From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Jun 18 18:00:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA29852 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 18:00:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA03292 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:31:41 -0500 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:31:41 -0500 Message-Id: <199706181731.MAA03292@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #216 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, June 18 1997 Volume 01 : Number 216 In this digest: Re: IN> "My name is..." Re: IN> Lies, convenient and not-so-convenient... Re: IN> A Couple of Questions Re: IN> Arches&Princes IN> Additional Artifact Limitations IN> Geasa: Different Perspectives IN> Singular and Plural Re: IN> Art Auction (Dan Smith fans take heed!) Re: IN> Re: Rules vs Story IN> It's Raining Archangels Re: IN> Calibim of Kronos with Belseraph attunement (Malaki IN> Novalis is NICE? Re: IN> Arches&Princes IN> Dealing with superiors IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #214 IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #213 Re: IN> Arches & Princes Re: IN> Omigod! a NON- Kyrio question! Re: IN> Calibim of Kronos with Belseraph attunement (Malaki IN> Arches&Princes Re: IN> Arches&Princes IN> Vessel Anatomy IN> Pagan gods... IN> Arches&Princes Re: IN> Novalis is NICE? Re: IN> Vessel Anatomy Re: IN> Pagan gods... Re: IN> Arches&Princes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 22:49:09 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> "My name is..." On Tue, 17 Jun 1997 09:12:25 -0500, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >... Since there's nothing >in the IN book about "true names" or similar, I wouldn't trip up >a seraph on something like "What's your name." ... Actually, there is. A check digit of 6 on a Seraph resonance roll gives not just the truth, but the Truth (p.94). Further, a Seraph of Yves knows the "true names" os anything or anyone (p.134). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 12:51:00 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> Lies, convenient and not-so-convenient... >The thread title inspired me to come up with one of my worst ever >puns, I think. Which I had to inflic- um, _share_ with everyone. > >Perhaps someone cleverer than I could come up with the plot for a >story called > > "Sex, Lies and Kyriotates" > A plot come to mind involving a conflict between a Kyriotate of Eli and a Balsereph(sp) of Andre. (allied with Kybbas just to make the pun deeper). -- Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 18:48:47 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> A Couple of Questions At 11:27 AM -0400 6/16/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >> [...]{Hehe..though it does bring up the question - do flowers (or >> stone, for Kyrios of David) dream?} > [...] > Flowers are _always_ dreaming... they are in >bed all day! (Ow! Stop throwing things! Hey quit it!) ;) But are they *asleep* there? I mean, they *do* talk about "bird and bees," and you know what bees do, right? (Oooo, kinky. No wonder Jordi and Novalis like each other. Their Kyrios are going around being disgusting right under the nose of Judgment.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 18:41:51 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Arches&Princes At 4:38 PM -0400 6/17/97, gibsonc@nku.edu wrote: >the question though is how much damage can one do. There may come a time >when a superior attacks another and servitors are called in to help. I >expect there forces to be atleast doubled. If you ask me, I'd say that the most that a non-Worded Servitor can do to a Superior is distract the Superior while the friendly Superior gets in more telling blows. You get into Superior vs. Superior combat, and it's going to be up to roleplaying and storytelling, not dice. (A GM should be careful not to set up things so that the players can't do *anything* to affect the outcome, though!) I'd say that clever distractions or heroic assaults will be more important than "how many hits of damage does the Malakite do to Baal" -- go ahead and roll damage, but fudge it ("You strike a mighty blow! The Prince flinches momentarily and swats at you.") and get the "general drift" of the combat. ("Let's see, the PCs have been striking home a lot, and doing a fair amount of damage. About now, they're probably getting *really* irritating -- the Prince is probably going to leave soon, from all these bee stings while having to face an Archangel (or other Prince).") Also remember that the least strike of a Superior is likely to make toast of a PC who doesn't dodge well. Go even more cinematic with the dodges -- if they make it, then they survive and may even be able to make another attack or two. If they fail, then they're either dead (heroically, hopefully) or otherwise out of the fight. Attacking a Superior -- even a distracted one -- is nigh suicidal. Now, having the PCs fending off enemy Servitors, sort of like point-defense for their Superior, that's easier to work with the existing mechanics. They take on the enemy swarm of demons/angels while the Superiors grapple. Or while the Superiors stand back and let their Servitors decide the contest, lest the devastation from a fight between Superiors toast large tracts of Earth that would be inconvenient to have toasted. