re: IN> Raphael Re: IN> Loose thoughts on Gotham City... (Pt 1) Re: IN> Big Sad Kyrio Question Re: IN> How can someone play a Djinn ? IN> Music, maestro? Re: IN> How can someone play a Djinn ? Re: IN> Mercurians Re: IN> re:Gotham City... IN> need help!! Re: IN> ...And I Thought I'd Never Ask a Kyrio Question... Re: IN> How can someone play a Djinn ? Re: IN> Loose thoughts on Gotham City... (Pt 1) IN> Bombay Djinn (was: How can somebody play a djinn...) Re: IN> Music, maestro? Re: IN> Big Sad Kyrio Question Re: IN> How can someone play a Djinn ? Elohim (Re: IN> How can someone play a Djinn ?) IN> Loose Thoughts on Gotham City... (Pt 2) IN> Choirs and Bands IN> How can someone play a Djinn ? Re: IN> Raphael Re: IN> need help!! Re: IN> Choirs and Bands Re: IN> Mercurians Re: IN> Music, maestro? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:11:36 -0500 From: Charybdis GreyDragon Subject: Re: IN> Raphael [Charybdis GreyDragon] >> Any ideas on what Raphael's Word would be, based on the RA >> MacAvoy novels? >> Music perhaps... [Andre] > I've never read those novels, but I was thinking 'Cure' >myself... Well, in the R.A. MacAvoy novels Raphael is a Seraph who befriends a mortal witch, Damiamo, and teaches him music... Raphael, in the novels, is portrayed as a great lover of Beauty in general, and of Music in particular... Through extended contact with mortals in general and Damiamo in particular, he becomes "sullied" by contact with the Earth and is weakened to the point that Lucifer is able to strip him of his angelic powers and toss him to Earth as a mortal... But even so, Raphael retains a passion for music. To do him from those novels (rather than from Biblical canon), I'd probably do him as a Seraph of Beauty (or of Music)... Any ideas from those who have read the novels? Peace, Charybdis GreyDragon karydbis@phoenix.net ** "God is an iron."** ** --Spider Robinson ** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 11:45:31 -0400 From: Hatcher Rhanyr Subject: Re: IN> Loose thoughts on Gotham City... (Pt 1) John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > > > Batman - Seraph of Dominic. > > No way! Batman lies ALL the time about what he's up to. I agree Jon....Batman is more like a Cherubim Hatcher - -- ************************************** _< >_ * Hatcher Rhanyr * / \0/ \ * "The Angel of Bright Shiney Teeth" * /_/| |\_\ * * / \ ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 12:04:58 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Big Sad Kyrio Question > > Here's another one, how much damage can an insect swarm take? > > Use the standard calculation for computer Body Hits > when a host is possessed. "... for COMPUTING Body Hits..." Argh, my job is beginning to affect my brain! - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 11:35:47 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> How can someone play a Djinn ? Carlos Filipe Duarte wrote: "More, Elohim is hebrew (if not mistaken) for "the one that came from the sky" (or something like this), or in other words, god. Now, if Elohim is one of the names of god..." I was rather startled when I saw "Elohim" as one of the choirs, because, yes, "Elohim" is one of the names of God. Many Jews won't even pronounce that word, which could limit market share for IN... It is a plural form of "eloha" (I think), meaning "god," and so could be "gods," but it is generally taken to be a "plural of excellence." Just as Italian will add "-issimo" to an adjective to magnify it (as in "fortissimo"), Hebrew will use a plural form for a major instance of a singular noun. For instance, "behemoth" is the plural of "beast," but is used as a singular for "very big beast." Personally, I wish they (Croc or Derek or whoever) had chosen a different name for that choir. It's distracting to me, and I suspect could be so to a fair number of other potential buyers. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:43:03 -0500 (CDT) From: "Austin G. Loomis" Subject: IN> Music, maestro? From the _Ainulindale_, the Music of the Ainur, as translated from the Quenya by the learned philologist John Ronald Reuel Tolkien (1892-1973), published in _The Silmarillion_. © 1977 George Allen & Unwin. Capitalization Tolkien's, emphasis mine. "There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Iluvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made. And he spoke to them, propounding to them *themes of music; and they sang before him, and he was glad. But for a long while they sang only each alone, or but few together,* while the rest hearkened; for each comprehended only that part of the mind of Iluvatar from which he came, and in the understanding of their brethren they grew but slowly. Yet ever as they listened they came to deeper understanding, *and increased in unison and harmony.