From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Jul 15 18:05:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA02347 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 18:05:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA23916 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:18:43 -0500 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:18:43 -0500 Message-Id: <199707151818.NAA23916@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #246 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, July 15 1997 Volume 01 : Number 246 In this digest: Re: IN> Items and Age Re: IN> Items and Age Re: IN> Resourses Re: IN> In Nomine font IN> GM's Screen Re: IN> In Nomine: support materials? Re: IN> The Weekly World News? Re: IN> NWO and IN Re: IN> Moral Decisions Re: IN> The Weekly World News? Re: IN> In Nomine font Re: IN> Hello! IN> Mailing list to infernalist@hotmail.com IN> New FAQ Re: IN> Moral Decisions Re: IN> Moral Decisions Re: IN> Hello! Re: IN> Moral Decisions Re: IN> Items and Age Re: IN> Hello! IN> Age of Celestials (was Items and Age) Re: IN> Hello! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:30:38 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Items and Age > >Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 13:43:12 -0700 >From: "Matthew M. Colville" > [Nip] > First off, one of my players wants to create an artifact with two >songs in it. Is this possible? He's a Kyrio who runs an arcade. He >wants a pinball he can toss on the ground and have it follow someone >around. He put the Corporeal Song of Motion into it and the Corporeal >Song of Something Else (attraction, or something like that, the book's >in my bedroom.) Is this legal? Nowhere in the book do I find mention >of an artifact with more than one Song. Neither do I find any rule >specifically prohibiting multiple Songs in an artifact. > I'm pretty sure you can have as many Songs as you want in an Artifact, so long as you have enough points to buy it. Just makes it a little more nasty when someone else gets their hands on it. > > Also, he's bought a Role, does that mean he needs to buy a Vessel so >he can be his role? Well, if he's one of those Kyriotates who can buy a Vessel (Laurence, Michael or David) yes, he should probably buy one. If it's human, it will tie up 5 of his Forces that he can't use to Posess others, if I recall correctly. If he's not, his choice of Roles is severely limited to coccupations that require contact with very, very few humans, mostly ones who know his nature. A Role/1 at the very most, maybe things like Freelance Programmer, Telemarketer, Envelope Stuffer, Pyramid Scheme generator . Personally running a video arcade probably wouldn't work. Otherwise you'd get things like this: Sam: "Hey Jeff." Jeff: "Yo, Sam..Something's different about you." Sam: "Uh...what makes you say that?" Jeff: "Hey, Jane, come over here. Doesn't Sam look different to you?" Jane: "Yah, I guess he does. Wasn't he three inches taller last week?" Jeff: "I think so. Also, I don't recall him being an Oriental woman." Jane: "Sam, Is there something you want to tell us?" A Kyriotate of Creation might also be able to pull it off, using the Celestial Song of Form attunement they have...but if he uses it constantly, the disturbance he'll make when he lets the song's effects dissipate will probably be heard by every Celestial on Earth. > > > Lastly, how old are Celestials? I know that many theologians believe >that all Angels were created when God created Angels, and there are >never any new ones. Is this tue of PCs? > Well, the In Nomine ruelbook does say that most angels were created by their Superiors, so no, I don't believe it's necessary for the Angels your players create to be as old as all that. I get the impression that a Superior can just sit down and shape an Angel/Demon if he's not to busy, anytime he wants. There was also a discussion on this list some time ago about non-Superiors creating angels. I think the consensus was that for the average celestial to reproduce, they have to sacrifice their own Forces to do so, which makes it pretty rare. I'd image most Angels who want to make Offspring in that manner make Relievers instead of full-fledged Angels. Demons seem significantly less likely to reproduce in this manner. = http://www.io.com/~beholder ===================== nofori@pop3.utoled.edu === Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Monty, Lilim Captain of Media, the Demon of Game Shows. ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 97 11:52 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Items and Age > First off, one of my players wants to create an artifact with two >songs in it. Is this possible? I'd certainly allow it in my game. Since a relic can also be a reliquary, there's precedent for multi-function artifacts, though not specifically for multiple Songs. In general, I'm likely to play fast-and-loose with relics in my game -- the most interesting ones are likely to be things that don't correspond exactly with the Songs listed in the basic book. If a player comes up with a neat (and not unbalancing) relic, I'd be inclined to allow it, even if it didn't fit well into the existing Songs. Note that the example relics aren't all shoehorned into the Song structure (e.g., Body Bag). > He's a Kyrio who runs an arcade. He >wants a