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 22:49:04 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: IN> Additional Artifact Limitations A bit ago I asked how visible artificts were, suggesting the following scale (and I've added a couple elements at the end): 6. Brilliant strobe light: you'll see an artifact even through smoked glass out of the corner of your eye. 5. Bright light: you can see an artifact through smoked glass if you are looking in that direction. 4. Light: you can see an artifact through smoked glass if you're looking carefully. 3. Day-glow color: you can only see the object in conditions a mundane could see it, but it will catch your eye if you see it directly even peripherally. 2. Bright color: It catches your eye if you're looking generally in its direction. 1. Distinctive color: you notice it if you look right at it. The PC has to ask, "Do I see anything interesting?", or a least, "I seach the room." 0. Labeled, "This is an artifact," in black and white: you see it only if you specifically look at the artifact. IOW, the PC has to ask, is the object an artifact? - -1. Hidden: Even if you look at it, you will sense nothing unless you touch it. - -2. Secret: The OC has to touch it and ask specifically if it's an artifact. The consensus, I think, was 1, distinctive color; still, the Canon has some mention of buying artifacts merely so they could be easier to find for the owner. Even having your car be an Artifact/1 is likely to draw unwanted celestial attention if it's a unique color. In keeping with the +3 needed for a hidden artifact, I suggest that artifacts can be moved down on the above secrecy list for +3 points for cost, and moved up for -3 points, 3 points less expensive. Among other things this would allow effects like Raider's of the Lost Ark's Ark of the Covenant, which would be -15 points for being excedingly obvious. More mundanely with only a +3 penalty, it would allow the various artifacts to be actually useful instead of magnets for enemy celestials. In addition, to allow for booby-trapped, self-defensive artifacts, perhaps a +5 limitation could trigger activations of songs when the invocation fails. For instance, a weapon that burns the hands of anyone not its owner could have: attuned to the owner (+3), trigger (+5), and Numinous Corpus Acid/1 to /6. Thoughts? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 22:48:58 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: IN> Geasa: Different Perspectives I've been thinking about Geasa and some of the Geas and Lilim questions over the last few weeks: The Geas table on page 88 is a great way of clearly delineating the relative powers of the geasa: Geas Time 1 An hour 2 A day 3 A week 4 A month 5 Six months 6 A year LIkewise, the perception roll of a Lilim to sense a random perception where the check digit is the difficulty of the need sensed is in admirable concordance with the about table. We might expand on these bases in three areas: sensing the Need, fulfilling the Need, and what will pay off a Geas. It seems to me establishing a random Need would be inappropriate for an NPC or PC where the GM knows the character. GMs might well dispense with the perception roll to pick up an obvious Need, one that could be percieved without the Lilim's resonance; and when the GM knows of an obvious and important Need, I feel he should give that most important Need. For example, someone has just shot a gang member and the rest of the gang is moving in on him to kill him. It's raining, and now he needs an umbrella (Geas/1) and an escape (Geas/6). If a Lilim who saw the shooting and knows he needs an escape without using her resonance, uses her resonance to sense his Need and gets a 1-2-1, she should still be able to satisfy his Need for an escape, gaining a Geas/6. (The idea that she'd say, "Oh, you just shot someone, but what you *really* Need now is an umbrella for the rain." Well...) But, I think his Will reduction should be at only 1, the rolled check digit. This might make her decide not to satisfy the need, since it would be harder to collect on the Geas/6. Second, the timetable is clearly based on routine tasks: I think few GMs would want to equate, Geas/1: "Wait for the dryer to finish, and put my silk blouse on a hanger," with, "Here's a 100 round Tommy gun: see how many innocents you can kill in an hour." That all tasks are not equal is stated in the Canon, but it gives little guidance beyond that statement. I submit the following as Geas guidelines, though they should be taken as guidelines for normal humans--a psychotic or a celestial might have very different standards: 1. Do a favor 2. Breach a trust or do a big favor 3. Commit a crime or protect someone from injury or jail 4. Save someone from serious injury or jail time 5. Save a friend's life or save a relative from serious injury 6. Save your life or a loved one's life, or save yourself from crippling injury or a life sentence An additional guideline for more mundane Needs is how much time it will take for the Geased person to earn the money to buy the Needed thing, relating that time to the original Geas time scale. For a celestial, that cost might be put in experience points. Loss of a vessel might be trivial for a vessel/1 -2 charisma (-1 point), but a vessel/6 +2 charisma (28 points) should be very important--though by no means as important as life for a human. Just as a guideline (figuring on celestials gaining 2 experience per week), giving a needed resource to a celestial or preventing the loss of a needed resource might result in geasa of: 1. Inconvenient, but costs no points. 