* "And it came to pass that Iluvatar called together all the Ainur and *declared to them a mighty theme,* unfolding to them things greater and more wonderful than he had yet revealed; and the glory of its begin- ning and the splendour of its end amazed the Ainur, so that they bowed before Iluvatar and were silent. "Then Iluvatar said to them: *`Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music.* And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will. But I will sit and hearken, and be glad that *through you great beauty has been wakened into song.*'" Does anyone else think that sounds like an overture to the Symphony, or is it just me? And would anyone else who's read the _Silmarillion_ (specifically the Valaquenta) care to join me in the game of guessing which of the Valar can be mapped to which Archangels? For starters: * Melkor/Morgoth is plainly Samael/Lucifer * Manwe Sulimo is either Michael or Janus (or a blend) * Aule is closest to David * Yavanna Kementari matches pretty well to Novalis * Este, the wife of Irmo Lorien, is Blandine displaced Austin G. "Other thoughts, anyone?" Loomis ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 11:53:36 -0400 (EDT) From: IQJason@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> How can someone play a Djinn ? Carlos Duarte writes... "I NEVER, EVER, saw a harder "rolemodel" to play as a Djinn..." It's true -- they do take some effort to wrap your head around. In fact, that was one of my first list questions. "Those demons are complete psycho wrecks, and only a person with a story of being in a asylum can even BEGIN to think the way they should think..." Oh, I wouldn't know about that. It doesn't take a madman to understand feelings of longing and repression -- ever had a crush on someone you knew you couldn't have? Maybe they were involved with someone else -- a friend of yours, perhaps. Maybe someone in a position of authority. Doesn't matter. Either way, it'd be fruitless to pursue...but you still want them. So, you put on the "don't care" face, smile and go on...and, meanwhile, they're in your dreams every single night. Now, mortals have these desires. Djinn are consumed by them. (And remember, unlike mortals, Djinn are often asked to take on these feelings on command. That's what their attunement is all about.) After repeatedly having these intense rushes of dark devotion, it makes sense to try and *not* feel -- it makes the inevitable separation that much easier. So, they cultivate their apathy. "If I was a Djinn I'd either commit (celestial) suicide, redempt myself or would rebel against both Heaven and Hell.They need to feel some tenderness towards themselves, but they can't accept or endure the presence of other beings (except other Djinn)..." Your second sentence is explained by the first. As you express yourself, you don't know how it would feel to live as a Djinn. Maybe the Djinn feel that only other Djinn do. Same reason why veterans tend to associate with one another. "The Elohim that fell, fell because they reacted accordingly to their emotions... Habbalah don't react according to their emotions, they gain dissonance if they do!" The Habbalah also don't believe that they've Fallen all the way down. The Elohim fall not from emotion, but from fractured perspective -- they can no longer remain impartial. Habbalah are completely partial; they work based (essentially) on whim. And they gain dissonance from falling prey to their own schemes, not from feeling emotion in general. "Habbalah according to the "Dicionary of Angels" by Gustav Davidson are the punishers, the angels sent by GOD to punish the human beings, much like angels of the wrath of god." And that's who they believe they are. "More, Elohim is hebrew (if not mistaken) for "the one that came from the sky" Actually, the Hebrew is a plural form. It can be translated as "gods," too. Of course, Hebrew isn't the Celestial tongue by a long shot. Things get lost in translation. :) yours, Djinni Djinni, who can I turn to? - -J ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:47:01 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Mercurians At 3:06 PM +0930 6/11/97, Damian O'Dea wrote: >Charybdis GreyDragon wrote: [...] >True combat wombat ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Wouldn't that be reserved for a Servitor of Jordi? [K.K., who gave you my account PW? "You, remember? I asked." Oh, right.] - --Kamakazi, Lilim of Dark Humor ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:32:29 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> re:Gotham City... At 8:46 AM -0400 6/11/97, Hatcher Rhanyr wrote: >For those who've been on this list for a while, my write up of the >Azrael, the Angel of Vengence was based upon the DC Comics hero(??). >I did a more liberal approach to the character, keeping the personality >very similar. If anyone wants to check it out I believe the character >can be found at Elizabeth McCoy's Website: > >http://www.io.com/~arcangel/net.character.book/In-Nomine/InNomineChar.html For better effect, since I transfered the puppy and will delete it from my own drive soon, try: http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/ and go to the Rogues' Gallery. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 16:04:10 -0400 (EDT) From: gibsonc@nku.edu Subject: IN> need help!! This is a tough one for me, so I thought some of you might be able to help. In my game, my players have met a lilim who is trying to become bright. The problem is that she owes 4 more geasa. Here's the problem, I have come up with good ones for two, but the other two are gonna be a bitch. Both for me and my players. The ones I would like input on are one for Lilith herself, and the Big D, Lucifer. These need to be tricky, I have a very clever seraph of dominic playing in the group. There's no prizes for this but the satisfaction of knowing people will be enjoying your ideas. think about these, please. Jahon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 17:35:07 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> ...And I Thought I'd Never Ask a Kyrio Question... Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki wrote: > I think too few GMs make full use of "the rule of NO". (One might > argue I'm > overusing it, but that's another discussion...) That is, the GM has > the > right to diallow anything he doesn't want in his campaign. I see so > many > posts on RPG lists and newsgroups that start with "My player wants to > play > X and oh what can I do..." and I'm always stunned it never even > occurrs to > these people to say "no". I don't know... I think the players deserve the type of fun they want - and if they want this or that character, that's okay: it's their game after all. At least IMHO. Of course, I seldom got complete adventures *before* knowing all my player's characters. Instead, I do prefer moulding the story around them, sort of thinking 'What kinda troble can this bunch get themselves into??' It's a challenge, I know, but that's one of my pleasures as a GM. And RPG is solving challenges, y'know... Andre ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 11:58:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Dennis Castello Subject: Re: IN> How can someone play a Djinn ? >I was rather startled when I saw "Elohim" as one of the choirs, >because, yes, "Elohim" is one of the names of God. Many Jews >won't even pronounce that word, which could limit market share for IN... anybody who's that literal is going to hate this game for more than just the name of one of the choirs... >Personally, I wish they (Croc or Derek or whoever) had chosen a >different name for that choir. It's distracting to me, and I suspect >could be so to a fair number of other potential buyers. I happen to like the name. I also think that if you started to wash out everything that _might_ make someone uncomfortable very soon In Nomine would be reduced to an 8-page pamphlet with some screwy rules and zero background. Personally I'd rather see it somewhat controversial... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 07:22:46 +1000 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Loose thoughts on Gotham City... (Pt 1) John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > > > Batman - Seraph of Dominic. > > No way! Batman lies ALL the time about what he's up to. > Hmmm... actually, _Bruce_Wayne_ lies about what he's up to, but Batman rarely does... if you make that distinction it makes sense, but you do make a good objection. - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia Glass jaw, alcohol whore Cardboard cut-out lying on the floor Lame-brain's drunk again Stupid dumb-dumb cold plumb insane POP WILL EAT ITSELF, "Wake Up! Time to Die..." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 17:11:24 -0400 (EDT) From: IQJason@aol.com Subject: IN> Bombay Djinn (was: How can somebody play a djinn...) Carlos Duarte writes... "I NEVER, EVER, saw a harder "rolemodel" to play as a Djinn..." It's true -- they do take some effort to wrap your head around. In fact, that was one of my first list questions. "Those demons are complete psycho wrecks, and only a person with a story of being in a asylum can even BEGIN to think the way they should think..." Oh, I wouldn't know about that. It doesn't take a madman to understand feelings of longing and repression -- ever had a crush on someone you knew you couldn't have? Maybe they were involved with someone else -- a friend of yours, perhaps. Maybe someone in a position of authority. Doesn't matter. Either way, it'd be fruitless to pursue...but you still want them. So, you