pinball he can toss on the ground and have it follow someone >around. Cute concept, if a little noticeable -- a steel ball rolling along the ground is going to make a fair amount of physical noise.... > Also, he's bought a Role, does that mean he needs to buy a Vessel so >he can be his role? As far as I know, there's no canon way for a Kyrio to have a Role, except for the cases where a specific Choir attunement allows them to have a human vessel (I think that's only Laurence, at the moment). In general, Kyrios can't have a Vessel at all. Generally a Role is always tied to a specific Vessel. If you have multiple Vessels, they usually won't be able to fit into the same Role (I suppose you could have a clone-type Vessel, though that's usually going to be of limited utility). You can get a somewhat similar effect to a Role if the Kyrio takes a Servant -- the Kyrio can "ride" the Servant when it wants to, and the Servant, being a human, is automatically part of the Symphony, essentially equivalent to a Role/6. (The only major different is the issue of a Role masking "noise" -- I think I'd allow that effect in this case.) I would suggest the Servant alternative to the player, rather than try to figure out how to kludge Roles into working for a Kyrio. Hmmmm... I suppose there is *one* way I'd allow a Kyrio to take a Role - -- they could be a recluse, who only does things by mail (or the net), and never meets anyone face-to-face. This is a bit tricky to manage, but do-able, especially for a Kyrio, who can acquire "agents" by temporarily possessing people. > Lastly, how old are Celestials? I know that many theologians believe >that all Angels were created when God created Angels, and there are >never any new ones. Is this tue of PCs? I believe the canon answer is that most PCs are of relatively recent origin (note that a couple obscure passages in the book refer to Superiors creating new servitors). Some celestials, including, I would suspect, most of the Archangels and some of the Demon Princes, date back to the Beginning. But very old celestials are likely to be much more powerful than PCs, in general. That said, remember that In Nomine is intended to be a rather loose system -- if a player comes up with a good reason for a 9-Force PC to have been around since near the Beginning, then let them go with it. The book itself certainly suggests that PCs might have friends on the other side from before the Fall, so clearly that's envisioned as a possibility. I'm still not clear on the IN timeline, though, as far as the early history of humanity (i.e., did humans first appear millions of years ago? or merely 5000 or so?), and how those events fit around the Fall, the Lilith story (which it seems predates the Fall), Uriel, etc. I hope one of the upcoming supplements is going to address this somewhat. I suspect that some things will be left as open issues for the GM to decide for their own campaign -- the role of Christ, for one, seems to be going to be left undetailed, from comments SJG people have made here. Note that this is one pitfall in allowing older PC celestials -- if they were around at the time of Christ, they may likely *know* some of the details. If you allow this, you're going to have to come up with answers up front. With younger celestials, they won't know from personal experience, and may not even have access to accurate historical information on some of the touchier subjects. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 14:10:53 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Resourses > Being new to this, and sitting and reading through the rulebook right now, I can't help but thinking that I have either missed something, or found a mistake..? > > > RESOURCES > > > I can't find the general Cost of a Resource. > > > It is spoken about again and again, but I can't find it. - A certain type of resource, celestial - for example, cost three times as much as the artifact's Resource cost. > > > But Where .. can I read about pricing Resources? The default cost for resources is 1 per level, but enough of them cost a different amount that that rule of thumb is somewhat useless. The passage for Relics is found on p. 70 and states that the cost is 3 times its _LEVEL_ (emphasis mine). - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 14:04:21 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine font On Jul 11, 8:53pm, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > Subject: IN> In Nomine font > Is there any chance of getting the In Nomine font (legally) for > personal use? Yes. But you have to pay for it. ;) >From the FAQ: What is the name of that cool headline typeface? Is it public domain? Where did you get it? SKREETCH CAPS. It is not public domain and was created by the [T-26] type foundry in Chicago. SJG bought it through Precision Type Inc., of Commack, NY. As far as we know Precision Type doesn't have a webpage, but their phone number is 1-800-248-3668 if you want to order something from them. As of April 10, it costs $49 from them. (BTW, a new version of the FAQ should be up in a week or so...) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 14:14:47 -0400 From: Highway Star Subject: IN> GM's Screen I just bought it today...the owner of my local game store insisted that I had to personally order it, as he wouldn't just buy it and put it on the shelf. I hate ordering anything - though I might have the money today, I might not tomorrow, depending on if I let my brother drive my car (grin), but I did anyway. Just like I expected. Another excellent and diabolical product from SJGames. Kudos. So, does Night Music ship today?:):) Now to convert "A Feast of Blades" to Richmond airport, and bring my mixed group in...:):) SeanMike - ---- Sean Michael Whipkey, smw4s@virginia.edu Weldon Cooper Center for Public Service, Publications Div. 804/924-4185 (or -4188) voicenet, 804/982-5536 fax http://www.virginia.edu/~cpserv/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 13:56:50 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine: support materials? On Jul 11, 11:48am, Oscar Rodriguez wrote: > Subject: IN> In Nomine: support materials? > Hi. > > I was just wondering if any concrete dates have been set for the > shipping of IN support materials? According to an article in the > March/April issue of Pyramid there should have been 3-4 books > out by now. Keep in mind that the magazine is organized/written several months before it is printed. Those dates were tentative then, but recent info updates that. Night Music is being shipped now (along with the GM screen) and 'The Marches' will _hopefully_ be ready for GenCon. Things look good but of course Sometimes Things Happen. > > Are they holding of until Gen Con? As far as I know the official policy is to 'get it into their hot, sweaty hands as soon as possible'. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 14:06:38 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> The Weekly World News? On Jul 12, 6:30pm, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> The Weekly World News? > > It's funny, too. One example of WWN's fine journalism is the article that > > proclaimed "Satan's skull dug up in Arizona!" Kinda puts a new spin on > > things, doesn't it? > > > > (FYI, this "Satan's skull" article wouldn't make sense in an IN > > campaign, but would make *perfect* sense in a Nephilim campaign)... > > It would work - one of the last times Satan was on earth, in the > collossal battle with Micheal, his Vessel was killed, while still > exhibiting several Numious Corpus. Micheal, in true form, severed > Satan's head and mounted it apon a pole to impress Angels and scare > Demons. The pole has long since disintegrated, but the skull, full > of the latent power of Satan and of Micheal, survived. > > See - it can be done. If you do it to often (with tabloids), you are > going to end up with a weird game, but that may be your goal in the > first place... heh. It doesn't even have to be _satan's_ skull. How is some mortal shmuck supposed to tell the difference between the Great One's skull and John Q. Demon? ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 14:49:01 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> NWO and IN At 12:11 PM -0700 7/13/97, zingaro@peak.org wrote: >Am I the last person to notice the plug for In Nomine on the New World Order >_Moral Minority_ card? Yep. But then, I've been waiting with baited (chocolate) breath for In Nomine since it was announced. *sigh* (If I'd known I'd love it so much, I would have been on the playtest list. Ah, well.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 14:01:09 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Moral Decisions On Jul 11, 12:54pm, Gregory Littmann wrote: > Subject: IN> Moral Decisions > > > > There seems to be an assymetry in the way Angel and Demon games progress > above and beyond the fact that one lot of characters work towards good and > the other towards evil. Often the angel games are at their most fun when > the angels are facing a moral crisis - when they have to decide what is > the right thing to do and what the wrong thing to do in a given situation. > This problem doesn't seem to crop up with demons. They seem to easily > find something truly bad to be getting on with and don't have to strain > their brains on moral questions. > > Is this because of some mistake I am making as G.M.? Is it a natural > and innevitable feature of the game? Do games involving demon P.C.s need > more internal politics than games involving angel P.C.s to make up for the > fact that there aren't moral problems to wrestle with? What do people > think? It _can_ come up, though less often with demons. Demons have a more tactical problem to deal with in that their 'allies' might not have the same personal goals that they do. Their Superior almost certainly has different ultimate goals that the other character's superiors (or from the PC himself!). Also, the demons serve the cause of evil, but some of them do it because, as they see it, it's the only game in town. Some might be Fallen angels who have their own regrets. Others might have been born in Hell, but are not devoutly dedicated to it. Interview (privately!) the players about their characters. Ask them if there ever was an evil they partipated in that they regretted or felt guilty about later. How about some part of the Corporeal Plane they really enjoy and would hate to see destroyed? - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 21:42:27 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> The Weekly World News? > heh. It doesn't even have to be _satan's_ skull. How is > some mortal shmuck supposed to tell the difference between the > Great One's skull and John Q. Demon? ;) Well, yeah - I was simply looking at it literally. Plus, just think - - maybe Satan wants it back. What Prince (or uppity Demon) wouldn't want the chance to retrieve it for Him? Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten. -George Carlin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 21:42:27 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine font > > Is there any chance of getting the In Nomine font (legally) for > > personal use? > > Yes. But you have to pay for it. ;) I was afraid you would say that. > >From the FAQ: > What is the name of that cool headline typeface? Is it public > domain? Where did you get it? > > SKREETCH CAPS. It is not public domain and was created by the > [T-26] type foundry in Chicago. SJG bought it through > Precision Type Inc., of Commack, NY. As far as we know > Precision Type doesn't have a webpage, but their phone number > is 1-800-248-3668 if you want to order something from them. > As of April 10, it costs $49 from them. Do you know what that $49 entails - nonprofessional use, professional use, inclusion in free/commercial images? Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten. -George Carlin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 21:42:27 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Hello! > I am both new to this mailing list and In Nomine both. I bought the > sourcebook (the angelic edition) and am about to start a PBEM game in > which 3 players are Angels, 3 are Demons, two are Word Bound Angels for > whom the 3 normal angels work and 2 players are Word Bound Demons for > whom the three normal demons work. I will be pitting them against each > other. The idea being that the Word Bound Celestials will be getting > thier 'missions' from their Archangels/Demon Princes, will then use the > other players as pawns. Ideally, the missions will be at > cross-purposes and the players will end up in opposition. Of course, > each group will receive its own version of what's happening, etc. . . I would warn you that PBEM games are hard to do - the turnaround time on an average move is about a week, and coordination is a bitch. Because of the turnaround, combat is going to really suck... > I'm setting the campaign in my Champions campaign, which has recently > melded with White Wolf's World of Darkness. So while the players will > mostly being warring over the mental, physical, and spiritual > well-being of normal humans, they will be doing so in a world with > super-powered humans, vampires, werewolves, mummies, faerie folk, and > mages (from Ars Magica, not Mage: The Ascention. I think M:TA is just > a silly idea.) Well, M:TA is an interesting idea, but I would have trouble playing it. It smacks too much of Calvinball - everybody makes the rules, and it ends in a huge arguement. > I bring this up both by way of an introduction, and to give you an > idea of if/how different my campaign is from others. I have > no idea what you guys are doing with IN, but I'm > really interested in finding out. Actually, I was looking at doing something similar to what you are doing. I am tearing up a lot of the WoD, though - werecreatures are being changed (it didn't make sense that the various types of weres were so dissimilar), and the vampires are going to be similarly deconstructed. Email me in private - maybe we can help each other. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten. -George Carlin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 00:39:33 -0200 From: Carlos Fagundes Subject: IN> Mailing list to infernalist@hotmail.com Hi I would like to be in the mailing list too. But in the e-mail infernalist@hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 04:00:43 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: IN> New FAQ On Mon, 14 Jul 1997 14:04:21 -0400, "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" wrote: >(BTW, a new version of the FAQ should be up in a week or >so...) Cool! How about adding a definition of Will Roll? It's in the book, but very hard to find: on page 56 under Resonance Mechanics, Opposing resonance, "Like a normal Contest, the check digit of the subject's successful Will roll must be higher than the demon's check digit." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 23:48:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> Moral Decisions On Sun, 13 Jul 1997, Kingsley Lintz wrote: > > But angst alone won't influence their actions unless they decide to > > defect, whereas an Angel's moral choices *will* influence their actions. > > Also, Angels can (and should) discuss morality with each other, whereas > I'm not sure I agree with that at all...certainly, there ARE > demons who are in it for no particular reason, or for distinctly immoral > purpose...but personally, I'm convinced that many of the demons firmly > believe they're on the -RIGHT- side. Haballah, obviously, continue to > have moral issues in the sense of having a moral purpose... Very true. Habbalah can easily face moral dilemmas. >many Balseraph > could just as easily, and, frankly, so can ANY of the Bands, at least > potentially. They may have moral commitments, but most of them don't naturally face very many moral crises. Its a lot easier to do wrong than to do right, at least most of the time. Finding a wicked course of action