From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Jul 11 20:46:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA25109 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 1997 20:46:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA30921 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 11 Jul 1997 18:11:44 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 18:11:44 -0500 Message-Id: <199707112311.SAA30921@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #243 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, July 11 1997 Volume 01 : Number 243 In this digest: Re: IN> The Invisibles? Re: IN> Animal Vessels IN> The Weekly World News? Re: IN> Animal Vessels Re: IN> Animal Vessels Re: IN> The Weekly World News? Re: IN> Animal Vessels IN> In Nomine: support materials? IN> Moral Decisions Re: IN> The Invisibles? RE: IN> Moral Decisions Re: IN> Moral Decisions Re: IN> Moral Decisions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 15:32:29 -0500 (CDT) From: Austin George Loomis Subject: Re: IN> The Invisibles? On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, at 18:20:32 EAST, Peter Frederick wrote: [...] >At 09:04 AM 7/7/97 -0500, Austin George Loomis wrote: >>On Sun, 6 Jul 1997, at 10:37:48 EAST, Peter Frederick wrote: >>[...] >>>On the topic of "Secret Human Interferance" I was trying to tinker with a >>>version of "The Inivibles" from the comic of the same name created by Grant >>>Morrison and published by DC. [...] [...] >>(My take on the Invisibles in the IN world, y'see, is that they're the >>Soldiers of Freedom.) >> > >Exactly. One of the things that makes the Invisibles most interesting for >me is that they are already involved in a War of their own, Dark Invisibles >vs Light if you want to put definitions. Ah, the notion that the Invisibles and the Myrmidons are two sides of the same coin (or, being as there as so many of them, the same side of two coins). Makes some sense. (Jim Crow's working for the Loa, but so was Dollimore of Unitol Pharmaceuticals.) >And while in an IN setting it >would seem that the Dark Invisibles are allies (or more likely Lackies) to >Hell I don;t think King Mob, Mr 6 and Co would be any more interested in >assistance from Heaven than they are in Hell. > I don't know about that. They certainly seem to have plenty of help from the denizens of the Marches, who still have power in the spacetime supersphere where Jack Frost hangs out ("I worship a god with an elephant head!" -- Gideon Stargrave), but they've also got the Hidden Stone (a Gnostic "True Christ" Who says "I am not the God of your fathers. I am the Hidden Stone and I break all hearts...") on their side. Then again, that's the Invisibles in that universe. Who knows but what ol' Gideon might stop off in the Symphony on one of his jaunts across the polyverse? >Hmmm, something starting to simmer here, have to get some other stuff >written up to stay ahead of my players then I might give this a hack. Let >you all know. > I await. >Thanking you for your indulgence. > You're quite welcome. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 19:10:16 -0400 From: Tim Seiger Subject: Re: IN> Animal Vessels Andre Ribeiro wrote: > > Peter Frederick wrote: > > > Do Celestials in Canine Vessels have the same lack of colour vision as > > > > normal canines? > > I think the answer is NO - in The Book we read in the box on > page 48: "Vessels in animal shape *look like* normal animals, but they > have been modified so they can talk" (stress mine). So why wouldn't they > be modified so they could see? I think the 'look like' part says > everything: It's not an animal, it's a Celestial in an animal body - > period. You can talk, you can see full colors and you can think with > your full capability - it doesn't matter if your host's brain is as big > as a dolphin's or as null as a flea's. Of course, sometimes you would > feel that irresistible pull for raising your rear leg next to an > electric pole... But that's the way it is...:-) > > Andre I think that this would be different for a Kyrio inhabiting an animal. Since the animal is already existing as a "real" animal. Just my .02. - -Tim - -- - ----------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed above are not necessarily affiliated with Digital in any way. I am an employee, not a spokesperson. - ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 22:23:26 -0400 From: Anca Mosoiu Subject: IN> The Weekly World News? So I was in the supermarket the other day, and picked up a copy of the Weekly World News. Wow, what a plethora of story ideas! Where else can you find out "10 signs that your dentist is posessed by a Demon"? Has anyone thought to use this as a source before? Perhaps it can appear in your IN world as a Grigori news bulletin, or something equally interesting. Cheers, Anca. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 00:36:19 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Animal Vessels > Andre Ribeiro wrote: > > Peter Frederick wrote: > > > Do Celestials in Canine Vessels have the same lack of colour vision as > > > normal canines? > > I think the answer is NO - in The Book we read in the box on > > page 48: "Vessels in animal shape *look like* normal animals, but they > > have been modified so they can talk" (stress mine). So why wouldn't they And Tim Seiger wrote: > I think that this would be different for a Kyrio inhabiting an animal. > Since the animal is already existing as a "real" animal. Shouldn't be, actually...a Kyrio or Shedite inhabited host seems to become a full Vessel for the duration. The only specific note to it is that they also don't need to eat or sleep, but I'd be inclined to apply it across the board.. I DO tend to think the Song of Possession, however, does -NOT- confer the `specials'. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 17:34:14 +1000 (EST) From: Peter Frederick Subject: Re: IN> Animal Vessels Tim Seiger wrote: >Andre Ribeiro wrote: >> >> Peter Frederick wrote: >> >> > Do Celestials in Canine Vessels have the same lack of colour vision as >> > >> > normal canines? >> >> I think the answer is NO - in The Book we read in the box on >> page 48: "Vessels in animal shape *look like* normal animals, but they >> have been modified so they can talk" (stress mine). So why wouldn't they >> be modified so they could see? I think the 'look like' part says >> everything: It's not an animal, it's a Celestial in an animal body - >> period. You can talk, you can see full colors and you can think with >> your full capability - it doesn't matter if your host's brain is as big >> as a dolphin's or as null as a flea's. Of course, sometimes you would >> feel that irresistible pull for raising your rear leg next to an >> electric pole... But that's the way it is...:-) >> >> Andre > >I think that this would be different for a Kyrio inhabiting an animal. >Since the animal is already existing as a "real" animal. > >Just my .02. >-Tim Dear Andre, Tim and List A workable answer, simple and clear, which is all to the good, but definately the dull option. One hurdle to the quick fix is Jordi. That's one Archangel who is going to make you live a Dog's life in your Dog vessel, and so on for what ever other animals you may chose. Given that I think is it a bit odd that Jordi would give you a worse Animal Vessel than any of the other Archangels. The other problem I see comes mainly from the sensory abilities of different creatures and therefore (IMO) vessels. While any Celestial may have a very high Perception, and therefore very acute senses, it seems that they are only acute within normal human ranges (when in a human vessel). Ie no ultra or sub sonic hearing, no tracking by scent and no infra red or ultra violet vision. In a canine vessel a player might ask to be able to track a person by scent, I sure would, and therefore gains access to a sensory ability that they wouldn't have in a human vessel. If their canine vessel can be "adjusted" to get around it's colour vision deficiency, why can't a human one be "adjusted" to fix it's limited olfactory abilities? Or simply to extend it's existing, but variously limited, sensory abilities? If we start to allow that sort of "adjustment" then you should be able to add any sensory, or other natural physical, ability to any vessel. There is a limit to this, but it should still allow "human" vessels that can track like a blood hound, hear like a bat and with a snake's poisonous bite. You could make these into a new variety of Numinous Corpus, which might sort of work, but is a bit kludgy. Of course Animal Vessels have other draw backs. They generally have limited manipulatory abilities, limited range of speech and most people will react to them as animals (which can be a plus as well). I tend to think it is less a physical difference between a dog and an angel in a dog vessel that allows the angel some verbal communication than it is the much greater intelligence and knowledge of verbal communication that the angel has. Interesting to consider an angel of Jordi who had only ever had animal vessels and very little contact with humanity. While they would be able to communicate in the Angelic tounge they might have to knowledge of any human or corporeal forms of verbal, or written, communication. As far as Kyrio's go, I agree, a Kyrio should get whatever the Host has, possibly that would mean even less verbal ability than an other celestials animal vessel, but thems the breaks. Thanking you for your indulgence. Yours Peter. Email to peterf@geko.net.au "Whoso loveth God truely must not expect to be loved by Him in return." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 04:43:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Davidson Subject: Re: IN> The Weekly World News? On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Anca Mosoiu wrote: > So I was in the supermarket the other day, and picked up a copy of the > Weekly World News. Wow, what a plethora of story ideas! Where else can > you find out "10 signs that your dentist is posessed by a Demon"? > > Has anyone thought to use this as a source before? Perhaps it can appear > in your IN world as a Grigori news bulletin, or something equally > interesting. > Well, I don't know about a source for IN, but WWN is a *great* source for Chaosium's Nephilim game (chock full of conspiracies and secret societies). As is most tabloids of that ilk. It's funny, too. One example of WWN's fine journalism is the article that proclaimed "Satan's skull dug up in Arizona!" Kinda puts a new spin on things, doesn't it? (FYI, this "Satan's skull" article wouldn't make sense in an IN campaign, but would make *perfect* sense in a Nephilim campaign)... Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us - -------------------- Don't panic! I have a new .sig! - -------------------- Instruction Booklet for this message: STEP 1: Open mouth. STEP 2: Insert foot. STEP 3: Chew vigorously. STEP 4: Repeat as needed. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:01:01 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Animal Vessels On Jul 10, 7:55pm, Peter Frederick wrote: > Subject: IN> Animal Vessels > Dear List > > Do Celestials in Canine Vessels have the same lack of colour vision as > normal canines? > What other quirks of real animals would or wouldn't be required in Animal > Vessels? If you 'borrow' your vessel (Kyriotates/Shedim/Song of Possession) then you have all the normal limitations of the vessel (have a hard time speaking, lack of color vision, etc). If you have bought a vessel, you are not limited like that. Personality quirks have no affect on the Celestial in either case. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 97 11:48:45 CDT From: Oscar Rodriguez Subject: IN> In Nomine: support materials? Hi. I was just wondering if any concrete dates have been set for the shipping of IN support materials? According to an article in the March/April issue of Pyramid there should have been 3-4 books out by now. Are they holding of until Gen Con? Just Wondering, Oscar ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 12:54:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: IN> Moral Decisions There seems to be an assymetry in the way Angel and Demon games progress above and beyond the fact that one lot of characters work towards good and the other towards evil. Often the angel games are at their most fun when the angels are facing a moral crisis - when they have to decide what is the right thing to do and what the wrong thing to do in a given situation. This problem doesn't seem to crop up with demons. They seem to easily find something truly bad to be getting on with and don't have to strain their brains on moral questions. Is this because of some mistake I am making as G.M.? Is it a natural and innevitable feature of the game? Do games involving demon P.C.s need more internal politics than games involving angel P.C.s to make up for the fact that there aren't moral problems to wrestle with? What do people think? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 12:08:49 -0700 From: "Matthew M. Colville" Subject: Re: IN> The Invisibles? >Ah, the notion that the Invisibles and the Myrmidons are two sides of >the same coin (or, being as there as so many of them, the same side of >two coins). What are you? A comic pornogropher with a rabble of prostitutes? A man talking sense to himself is just as sane as a man not talking sense, not to himself. - ---------------------- --------------------------- Matthew M. Colville. Armed only with wisdom mcolville@earthlink.net The Shintao Monks fight against the darkness... Role-Playing and Fiction http://home.earthlink.net/~mcolville ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 15:50:11 -0400 From: "Trimarco, Robert" Subject: RE: IN> Moral Decisions >>Do games involving demon P.C.s need more internal politics than games involving angel P.C.s to make up for the fact that there aren't moral problems to wrestle with? What do people think?<< I don't think that you have to involve more politics, Demons have a different code that they follow. 99% of the Angels value the code of morality. A demon's code depends on his personal goals and attitude, not so much determined by his nature and his ultimate boss (The Almighty). A GM may have to apply the dilemma to suit specific codes (the ones your Demon PC's hold dear) rather than one all encompassing one like morality. Also keep in mind that the players should not go around believing that they have absolutely no code at all... that's no fun either.. doing anything you want willy nilly will piss off the wrong person eventually. PC's that are doing one thing then all of a sudden switch tracks just because they feel like it and in the process backstab others will teach them to have some personal set of rules for their characters. So I guess the issue is not so much moral dilemmas as code dilemmas. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 16:00:11 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Moral Decisions Gregory Littmann wrote: "There seems to be an assymetry in the way Angel and Demon games progress.... Often the angel games are at their most fun when the angels are facing a moral crisis - when they have to decide what is the right thing to do.... This problem doesn't seem to crop up with demons. Is this because of some mistake I am making as G.M.? Is it a natural and innevitable feature of the game?" I don't think it's a mistake in GMing. I think it may reflect a real difference between good and evil. Notice that the IN book doesn't often describe the demons as working for Evil, but rather for themselves. Each demon has his own *selfish* symphony, the book says. This is the way good and evil really work, on the human plane, and St. Augustine at least argued that it was the way the two things just are. An angel might sacrifice itself for the sake of good. A demon would not "patriotically" sacrifice itself for the sake of evil; a demon would never sacrifice itself to anything. The essence of evil, in this theory at least, is selfishness, so an essentially evil spirit would never be self-sacrificing. If a demon destroyed itself, it would only be to avoid some form of everlasting torture. So a demon's player just has to calculate the PC's own advantage. This is easy compared with figuring out what is best in the general scheme of things. Returning to the practical question, yes, I would recommend a demonic game have more internal politicking than an angelic one. It makes that calculation of advantave, mentioned above, harder. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 97 15:53:23 CDT From: Oscar Subject: Re: IN> Moral Decisions Gregory asked: > Is this because of some mistake I am making as G.M.? Is it a natural >and innevitable feature of the game? Do games involving demon P.C.s need >more internal politics than games involving angel P.C.s to make up for the >fact that there aren't moral problems to wrestle with? What do people >think? I don't think it's a "feature" of the game as much as it is a "feature" of your players. It's really a role playing issue. I talked this over with my players and we decided to go the angel route. It's just easier until there is more source material to play with. I'll be doing one-shot demon adventures for spice. But for now, with demons I see lots of inter-party conflict (which given the proper mix of players could be great) and conflict with Demon Princes. As I sit here and think about it, maybe what you need to do is focus on resonance and dissonance. There are dilemmas for demons. Impudites have their love of humans. Balseraphs are liars, what happens when they need to tell the truth? Do they tell it or do they let things happen? If players focus on their nature they really should create situations for themselves that they have to struggle with to get out of. Angel P.C.'s still have the moral dilemmas on top of this though. Good issue. Any more ideas? Just some thooughts, Oscar ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #243 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.