From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Jul 6 02:18:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA26551 for ; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 02:18:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA05318 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 01:13:21 -0500 Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 01:13:21 -0500 Message-Id: <199707060613.BAA05318@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #238 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, July 6 1997 Volume 01 : Number 238 In this digest: Re: IN> people who run In Nomine Re: IN> Calibim of Kronos with Belseraph attunement (Malaki Re: IN> Calibim of Kronos with Belseraph attunement (Malaki RE: IN> Character Sheet in PDF Re: IN> people who run In Nomine Re: IN> people who run In Nomine Re: IN> people who run In Nomine Re: IN> people who run In Nomine IN> Secret Human Resistance Organisations (was Some Free roaming thoughts. Re: IN> people who run In Nomine RE: IN> Character Sheet in PDF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 23:21:36 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> people who run In Nomine MR JOSEPH B CONNOLLY wrote: > The other night me and some friends sat down and tried running this > game. > Let me tell you, I've read the books, I've read the mailing list for a > > while, and I *love* the In Nomine setting. The rules for it, IMHO, > suck > severely. Not all of them, but they are not perfect either... More later... > Anyway, game balance isn't my main problem with the game. It just > seemed > like something most of the players pointed out as they were making up > characters. Yeah, I realized it too. Some attunements are fantastic and some are so... you know... some players even change their choirs upon seeing how poor is their *special* power... > The problem is how confusing and vague the rules are for > generating characters. I think it's a great setting, but the poor > layout > and hard to find, poorly thought out, and often arbitrary rules seem > to > prevent some people from enjoying the game. Unfortunately, that *is* a problem. I let the first player make his own character and three hours later he threw The Book across my room saying he would never play this game. I decided to make the characters myself for them to be able to get in touch with the scenario - because it's soooo great...! > I don't think the system is runnable as it is presented in the book, > although I've seen people posting various house rules, and canon > "patches" > for some of the various weak spots in the book rules. Well, runnable it is. And we focus mostly on roleplaying, so rules are not that important... > Anyway, I'm interested in how many people decided to just go with the > setting and the supernatural powers, but run the game with a different > set > of game mechanics. Anyone? Well, I'm having a session of IN live in a few days - I'll let you know. Concluding: I like the game, the scenario is great, the rules are no big deal - but so what?? We are GMs (the great majority, at least), we've got enough common sense to change, ignore and create whatever rule we feel like... And then send it to the list!! That's what this list are for, isn't it?? Andre ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 00:16:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Calabim@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Calibim of Kronos with Belseraph attunement (Malaki In a message dated 97-07-04 09:43:22 EDT, you write: << be from among the Fallen. (I'd still say they probably couldn't take the > Lilim Resonance, though, because they aren't Angels to start with..) Lilim aren't celestials, if you ask me. >> I would think that anything from the celestial plane is a celestial, but it raises an interesting question. I know that Humans do not become angels or demons, but is a formerly deceased human who achieves Destiny or Fate properly considered a "celestial"? - -Calabim@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 10:52:57 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> Calibim of Kronos with Belseraph attunement (Malaki Calabim@aol.com wrote: > I know that Humans do not become angels or demons, but is a formerly > deceased > human who achieves Destiny or Fate properly considered a "celestial"? The answer is yes - but they ascend to higher planes of Heaven, according to cannon... As for Hell, I suppose they would be a lot more accessible, once it's all in the low celestial plane. Andre ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 10:54:11 -0400 From: Denis Sarrazin Subject: RE: IN> Character Sheet in PDF - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC8931.DDBDFD70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've download the two PDF files (angel and demon) from the Steve Jackson = internet site, and I've had no problem bringing them and printing them = from within Adobe Acrobat 3. Are you sure you downloaded the PDF = version (I think they also have a GIF version or something). - -Denis - -----Original Message----- From: Jean-Fran=E7ois Dufresne [SMTP:gohlan@geocities.com] Sent: Monday, June 23, 1997 12:11 AM To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Subject: IN> Character Sheet in PDF Hi, I tried to download the two character sheets in the ressourse section = of the In Nomine web site, but the reader sais that there is an = unrecognized token in both files as well as several parsing errors. Thank you for = reading. 