tends to be a snap. > Fallen Angels, as opposed to those who worked their way up from > Imps/Gremlins and have never been divine, may be a little more prone to > moral quandary - eg. not being SURE they're on the right side, but then, > they should be more prone to that than Angels... Not being sure that you are on the right side is one thing, but as long as they are set on doing evil, it usually isn't hard to work out an evil course of action to take. Working out a good course of action, on the other hand, is often precarious. Its easy to do evil while trying to do good, but damned hard to do good while trying to do evil. > In any case, moral decisions go both ways - immorality will > influence actions just as much as morality. (I also feel compelled to > point out here that, by human standards, many angels are really NOT highly > moral... I don't think that they should have to be, but I *do* think that an angel ought to be *very* concerned with doing what is right. That is to say, they might get morality wrong, but they should be fanatically trying to be moral all the same. [Snip] > This is NOT my idea of morality, Nor mine, but as long as they are trying to follow *their* view of morality, that's O.K.. Its only an Angel who knowing does something they believe to be wrong, or who just doesn't *care* about good and evil that doesn't ring true. > and it hardly seems to bother our > little angel at all. So, so much for the inevitability of angelic angst.) I don't think its inevitable, but I do tend to think that any angel who never feels angst probably isn't thinking very deeply. > > > its going to be hard for Demons to discuss concerns about picking the > > wrong side with each other. That's a good way to get a visit from > > Asmodeus and friends. > Remember Dominic? Serving some people, it may not be too big a > problem...if you serve Gabriel or Eli, on the other hand, you're already > under heightened scrutiny of the Inquisition, while if you follow Dominic > or Laurence your Superior is already holding you to stricter standards. > Earthbound duty seems to be considered somewhat risky in any case...Angels > discussing morality in the abstract may be fine, as should be Demons, on > the whole. Angels wondering if maybe the other side has a point are > putting themselves, on average, in at least as much risk as any Demon. > (Moreso, if they happen to be Malakim, or there's one around..) I agree with this entirely, which makes me think I didn't make myself clear. When I said that demons don't easily face the sort of moral issues angels often face, someone commented that demons can wonder whether they picked the right side. I agreed with that, but pointed out that there is a limit to how much this can influence roleplaying unless they try to defect, just because no-one, angel or demon, can openly doubt whether they picked the right side. > > > Nomine, IMHO. But I don't seem to *need* to rely on them as heavily to > > make a game interesting. Without lots of Demonic politics, on the other > > hand, a Demon based game starts to look like black AD&D - when *I* run > > it anyway. > I wouldn't call it a `failing' as a GM, because no GM can explore > every possible facet of a game...but I'd say you're missing out on some > possibilities. For one, from a demonic standpoint, foiling angelic plots > (and yes, there certainly ought to be angelic plots - there's no reason > the "good guys" have to be eternally reactive) can be just as exciting as > foiling demonic plots is for angels... > Agreed. But you can foil the plot of the evil wizard in AD&D as well. I always had Angelic plots, but I failed to achieve any depth to my demonic games without playing up infernal politics more heavily than I *needed* to to run an angelic game with depth. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 23:54:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> Moral Decisions > > > > > > > How about some part of the Corporeal > Plane they really enjoy and would hate to see destroyed? > Now *that* is interesting! Not so much a conflict between good and evil but between evil and some other attachment. Like an art-loving demon who doesn't give a damn about humanity but can't stand to see masterworks destroyed. Now *there* is a source for soul-searching decisions something akin to the moral decisions an angel might face. I *really* like this idea... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 22:55:27 -0700 (PDT) From: nightgaunt@earthlink.net (Alexander Shearer) Subject: Re: IN> Hello! >Well, M:TA is an interesting idea, but I would have trouble playing >it. It smacks too much of Calvinball - everybody makes the rules, >and it ends in a huge arguement. It really doesn't play out like that at all. The characters may have extremely divergent views of how reality does/should work, and how to work their will on it...but the rules all work the same way (actually, they're really a bit too restricted/directed in some ways). I've never been in a Mage game which even approached Calvinball. > >Actually, I was looking at doing something similar to what you are >doing. I am tearing up a lot of the WoD, though - werecreatures are >being changed (it didn't make sense that the various types of weres >were so dissimilar), and the vampires are going to be similarly >deconstructed. Email me in private - maybe we can help each other. Hmmm. Also, try searching on the web for the old Angel/Demon supplements (a number of people have done that theme) for the WoD. I'm sure you can find one or more versions at http://php.ucs.indiana.edu/~adashiel/wod/ (That's B.J.Zanzibar's World of Darkness Archive - it's very good). Alexander Shearer nightgaunt@earthlink.net gaunt@uclink4.