2. Costs about one point or would cause trauma. 3. Costs 2-5 points, or would cause dissonance. 4. Costs 6-10 points, or would cause discord. 5. Costs 11-50 points, or would soul-kill another celestial. 6. Celestial death (soul death). The third area is what you can get for a Geas. "Wash my car for a year," is different from, "Kill my enemies for a year." So I submit that following guidelines based on the effort envolved, though they might all fit into a Geas/1 time period: 1. Do a favor, like pick up some groceries; maybe give one essence. 2. Breach a trust, such as disclosing confidential information; do a big favor; or give few essence. 3. Commit a crime, like shoplifting or embezzling; hurt someone (aid them for some demons); do something to cause or remove dissonance; or give ten essence 4. Commit a serious crime, such as armed robbery; seriously injure someone; or cause or remove discord 5. Kill a stranger 6. Kill a loved one All of these can be done an hour, though it might take times consistent with the page 88 table for normals or celestials to force themselves to perform such acts. Geasa above six aren't really defined, but killing a loved one within the hour seems like a good candidate to be treated as a Geas/6 with a Geas/1 timescale, costing a net Geas/11, the Geas/6 plus moving Geas/6 down the timescale by 5. Of course, the essence equivalents aren't meant to give celestials an easy out in serving Geasa--the holder of the Geas decides what satisfies it--but they might be usable on occasion. "You know that Geas/4 I have one you? I've like you to rob that bank, but if you give me all your essence, I'll drop it to a Geas/3 and let you off the hook for now." Thoughts? Comments? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 17:18:35 -0700 From: zingaro@peak.org Subject: IN> Singular and Plural My Hebrew sucks. This up front, so nobody confuses me for a rabbi or a linguistic scholar. However. JHVH has been called Elohim on occasion, and the word was mentioned that often one used the plural form of a word to indicate just how much of that particular noun something was. So. Is it appropriate to say "That one Lilim" or "Those bunch of Malakites"? Zingaro, Cherub of Grammar in service under my old English Teacher, a Seraph. - ------- zingaro@peak.org Hello, my name is Bob. Will you please knock me out? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 20:28:17 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Art Auction (Dan Smith fans take heed!) At 12:26 PM -0400 6/17/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > Since Dan's artwork seems to be the topic of choice >right now, this seems a good time to mention that he's auctioning >off some of his artwork... some that made it to the In Nomine >book and selected other pieces. Point your browsers over to > http://www.sjgames.com/dansmith/ Okay, so why didn't they use that Malakite picture in the book? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 17:43:34 -0700 From: zingaro@peak.org Subject: Re: IN> Re: Rules vs Story > That *is* a horrible image. No, no, I wouldn't expect > that -- when given a puzzle that hasn't been solved yet, don't > wait for someone else to solve it. Asking "after the fact" is > much better. (But it *will* help establish what happens for those > who follow in your footsteps!) And remember, Initiate, that it is much easier to gain forgiveness than permission. - ------- zingaro@peak.org This is a video. Any time you see a cake and a baseball bat in the same video, the cake's gonna get its ass kicked. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 18:38:03 -0600 (MDT) From: Meera Barry Subject: IN> It's Raining Archangels From: "Paul F. Strack" > It is safe to assume that Princes and Archangels can more or less do > whatever they want. Including Fall or Redeem themselves. Heh. Heh. Heh. [Part of my general rule that NPCs get experience and suffer the consequences of their acts, same as PCs, a desperate Archangel or Prince with a bad roll...hee hee.] Though I was curious: If the Grigori were a choir of Angels, and thus susceptible to falling...what do they turn into? And what's happened to this band of Demons? [If it has been asked before -- my apologies; I have not been able to go through all of the old archives before my recent subscription to the list, but I did not see it up to the end of my browsing point.] \\ Mb \\ mabarry@xpert.net Demons like nothing better than corrupting Saints...unless they get a better chance. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:13:59 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> Calibim of Kronos with Belseraph attunement (Malaki A comment on: > I'd warn the Shedite to be careful about getting any Divine Interventions, > though -- re-experiencing multiplicity, you see, might "jar" it back > to its more angelic personality, causing it to go Renegade... I'd even take it a step further and say that if ANY demon was going to aquire their angelic-equivalent resonance through this, then they suffer the same risk as Habbalites, ie. the possibility of instant redemption! The reasoning behind this is that if they take their angelic resonance, then it's a 'simple' matter (divine intervention) to slip them over the edge and make them lose their demonic tendencies. I'd say because of this, Kronos doesn't give out this attunement very often. It's easy enough for Balseraphs to use, they'd tear themselves apart if they tried to copy Seraphim, but other bands may not have the same problems. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 18:30:39 -0600 (MDT) From: Meera Barry Subject: IN> Novalis is NICE? From: rogue@ez-net.com (RogueLdr) > I like Novalis just fine, but I can see some problems with her. She's just > a little *too* nice, you know? It's all well and good to be a kind and > gentle soul, but there is a *WAR* going on. The demons fight *dirty*. > Hell, some of the other angels do, too. Novalis' open-arm ways leave plenty > of room for a knife in the back. Nice does NOT mean stupid. Nice does NOT mean stupid. I'd repeat it a third time, but I think twice is enough. I approach the "Novalis" question from a couple of standpoints: 1) She's an Archangel. She wouldn't be where she is today, ACTIVE and with the attunements she can give if she wasn't tough. She's kind...which suggests to me she can afford to be, whereas a number of the others seem so desperate to violence, she gets what she wants *without it*. 2) "Flowers" is an awfully broad category. Looking at what is done with them (specifically thinking drugs and medicines, though there are other uses) she has an awful lot of power on earth. She may have had more power in the 60's of the United States...but that kind of ascension is noteworthy. Especially since her "Flowers" aspect seems to slip into powerful empathic areas. 3) She's doing her duty. It's easy to kick a demon's butt (especially waving that flaming sword around.) But she's going to do the work of God through peaceful acts? That's TOUGH during a war. And important -- because while every human soul won over to Good is a victory, the Celestial forces of a demon won over to the sides of the Angels is several times as important in this stage of fighting. 4) She's a Cherub. The way they're portrayed, she's going to be stubborn in protecting one of her own...and even if she has her own rules she'll follow, she's going to achieve her goals. "Most generally reliable and fanatically loyal." Or "This sort of single-mindedness is the most basic expression of their nature: constant and solid, aware and vigilant." As earth-momma as she gets, you NEVER HARM THE MOTHER'S CHILDREN... Some of her powers are very definitely kick-butt. Ofanites of Novalis are *cool*... (Have to admit to being a "Swamp Thing" reader for several years, too...) (Hey, can an Ofanite of Novalis do that trick into the microflora of someone's intestines? It's not under the visual movement, but the book says, "...or within (total forces) miles..." which it should be, even if you believe that thing about the intestines being several miles of cord.) I think if someone's simply playing her as a hippy peacenik, they're probably doing her an injustice. Writing her off that way is not only lazy, but similarly unjust. Novalis Quote: To a calabite: "Oh dear...Darling, is that truly necessary?" "*BOOM*" "Ah, I see you believe so." *FWOOSH*. "Before I send you back to where you came from, that nasty, nasty place...I suggest you reconsider your options for the future." *SPUT*. LintKing Note: "It says she's against UNNECESSARY violence. As soon as she decides violence is necessary...you're gone." \\ Mb \\-------------------------------------------------------------- mabarry@xpert.net Registration Geek and GM for ANACONISM III Anaconism 1998 - Science Fiction/Fact, Internet, Space Convention E-Mail: Anaconism@IBECC.Org WWW: http://www.xpert.net/ibecc/anacon Snail Mail Address: P.O. Box 21766, Denver, CO 80221-0766 Voice: 303.426.1847 Fax: 303.429.0449 - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:00:26 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> Arches&Princes > Also remember that the least strike of a Superior is likely to > make toast of a PC who doesn't dodge well. Go even more cinematic > with the dodges -- if they make it, then they survive and may even > be able to make another attack or two. If they fail, then they're > either dead (heroically, hopefully) or otherwise out of the fight. On a related note, but not exactly the same, in one game session I was running, my (angel) PCs got into a fight with a human gang being corrupted by a Shedite and Calabite of War working together. During this fight, one gang member was about to strike the death blow on the Soldier of God PC (serving Janus) and the Soldier's dodge roll came up 111. So suddenly Janus appears, plucks the knife from the gang members hand and casually tosses him out a window (only one floor up, he was knocked unconcious, not killed)! After a brief laugh, Janus disappears again. Somehow during the combat a fire started in the building so the Cherub of Gabriel decided now would be a good time to summon her! The Malakite of Laurence was suddenly possessed by the Shedite who started beating the crap out of the other angels using the Malakite's superior skills. Suddenly Gabriel appears, assesses the situation and casually backhands the Malakite, sending him airborne and straight through a brick wall. I was kind and the Malakite survived with 1 hit point left. The Shedite panicked and fled the angel, but Gabriel grabbed its celestial soul and fried it until it was dead (no Celestial Forces left). Then she casually turned to the Cherub and said "You called?" Just thought I'd throw this in as an example that superiors can pretty much do what they please, even when faced with odds that could kill (sorry, inconveniently discorporate) most PCs. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 97 02:42:00 UT From: "Hermes Trismegistus" Subject: IN> Dealing with superiors Elizabeth McCoy wrote: "Hint with dealing with Princes -- enemy or other -- I suspect that groveling until told otherwise is A Good Idea. Saying "Yes, Dread Prince," and "Yes, Dark Lord," and "Whatever you desire, Prince Andrealphus," and other varients is a good idea. (And if he says "Call me Andre," a smart Servitor says, "Yes, Lord Andre.")" I doubt this will ever affect gameplay, but what exactly are the correct titles for Superiors? I thought of a few that seem to fit, does anyone else use similar themes for their games? Or have you got any suggestions to fill in the blanks? What to call: Andrealphus: you really just can't go past Master/Mistress (B&D overtones) }:) Asmodeus: "Your Inquisitiveness" Baal: "Your Monstrosity" Belial: "Oh Igniferous One" (BTW - NEVER sing "Great Balls of Fire" behind his back) Beleth: "Fearsomeness" Haagenti: "Your Avarice" "Your Excessiveness" Kobal: "Your Dryness" "Great Satirical One" Lilith: "Your Deviousness" Malphas: "Your Divisiveness" Nybbas: "Your Host for tonight..." Saminga: "Exhumed Majesty" (remember he's very vain) Valefor: Vapula: "Mr. Gates" (or is your really close, just "Bill") }:) - -=- Blandine: "Your Passivity" David: "Most Immovable One" Dominic: "M'Lud" Eli: Who knows? Missing presumed orgying? Gabriel: "Your Combustibility" "Your Explosiveness" Janus: "Your Swiftness" Jean: Jordi: "Nice doggie..." Laurence: "Sir" (he's a military boy after all) Marc: Michael: Novalis: "Hey babe" Yves: "Your Omnipotence" (I know this isn't strictly true, but you'd try to butter him up if you had the chance) Kurt doombu@msn.com ====================================================== Servitors whose names are a dead giveaway: Mary Jane: Impudite of Novalis Rock: Seraphim of David The Elohim Formerly Known as Prince: Litheroy Colonel Sanders: Calabite of Haagenti ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 23:58:50 -0500 (CDT) From: rogue@ez-net.com (RogueLdr) Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #214 > >RogueLdr wrote: > > "I like Novalis just fine, but I can see some problems with her. > She's just a little *too* nice, you know?" > >True, but consider this-- The war is between good and evil, and some >aspects of good, like some aspects of evil, are just not overtly >martial. I mean, sloth and despair are evil, but it's really hard >to present a lot of hustle on behalf of either, for instance. >Likewise, mercy and kindness have to "go to war" in somewhat more >metaphorical ways than, say, truth or justice. > >Earl Wajenberg Point taken. After all, it wouldn't be very nice for Heaven to win the War, only to realize that they had become *just like* those they defeated. Assuming Heaven wins. - -Rogue ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 23:40:59 -0500 (CDT) From: rogue@ez-net.com (RogueLdr) Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #213 [Archangel Beth] >>>Oh, dear. Time to switch hosts? >> >>Ok, hands up att the kyrios on this list. > >How many hands do you want up? I mean, all of mine, or just >a few? OK, hands up for all the non Kyrios who saw that one coming? [Demon with Malakite Resonance, Archangel Beth] >>Even if he somehow convinced himself that *he* was not evil (e.g. he was a >>Habbalite instead of a Calabite), he would still be forced to hunt all his >>demonic companions. > >Bummer... Not to mention his Prince.... "Kronos, I summon thee...." "Yes, servant? Why have you called me?" "Cause you're goin' DOWN, pal!" [Odie] >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> Seraphim in white latex... Yeah. Yum. > >Hopefully the vessel, not Celestial form ;p ;p ;p > >ODie... Hmmm.... a six eyed dragon decked out in white latex? Amusing thought.... [Jahon] >I have a Q. My players are gonna be dealing with some Princes and perhaps >the Bringer of Light himself. On the off chance they get stupid, what >would stats be for a Prince, or Archangel for that much. Would they have >a strength