From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Jul 17 00:02:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA20136 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:02:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA20618 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:09:55 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:09:55 -0500 Message-Id: <199707161909.OAA20618@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #247 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, July 16 1997 Volume 01 : Number 247 In this digest: Re: IN> Moral Decisions Re: IN> Age of Celestials (was Items and Age) Re: IN> Items and Age IN> Relics Re: IN> Items and Age Re: IN> Hello! Re: IN> Hello! Re: IN> Items and Age Re: IN> Hello! Re: IN> In Nomine font Re: IN> Hello! Re: IN> Age of Celestials (was Items and Age) Re: IN> Mailing list to infernalist@hotmail.com Re: IN> Hello! Re: IN> Items and Age Re: IN> Age of Celestials (was Items and Age) IN> Celestial Sensory ranges (was Animal Vessels) Re: IN> The Invisibles? IN> Asking Tricky Questions (was Age of Celestials) Re: IN> Age of Celestials (was Items and Age) IN> Proficiency and Numinous Corpus IN> Malakim of Creation Re: IN> Age of Celestials (was Items and Age) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 12:32:47 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Moral Decisions At 11:54 PM -0400 7/14/97, Gregory Littmann wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> How about some part of the Corporeal >> Plane they really enjoy and would hate to see destroyed? >> >Now *that* is interesting! Not so much a conflict between good and evil >but between evil and some other attachment. Like an art-loving demon who >doesn't give a damn about humanity but can't stand to see masterworks >destroyed. Now *there* is a source for soul-searching decisions something >akin to the moral decisions an angel might face. I *really* like this >idea... There are even potentials for "okay, I do evil, but I don't do *that* evil!" Note "A Dark Dream," where Sabrina seemed nonplussed by unzipping poor little doggies. E.g.: A Servitor of Death and a Servitor of Fate could find themselves at odds for *moral* reasons... "Hey, I just *kill* them, I don't rob them of their dignity as well! That's *tacky*!" "Foolish one, you merely kill them, you don't degrade them into fit fodder for the Principalities of Hell, as I do in service to my Prince!" "You two are both disgusting -- okay, so you can do what you want to the humans, but don't you *dare* damage the rainforests!" (Other two demons look at each other, sigh, and mutter, "Habbalah. He still thinks he's working for Jordi.") - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 97 11:49 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Age of Celestials (was Items and Age) >>That said, remember that In Nomine is intended to be a rather loose >>system -- if a player comes up with a good reason for a 9-Force PC to >>have been around since near the Beginning, then let them go with it. > >There is no need for a steady rise in power (and Forces) of a Celestial over >time. Development could come in fits and spurts and a Celestial could even >regress to a lower level of power. Superiors give and Superiors take away, >especially Demon Princes. This definitely works well with demons, but is less justifiable for angels, unless the character is defined to be a marginal type who's always getting into trouble with his Superior. A history full of celestial combat can also account for lack of "progress" -- the character advances, and gets knocked back in a big fight every once in a while. This is especially appropriate for Malakim and Calabim, but can work well enough for others. >>Note that this is one pitfall in allowing older PC celestials -- if they >>were around at the time of Christ, they may likely *know* some of the >>details. If you allow this, you're going to have to come up with >>answers up front. With younger celestials, they won't know from >>personal experience, and may not even have access to accurate historical >>information on some of the touchier subjects. > >If someone knows then a PC, whatever age is going to be able to ask those >questions, so you better have some sort of idea if you think your Players >are going to be interested in that sort of thing. Certainly *someone* knows -- at the very least answers can be found in Yves' and Kronos' archives. But some information may be off-limits: "I'm sorry, that's in the restricted stacks, and you don't have clearance." Considering how much trouble the rise of Islam caused in Heaven, I suspect digging up certain bits of the past is *strongly* discouraged by most Archangels. And you can't trust anyone in Hell to tell you the straight story, anyway. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 97 11:40 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Items and Age >> Hmmmm... I suppose there is *one* way I'd allow a Kyrio to take a Role >> -- they could be a recluse, who only does things by mail (or the net), >> and never meets anyone face-to-face. This is a bit tricky to manage, > Oh, dear...the Unabomber was a Kyrio? > Though, on a weird thought, there's the idea that a Kyriotate >could have a particular Role which would then give them some advantages >towards posessing people who fit it...