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 23:14:21 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Moral Decisions > > the other towards evil. Often the angel games are at their most fun when > > the angels are facing a moral crisis - when they have to decide what is > > the right thing to do and what the wrong thing to do in a given situation. > > This problem doesn't seem to crop up with demons. They seem to easily > Also, the demons serve the cause of evil, but some of them ... > them if there ever was an evil they partipated in that they regretted > or felt guilty about later. How about some part of the Corporeal > Plane they really enjoy and would hate to see destroyed? Heck, for that matter, `serving the cause of evil' (or good, for that matter) isn't all THAT straight forward...you've got the Calabim of Saminga who just wants to rip people apart in conflict with the Impudite of Kronos who finds that doubly wasteful when you can corrupt them to the cause...just for an easy one. These frictions can easily elevate from political to moral; it's FAR too easy to say, "Impudites don't kill people because it's Dissonant." Bleah. Some Impudites don't kill people simply because, hey, if I kill you today, I can't steal your Essence tomorrow. Others, however, may not kill people because they actually like 'em, and consider wanton slaughter to be not just a waste of resources, but actually wrong. (Like the difference between wanting to preserve the rainforests simply because you'd personally like to have some oxygen once in a while, or because it's just Not Something We Have The Right To Do.) Honestly, while Asmodeus is a good argument against going around talking about it, I can see a lot of Demons still having quite a bit of respect for God's work... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 23:25:22 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Items and Age > Hmmmm... I suppose there is *one* way I'd allow a Kyrio to take a Role > -- they could be a recluse, who only does things by mail (or the net), > and never meets anyone face-to-face. This is a bit tricky to manage, Oh, dear...the Unabomber was a Kyrio? Though, on a weird thought, there's the idea that a Kyriotate could have a particular Role which would then give them some advantages towards posessing people who fit it...(eg. a Kyrio with Doctor/5 would have an easier time, er, playing doctor...still not quite getting the actual doctor's memories, but having a much easier time fitting into his life..) > I believe the canon answer is that most PCs are of relatively recent > origin (note that a couple obscure passages in the book refer to > Superiors creating new servitors). Some celestials, including, I would And Relievers building up to Angels...though the impression I got from the rules was that PC's are strongly encouraged to be very new to Earth duty, but may be as old as they want on the Celestial side... > Note that this is one pitfall in allowing older PC celestials -- if they > were around at the time of Christ, they may likely *know* some of the > details. If you allow this, you're going to have to come up with Well, there's some impression that even the Archangels don't actually KNOW, so I don't see where the PCs would... (Well, really...George Bu..I mean, Yves, had to have been young sometime, right? Maybe it was him...) Otherwise, of course, you'll still only HAVE to come up with answers if it's ever going to matter... (Of course, now I'm picturing this harrowing adventure with Celestials from both sides seeking after some mega artifact culminating in a gameshow...Nybbas there turning the letters, of course, and Yves reading the answers. "Brown." "What color were Jesus's eyes?" "Wrong...the correct question was, `What color is Asmodeus's nose.' Heh heh." And, off in the corner, Asmodeus demanding a new host...) {Hehe.."And now, the host REALLY with the most..."} ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 00:08:04 -0700 From: "Matthew M. Colville" Subject: Re: IN> Hello! At 2:42 PM -0700 7/14/97, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: >> I am both new to this mailing list and In Nomine both. I bought the >> sourcebook (the angelic edition) and am about to start a PBEM game in >> which 3 players are Angels, 3 are Demons, two are Word Bound Angels for >> whom the 3 normal angels work and 2 players are Word Bound Demons for >> whom the three normal demons work. I will be pitting them against each >> other. The idea being that the Word Bound Celestials will be getting >> thier 'missions' from their Archangels/Demon Princes, will then use the >> other players as pawns. Ideally, the missions will be at >> cross-purposes and the players will end up in opposition. Of course, >> each group will receive its own version of what's happening, etc. . . > >I would warn you that PBEM games are hard to do - the turnaround time >on an average move is about a week, and coordination is a bitch. >Because of the