From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Jul 23 18:16:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA02548 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 18:16:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA28705 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:47:34 -0500 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:47:34 -0500 Message-Id: <199707231947.OAA28705@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #256 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, July 23 1997 Volume 01 : Number 256 In this digest: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #252 Re: IN> in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Why Mix Superiors? (Re: IN> Malakim of Creation) Re: IN> Angels and Religion Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy Re: IN> Resonating Celestials (Re: Seraph resonance) Re: IN> Resonating Celestials (Re: Seraph resonance) Re: IN> Dark In Nomine (was Dominic is not a Bad Guy) IN> Malakim are people too ;) Re: IN> Resonating Celestials (Re: Seraph resonance) Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy Re: IN> Dark In Nomine (was Dominic is not a Bad Guy) Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy Re: IN> Dark In Nomine (was Dominic is not a Bad Guy) IN> Celestial Advancement and Ambition (was Age of Celestials (was Items and Age)) IN> Dark In Nomine IN> Angels & Religion Re: IN> Angels and Religion IN> Secrets of the Universe Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy IN> Back to celestial populations again.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:51:18 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy > >>>Actually, I haven't seen ANYONE make him out to be petty. > Vindictive, yes - that's his job.<<< > Some people have suggested Dominic is persecuting Eli and Gabriel because > of a personal grudge, and that he went after Michael for similar reasons. I Eli and Michael I think he's gone after for better reasons; Gabriel I think he went after in a fit of pique and because Yves is too `untouchable', even for Dominic...he may very well have regretted it since, but myself, I don't think Gabriel WAS so insane until Dominic broke her under the weight of the Inquisition. > then why bother including that dissonance rule? "I'll punish 'em however I > see fit...that's MY standard." Doesn't work for Servitors of Judgment. It can go either way. Either they're all held strictly to Dominic's view (whatever the GM decides that may be), or, like the Malakim choosing their Oaths, each Servitor of Judgment has their own standard. They still have to judge everyone according to it - no chopping off one persons hand and giving the next a $5 fine - but it'd still make sense overall. (For that matter, there may even be subjective morality Servitors of Judgment. I doubt Dominic approves of them much, but...) > carry out capital punishment for any crime they see, you can do that. That Honestly, I don't much see Servitors of Judgment doing it...not often, anyway; capital punishment is hard to apply to angels without getting pretty extreme, for one. Dominic, on the other hand, I tend to see as having some tendancy towards it. > I'm not a Biblical scholar, but I don't think the Old Testament advocates > cutting off a hand for stealing, either. (Neither does the Quran, Okay, stoning, then? (Or the Celestial equivalent, which I suppose would be everyone nipping at them with little Will blasts until they start losing Forces...) > Dominic is NOT still persecuting Gabriel for the founding of Islam-- he's > accepted that. He's investigating her now because of all the things she's > done *since* leaving Heaven. Matter of opinion, though I'll note again that there's no significant evidence that Gabriel WAS insane before Dominic drove her there...he's CERTAINLY the reason she left Heaven. > >>>and he judges according to HIS standard, not necessarily the prevailing > one.<<< > His standard IS the prevailing one in Heaven-- he's Judgment! God gave him Well, yes, I'm sure that's HIS answer. I'm not so sure Michael, say, would agree. > >>>Again; never called him a `rogue' judge. Just a scary one, and a > fanatical one.<<< > Yes...but what makes him really scary is that he's usually right! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 97 11:47 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #252 >> >> I wonder if there was a little more to it - for example, why was she >> >> accepting an order from Yves? He could have done that recitation himself, >> >> after all. >> > >> >Yves knew this would irritate Dominic, and therefore got Gabriel to do >> >it. >> >> I can't see Yves doing this -- he seems least likely of all the >> Archangels to be petty. >[snip] > >Sorry, my point was that Yves delegated responsability rather than have >Dominic bear a grudge against him (as opposed to someone else). For >whichever reason it had to be done, but let someone else take the blame. I still don't see Yves doing this -- he seems to be above this sort of thing. (Look at how many other Archangels respect and align with him, for one.) I did misread what you said, but I think it's still unlikely. Note also that it was Gabriel's *job* to carry information from Heaven to Earth; she gave that up after the flap Islam caused. Given that, Yves asking her to do the job makes perfect sense -- she was Heaven's Voice. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:25:49 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> in_nomine-l@lists.io.com At 2:25 PM -0400 7/21/97, Jeff Miller wrote: >At 10:31 PM 7/19/97 +0500, you wrote: >>> At the mention of manga, I had a horrible vision of a Malakite and a >>>Calabite going at it just like A-Ko and B-Ko (lobbing tanks around, etc). >>> >>> Would a tank qualify as a Large Weapon? :P >> >>In A-Ko's case, a tank falls under Throwing. >> >C-Ko, would have to be one heck of a Lilim. UGH! Nah, she's an Impudite -- with a constantly "on" Charm field. Mind you, she has no Ethereal Forces... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:10:26 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Why Mix Superiors? (Re: IN> Malakim of Creation) At 2:32 PM -0400 7/21/97, Jeff Miller wrote: >At 12:59 AM 7/19/97 GMT, you wrote: >>Just FWIW, my take has been that a player's Archangel orders him to serve >>some other Archangel, and generally all the PCs serve the Archangel(s) >>appropriate to the task they're assigned. IOW, the GM says, "Ok, your >>Archangels have all assigned you to work for Novalis this month." I pick >>Novalis just to scare the hell out of my own players. ;) >> > > >Wouldn't bother me none. > >However, I think that most non-Eli angels work only for their own >Archangel. They may be ordered to cooperate with angels of other >Archangels but they are, ultimatly, following the orders of and responsible >to their own Archangel. > >Why would an Archangel *want* angels from another Arch? Their own way is >much better isn't it? If it's only a temporary loan, they might want someone who could "bend the rules" of dissonance conditions... Say you're one of David's, and your Soldier-pals are getting mowed down by this demon-led gang with guns. Grit the teeth and call in the angel of Creation in service to Stone -- and hand him an Uzi. At least you get to see the surprised expression on the enemy's face when a "Servitor of Stone" grins and opens fire... When Fate is getting tricky, sometimes you want someone who can read Destiny, but who won't get too hurt if they accidentily help Fate. And those are reasons to want angels of Creation working for you. Sometimes it's simpler to just call in your good buddies who work for someone else, and get synergy... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 12:15:01 -0400 From: Highway Star Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Religion At 09:34 AM 07/22/97 -0500, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >a puzzle common to all three religions). Where angels are depicted >as independent personalities, they are also generally depicted as >praying to God, and in fact I have generally assumed that the >"average angel" (not a PC on Earth duty) spends most of its time >celebrating the glory of God. (In the TV show "Touched by an Angel," Hmmm... Therefore, sure, there may be lots more angels then demons, and more powerful angels at that. But how many angels are *active* on Earth, versus how many demons? It'd seem that while angels outnumber demons all in all, demons may outnumber angels on Earth. Which to me, seems more appropriate. SeanMike - -- SeanMike Whipkey aka Highway Star - UVA - Mr. Jefferson's Resort GWAR slave - Paintball Player/Ref/President - VA Pep Band "Nothing is more offensive than simple honesty." - The Heretic "I'm locked and loaded, and you'll have to pay" - Oderus Urungus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 97 16:57 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy >Angels don't seem to care about lovers or minor "sins" such as extramarital >sex; they're more worried about the War as a whole. If a man and his >girlfriend (for example) have sex, they won't care. Actually, Eli does care -- it falls under his word. There seems to be an implication that he particularly cares about procreation, and hence, families, as well. From his Rites, and his opposition to Andrealphus, it also seems that he strongly distinguishes consensual sex from non-consenual sex, and probably "sex for love" from "sex for tension relief". And despite his generally laid-back attitude, he might actually dislike homosexuality slightly, but only because it doesn't create children. (I suspect he doesn't oppose it, any more than he appears to oppose any other form of consenual non-procreative sex, but it might be rated with them as an inferior form of sex.) > If the man cheats on >his wife with an old girlfriend then they will - that's more likely to >cause problems such as hatred, jealousy, etc. This should at least bother Cherubim, and probably most other angels as well, at least if it *does* generate such problems. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 18:28:07 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Resonating Celestials (Re: Seraph resonance) At 11:38 AM -0600 7/22/97, Kingsley Lintz wrote: >> Impudite's social status, etc.; and the Kyriotate could ATTEMPT >> TO TAKE OVER THE DEMON! (Well, that answers *that* question about >> celestials possessing other celestials...) > Though, I actually would think a Kyriotate would have trouble >taking over a Demon of the same number of Forces... Or less! >that would mean >concentrating the Kyrio all in one place. It's not specifically MENTIONED >under their Dissonance, but that's a clear step towards Shedim... I don't think so -- it's not an easy thing for them, mayhap, but being "just one person" at a time probably isn't risking dissonance. Now, if they got *addicted* to that or something... (Besides, if it's a 10-force Kyrio or a 7-force demon, the Kyrio wouldn't have a problem. Take the Demon, walk it to the nearest Heaven-Tether, let it loose there... "Hi!") - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 97 18:37 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Resonating Celestials (Re: Seraph resonance) >> Impudite's social status, etc.; and the Kyriotate could ATTEMPT >> TO TAKE OVER THE DEMON! (Well, that answers *that* question about >> celestials possessing other celestials...) > Though, I actually would think a Kyriotate would have trouble >taking over a Demon of the same number of Forces...that would mean >concentrating the Kyrio all in one place. It's not specifically MENTIONED >under their Dissonance, but that's a clear step towards Shedim... It's probably not comfortable, but sometimes it's useful. Becasue of potential Trauma, as well as the oddness of a single viewpoint, most Kyrios are going to be reluctant to put all their Forces into one host. This may occur even for low-Force hosts, if the Kyrio doesn't have any other hosts currently. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 18:19:46 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Dark In Nomine (was Dominic is not a Bad Guy) > > (it is the back > > story for a In Nomine/WoD game I am planning to do...someday). > > Difficult - especially since some mages seem more powerful than angels. Mages as written in WoD don't exist - reality is not consentual. Mage might be used for disinformation, the way I am using In Nomine information on Vampires. > BTW, speaking of In Nomine & the WoD, I recently read an interview with > Steve Jackson where in which he commented on the fact that surveys show > people prefering to play Angels to Demons 4 to 1. He took it as a sign > than people were sick of dark angst games. Personally, I think that In > Nomine played for dark angst works a whole lot *better* when you are > playing an angel. Demons don't get depressed by suffering and they sure > as hell don't have to wonder if they are really making a difference! WoD > games themselves usually focus around people trying to do the right thing > in a world that is going to hell in a handbasket. Demons could do angst, if they weren't written as so irredeamably bad. Of the Demons, my favorites are the Djinn and the Lilim, because they don't seem all that committed to evil. My least favorite are the Shedim - alien as the Kyriotate are, I can't see one realistically being a Redeemed Shedim. Shedim are pure evil, and fairly mindless, as well. > I just hope that SJG doesn't decide that dark is dead. In Nomine can > reach levels of dark that other games, even WoD games, simply can't reach. > Evil is a pretty indespensible part of it, after all! Well, Dark seems to be selling well, so I doubt they are going to go with Dark-Is-Dead. Anyway, my reply would be longer, but supper (and my family) calls. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "I seem to have forgotten what families are actually for...Families seem to be a form of SM relationships without safewords." - Neil Hudson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:31:06 -0500 From: Robert Beck Subject: IN> Malakim are people too ;) Hi all, Not too long ago, there was some question as to whether Malakim can be anything else buy combat gods. The following is an example of the fledgling campaign I'm playing in that will show Malakim can be just as entertaining as any other choir. This is a typical fish out of water scenario, which is why it was so comical when we played it. Our little group at the time consisted of a Joshua, a Cherub of Michael, Levi, a Malakite of Gabriel, and Milo, an Ofanite of Janus. We were protecting this woman who'd been witness to a crime, but as we were questioning her as to the specifics of what she knew, she announced she was hungry and wanted something to eat. So, we jumped into our old, rusty Nomad that Milo had procured for us and began seeking a restaurant. Milo is the type who can find things, when needed, and he found a place to eat...Denny's. We asked if this was ok, and were taken aback by the slight twinge of disgust on her face. She said it was "fine", so we went in and sat down. Joshua and Levi were both fairly huge types, while Milo had a pretty average vessel, and of course there was this petite little woman sitting amongst us, looking rather uncomfortable. The brown polyester pants clad waitress sallied forth to take our orders. Of course, we were happy with water, as we weren't hungry. We were rather interested in the menu, though, as none of us had been on earth for very long, and though we knew something of earth history, we were unfamiliar with modern American culture. The young lady, noticing us looking at the pictures of immaculate