higher than 12? > >Jahon No one's come out and said it yet, but I'd guess the answer is a firm yes. I believe there was a half formed promise a while back that we'd be seeing stats for Superior Vessels and such....? [Greydragon] > Cool! I'll have to harass the guys at Gamemasters enough that they'll >call me when it comes in... The poor guy that owns The Great Escape locally already knows and fears my voice over the phone, asking about IN stuff. He told me NM would be out approx. end of June, early July. - -Rogue ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 03:10:07 -0400 (EDT) From: "Michael C. Nutt" Subject: Re: IN> Arches & Princes I had a horrid thought... if Kobal becomes annoyed with the PC, he can inflict Discord as he sees fit. (OK, *any* Superior ought to be able to, I'd think, but this would seem to be more Kobal's style...) Kobal: "You have managed to seriously annoy me... I therefore award you my newest distinction : Membership in the Order of the Black Knight." Unfortunate Companion of Idiot PC: "Eeeewwww.... Your arms just fell off!" Idiot PC: "No they didn't... it's only a flesh wound, after all. Have at you, then, Demon Prince!!" Michael Teamwork is essential... it gives them someone else to shoot at. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 03:10:05 -0400 (EDT) From: "Michael C. Nutt" Subject: Re: IN> Omigod! a NON- Kyrio question! > On the other hand, if Adam thinks things through for half a >second, he has no particular reason to PUT his body in the Bag. There's >no particular problem with letting your Vessel just go on `hold' in the >Symphony, after all. Well, on p. 67, it does say "... another mortal body to go to *right then*, he cheats death." (italics in original) I had always interpreted this (and I *think* there's a reference in the FAQ about it, but I won't swear to it) as meaning that you had to manifest that backup vessel *on the spot*. The disadvantages would seem obvious, of course. That always seemed to me to be the whole *point* behind having a Body Bag... if, Whoever forbid, you got waxed, you didn't have to manifest in your *new* vessel in the same place as the people who just got through kicking your butt a few moments ago. You could always take your chances with Trauma if the situation was fierce enough, though... Michael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 13:29:23 +0300 (EET DST) From: Tapio Erola Subject: Re: IN> Calibim of Kronos with Belseraph attunement (Malaki > I'd even take it a step further and say that if ANY demon was going > to aquire their angelic-equivalent resonance through this, then they > suffer the same risk as Habbalites, ie. the possibility of instant > redemption! I'd say it won't be an instant redemption. It is just that the demon "See's the light" (pardon the pun) and realizes what kind of shit she is in. She still has to redeem herself before changing sides. (Note that IMHO one _could_ wrap it's infernal affairs up (especially if other's don't know about it) before running for it and thus improve one's chances of survival. But talk about walking on eggshells!) - -- Tapio Erola txr@paju.oulu.fi (No mail to txr@sliver.oulu.fi please) Matrimony is not a word. It's a sentence. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 06:43:13 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Arches&Princes Message text written by in_nomine-digest >Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 16:38:57 -0400 (EDT) From: gibsonc@nku.edu Subject: Re: IN> Arches&Princes the question though is how much damage can one do. There may come a time when a superior attacks another and servitors are called in to help. I expect there forces to be atleast doubled.< Mostly the attitude in the rules seems to be that Superiors do not dirty their hands in rough and tumble that often. The cause would have to be critical to both their words to overwhelm the worry about who is stronger, Lawrence and Micheal are the exceptions of course but any demon price is likely to leave[leaving the players staked out to cover his retreat.] rather than face one of those two head to head.. That sort of incident is going to hot up to a major incident and the other superiors servants will be turning up to help as well. Especially since they are likely to take a few rounds sneering at each other and probing each others defenses. Best to keep it in the background while the players deal with the other servitors. Any fight between superiors is only going to go on long enough for one to decide that pulling out is a better option than staying. And frankly if it comes to blows between superiors the side affects of their strikes against each other are going to be dangerous to celestial bystanders. Of course Micheal couldn't kill Lucifer/Iblis just throw himout of Heaven, so its possible they can't permanently damage one another without striking at their word instead of them. Which is of course what the players are doing anyway in their normal exsistance. Adam Dahak@Compuserve.Com Micheal "Good Afternoon Lord Satan, Your four-legged companion doesn't seem to be around." Satan "He's busy Lord Micheal." Micheal "Ah! then its just the two of us." Satan "As much as it can