(eg. a Kyrio with Doctor/5 would >have an easier time, er, playing doctor...still not quite getting the >actual doctor's memories, but having a much easier time fitting into his >life..) I like this idea -- maybe that's the way to allow a Kyrio to access the "does not disrupt the Symphony" aspect of a Role. Might want to discount the Role, though since the Kyrio doesn't have all the usual benefits of it. Half-price, maybe? >> I believe the canon answer is that most PCs are of relatively recent >> origin (note that a couple obscure passages in the book refer to >> Superiors creating new servitors). Some celestials, including, I would > And Relievers building up to Angels...though the impression I got >from the rules was that PC's are strongly encouraged to be very new to >Earth duty, but may be as old as they want on the Celestial side... That's the way I read it, too. Though age on the celestial side still can bring up problems of "why are you still only 9 Forces after a millenium?" Talk about dead-end jobs.... Obviously, character backstory is important in situations like this. >(Of course, now I'm picturing this harrowing adventure with Celestials >from both sides seeking after some mega artifact culminating in a >gameshow...Nybbas there turning the letters, of course, and Yves reading >the answers. "Brown." "What color were Jesus's eyes?" "Wrong...the >correct question was, `What color is Asmodeus's nose.' Heh heh." And, >off in the corner, Asmodeus demanding a new host...) >{Hehe.."And now, the host REALLY with the most..."} That's *truly* sick and twisted.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 12:06:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: IN> Relics I saw an article that had various relics in it, including the magic eight ball, and the hula hoop. Can anyone tell me where to locate this article? Shadowcat All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 14:43:39 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Items and Age On Jul 13, 1:43pm, Matthew M. Colville wrote: > Subject: IN> Items and Age > Ok, my players are rolling up characters and I have a few questions. > I'm sure the book answers them somewhere, and I am reading through it, > but I'm impatient. > > > First off, one of my players wants to create an artifact with two > songs in it. Is this possible? He's a Kyrio who runs an arcade. He > wants a pinball he can toss on the ground and have it follow someone > around. He put the Corporeal Song of Motion into it and the Corporeal > Song of Something Else (attraction, or something like that, the book's > in my bedroom.) Is this legal? Nowhere in the book do I find mention > of an artifact with more than one Song. Neither do I find any rule > specifically prohibiting multiple Songs in an artifact. The basic rules don't allow for more than one Song per Relic. More advanced rules are being written even as we speak. Use this for now: Each additional Song cost 2 times the level of the Song up to the Level of the Artifact. Each Song has its own Essence reserve that can only be used for _that_ Song. If the Relic also has a Reliquary, the rules for how it divides up the Essence are determined by its creator (and cannot be changed). [for example: Reliquary A puts its Essence in the reserves in order until each Song is full and then it goes to the next. i.e. Song A until its full, then Song B, then Song C, etc. Reliquary B, on the other hand, puts the Essence in round-robin to any Songs that need it. i.e. Song A, Song B, Song C, Song A.] This order cannot be changed after the artifact is created. > Also, he's bought a Role, does that mean he needs to buy a Vessel so > he can be his role? Most Roles require a specific vessel. Some tricky ones might not, though! (Hacker, Freelance writer, etc). Few people will believe that the 50-yr old man who was the janitor last week has mysteriously transformed into the 18-yr old gum-chewing girl this week! > Lastly, how old are Celestials? I know that many theologians believe > that all Angels were created when God created Angels, and there are > never any new ones. Is this tue of PCs? New angels have been created since the first one up to the present day. Very old angels could have witnessed the War. Angels can either be created or born from other angels (the rules for that are being hashed out right now). > Also, In Nomine seems to take a pretty Augustinian approach to Will > and Intellect. Am I to presume the other Augistinian theologies are at > work too? What if I think that Aquinas was right, and the Intellect > comes before the Will? Will there be supplaments for other Celestial > models? More power to you. There will probably never be any supplements for other models of thought for In Nomine, however. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:55:20 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Hello! > >I would warn you that PBEM games are hard to do - the turnaround time > >on an average move is about a week, and coordination is a bitch. > >Because of the turnaround, combat is going to really suck... > > Well, I've the added advantage of using my normal group of players as > the 6 normal Celestials. So we can actually get together live and do > the combats. Only the Superiors will be PBEM only, and they won't be > duking it out. Now that would work, and I have wanted to do that (myself) for a while. And as long as we have the resources, coordinating this on a broader scale might be fun - get a PBEM game of superiors going, and have what they do effect multiple RW games. > Anyway, Ars Magica really is a whole campaign about Mages. Not people > who alter reality by just really, really believing > that it should work that way, but by casting spells just like every > other fantasy melieu. Well, I haven't yet looked at magic, but I may use M:tA as a source for what other "knowledgable" people know about mages. You see, they actually just have control over their essence, which allows them a lot of "luck" through controlled use. They have to be careful, though - they don't risk Paradox, but they do risk Disturbance, and there are plenty of minor demons who might get rewarded for a Mage's soul. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten. -George Carlin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:55:20 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Hello! > >Well, M:TA is an interesting idea, but I would have trouble playing > >it. It smacks too much of Calvinball - everybody makes the rules, > >and it ends in a huge arguement. > > It really doesn't play out like that at all. The characters may have > extremely divergent views of how reality does/should work, and how to work > their will on it...but the rules all work the same way (actually, they're > really a bit too restricted/directed in some ways). I've never been in a > Mage game which even approached Calvinball. I imagine it depends on the maturity of players - I know a lot of players I would *not* have play in a Mage game, and very few I would. For In Nomine, the field is a little wider. > >Actually, I was looking at doing something similar to what you are > >doing. I am tearing up a lot of the WoD, though - werecreatures are > >being changed (it didn't make sense that the various types of weres > >were so dissimilar), and the vampires are going to be similarly > >deconstructed. Email me in private - maybe we can help each other. > > Hmmm. Also, try searching on the web for the old Angel/Demon > supplements (a number of people have done that theme) for the WoD. I'm sure > you can find one or more versions at > http://php.ucs.indiana.edu/~adashiel/wod/ (That's B.J.Zanzibar's World of > Darkness Archive - it's very good). I already have BJ's page bookmarked. I remember the suppliment(s) you are talking about, and frankly, they aren't that great. I may use them like I am going to use the In Nomine information on Vampires, Mummies, etc - source for incorrect group beliefs. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten. -George Carlin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 15:57:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> Items and Age > > The basic rules don't allow for more than one Song per > Relic. More advanced rules are being written even as we speak. > Use this for now: Each additional Song cost 2 times the level > of the Song up to the Level of the Artifact. Each Song has its > own Essence reserve that can only be used for _that_ Song. If the > Relic also has a Reliquary, the rules for how it divides up the > Essence are determined by its creator (and cannot be changed). What are the rules to follow in the great Relic competition? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 16:05:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> Hello! > >Well, M:TA is an interesting idea, but I would have trouble playing > >it. It smacks too much of Calvinball - everybody makes the rules, > >and it ends in a huge arguement. > > It really doesn't play out like that at all. The characters may have > extremely divergent views of how reality does/should work, and how to work > their will on it...but the rules all work the same way (actually, they're > really a bit too restricted/directed in some ways). I've never been in a > Mage game which even approached Calvinball. > > I thought that the point was more than just that the characters had different views of reality. I took it that he was making the common complaint that the players have to determine how to produce a magickal effect - can I do x with Correspondence 2 and Spirit 2 or will I need 5 in everything? In this sense, everyone makes the rules. IMHO, this is fuel for huge arguments. Mage rocks when it works, but you need a group of players who can shut up even when they think the G.M. is wrong and even when they think that they can prove it - just because it would take 15 minutes or more to get the point across. That takes a fair bit of maturity and self-discipline and also requires that the G.M. refrains from abusing their *own* position by twisting those bendy old rules whenever *they* feel like it. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:53:31 -0100 From: Henry Leirvoll Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine font Did you ever find that font? - If you do, could you PLEASE write me? - -- 0000,0000,ffffH. Leirvoll / kulde@intercom.no ICQ - UIN : 1255494 ffff,0000,0000- ^Heksheim / Black Metal^ - http://www.intercom.no/~kulde ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:33:29 -0800 From: nightgaunt@earthlink.net (Alexander Shearer) Subject: Re: IN> Hello! >> >> Hmmm. Also, try searching on the web for the old Angel/Demon >> supplements (a number of people have done that theme) for the WoD. I'm sure >> you can find one or more versions at >> http://php.ucs.indiana.edu/~adashiel/wod/ (That's B.J.Zanzibar's World of >> Darkness Archive - it's very good). > >I already have BJ's page bookmarked. I remember the suppliment(s) >you are talking about, and frankly, they aren't that great. I may >use them like I am going to use the In Nomine information on >Vampires, Mummies, etc - source for incorrect group beliefs. > Ah well. I basically pointed you at something I've yet to read myself (never had a desire for Angels and Demons in the WoD). I do like the idea of using them as a source of misinformation, though. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:46:09 +1000 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Age of Celestials (was Items and Age) > >There is no need for a steady rise in power (and Forces) of a Celestial over > >time. Development could come in fits and spurts and a Celestial could even > >regress to a lower level of power. Superiors give and Superiors take away, > >especially Demon Princes. > > This definitely works well with demons, but is less justifiable for > angels, unless the character is defined to be a marginal type who's > always getting into trouble with his Superior. > > A history full of celestial combat can also account for lack of > "progress" -- the character advances, and gets knocked back in a big > fight every once in a while. This is especially appropriate for Malakim > and Calabim, but can work well enough for others. Remember that the PC celestials are those who act as 'special agents' for their Superior, and that most 'normal' Celestials have less Forces than humans. A celestial could have been around since the War, but only acting as a menial, until being promoted recently and given more Forces. - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia You kill me with your smelly fingers Your smelly fingers from the sex you had on Christmas Day And now you say you're feeling guilty You're feeling guilty 'cos your God was shining on your face SKUNK ANANSIE, "Selling Jesus" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 01:44:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Calabim@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Mailing list to infernalist@hotmail.com In a message dated 97-07-15 04:07:13 EDT, you write: << Hi I would like to be in the mailing list too. But in the e-mail infernalist@hotmail.com >> Hey! what do you know? "Infernalist" would like to be on the "Infernal-list"! Sorry. - -Calabim@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 15:59:15 +1000 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Hello! Gregory Littmann wrote: > > > > I thought that the point was more than just that the characters had > different views of reality. I took it that he was making the common > complaint that the players have to determine how to produce a magickal > effect - can I do x with Correspondence 2 and Spirit 2 or will I need 5 in > everything? In this sense, everyone makes the rules. > > IMHO, this is fuel for huge arguments. Mage rocks when it works, but > you need a group of players who can shut up even when they think the G.M. > is wrong and even when they think that they can prove it - just because it > would take 15 minutes or more to get the point across. That takes a fair > bit of maturity and self-discipline and also requires that the G.M. > refrains from abusing their *own* position by twisting those bendy old > rules whenever *they* feel like it. We had this problem when I was running MAGE. Easiest way around it is to discuss the problem between games rather than during. Even then, of course, you get into big discussions over cosmology and effects. Maybe the only way to make the game work perfectly is to have each and every player be familiar with every rule/effect/gameworld quirk, but that's next to impossible. Incidentally, does this dicussion really need to be on the IN-list? Maybe private e-mail is the way to go... - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia You kill me with your smelly fingers Your smelly fingers from the sex you had on Christmas Day And now you say you're feeling guilty You're feeling guilty 'cos your God was shining on your face SKUNK ANANSIE, "Selling Jesus" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 01:03:59 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Items and Age > of the Song up to the Level of the Artifact. Each Song has its > own Essence reserve that can only be used for _that_ Song. If the What, just automatically? I'd still say it has to be a Reliquary, and the Essence is just in a pool for the Artifact that can be used for whatever the artifact can use Essence for, the way it is in everything else...