From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Jul 7 04:19:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA21562 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 04:19:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA24647 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 03:24:14 -0500 Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 03:24:14 -0500 Message-Id: <199707070824.DAA24647@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #239 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, July 7 1997 Volume 01 : Number 239 In this digest: Re: IN> people who run In Nomine Re: IN> people who run In Nomine Re: IN> people who run In Nomine Re: IN> Some Free Roaming Thoughts... Re: IN> GenCon Revisited Re: IN> people who run In Nomine Re: IN> Kyrio/Shedim/Possession vs. Cherub/Djinn/Attraction questions Re: IN> Secret Human Resistance Organisations Re: IN> Beelzebub, Prince of Beasts (LONG) Re: IN> Disturbances Re: IN> Kyrio/Shedim/Possession vs. Cherub/Djinn/Attraction questions Re: IN> Beelzebub, Prince of Beasts (LONG) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 02:05:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Calabim@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> people who run In Nomine In a message dated 97-07-05 00:26:19 EDT, you write: << Yeah, that's a good point. The Celestials are hugely superior if we compare them to humans. I got a human player (Human, not Soldier) and he's pissed off because he almost never succeed in a roll... "How did humans do anything in this world???", he cries. Hmmm, giving it a little thought, it's pretty true... >> EH?! Okay- I see where you're coming from, but I must say I haven't had anything like this problem. It is true that humans have poor stats...they have distinct advantages , though these tend to be of a role playing nature. They don't have to cow tow to an archangel, they don't cause disturbance, and at least in my game, my angels have a tendancy to be more concerned with a human's welfare than their own. But to never make a roll... usually my humans forces are 2 corperal, 2 etherial, and 1 celestial. That varies but it's most often some close variation of a 2, 2, 1 pick. That means that a stat of 4 is not uncommon. With twenty points of skill you could have five skills a 4 points each, giving them an 8 or less roll. That's over the 50% success mark. You could miss all your rolls, but that's cursed die rolling, not the fault of your stats. And that's only a mundane! Think what could be done with a soldier. If you don't want a soldier, and a mundane is too mundane, try a mundane with an extra 20 character points, and an exceptional career path to justify it. It's available as a servant, why not as a pc? It only gets 4 cp more than the angels, and it gets four forces less! It would be a stretch to say it crumbles game balance. The only real reason not to is because the mortal is no longer mundane, he's exceptional. But if someone wants to play an exceptional human, let him. If he wants to play a mundane, he should be prepared to deal with the consequences. - -Calabim@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 16:28:53 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> people who run In Nomine > [Possible quote: "Cry Havoc and let slip the dogs of > war!" Or maybe that's another one for Baal...] No - that quote goes to Micheal. Baal is too cold for that quote. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "I seem to have forgotten what families are actually for...Families seem to be a form of SM relationships without safewords." - Neil Hudson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 16:28:53 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> people who run In Nomine > I especially like GMing the unexpected divine and infernal interventions > when they come up. It can be lots of fun trying to think of things that > can happen that fit the circumstances in such cases... Ever had somebody roll an intervention when summoning their Superior? It can get ugly... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "I seem to have forgotten what families are actually for...Families seem to be a form of SM relationships without safewords." - Neil Hudson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 16:28:53 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Some Free Roaming Thoughts... > >2) While I liked the description of the Grigori given on this list/digest, > >the Nephallim have left a bad taste in my mouth. If I'm reading the > >description of the Grigori right, then *all* the Grigori fell. The > >Nephallim were children of the Grigori: "Legends say that the children of > >the Grigori created were... known... as the Nephallim...." > > You don't have to have them all fall, if you don't want to. Just > randomly browsing through everyone's favorite resource (Dictionary of > Angels) I happened upon a short list naming the Watchers who did /not/ fall. Is this Dictionary a web resource, or a book? Either way, what is the ISBN/URL? Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "I seem to have forgotten what families are actually for...Families seem to be a form of SM relationships without safewords." - Neil Hudson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 16:28:53 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> GenCon Revisited > >Oops da Ogre, and we just broke down and bought a hardback version of IN > > Demonic cover, of course. I loved some of the looks I got. ;'} > > I finally broke down and bought a SECOND hardback IN - this time demonic > (the first was angelic). As long as we are on the subject, I was wondering how long the hardcovers are going to out? I saw one at ConMan, and thought about buying it, but I was low on cash. Now I have a job, and lots of disposable income (my only costs are gas and insurance for my car), and I would like to buy a copy. If I can, though, I'd like to buy from a local store - if it is a real limited run, though, I will buy direct from SJG. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "I seem to have forgotten what families are actually for...Families seem to be a form of SM relationships without safewords." - Neil Hudson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 16:28:53 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> people who run In Nomine > > I recall someone a while back said they were thinking about converting the > > game to White Wolf style rules. Did they ever post it to the list? If so, > > is it on a web page somewhere? > > That was probably me. No to both, because I never actually did it. > You know why? Because it would be an awful lot of work. Hey, summer > school's over now, though, so I may get around to it. I am actually working on this, for a Wod/IN crossover (yeah, predictable and all, butit should still be immense fun). If you want to work on it together, please write me. > > I don't think the system is runnable as it is presented in the book, > > I agree. What you've said here is exactly my initial impression of > the game. "Cool art! Cool setting! Oh, but do the rules suck..." > [I bought the game solely based on the illustration of Michael.] Well, WoD rules are kludgy, too. OTOH, they are less obviously broken - at least the chance of succeeding *well* at something increases with ability. :-) Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "I seem to have forgotten what families are actually for...Families seem to be a form of SM relationships without safewords." - Neil Hudson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 01:06:56 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Kyrio/Shedim/Possession vs. Cherub/Djinn/Attraction questions On Fri, 4 Jul 1997 13:00:23 -0600 (MDT), Kingsley Lintz wrote: > Though, while a Kyriotate can "go Celestial" with only 3 Forces, I >would personally rule that actually ascending to Heaven (off the Corporeal >plane, as has been noted elsewhere) would still require the entire >Kyriotate go. It IS a bit of a jump, after all.. Canon--at the end of the Kyrio section--is that they can be on multiple planes at the same time. Since a Kyrio can only manifest once in Celestial form, in practice, I think that means one presense in either the Celestial or Ethereal plane and however many on the Corporeal plane. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:23:43 +1000 (EST) From: Peter Frederick Subject: Re: IN> Secret Human Resistance Organisations Dear Patrick At 08:00 PM 6/7/97 +1000, you wrote: >Peter Frederick wrote: >> On the topic of "Secret Human Interferance" I was trying to tinker with a >> version of "The Inivibles" from the comic of the same name created by Grant >> Morrison and published by DC. If it solidifies at all I'll post it, not to >> try to stop anyone else having a hack . Might still try to do >> something along those lines in my campaign, love it when I joke with a >> player about something and then put it in for real anyway :) . > I though about doing an Invisibles game for a while. It really has >the feel I would have liked to have had in my MAGE campaign... but >didn't. Invisibles, with its large range of weirdness and cool stuff, >fits the highly eclectic world of MAGE. > I also had recent thought for a 'Blank Badge' campaign, using the >NEXUS rules (a fairly generic system similar to FENG SHUI), since that >has a very forgiving and flexible magic/powers/special talent system. > God damn, I love The Invisibles (in fact, I'm working on an essay for >the recent letter-column competition). I'm not sure a role-playing game >could ever be quite as cool... but it would be pretty neat to try, no? It would be a way cool game, but very easy to stuff up I think. I can see it as a Mage variant and perhaps a TORG one, not had anything to do with Feng Shui, but from what I have read it looks pretty interesting. Only IN related thing that I have thought of so far is the "Anti-Role". The Invisibles forge themselves a "Celestial" personality with which they can intereact with the higher planes of existance. This lets them do things that normal Humans and Soldiers wouldn't be able too, but at the cost of causing Disturbances like a Celestial while they do those things. Thanking you for your indulgence. Yours Peter. Email to peterf@geko.net.au "Whoso loveth God truely must not expect to be loved by Him in return." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jul 97 02:08:09 UT From: "Hermes Trismegistus" Subject: Re: IN> Beelzebub, Prince of Beasts (LONG) (snipped to cut to the chase) >> Relations: Allied: Saminga Associated: Beleth, Lilith Hostile: Asmodeus, Haagenti, Malphas Enemy: Nybbas << I must admit I really do like Beelzebub, although I had always imagined him as a Lord of Pestilence (this is a really cool writeup BTW). The only thing that I thought was slightly amiss was the relations (listed above). Are there any real ties to Beleth and Lilith that would be of advantage to Beelzebub (apart from the fear that Beleth revels in - but that is not directly tied to the physical world)? Baal seems to be more closely linked to Beelzy's ideals IMO. Just thought I'd chip in my two cents, Kurt doombu@msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:17:55 +1000 (EST) From: Peter Frederick Subject: Re: IN> Disturbances Dear Walt, Martin and List [Peter] >More information than "Something's Up." > > > >[me: Actually, Canon (p 55, 2nd col, bottom) allows you to get a vague >idea of what the disturbance was (CD is 3+), or a detailed description of >it (CD is 6). Certain attunements allow more, such as Malakim of Yves.] Ergh time to go back and read the rules again, brain not what it use to be :) . >I know that the "Noise" of a disturbance is not a real noise but real >noises don't just add up in a directly mathematical way, as far as I know, >they tend to overwrite each other to some degree. Should Disturbances add >directly, or should they combine to something