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------ =_NextPart_000_01BC8931.DDBDFD70-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 11:11:42 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> people who run In Nomine > > Strength5 - relatively beefy for a human - would have 20 body > > hits..most > > will range from more like 4 to 12..). > Yeah, that's a good point. The Celestials are hugely superior if > we compare them to humans. I got a human player (Human, not Soldier) and > he's pissed off because he almost never succeed in a roll... "How did Hm...actually, now that you mention it, the skills system leaves humans more blatantly underpowered than anything else...with an average Attribute of three, it's virtually impossible for a human to do -ANYTHING- by Default, and with an average skill level of three as well, they'll still be outright failing more than half the time. Even supposing their comparative lack of points "balances out" by having fewer things to spend them on...I can see where your human player is frustrated. (I don't actually think anyone in our group can reliably be called "human"...) Though, as I consider it realistically, I'd suggest taking the automatic Vessel precedent and giving humans a lot more leeway under the automatic action rule...considering that ANY such actions ARE going to be more "natural" for a human than for -ANY- Celestial, and considering that you hardly have to check for Intervention as often on the average human's life...if you only make them roll for it when they're trying something both difficult and fairly new, that'd about work out right - we DO tend to fail more than half the time on those. (On the "naturalness" of it, incidentally, I'm counting not only that the Celestial has, in almost all cases, centuries of life on the Celestial planes before they get earth duty to fight against...but also the note that almost anything a Celestial does technically entails changing the Symphony, which I think, actually, is neatly handled mechanically just by requiring rolls in places a human wouldn't be.) [And besides, think how happy your player'll be when you suddenly start telling him, "Oh, you can just do that.." Watch the Celestials get green with envy. "How do Angels ever get anything DONE?"] {Granted, you have to account that the Game of Reality has more complicated mechanics, offering bonuses for things like Time/Life books explaining how to do it and whatnot, but..} ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 11:23:41 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> people who run In Nomine > [David.Evans] > >First and foremost is "The Rule of NO", whereby you > >can simply outlaw a player's character before the game even gets off the > >ground if it's obviously geared _in_extremis_ towards muchos power in one [Charybdis] > Here, here! Nah, I have to go with David's corollary note. As a player, I've really never liked the Rule of NO being applied, post-creation, to the entire character. The Rule of How About Some Little Adjustments, Eh?, I find far more preferable, but...well, just letting them get themselves into heaps of trouble if they really take such an unbalanced approach to the character is my favorite. (There is otherwise the note that "combat monsters" aren't purely a game phenomenon...there really are people like that, frightening as that thought may be...) > [Kingsley Lintz] > >> I don't know...I like the IDEA of the d666, but in practice, it's > >> definitely too simplistic..*sigh* Too easy to get automatic successes, > I rather like the simplistic mechanics... But then again, I'm the sort > who can go whole sessions without asking my players for a single die > roll... I guess some of my disappointment on it is the personal note that we've been turning to In Nomine somewhat specifically for a break from Amber Diceless, so we're doing it in part FOR the different feel you get from rolling dice a lot.. Other than that, a lot of this is coming down to a point I've seen too many times for too many systems; "We're GMs...who cares if the actual system is flawed, we can tweak it." I used to use that one a lot, but over the last couple years I've gradually come round to the feeling that, "Well...yeah, but if we have to tweak more than a couple points, why did we pay money for this thing?" (In In Nomine, of course, it was for the setting and the cool cover art - I love the burning feathers. But, well...though I'm gradually twisting things around in my mind such that I can deal with them without too many alterations, I have to admit I'm still a little disappointed in the mechanics.) > Or ask them to make rolls just to rattle them up, and do nothing with them... Well, that's a given. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 18:19:17, -0500 From: ErinTheBlack@prodigy.com (MR JOSEPH B CONNOLLY) Subject: Re: IN> people who run In Nomine - -That was probably me. No to both, because I never actually did it. - -You know why? Because it would be an awful lot of work. Hey, summer - -school's over now, though, so I may get around to it. I've got this job in a lab that involves me sitting around for several hours a day just basically answering people's questions every now and then and making sure no one vandalizes or steals these expensive computers. I'll probably write up the Cyberpunk 2020 rules conversion thing eventually. We ran a game working with cyberpunk-style characters, and it came off pretty well. It's a great system, I recommend it. If you do get around to making up the White Wolf conversion, please e-mail me. We could compare notes. --Joe ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 18:19:15, -0500 From: ErinTheBlack@prodigy.com (MR JOSEPH B CONNOLLY) Subject: Re: IN> people who run In Nomine - -points added to the Power of an attack would make a difference...and to an - -extent, there's actually NOT that much difference between a battle axe and - -a machine gun, except the note that it's generally easier to go at someone - -with the latter. (Their Accuracies I have more problems with, and their - -`unarmed combat' lack of system is a serious hole, but..) I have to contradict you on that one. The difference between a sword, battle axe, whatever edged weapon you want to talk about here, and a modern firearm is enormous. The big difference is in the way a bullet entering the body effects it as opposed to the way an edged weapon striking it behaves. Depending upon what type of ammunition was used, bullets differ quite a bit, but they do intense amounts of damage to the tissue surrounding the entry point. The amount of force the body absorbs from a decent bullet is vastly more than even the strongest battle-axe wielder can produce. Then if you want to talk about mercury-tips, black talons, hydro-shocks, etc. it gets even more ghastly. I worked in an inner city hospital's emergency room for a while. If you're talking about someone who has been shot in the leg versus someone who has been stabbed in the leg, the difference probably isn't so extreme, but a bullet in the gut versus a sword or crossbow bolt (which we saw a lot of, believe it or not) in the gut is just no comparison. The bullet is going to complicate things. I understand that in a role playing game, people like to play characters who run around in gunfights with swords. Therefore, game systems are designed to accomodate this. - -I didn't have TOO much trouble with that, though I will admit - -there are a couple of big glitches in the layout on character - -generation..