put on the "don't care" face, smile and go on...and, meanwhile, they're in your dreams every single night. Now, mortals have these desires. Djinn are consumed by them. (And remember, unlike mortals, Djinn are often asked to take on these feelings on command. That's what their attunement is all about.) After repeatedly having these intense rushes of dark devotion, it makes sense to try and *not* feel -- it makes the inevitable separation that much easier. So, they cultivate their apathy. "If I was a Djinn I'd either commit (celestial) suicide, redempt myself or would rebel against both Heaven and Hell.They need to feel some tenderness towards themselves, but they can't accept or endure the presence of other beings (except other Djinn)..." Your second sentence is explained by the first. As you express yourself, you don't know how it would feel to live as a Djinn. Maybe the Djinn feel that only other Djinn do. Same reason why veterans tend to associate with one another. "The Elohim that fell, fell because they reacted accordingly to their emotions... Habbalah don't react according to their emotions, they gain dissonance if they do!" The Habbalah also don't believe that they've Fallen all the way down. The Elohim fall not from emotion, but from fractured perspective -- they can no longer remain impartial. Habbalah are completely partial; they work based (essentially) on whim. And they gain dissonance from falling prey to their own schemes, not from feeling emotion in general. "Habbalah according to the "Dicionary of Angels" by Gustav Davidson are the punishers, the angels sent by GOD to punish the human beings, much like angels of the wrath of god." And that's who they believe they are. "More, Elohim is hebrew (if not mistaken) for "the one that came from the sky" Actually, the Hebrew is a plural form. It can be translated as "gods," too. Of course, Hebrew isn't the Celestial tongue by a long shot. Things get lost in translation. :) yours, Djinni Djinni, who can I turn to? - -J ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 14:31:10 +0500 From: "James Rand" Subject: Re: IN> Music, maestro? > * Aule is closest to David No, Aule is more Eli. Remember the part of the Silmarillion where the Tree is dying, and the Vala ask Feanor (Feanor RULEZ! Sorry, had to say that...) to break the Simarils so that the light trapped inside can heal the tree? Aule is the only Vala who understands what Feanor is going through in that moment... Aule is the Vala of making things, craft, and accomplishment. Tulkas is David, if you ask me. Very Malakim attitude, likes to trounce his enemies with nothing more than his bare hands. > Austin G. "Other thoughts, anyone?" Loomis Mandos = Dominic Orome = Michael And I think there is a remarkable similarity between Feanor and the way Milton portrays Satan in Paradise Lost. (One similiarity; they're both two of my favorite characters...) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 14:09:52 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Big Sad Kyrio Question On Jun 11, 9:47am, IQJason@aol.com wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Big Sad Kyrio Question > " Where's the imagination of today's youth? Hand > grenades, claymores, a knife through the gullet, poison, simple > strangulation, a hearty boot to the breadbasket... There's a _lot_ of ways to > kill a pigeon!" > > No one's posted it yet...the Essence is mine... > > "But it's not against any religion, to want to dispose of a pigeon." > Tom Lehrer, _Poisoning_Pigeons_In_The_Park_ > > yours, a little bit of strych-i-nine, I was hoping someone would get that... ;) Tom Lehrer is a god! Not _the_ God, of course, but _a_ god. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:43:42 -0700 From: Bill Bishop Subject: Re: IN> How can someone play a Djinn ? The Djinn sat alone in his shoebox apartment. He had a cold beer, a working TV, a working remote control and a comfy chair. The pro wrestling matches were just about to come on when his two companions, a Calabite and an Impudite walked through the door. The Djinn never bothered to lock it. "Hey Djinny," said the Calabite, "there's an angel in town, and seeing as how it's Friday, we figured it must be time for a crucifiction. Wanna come with?" "No," replied the Djinn, never even glancing up from the TV. He nudged the sound up a few notches with the remote. "But you don't know the whole story, my apathetic friend," said the Impudite. "This one's a Seraph of Novalis." "So?" he said, taking a sip of his beer. "This one has decided that there is too much violence on TV. She has decided that if she shuts down the cable company for a few days, people will learn they can live without television, without the WWF." It seemed like this took a few seconds to sink in. The Djinn then pushed the RECORD button