turnaround, combat is going to really suck... Well, I've the added advantage of using my normal group of players as the 6 normal Celestials. So we can actually get together live and do the combats. Only the Superiors will be PBEM only, and they won't be duking it out. >> I'm setting the campaign in my Champions campaign, which has recently >> melded with White Wolf's World of Darkness. So while the players will >> mostly being warring over the mental, physical, and spiritual >> well-being of normal humans, they will be doing so in a world with >> super-powered humans, vampires, werewolves, mummies, faerie folk, and >> mages (from Ars Magica, not Mage: The Ascention. I think M:TA is just >> a silly idea.) > >Well, M:TA is an interesting idea, but I would have trouble playing >it. It smacks too much of Calvinball - everybody makes the rules, >and it ends in a huge arguement. I was pissed off that it claimed to be a whole rulessystem about mages, when in fact it's a whole system about Mentalists. Except for the one guy I argued with who claimed that of course Mage was really about Mages, because M:TA described how magic actually worked! I.e. here in the real world! Wierdo. Anyway, Ars Magica really is a whole campaign about Mages. Not people who alter reality by just really, really believing that it should work that way, but by casting spells just like every other fantasy melieu. - ---------------------- --------------------------- Matthew M. Colville. Armed only with wisdom mcolville@earthlink.net The Shintao Monks fight against the darkness... Role-Playing and Fiction http://home.earthlink.net/~mcolville ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:38:36 +1000 (EST) From: Peter Frederick Subject: IN> Age of Celestials (was Items and Age) Dear Matthew, Walter and List. >> Lastly, how old are Celestials? I know that many theologians believe >>that all Angels were created when God created Angels, and there are >>never any new ones. Is this tue of PCs? > >I believe the canon answer is that most PCs are of relatively recent >origin (note that a couple obscure passages in the book refer to >Superiors creating new servitors). Some celestials, including, I would >suspect, most of the Archangels and some of the Demon Princes, date back >to the Beginning. But very old celestials are likely to be much more >powerful than PCs, in general. For my campaign I have a variety of ages for my Player's Characters. "Before Iron Weapons", "When David's Immunity to Stone Distinction was Great" and "Took part in the War in Heaven" all the way down to created less than 6 months ago for the specific purpose of being in the Campaign City. >That said, remember that In Nomine is intended to be a rather loose >system -- if a player comes up with a good reason for a 9-Force PC to >have been around since near the Beginning, then let them go with it. There is no need for a steady rise in power (and Forces) of a Celestial over time. Development could come in fits and spurts and a Celestial could even regress to a lower level of power. Superiors give and Superiors take away, especially Demon Princes. >Note that this is one pitfall in allowing older PC celestials -- if they >were around at the time of Christ, they may likely *know* some of the >details. If you allow this, you're going to have to come up with >answers up front. With younger celestials, they won't know from >personal experience, and may not even have access to accurate historical >information on some of the touchier subjects. If someone knows then a PC, whatever age is going to be able to ask those questions, so you better have some sort of idea if you think your Players are going to be interested in that sort of thing. Thanking you for your indulgence. Yours Peter. Email to peterf@geko.net.au "Whoso loveth God truely must not expect to be loved by Him in return." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 07:32:44 -0700 (PDT) From: nightgaunt@earthlink.net (Alexander Shearer) Subject: Re: IN> Hello! > I was pissed off that it claimed to be a whole rulessystem about mages, when in fact it's a whole system about Mentalists. Except for the one guy I argued with who claimed that of course Mage was really about Mages, because M:TA described how magic actually worked! I.e. here in the real world! Wierdo. > Anyway, Ars Magica really is a whole campaign about Mages. Not people who alter reality by just really, really believing that it should work that way, but by casting spells just like every other fantasy melieu. ` Okay, I'm quickly becoming the defender of this game (though it has its own special flaws and big problems)...but that weirdo had a point. The basis of a lot of modern magical belief is that it is will over reality. Thus, belief, and control of belief is incredibly important. It does ring truer to a lot of modern magic than many systems. Of course, a /lot/ of people prefer the general magic system in GURPS: Voodoo for modeling modern ritual. Hmmm...Ars Magica/IN anyone? ArM is one of my favorite games. I'm sure Pax Dei and The Maleficium would be helpful supplements (the first time I saw Hearts in IN, I thought of the Caligo Heart from The Maleficium). Alexander Shearer nightgaunt@earthlink.net gaunt@uclink4.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #246 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.