(the effects of Vessel levels coming under Combat, for - -example, and the comment about buying new Choir Attunements for 5 points - -only showing up way off under Archangels Yeah, *THAT* was annoying. I had to personally sit down and help each player make a character except for the one guy who had run In Nomine himself before. Even then, they kept coming up with questions I couldn't find answers for, so I had to make a million off the cuff decisions. Then I'd forget what I had decided, and with everyone shooting questions at me it got to be a major pain. - -But, to actually answer your question ()...no, not really, - -but we have considered dumping the mechanics almost entirely and just - -going by feel. {Using the Amber Diceless system's `mechanics', as it - -were..} Yeah, I understand the Amber system is pretty cool. I run a great deal of my games that way. Still, I like to have well thought out rules lying around that I can ignore or not ignore, depending upon my whim. --Joe ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 10:37:48 +1000 (EST) From: Peter Frederick Subject: IN> Secret Human Resistance Organisations (was Some Free roaming thoughts. >Charybdis GreyDragon wrote: > >> And just the concept that there is such an agency could >> complicate matters >> for groups that are primarily Celestial... As if the Angels and >> Demons >> didn't have enough to worry about with fighting each other while >> sticking >> with their resonance to avoid Disonnance, without creating too much >> noise >> in the Symphony, they can now have to worry about those humans "In the >> >> Know" interfering too... :) >> > Wow, I liked it!!! By the way, any1 has seen the MIB movie?? It >can serve for a humorous campaign... > > Andre On the topic of "Secret Human Interferance" I was trying to tinker with a version of "The Inivibles" from the comic of the same name created by Grant Morrison and published by DC. If it solidifies at all I'll post it, not to try to stop anyone else having a hack . Might still try to do something along those lines in my campaign, love it when I joke with a player about something and then put it in for real anyway :) . Thanking you for your indulgence. Yours Peter. Email to peterf@geko.net.au "Whoso loveth God truely must not expect to be loved by Him in return." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 19:46:40 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> people who run In Nomine > -points added to the Power of an attack would make a difference...and to an > -extent, there's actually NOT that much difference between a battle axe and > -a machine gun, except the note that it's generally easier to go at someone > I have to contradict you on that one. The difference between a sword, > battle axe, whatever edged weapon you want to talk about here, and a modern > firearm is enormous. The big difference is in the way a bullet entering Ah..I will, of course, accept your word on it, since I don't have any actual experience.. (I do know bullets have more potential to do a lot of damage, especially if they get bouncing around inside, but... the Connections where Burke starts off hacking into a side of meat with a sword stays with me.) > produce. Then if you want to talk about mercury-tips, black talons, > hydro-shocks, etc. it gets even more ghastly. I worked in an inner city Those, I think, would require their own modifiers anyway... > hospital's emergency room for a while. If you're talking about someone who > has been shot in the leg versus someone who has been stabbed in the leg, > the difference probably isn't so extreme, but a bullet in the gut versus a > sword or crossbow bolt (which we saw a lot of, believe it or not) in the > gut is just no comparison. The bullet is going to complicate things. Which is, of course, one of the problems with most RPGs...not many account for where someone gets it, and almost none do it with any degree of realism, while the few that have a go at it rapidly get far too complicated...*sigh* > -going by feel. {Using the Amber Diceless system's `mechanics', as it > -were..} > Yeah, I understand the Amber system is pretty cool. I run a great deal of *ahem* Well...that's not really a discussion for the In Nomine list. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 01:07:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Davidson Subject: RE: IN> Character Sheet in PDF On Sat, 5 Jul 1997, Denis Sarrazin wrote: > I've download the two PDF files (angel and demon) from the Steve Jackson >internet site, and I've had no problem bringing them and printing them >from within Adobe Acrobat 3. Are you sure you downloaded the PDF version >(I think they also have a GIF version or something). > No, I have the *.pdf version of the file, and I have the same problem. It says "Unrecognized token 'gs' was found." A *.gif file would not work with Adobe Acrobat, anyway... I know you knew that, but I just wanted to prove that *I* do, too. Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us - -------------------- Don't panic! I have a new .sig! - -------------------- Instruction Booklet for this message: STEP 1: Open mouth. STEP 2: Insert foot. STEP 3: Chew vigorously. STEP 4: Repeat as needed. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #238 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.