on the remote while simultaneously pulling the sawed-off shotgun from underneath the chair. "We're outta here." ***** I think to play a Djinn you have to take with a grain of salt the assertion in the book that Djinn don't care about anything. I think that they care about very little. Just don't get in their way when they do decide to care about something. I think Djinn are the most tragic of all the Fallen. I think the Balseraphs have fallen farther, but the Djinn have fallen the hardest. It seems to me that the essence of the Cherubim is caring. In their fall, the Djinn have forgotten how to care in any healthy way. Caring for them is (almost) always one of two extremes: obsession and apathy. We already know how bad the Djinn can be when something goes wrong with their resonance. I think we can say the same thing by extension to all of their attempts to care about anything. If a player wants to be a Djinn, I think that as a GM you have to have a good idea what this Diabolical Slacker will care about. Will the character care about serving his Superior and/or the Superior's Word? Is there something in the mortal world they especially like? Do they feel especially attached to someone in the party? Apathetic people are bad enough in real life, but making an apathetic player character is a GMing nightmare. The players need to have motivations if you are going to provide them with drama. One reason that I think Asmodeus is the scariest of the Diabolicals is that he is a Djinn. He probably doesn't care about anything except seeing that the rules of the game are followed. I bet demons pray that Asmodeus will never pay attention to them; never *care* about them. As I think about this, it strikes me that those who work for Asmodeus may be the people who are the best at breaking the rules - "friends close, enemies closer." Now that they are under Asmodeus' loving care, his Servitors have all the reason they need to do their job well. ***** >More, Elohim is hebrew (if not mistaken) for "the one that came >from the sky" (or something like this), or in other words, god. >Now, if Elohim is one of the names of god or an choir bearing the name of >god, they should be Heavens guardian, no ? If memory serves, the Hebrew in the Genesis creation account says "Let us (elohim) make man in our image. It seems like there are broad hints in the game that either the angels created man (if not the world) either on their own or as God's agents. I think naming one of the choirs Elohim is one of these hints. > >Carlos Filipe Duarte > Bill Bishop http://www.primenet.com/~bjb bjb@primenet.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 15:04:42 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Elohim (Re: IN> How can someone play a Djinn ?) At 11:35 AM -0500 6/11/97, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Carlos Filipe Duarte wrote: > > "More, Elohim is hebrew (if not mistaken) for "the one that came > from the sky" (or something like this), or in other words, god. > Now, if Elohim is one of the names of god..." > >I was rather startled when I saw "Elohim" as one of the choirs, >because, yes, "Elohim" is one of the names of God. Many Jews >won't even pronounce that word, which could limit market share for IN... [...] >Personally, I wish they (Croc or Derek or whoever) had chosen a >different name for that choir. It's distracting to me, and I suspect >could be so to a fair number of other potential buyers. 'Cording to Gustav Davidson's _A Dictionary of Angels including the fallen angels_, p. 336, Appendix, there are 4 listings in "The Orders of the Celestial Hierarchy According to Various Sources and Authorities" that include Elohim or Bene Elohim. MOSES MAIMONIDES (in Mishne Torah) [...] 7. Elohim 8. Bene Elohim [...] The Zohar (Exodus 43a) [...] 8. Elohim 9. Bene Elohim [...] Maseket Azilut [...] 9. Bene Elohim [...] Berith Menucha [...] 3. Bene Elohim [...] And on p. 102: "El (pl. elohim) -- a term for God or angel. [...]" So, well... You can't really blame Derek for choosing that name for a Choir -- there's other sources that already do it. And you could always call them "Powers" -- I think that's their subheading. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 16:49:49 +1000 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: IN> Loose Thoughts on Gotham City... (Pt 2) G'day. Well, having sent (and then amended) the heroes section of this idea, here are the Bat-villains. Now, these characters are even harder to fit to the IN paradigm than the heroes were, because it's hard to match the motif/motivation/style to the limited ones available. I've made some fairly wacky decisions (oddest probably being the Joker), so feel free to take umbrage. The Joker - Shedim of Kobal Yes, a Shedim. No other Band, for me, captures the sheer evil of the Joker. I see this character, in the IN 'universe', basically being a free-floating villain. You think he's dead, you think he's locked up, but he keeps coming back, finding a new subject to possess and wreck evil. As far as servitors of Kobal go, he's _very_ dark - this is the kind of humour that no-one else finds funny... The Joker would have to be a Baron of Hysteria, and Word-bound - "Madness" is my preference. Penguin - Lilim of Aleamon This is the most recent style of Penguin, the manipulator and crimelord, not the wacko with the umbrellas. He's hardly your typical Lilim, being fat, unattractive and male, but he does set up favours and demand payment. Aleamon? Penguin does a lot of brokering in secrets, with his contacts in crime - and the Blackmail ability feels more appropraite than regular geasa. The Riddler - Calabite of Valefor Riddler's a bit of a sociopath, and an unpleasant chap, so he sounds like a Calabite. He also has few ambitions above theft, so he'd be a minor servitor of Valefor. Bane - Impudite of Baal Bane, the warrior who almost destroyed Batman, is a pretty clever guy, who knows how to use people. Probably an Impudite, although a Balseraph might fit as well (I'm unsure about this one). Baal is Hell's lord of Biff, and definitely the 'honourable combat' aspect fits Bane. A Baron of Victory. Two-Face - Habbalah of Kronos Hmmm... this one was tricky. The self-delusional aspect of Habbalah fits Two-Face's psychosis, but only just. As for Superior, it came down to either Kronos or Malpheas, since everyone else seemed inappropriate - and since servitors of Malpheas avoid fighting, that rules him out, so Kronos it is. Harvey seems to drag so many things down to his own level of misery that perhaps he is best thought of as an agent of Fate... Poison Ivy - Lilim of Andrealphus Ivy almost _has_ to be a Lilim - the archetype is just so strong. While she might work for Andrealphus now (Ivy is usually portayed as a seductress), she may have been a Bright Lilim in the service of Novalis in the past - becoming redeemed, working as a Bright Lilim, only to Fall again - from whom she picked up her love for plants. It could explain why she's so screwed up. My guess is that she's a Captain of Diabolical Delight, with the Balseraph's attunement as well as the Lilim's, possibly with the Word of 'Toxins'. Scarecrow - Balseraph of Beleth (oohh, alliteration...) Since what he does is create fear, it's the obvious choice. Scarecrow is also something of a liar and a cheat, so the Band also fits generally. Killer Croc - Djinn of Saminga Killer Croc is not a subtle character - tough, savage and mean - with good tracking abilites, so it seems like a perfect match of Band and Superior - particularly as Djinn of Saminga get no dissonance for killing the object of their attunement. Croc has a monstrous Vessel/6, makes good use of the Claws and Fangs Numinous Corpii, and probably has no distinctions. Anarky - Impudite of Lilith Yes, Lilith. Maybe she has no permanent servitors, sure (at least, none she's told anyone about), but perhaps some demons believe in the cause enough to serve her without any real benefit. Anarky in the comics is a teenage genius with serious beliefs in freedom and anarchy, so who better to serve in the IN world? As for the choice of Impudite - it's the Band with the closest connection to humanity, and that's who Anarky is trying to influence. Firefly - Calabim of Belial Hardly needs explaining, does it? Ra's al-Ghul - descendant of the Grigori, serves himself I admit to personal bias here. Ra's is the coolest of the Bat-villains, and the one least likely to serve a master. Ra's is centuries old, brilliant, determined and resourceful. He's the kind of megalomaniac I'd prefer to have be a human, simply to emphasize that humanity is, at heart, the important factor in the War, and the reason for the War in the first place. Unfortunately, human limits being what they are in IN, Ra's has to be a child of the Grigori in order to be an effective opponent - but at least he's mostly human. I also like the fact that angelic PCs have to cope with the fact that Ra's wants to kill off 99% of the world's population - but isn't Evil by the usual definition. In fact, as far as he's concerned, _he's_ the good guy... Now, who have I missed? The Ventiloquist... the Mad Hatter... Tweedledum & Tweedledee... Mr Freeze... yep, all the stupid ones I don't like. Someone else can bother with them. So, any thoughts? - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia Glass jaw, alcohol whore Cardboard cut-out lying on the floor Lame-brain's drunk again Stupid dumb-dumb cold plumb insane POP WILL EAT ITSELF, "Wake Up! Time to Die..." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 17:09:27 -0600 From: dpearcy@io.com (Derek Patton Pearcy) Subject: IN> Choirs and Bands Somebody wrote: The Elohim that fell, fell because they reacted accordingly to their emotions... Habbalah don't react according to their emotions, they gain dissonance if they do! (That thing of imposing emotions on other is crap... Habbalah according to the "Dicionary of Angels" by Gustav Davidson are the punishers, the angels sent by GOD to punish the human beings, much like angels of the wrath of god (their complete name is, if I'm not mistaken, Malake Habbalah and doesn't this makes one think something like FALLEN MALAKIM)). More, Elohim is hebrew (if not mistaken) for "the one that came from the sky" (or something like this), or in other words, god. Now, if Elohim is one of the names of god or an choir bearing the name of god, they should be Heavens guardian, no ? They should be the most pure manifestation of celestial "way of life" and not the "mathematicians of Heaven"... - ----- They don't gain dissonance if they act on their emotions, they gain dissonance if they fail to project their emotions upon others and *refuse to feel* the emotions rather than suffering the emotions. So when they have emotional blow outs, to *not* act upon their passions (as Elohim would try) generates dissonance. And yes, the Habbalah are listed in In Nomine as the Punishers -- and yes, they think they've been charged by God with punishing people. (Some say this makes *them* the greatest liars in Hell, and not the Balseraphs.) "Mathematicians of Heaven?" Does the picture of the Elohite in In Nomine look like a math major? ;) Remember that celestials' personalities vary depending on who they serve. Maybe Jean's Elohim could be characterized as Heaven's Mathematicians, but Yves' Elohim are Heaven's true empaths, Jordi's Elohim are Heaven's desert shamen, etc. Actually, the Elohim could really be considered the ultimate angels, being the best parts of the two most extreme Choirs -- they have the earnestness of the Seraphim with the sympathy for humanity of the Mercurians. Similarly, their Fallen analogs, the Habbalah, have the dark ability to twist reality around similar to the Balseraphs, while cherishing the same dark urges to ruthlessly use people that the Impudites favor. I was talking about this with Micah up at SJG the other day. It seems as though everyone has two Choirs and Bands that they really feel an affinity for, two Choirs and Bands that they have strong feelings against, and can generally take or leave the rest. Derek ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 19:11:17 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> How can someone play a Djinn ? >>>I NEVER, EVER, saw a harder "rolemodel" to play as a Djinn...Those demons are complete psycho wrecks, and only a person with a story of being in a asylum can even BEGIN to think the way they should think... <<< Really, this describes a lot of demons. How easy is it to empathize with a Shedim? >>>(That thing of imposing emotions on other is crap...Habbalah according to the "Dicionary of Angels" by Gustav Davidson are the punishers [lots more snipped]<<< As a more-than-cursory glance through Davidson's "Dictionary of Angels" (an excellent, excellent resource, btw) will show, trying to establish the sort of consistency required for an RPG based on the myriad sources of angelic mythology is impossible. You'll notice, for instance, that there are over a dozen different Choir hierarchies, and most of the traditional ones list "Archangels" as being the second-LOWEST-ranking Choir. Kyriotates, on the other hand, are a minor creation of a single author, while Mercurians are not mentioned at all. Meanwhile, the Angel of Dreams, the Angel of Fear, the Angel of Purity, the Angel of Lust, the Angel of Destiny, and many, many others from In Nomine do not correspond to those traditionally designated. Gabriel is usually classified as a Cherub (among other things), Shedim is just the Sumerian (or was it Bablylonian?) word for "demon", djinn (in Islamic lore) are neither demons nor angels, and....well, you get the idea. In Nomine draws from actual research on angelology, but don't look for exact correspondences. There aren't many. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 14:35:26 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Raphael Charybdis GreyDragon wrote: "Well, in the R.A. MacAvoy novels Raphael is a Seraph who befriends a mortal witch, Damiamo, and teaches him music..." Damiano *calls* Raphael "seraph" as a kind of nickname or affectionate honorific, but at one point, at least, reflects that Raphael is not really a seraph. Raphael is more often called an "archangel," one of a traditional set of four, along with Michael, Gabriel, and Uriel. I don't remember clearly, but Satan may be depicted as a fallen archangel. At least, Raphael speaks of Satan as his estranged brother. I don't think either "archangel" or "seraph" can be taken in any way that maps clearly to the IN concepts that use those names. While Raphael is certainly truthful, I don't know that he exhibits the concern with truth that an IN Seraph seems to have. He is so gentle and approachable, I tend to feel Mercurian is the most plausible choir for him. "Through extended contact with mortals in general and Damiamo in particular, he becomes "sullied" by contact with the Earth and is weakened to the point that Lucifer is able to strip him of his angelic powers and toss him to Earth as a mortal... "Weakened," yes, but I'd dispute "sullied." Raphael himself tells Lucifer that "I have done nothing against the will of our Father." (To which Lucifer replies with a heated "He's not my father!") "To do him from those novels (rather than from Biblical canon), I'd probably do him as a Seraph of Beauty (or of Music)..." That would be fine (waiving the issue of choir). I'd specify music. Working from the book of Tobit, where Raphael first appears, if I recall correctly, I'd make him an angel of healing and/or exorcism. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 20:28:33 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> need help!! gibsonc@nku.edu wrote: > This is a tough one for me, so I thought some of you might be able to > help. > In my game, my players have met a lilim who is trying to become > bright. > The problem is that she owes 4 more geasa. Here's the problem, I have > come up with good ones for two, but the other two are gonna be a > bitch. > Both for me and my players. The ones I would like input on are one for > > Lilith herself, and the Big D, Lucifer. Does she has to do favors for them or Lilith and Big D are the ones who must do the favors?? 'Cause if it's the first case, that means she will have to do Them a favor afterwards - and that will be *really* bitchy. If it's the other way around, Oh my...! That means she's *already* done 'em a favor... And I couldn't imagine what weaknesses she found in them... Andre ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 09:46:26 +0930 From: "Damian O'Dea" Subject: Re: IN> Choirs and Bands Derek Patton Pearcy wrote: > I was talking about this with Micah up at SJG the other day. It > seems as though everyone has two Choirs and Bands that they really > feel an affinity for, two Choirs and Bands that they have strong > feelings against, and can generally take or leave the rest. Interesting. Do the favoured Choir/Band correspond, in general? In other words, do people prefer, say, Seraphim and Balseraphs, or Mercurians and Impudites? Or do the favoured Band/Choir have no seeming (simple) relation to each other? ODie... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 10:20 +0930 From: "ZZ No Mail - dpo (leave)" Subject: Re: IN> Mercurians Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 3:06 PM +0930 6/11/97, Damian O'Dea wrote: > > >True combat wombat > > Wouldn't that be reserved for a Servitor of Jordi? Erm, um, Song of Possession with a particular bent for strange combat vessels? Would you believe... >--Kamakazi, Lilim of Dark Humor Would't that be "kamikaze"? Or is "divine wind" one that belongs to Janus? Haagenti? ODie... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 21:39:36 -0500 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> Music, maestro? Austin G. Loomis wrote: > > >From the _Ainulindale_, the Music of the Ainur, as translated from the > Quenya by the learned philologist John Ronald Reuel Tolkien (1892-1973), > published in _The Silmarillion_. © 1977 George Allen & Unwin. > Capitalization Tolkien's, emphasis mine. > And would anyone else who's read the _Silmarillion_ (specifically the > Valaquenta) care to join me in the game of guessing which of the Valar > can be mapped to which Archangels? For starters: > * Melkor/Morgoth is plainly Samael/Lucifer > * Manwe Sulimo is either Michael or Janus (or a blend) > * Aule is closest to David > * Yavanna Kementari matches pretty well to Novalis > * Este, the wife of Irmo Lorien, is Blandine displaced > > Austin G. "Other thoughts, anyone?" Loomis Manwe of the Heavens and Clouds comes closest to a much beefed-up Janus. Elbereth the Star-Kindler is Gabrielle gone supernova [pun intended]. Orome the Hunter is probably the best match to Jordi. As the father/creator of the dwarves, Aule could be a match to either David or Eli. Tulkas is either Michael [first pref.] or Laurence. Namo, called Mandos, the doomsayer is obviously Yves' Amber-shadow. enough already. tom, whose Word is Schnauzer: clamp down on a subject, shake it like a caught rat, and don't turn loose until it's really and truly dead. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #206 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.