(I'm having difficulty picturing HOW the Essence gets divided up as you go on to describe. What barriers are there within a platinum-band ring capable of invoking Ethereal Attraction and Corporeal Light, such that it can have 5 Essence available for the former but only 2 for the latter...and worse, such that you can draw on the first five but not the last two for personal use? Essence has otherwise always sounded to be much more of a `raw force' than that, interchangeable for...well, whatever. It's just a question of having it, which is where the problem lies...) I WOULD be inclined to say that each additional Song added, at Level/3 or above, automatically increases the Reliquary-level by one, with the potential to go over 6 this way, however. > might not, though! (Hacker, Freelance writer, etc). Few people > will believe that the 50-yr old man who was the janitor last > week has mysteriously transformed into the 18-yr old gum-chewing > girl this week! "It's, um, trick photography, that's all. No? Okay..would you believe I got a face lift? Aw, man..alright, you're on to me. But I would have gotten away with it, if it weren't for those darned kids and their mangy mutt..." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:49:09 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Age of Celestials (was Items and Age) > >There is no need for a steady rise in power (and Forces) of a Celestial over > >time. Development could come in fits and spurts and a Celestial could even > >regress to a lower level of power. Superiors give and Superiors take away, > This definitely works well with demons, but is less justifiable for > angels, unless the character is defined to be a marginal type who's I don't know about that...it's more varied by Superior than by side. (For example, I don't think Baal is likely to be THAT capracious about it; once he gives a reward, it probably tends to stick. If you've proven yourself, you've proven yourself...and if you screw up badly enough that he's going to start taking back rank, he probably rips you straight down to nothing. For a counter-example, Dominic or Gabriel seem quite likely to strip Forces, Distinctions, or whatever seems appropriate from Angels who have earned them in the past but seem to need warning now...) > >If someone knows then a PC, whatever age is going to be able to ask those > >questions, so you better have some sort of idea if you think your Players > >are going to be interested in that sort of thing. > Certainly *someone* knows -- at the very least answers can be found in > Yves' and Kronos' archives. But some information may be off-limits: I'm not nearly that certain, unless you want to take it up a step and suggest that *Someone* must know..but we know who that One is. (Archangel Beth, yes, but that other guy, too.) > Heaven, I suspect digging up certain bits of the past is *strongly* > discouraged by most Archangels. Still, THAT'S a good point...at the very least, it's going to be - -SO- strongly discouraged by Dominic that even other Archangels' Servitors are going to start drawing some serious scrutiny if they start poking around for that sort of thing... Besides...PCs have more important things to do with their Superior's time than spend it looking up past trivia in the Library...shouldn't they be getting back down there and, say, I know this is a novel concept, but maybe..doing their job? Like, now? [taptaptap] Or would they rather, if they just don't have the time for Earth duty anymore, maybe be assigned to Celestial KP? That COULD be arranged...ah, yes, I see you're going, then. Good job. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:32:54 +1000 (EST) From: Peter Frederick Subject: IN> Celestial Sensory ranges (was Animal Vessels) Dear Brutus, Alex, Matthew and List At 11:45 AM 12/7/97 -0700, Matthew wrote: >At 10:02 PM -0700 7/11/97, Brutus The Cat wrote: >>>The other problem I see comes mainly from the sensory abilities of different >>>creatures and therefore (IMO) vessels. While any Celestial may have a very >>>high Perception, and therefore very acute senses, it seems that they are >>>only acute within normal human ranges (when in a human vessel). Ie no ultra >>>or sub sonic hearing, no tracking by scent and no infra red or ultra violet >>>vision. >> >> I personally feel the need to point out that when inhabiting an object (as >>a Kyrio) the book specifically mentions that the celestial has the senses >>and capabilities of that object, within reason. Specifically, it mentions >>that a celestial inhabiting a radio would easily be able to speak to >>someone, as well as posessing the capabilitiy to hear radio waves. Much >>thanks. >> >> Alex >[Matthew] > The IN FAQ specifically says that all Celestials always have all thier senses. They just also get any senses of the object they're inhabiting. So a Lamp would be able to see and hear, etc. . .but not speak. Although it could (as one of my players, John Mara (credit where it's due)) communicate in morse code. > > Keep in mind that possessing the senses of a Celestial doesn't mean you can >speak. Speaking is not a sense. They use the example of a lawnmower, which could rev >it's engine suggestively, but not speak, or of a TV or Radio which certainly could >speak, no problem. Without referring to it directly I recall that section of the FAQ as relating to Kyriotates, specifically those of Jean. Which is a pretty limited case. The question might be better refocused as What is the standard range of a Celestial's senses. It is the difference between "I knew there was a gunman behind the door because I heard him take the safety of his gun" (percption roll at -6) and "There are ultrasonic motion detectors in that room, I can hear them" (simply not possible unless you can hear ultrasonic sound). As far as I can tell Celestials in HUMAN vessels have human sensory ranges, but can make perception rolls at greater minuses because they have higher perceptions. Thus they can hear the safety catch on your gun, but not the motion detectors. It makes sense (IMHO) that since they have human sensory ranges in human forms that in other vessels they have the sensory ranges of that vessel. If they maintain a standard set of senses then inhabiting a Bat is going to me real tricky and any animal that communicates with sound or scent beyond the range of human (or Celestial whatever that is) senseory ranges is going to be a bitch too. A minor point maybe, but one that I think could add to the enjoyment of those who wish to try something a little outside the ordinary. Thanking you for your indulgence. Yours Peter. Email to peterf@geko.net.au "Whoso loveth God truely must not expect to be loved by Him in return." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:42:07 +1000 (EST) From: Peter Frederick Subject: Re: IN> The Invisibles? Dear Austin (and List) >>And while in an IN setting it >>would seem that the Dark Invisibles are allies (or more likely Lackies) to >>Hell I don;t think King Mob, Mr 6 and Co would be any more interested in >>assistance from Heaven than they are in Hell. >> >I don't know about that. They certainly seem to have plenty of help >from the denizens of the Marches, who still have power in the spacetime >supersphere where Jack Frost hangs out ("I worship a god with an elephant >head!" -- Gideon Stargrave), but they've also got the Hidden Stone (a >Gnostic "True Christ" Who says "I am not the God of your fathers. I >am the Hidden Stone and I break all hearts...") on their side. Then >again, that's the Invisibles in that universe. Who knows but what ol' >Gideon might stop off in the Symphony on one of his jaunts across the >polyverse? > Hmmmm, went back and had a look and I think that you gotta point here. I would have put Jim Crows's antics down as part of invoking his Guise (my term for the Invisibles Anti-Role), but Jack Frost and Lord Fanny's experiences certainly look like communication by beings reasonably freindly of something from another plane. Thanking you for your indulgence. Yours Peter. Email to peterf@geko.net.au "Whoso loveth God truely must not expect to be loved by Him in return." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 18:05:04 +1000 (EST) From: Peter Frederick Subject: IN> Asking Tricky Questions (was Age of Celestials) Dear Walter and List >>>Note that this is one pitfall in allowing older PC celestials -- if they >>>were around at the time of Christ, they may likely *know* some of the >>>details. If you allow this, you're going to have to come up with >>>answers up front. With younger celestials, they won't know from >>>personal experience, and may not even have access to accurate historical >>>information on some of the touchier subjects. >> >>If someone knows then a PC, whatever age is going to be able to ask those >>questions, so you better have some sort of idea if you think your Players >>are going to be interested in that sort of thing. > >Certainly *someone* knows -- at the very least answers can be found in >Yves' and Kronos' archives. But some information may be off-limits: >"I'm sorry, that's in the restricted stacks, and you don't have >clearance." Considering how much trouble the rise of Islam caused in >Heaven, I suspect digging up certain bits of the past is *strongly* >discouraged by most Archangels. And you can't trust anyone in Hell to >tell you the straight story, anyway. I tend to look at it the other way. The info is around and you might have to ask, but if you do then there are people who will just tell you. Not Dominic and not Lawrence, whose "need to know" reflex would be well developed, but Eli (if you can find him) and on some things Michael might only look at you and ask if you are sure you want to know then just give it to you straight. Note that simple direct answers to complex questions are likely to be less than imformative. Thanking you for your indulgence. Yours Peter. Email to peterf@geko.net.au "Whoso loveth God truely must not expect to be loved by Him in return." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 18:04:51 +1000 (EST) From: Peter Frederick Subject: Re: IN> Age of Celestials (was Items and Age) Dear Walter and List At 11:49 AM 15/7/97 EDT, Walter Milliken wrote: >>>That said, remember that In Nomine is intended to be a rather loose >>>system -- if a player comes up with a good reason for a 9-Force PC to >>>have been around since near the Beginning, then let them go with it. >> >>There is no need for a steady rise in power (and Forces) of a Celestial over >>time. Development could come in fits and spurts and a Celestial could even >>regress to a lower level of power. Superiors give and Superiors take away, >>especially Demon Princes. > >This definitely works well with demons, but is less justifiable for >angels, unless the character is defined to be a marginal type who's >always getting into trouble with his Superior. > >A history full of celestial combat can also account for lack of >"progress" -- the character advances, and gets knocked back in a big >fight every once in a while. This is especially appropriate for Malakim >and Calabim, but can work well enough for others. Celestial combat certainly is one way it can go, hats what I have in mind for one of my PC's who has regressed. The other major "regressee" is a Seraph who got disinchanted with things and went for a long wander in the Ethereal. In that time their Superior reduced their abilities and others who had invested attunements and distinction in the Character decided that they had ceased to be and took them back. Now they have returned, but under a bit of a cloud as their loss of certaintitt is seen in some circles as a near pass to Falling. The other way that I see it happening is that a Superior might decide that they like a particular Celestial "just so". A 12" dagger might be just the right size where a 14" one is a bit uncomfortable, in the same way a 10 Force servitor might be perfect for some jobs where a 14 Force one might be a bit unwieldly. If you had someone who is great at a particular job why would you ever want them to move on to somethingelse that they might not be good at, and force you to look for a replacement. Just a piece of MHO, thanking you for your indulgence. Yours Peter. Email to peterf@geko.net.au "Whoso loveth God truely must not expect to be loved by Him in return." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 97 10:10:11 CDT From: Oscar Rodriguez Subject: IN> Proficiency and Numinous Corpus Hey... I'm looking for a little bit of support on this topic. A Malakim of War wants to take the proficiency attunement in claws. I read the description and said that I think that numinous corpus did not qualify for that particular attunement, but he disagreed (along with the rest of my group). Am I being a being to stringent on the players or do I have a point? Oscar ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 97 09:29:54 CDT From: Oscar Rodriguez Subject: IN> Malakim of Creation Hey... I have a player who wants to play a Malakim of Creation. An issue came up, obviously. It says that these Malakim are supposed to fight creatively. The rules say: "Anything they pick up can be used as a weapon with a power equal to the check digit of a successful Perception roll, for the length of a single combat." The problem is does the character receive penalties to use such a weapon. The weapon skills all require specifics. So should he come up with small weapons (spoon) or should we go broad with small weapon (blunt)? Or do we drop that all together given the nature of his attunement? Comments from the peanut gallery? Oscar ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 97 11:51 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Age of Celestials (was Items and Age) > Remember that the PC celestials are those who act as 'special agents' >for their Superior, and that most 'normal' Celestials have less Forces >than humans. A celestial could have been around since the War, but only >acting as a menial, until being promoted recently and given more Forces. I don't think there's support for this idea in the book; to the contrary, I believe it says Relievers only become full angels when they gain their 9th Force. So it's true that a Reliever might have been around for a long time, but it's not an *angel* until it gets the 9th Force. I believe there's also been some implication by various SJG Superiors that a lot of angels, at least, may be created directly with 9 Forces. The section on Lilim also implies that they always start with 9. For demons, things are less clear -- the "quantity over quality" theory seems to favor low-Force infernals like imps and gremlins. And there are some demons in the GM screen adventure that have 7 Forces. - ---Walter ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #247 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.