maybe not as big, say half >the smaller of the two before adding? This "discounting factor" could be >bigger if the origin of the disturbances is different (eg a song and >corporeal damage) and smaller if the disturbance comes from repeated similar >actions (eg our sniper). > >[ Canon implies either they add, or are toatally separate. I like my >`bleeds off at 1/min' rule better though - it allows for partial >association.] Uhuh, and the thing which makes me think that the Canon way is superior is that it is less complicated, enough to keep track of in this game already, just thought it was worth a bit of a think. >On the other hand the bullets will do the same damage to >whatever they hit so there is gonna be a disturbance at the other end no >matter what his skill is . > >[Of course, some things are more important to the Symphony than others.] [Walt] >If the bullet killed a few blades of grass, I wouldn't rule a disturbance; >nor nicking a rock. Maybe 1 point of disturbance for getting a rabbit. Oooo that's a dangerous thought. If somethings are more important to the symphony then they should make a smaller disturbances. So how does God feel about animals? The +10 is only for killing Humans. What about other Hominids?? How about a patient in a coma? If I kill you and it doesn;t make a sound does that mean you weren't a person, or that God didn't care about it? >[Disturbance works on a square. Range that a Disturbance can be heard >with an unmodified Perception roll is (CF)*(DoD)^2 yards. (CF is >hearer's Celestial forces.) This happens to be what you observed >(3^2=9).] Uhuh, I actually got it from Paul Strack and Walt Mazur's fine pieces on the maths of Disturbances. What sort of got me was that this seems an unnatural sort of relationship, which is probably a silly thing to orry about given the mechanic we are talking about. It just annoyed me for a minute :) . Thanking you for your indulgence. Yours Peter. Email to peterf@geko.net.au "Whoso loveth God truely must not expect to be loved by Him in return." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 23:22:03 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Kyrio/Shedim/Possession vs. Cherub/Djinn/Attraction questions > On Fri, 4 Jul 1997 13:00:23 -0600 (MDT), Kingsley Lintz > > Though, while a Kyriotate can "go Celestial" with only 3 Forces, I > >would personally rule that actually ascending to Heaven (off the Corporeal > >plane, as has been noted elsewhere) would still require the entire > >Kyriotate go. It IS a bit of a jump, after all.. To which Walt Mazur replied; > Canon--at the end of the Kyrio section--is that they can be on multiple > planes at the same time. Since a Kyrio can only manifest once in Celestial > form, in practice, I think that means one presense in either the Celestial > or Ethereal plane and however many on the Corporeal plane. I'd originally read that as applying more to between the Corporeal and Ethereal planes, but looking at it more closely, you're right... The best support for the second note (eg. one presence on the Ethereal) is that the Attunement Blandine gives her Kyrios is the ability to have several... (Though, actually, I'd take that as multiple dreamscapes specifically...a Kyrio should reasonably be able to manifest in several places in a single person's dream if they have enough Forces there anyway...) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 01:21:16 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> Beelzebub, Prince of Beasts (LONG) >I must admit I really do like Beelzebub, although I had always imagined him as >a Lord of Pestilence (this is a really cool writeup BTW). Thank you. We put a fair amount of work into it. He's not nearly as subtle as most of the Princes I like, but fits in well IMHO and shows a Prince and Word in change, something that presents an interesting situation. >The only thing that I thought was slightly amiss was the relations (listed >above). Are there any real ties to Beleth and Lilith that would be of >advantage to Beelzebub (apart from the fear that Beleth revels in - but that >is not directly tied to the physical world)? Baal seems to be more closely >linked to Beelzy's ideals IMO. Well, this is being written late at night and a few weeks after the long road trip where we cemented his personality and opinions, so if they don't seem very convincing, perhaps I will do better in the morning. Beelzebub considers Beleth a kindred spirit, for the wolf's howl just outside the campfire's glow has always been an assured way to bring fear and savage reactions from humanity. Also, they both appreciated the joy of the slow hunt as only Djinn can. Admittedly, it's a fragile relationship, for Beleth has not helped Beelzebub in his reascension among the Damned, and his previous fond memories of her are wearing thin. Beelzebub likes to think that Lilith and his own goals coincide for the most part, with his current emphasis on liberating man from the weakening tangle of society's strictures. Lilith has not been very warm in welcoming his intimations of alliance, but he is sure that she is merely playing it safe until his power base is secure again. He is also somewhat smitten with her, but that is one of the drawbacks of being a Djinn and something he would be disbanded before admitting. As far as Baal goes, the Balseraph's sense of honor grates on Beelzebub's nerves a bit too much for them to work well together; he cannot fault their courage and skill, but the servants of the War still appear suspiciously tame and weak to him. And as a side note, belial, as well as Vapula, have become more worthy in his estimation as he has moved away from exemplifying the wild animal in form towards the beast within. >Just thought I'd chip in my two cents, >Kurt >doombu@msn.com Thank you, it's nice to know that someone appreciated it. Oops da Ogre, off to bed mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #239 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.