be in this mayhem." Micheal " Try this then." Satan " I see you've learned to aim so that you woun't hit the ground when you miss." Micheal " You can't keep retreating for ever, you know." Satan " I supose not. Tell me, Micheal, will your - eh- will your sword save you from my emerald?" Micheal " Find out if you dare." Satan"I will, if you'll give me a moment to -uh- here we go, then. There. Ah. I see your sword helped a bit, anyway, or you woulndn't still be alive. I'll be going now." Steven Brust - To Reign in Hell [slightly condensed] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 09:27:43 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul F. Strack" Subject: Re: IN> Arches&Princes On Tue, 17 Jun 1997 gibsonc@nku.edu wrote: > the question though is how much damage can one do. There may come a time > when a superior attacks another and servitors are called in to help. I > expect there forces to be atleast doubled. If it comes to that, I'd pick up a small handful of dice (4 to 6) and roll that for damage. Since most PCs only get to roll 1d6 + Power damage, it should make it clear that the Prince is on a different power scale. On the other hand, most PCs can probably survive such a blow, giving them time to flee. They *won't* survive a second one, though. If anyone is stupid enough to stand around and take a second hit, just kill them outright. If you have a Superior vs Superior battle, *don't* make the PCs attack the enemy superior directly. Instead, have the PCs fight against the enemy Superiors servants. I also think that direct Superior vs Superior conflict should be *incredibly* rare. Paul Strack | Madness takes its toll. pfstrack@math.unc.edu | Please have exact change. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ World of Darkness Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/wod.html In Nomine Page: INC2 - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/innom/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 09:53:25 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Vessel Anatomy The trhead about the spare vessel in the body bag raised the following question in my mind: What does a vessel look like on close examination? There's nothing in the book, and obviously some vessels can pass for perfectly human under all normal conditions, but on the other hand vessels do not need to rest, sleep, eat, or drink (though they do need to breathe for some reason -- probably game balance). So a celestial vessel isn't really a human body. So what do people think would be the result if, say, stray humans found the ever-popular body in the bag and turned it over to the local coroner for an autopsy? or does it look alive enough to turn over to the nearest emergency room as a coma case? Anyway, what would contemporary medical science find, after a good close look at a vessel? Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:12:21 -0400 From: Sean Michael Whipkey Subject: IN> Pagan gods... I just had this asked by by the assistant GM in charge of NPCs (Bubbles for short)... What do you think if a pagan god, such as Athena, decided she'd had enough of hiding out in the Marches and petitioned Heaven for "angel-hood" or whatever. I personally think that's something that would take longer then the average campaign to resolve; however, it's an interesting idea, and would put a nice plot twist into my campaign. Any ideas? SeanMike *****************Random Thoughts************* *I'm locked and loaded, and you'll have to pay - Oderus *I'm too high to type right now. - Balsac, the Jaws of Death *Nothing is more offensive then the truth. - The Heretic *Are you a real person or do you just play one on TV? - Oderus ***************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 08:52:38 -0400 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: IN> Arches&Princes At 04:38 PM 6/17/97 -0400, you wrote: >the question though is how much damage can one do. There may come a time >when a superior attacks another and servitors are called in to help. I >expect there forces to be atleast doubled. As much as they want to. Once again, this is best left to dramatic effect. If you want two Superiors slugging it out on the Corporeal plane, go ahead, but one of the major themes of In Nomine is that it's a very *cold* war -- everything is done through agents, Superiors oppose each other's *plans*, they don't duke it out in person. Jean is an unusual Superior in that he has a hands-on approach. -Loki - -- Kirt A. Dankmyer --- Academic Computing Specialist http://www.wfu.edu/~dankmyka/ -- (910) 759-4202 -- PGP public key available. For the Snark _was_ a Boojum, you see. --Lewis Carroll ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:37:18 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Novalis is NICE? Meera Barry wrote: 2) "Flowers" is an awfully broad category. Looking at what is done with them (specifically thinking drugs and medicines, though there are other uses) she has an awful lot of power on earth. For that matter, consider how much of the world food supply depends on flowering plants. Even rice and wheat are flowering plants, after all. And I don't think Novalis is strictly limited to angiosperms, since "flowers" is construed broadly enough to include a purely ethical concept like mercy. Novalis is the IN equivalent of Demeter or Ceres, who was so important in Greek myth that the Elusinian mysteries grew up around her and her daughter Persephone. When Demeter and Hades were on the outs over Persephone, Zeus himself acted as mediator to get the cosmic economy back on the rails again. Novalis, Jordi, and David -- plants, animals, and minerals -- jointly IMPLEMENT the vast process we live in and call "nature," I think. Plus supporting various aspects of the ethical world. These are not minor spirits. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:52:25 -0400 From: Sean Michael Whipkey Subject: Re: IN> Vessel Anatomy I'm thinking more like the angels from "The Prophesy" - they look like humans, but upon medical examination, such as an autopsy, they're obviously not. Which can make things interesting for the players, IMHO - trying to keep the bodies out of the hands of too-curious mundanes... SeanMike - ---- Sean Michael Whipkey, smw4s@virginia.edu Weldon Cooper Center for Public Service, Publications Div. 804/924-4185 (or -4188) voicenet, 804/982-5536 fax http://www.virginia.edu/~cpserv/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:44:26 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Pagan gods... Sean Michael Whipkey wrote: "What do you think if a pagan god, such as Athena, decided she'd had enough of hiding out in the Marches and petitioned Heaven for "angel-hood" or whatever." The only political note I'll make is that she'd do well to send out "feelers" and approach (by intermediaries) archangels likely to be sympathetic, to build up a support bloc before presenting the petition to the Seraphim Council. There may be a metaphysical problem. Just as humans are native to the corporeal plane, pagan gods are native to the ethereal plane. Human souls are qualitatively different from celestials -- they can become saints or boddhisatvahs, but not angels, and vice versa. So it may be that a pagan deity simply CAN'T become an angel. Instead it would have to become some equivalent to saint or boddhisatvah. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:45:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Wilmoth Subject: Re: IN> Arches&Princes Keep in mind a) for angels, destruction could conceivably lead to the eradication of your *Word*, not just your own Essence- the mere threat of such a thing, inconceivably, unimaginably worse than any mere Fate could be or mere eternity of unendurable torment, will probably be quite sufficent to keep any Archangel from direct conflict with equal caliber beings. (Note on Uriel the signifacance of him being 'taken away', not 'destroyed' by God, so Purity has not been removed from existence. Fighting Powers/lesser gods/Etheria is presumably thus not on the same scale as fighting a Prince; also, see below.) b) the only documented fight between Superior beings was the Michael/ Lucifer battle, which occured so early the threat of Word Destruction may not have been the factor it was now. (Besides, it was a Rather Unusual Situation, and God seems to have directly intervened to boot. Unless you assume the battle was fought on the fledgling Corporeal, which doesn't seem likely, this was all-out Celestial clashing; for Daystar to have survived, 'merely' Falling to the Darkest Fate instead of being destroyed eternally, probably required God to spefically acted- not something I would recommend an Archangel to count on every day.) c) In 'normal' Superior appearances, I would assume a Superior *automatically* succeeds in *any* situation *directly under their Word*. IF a directly opposing Word, or Lucifer, is not involved. Thus Laurence wins *any* strategic struggle involving armies, or any battle using swords (trivial by comparison, a holdover from when he had lesser duties). Michael wins ANY personal combat- even against Lucifer himself!- and can cause any mortal War to begin and end at will, if he chooses (which would be done VERY carefully, both to avoid infringing Free Will and to avoid Disturbance from attracting hordes of demonic attentino to the conflict. Not to mention that many Earth wars already have several Princes involved, exercising *their* Words in ways to stymie Michael as much as possible.) In short, instead of rolling dice, make the description of such 'automatic' effects as vivid and entertaining as possible. The 'War intervention' described above could go, for example: 'On the Seventh Day, march around the city seven times, with the priests blowing the trumpets... have all the people give a loud shout; then the wall of the city will collapse and the peopel will go up, every man straight in.' -Joshua 6:5, Basic In Nomine Scenario Book. OBviously, no matter how guaranteed an action is, it doesn't mean it's going to be *easy*... this particular case also involved used a few props like a big gold box with some old guy's stone tablets in it (currently in Warehouse 23.); these are always good for a little atmosphere. - -James, Prince of Fuzzy Stuff ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #216 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.