From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Jul 14 02:56:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA13606 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 02:56:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA29748 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 01:21:40 -0500 Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 01:21:40 -0500 Message-Id: <199707140621.BAA29748@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #245 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, July 14 1997 Volume 01 : Number 245 In this digest: Re: IN> The Weekly World News? Re: IN> Moral Decisions Re: IN> The Weekly World News? Re: IN> Moral Decisions IN> NWO and IN IN> Resourses IN> Resourses IN> Items and Age Re: IN> Moral Decisions Re: IN> Moral Decisions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 22:37:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Kinney Subject: Re: IN> The Weekly World News? > > So I was in the supermarket the other day, and picked up a copy of the > > Weekly World News. Wow, what a plethora of story ideas! Where else can > > you find out "10 signs that your dentist is posessed by a Demon"? > > > > Has anyone thought to use this as a source before? Perhaps it can appear > > in your IN world as a Grigori news bulletin, or something equally > > interesting. > There's all sorts of neat things you can find in the tabloids, although ones like the WWN and the (I think) Sun are the best; if Kathie Lee Gifford is on the cover, it's not what you're looking for. :-) The WWN, for another example, had been tracking the Horsemen of the Apocalypse (and wouldn't that be something to put into IN stats -- if no one's done it yet, I have dibs :-), and has announce the Hubble telescope's finding of Heaven. *** From the Desktop of Mark Allen Kinney mailto:alberich@iglou.com | http://www.iglou.com/nations "Whoever said H.R. Giger's work wasn't art because it didn't depict nature obviously has never cut open a cantaloupe." -- Me ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 00:45:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Davidson Subject: Re: IN> Moral Decisions On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > > Look at Dominic, Gabriel, Laurence, Yves, and Eli for example. > > Dominic tried Dominic for heresy, and was "balked" by Yves. Laurence > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Thats some heavy *angelic* angst, if you ask me. > Errr... make that "Dominic tried *Gabriel* for heresy"...... One of the problems of editing material on the fly at 3AM..... Never before has my .sig been more true, neh? :-) Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us - -------------------- Don't panic! I have a new .sig! - -------------------- Instruction Booklet for this message: STEP 1: Open mouth. STEP 2: Insert foot. STEP 3: Chew vigorously. STEP 4: Repeat as needed. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 01:07:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Davidson Subject: Re: IN> The Weekly World News? On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > > It's funny, too. One example of WWN's fine journalism is the article that > > proclaimed "Satan's skull dug up in Arizona!" Kinda puts a new spin on > > things, doesn't it? > > > > (FYI, this "Satan's skull" article wouldn't make sense in an IN > > campaign, but would make *perfect* sense in a Nephilim campaign)... > > It would work - one of the last times Satan was on earth, in the > collossal battle with Micheal, his Vessel was killed, while still > exhibiting several Numious Corpus. Micheal, in true form, severed > Satan's head and mounted it apon a pole to impress Angels and scare > Demons. The pole has long since disintegrated, but the skull, full > of the latent power of Satan and of Micheal, survived. > Hee, hee. :-) I like this idea. It's evil, but I like it. :-) > See - it can be done. If you do it to often (with tabloids), you are > going to end up with a weird game, but that may be your goal in the > first place... > I would like to think that in a rpg such as IN, some people are going to notice some weird things happening, don't you? These people would first try to go to the traditional avenues--the respected papers, such as the Times (London or NY, take your pick), or the Washington Post. After being laughed out of the newsroom, they would then decide that the only course of action left would be to go to the tabloids: the Enquirer, the WWN, et al. In my campaign (like "MIB"), you get more truth from the tabloids then you do from the traditional papers... Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us - -------------------- Don't panic! I have a new .sig! - -------------------- Instruction Booklet for this message: STEP 1: Open mouth. STEP 2: Insert foot. STEP 3: Chew vigorously. STEP 4: Repeat as needed. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 14:14:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> Moral Decisions > > Oh, I don't know. I think that the demons have there own questions to > deal with. Think about it: these creatures were once *angels* who > rebelled against *God* their Creator and Boss. Since God is omnipotent, > this would mean that demons must have a *lot* of serious doubts about the > consequences of their actions. And since they were once angels, they must > sincerely wonder whether or not they chose the right Side. > > Hmmmm.... Demon-angst. I love it already. :-) Oh, I think Demon-angst rocks and that people who don't even consider it for their games aren't taking Demons seriously as people (and thus preventing them from being interesting characters - all MHO of course). But angst alone won't influence their actions unless they decide to defect, whereas an Angel's moral choices *will* influence their actions. Also, Angels can (and should) discuss morality with each other, whereas its going to be hard for Demons to discuss concerns about picking the wrong side with each other. That's a good way to get a visit from Asmodeus and friends. > > And don't forget: the politics are there in the angelic ranks, as > well. Very true. Angelic politics are one of the most fun things about In Nomine, IMHO. But I don't seem to *need* to rely on them as heavily to make a game interesting. Without lots of Demonic politics, on the other hand, a Demon based game starts to look like black AD&D - when *I* run it anyway. > Look at Dominic, Gabriel, Laurence, Yves, and Eli for example. > Dominic tried Dominic for heresy, :) He's tough, but he doesn't play favorites. > and was "balked" by Yves. Laurence > supports Dominic, and so received some of that balking from Yves. Dominic > is constantly riding on Eli's tail, trying to prove *something* bad about > him.... the list goes on.... and you say that angels don't get involved in > politics. Oh no! I didn't mean to imply that! I was just saying that I don't *need* to involve Angelic politics in a mission as heavily to make it interesting. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 12:11:45 -0700 From: zingaro@peak.org Subject: IN> NWO and IN Am I the last person to notice the plug for In Nomine on the New World Order _Moral Minority_ card? - ------- zingaro@peak.org Consternation! Uproar! Dim of the Yard! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 21:44:25 -0100 From: Henry Leirvoll Subject: IN> Resourses Being new to this, and sitting and reading through the rulebook right now, I can't help but thinking that I have either missed something, or found a mistake..? RESOURCES I can't find the general Cost of a Resource. It is spoken about again and again, but I can't find it. - A certain type of resource, celestial - for example, cost three times as much as the artifact's Resource cost. But Where .. can I read about pricing Resources? - -- 0000,0000,ffffH. Leirvoll / kulde@intercom.no ICQ - UIN : 1255494 ffff,0000,0000- ^Heksheim / Black Metal^ - http://www.intercom.no/~kulde ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 19:35:54 -0100 From: Henry Leirvoll Subject: IN> Resourses Being new to this, and sitting and reading through the rulebook right now, I can't help but thinking that I have either missed something, or found a mistake..? RESOURCES I can't find the general Cost of a Resource. It is spoken about again and again, but I can't find it. - A certain type of resource, celestial - for example, cost three times as much as the artifact's Resource cost. But Where .. can I read about pricing Resources? - -- 0000,0000,ffffH. Leirvoll / kulde@intercom.no ICQ - UIN : 1255494 ffff,0000,0000- ^Heksheim / Black Metal^ - http://www.intercom.no/~kulde ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 13:43:12 -0700 From: "Matthew M. Colville" Subject: IN> Items and Age Ok, my players are rolling up characters and I have a few questions. I'm sure the book answers them somewhere, and I am reading through it, but I'm impatient. First off, one of my players wants to create an artifact with two songs in it. Is this possible? He's a Kyrio who runs an arcade. He wants a pinball he can toss on the ground and have it follow someone around. He put the Corporeal Song of Motion into it and the Corporeal Song of Something Else (attraction, or something like that, the book's in my bedroom.) Is this legal? Nowhere in the book do I find mention of an artifact with more than one Song. Neither do I find any rule specifically prohibiting multiple Songs in an artifact. Also, he's bought a Role, does that mean he needs to buy a Vessel so he can be his role? Lastly, how old are Celestials? I know that many theologians believe that all Angels were created when God created Angels, and there are never any new ones. Is this tue of PCs? Also, In Nomine seems to take a pretty Augustinian approach to Will and Intellect. Am I to presume the other Augistinian theologies are at work too? What if I think that Aquinas was right, and the Intellect comes before the Will? Will there be supplaments for other Celestial models? - ---------------------- --------------------------- Matthew M. Colville. Armed only with wisdom mcolville@earthlink.net The Shintao Monks fight against the darkness... Role-Playing and Fiction http://home.earthlink.net/~mcolville ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 16:52:50, -0500 From: ErinTheBlack@prodigy.com (MR JOSEPH B CONNOLLY) Subject: Re: IN> Moral Decisions - - Is this because of some mistake I am making as G.M.? Is it a natural - -and innevitable feature of the game? Do games involving demon P.C.s need - -more internal politics than games involving angel P.C.s to make up for the - -fact that there aren't moral problems to wrestle with? What do people - -think? In the game I run the characters are all demons. The players all seem to handle this differently. One of the players is a Calabite of Belial, and he sleeps well wrestling with no moral questions whatsoever. He seems interested in destroying things, period, end of sentence. Despite the character being quite one dimensional, the player makes him at least somewhat interesting. One of the others is an Impudite of Saminga, and he wants people to look forward to death. He tries to make it seem attractive to them, comforting, so they die seeing it as a release from their pain. He's faced of course with the knowledge that he's sending these people to Hell, but he gets close enough to them that he sometimes enjoys their company and gets attached to them. Some moral questions come up here, not perhaps in the forefront of the campaign like they might in an angels game, but they're there in the background. The other character is a Balseraph of Kobal, and he seems fixated on sowing chaos. This wasn't really part of the character's concept, but it's the way the player runs the character. A good quote for the character is "If everyone else is blinded by illusions and lies, it makes me more likely to stumble upon the truth." Not much morality to the character, but it's ironic that he's deluding himself as much as everyone else, just in a way that's more subtle. I think it's certainly possible to make demon characters that struggle with moral issues. In Nomine is a game whose setting lends itself to that sort of role playing, but it depends more upon the players and the GM than anything else. I've seen In Nomine played much in the same style as AD&D too, and those people seemed to enjoy it. --Joe ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 23:15:51 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Moral Decisions > But angst alone won't influence their actions unless they decide to > defect, whereas an Angel's moral choices *will* influence their actions. > Also, Angels can (and should) discuss morality with each other, whereas I'm not sure I agree with that at all...certainly, there ARE demons who are in it for no particular reason, or for distinctly immoral purpose...but personally, I'm convinced that many of the demons firmly believe they're on the -RIGHT- side. Haballah, obviously, continue to have moral issues in the sense of having a moral purpose...many Balseraph could just as easily, and, frankly, so can ANY of the Bands, at least potentially. Fallen Angels, as opposed to those who worked their way up from Imps/Gremlins and have never been divine, may be a little more prone to moral quandary - eg. not being SURE they're on the right side, but then, they should be more prone to that than Angels... In any case, moral decisions go both ways - immorality will influence actions just as much as morality. (I also feel compelled to point out here that, by human standards, many angels are really NOT highly moral...consider the Cherub in the intro story, casually tying his subject up to make sure she doesn't get hurt. Sure, great...now, granted, it's suggested that she's kind of into that, but it's certainly not clear that he wouldn't be doing it anyway. For a further note, consider Nicole having her new servant kill a guy. Now, the killing may be somewhat justified...but forcing some hapless human, on their birthday, to do it, against their conscience, because you want the blood and don't want the noise? This is NOT my idea of morality, and it hardly seems to bother our little angel at all. So, so much for the inevitability of angelic angst.) > its going to be hard for Demons to discuss concerns about picking the > wrong side with each other. That's a good way to get a visit from > Asmodeus and friends. Remember Dominic? Serving some people, it may not be too big a problem...if you serve Gabriel or Eli, on the other hand, you're already under heightened scrutiny of the Inquisition, while if you follow Dominic or Laurence your Superior is already holding you to stricter standards. Earthbound duty seems to be considered somewhat risky in any case...Angels discussing morality in the abstract may be fine, as should be Demons, on the whole. Angels wondering if maybe the other side has a point are putting themselves, on average, in at least as much risk as any Demon. (Moreso, if they happen to be Malakim, or there's one around..) > Nomine, IMHO. But I don't seem to *need* to rely on them as heavily to > make a game interesting. Without lots of Demonic politics, on the other > hand, a Demon based game starts to look like black AD&D - when *I* run > it anyway. I wouldn't call it a `failing' as a GM, because no GM can explore every possible facet of a game...but I'd say you're missing out on some possibilities. For one, from a demonic standpoint, foiling angelic plots (and yes, there certainly ought to be angelic plots - there's no reason the "good guys" have to be eternally reactive) can be just as exciting as foiling demonic plots is for angels... ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #245 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. 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