food, asked if she was paying for herself. Well, we looked at each other, realizing we had no money. It'd just slipped our minds. Somewhat annoyed, she resigned herself to the fact that she'd have to pay for herself and we awaited the arrival of her food. When it arrived, we were stunned to see that it looked nothing like the pictures of immaculately prepared food on the menu. Levi argued that something must be wrong. How could they so falsely mislead those who came seeking nourishment and sustenance from them? Joshua said, "What do you expect from humans?" Milo appeared disinterested. Levi waited until she'd finished her meal, surprised that she didn't seem that upset by the shoddy service and food she'd received. When they went up to watch her pay, Levi complained to the cashier that the food was totally unlike the pictures on the menu. She just stared at him, dumbfounded. He asked how they could serve such food knowing they were being so duplicitous. All she could think to do was call the manager. The manager had the same reaction, but Levi chastised him saying he could understand the waitresses, as they were just carrying out the policies laid out by management. He could not forgive such blatant lies, though, without restitution, so the manager gave him a handful of Denny's gift certificates. Feeling vindicated, Levi walked back out to the car, where everyone had been waiting for him. Joshua asked "What did he say?" Levi, holding out the gift certificates said "He gave me these as restitution." and proceeded to hand them to the young lady. She was terribly thrilled to get coupons for more Denny's food, and Levi was feeling terribly smug at correcting what he thought was a blantant charlantanism. Well, it was funnier as we gamed it. Kind of fits a Malakite of Gabriel, though. The book kind of infers that Gariel's angels are a wee bit unhinged themselves. Whadda you think? Rob. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 20:52:21 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Resonating Celestials (Re: Seraph resonance) > > Impudite's social status, etc.; and the Kyriotate could ATTEMPT > > TO TAKE OVER THE DEMON! (Well, that answers *that* question about > > celestials possessing other celestials...) > > Though, I actually would think a Kyriotate would have trouble > taking over a Demon of the same number of Forces...that would mean > concentrating the Kyrio all in one place. It's not specifically MENTIONED > under their Dissonance, but that's a clear step towards Shedim... How? Just because Shedim have lost their multiplicity doesn't mean that the multiplicity is a necessary part of being a Kyriotate. Now granted, a Kyriotate might not *like* it, but it isn't necessarily dissonant. I wonder - if a Kyriotate possesses a demon, picks a fight with it's body, and then leaves it, bloody and damaged, does he get Dissonance? By the book the answer is yes, but my feeling is otherwise. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "I seem to have forgotten what families are actually for...Families seem to be a form of SM relationships without safewords." - Neil Hudson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:28:52 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy David Edelstein wrote: > Dominic doesn't just "practice" Judgment, or "impose" Judgment, or > "create > his own standard of" Judgment...he IS Judgment. Just as Michael IS > War, and > Gabriel IS Fire. At least, the heavenly concept of them. Gabriel is God's idea of Fire - but Belial is what Lucifer thinks Fire should be. > They are not even remotely human in their thinking. Everything we say > and > guess about their motives and their behavior is at best an > approximation. Not human indeed - they just know us since our creation and try at their best to fake human behavior when on Earth... The real politics of Heaven must be something we couldn't even guess! But we discuss God's actions - why wouldn't we do the same with His Archangels?? :-) Andre ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 23:56:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> Dark In Nomine (was Dominic is not a Bad Guy) > > Hello, all. Consider this an official de-lurk, even though I joined the list > yesterday. ;) > > Oh, fair warning: I'm a big WOD goob. Glad to here it. Too few WOD goobs realise how good In Nomine could be for them. Welcome aboard! > > > Difficult - especially since some mages seem more powerful than angels. > > I rather thought that was the point. I mean, why did Lucifer rebel? One > account has it that he objected to the notion that humanity would be > placed above the angels. And if you note, only humans can be mages in the > WOD. > I know that they were to have more status than angels, and even, IIRC, that in the Koran, angels had to bow down to Adam and Eve, but I never thought there was any question of humans having more raw power than angels. To my mind, In Nomine relies a LOT on Angels and Demons being the most powerful things there are. When you put mages in the world it feels a little like dropping Superman into a Call of Cthulhu session - old tentacle-face just doesn't have the same *feel* anymore. Perhaps another example might be closer to your heart. Imagine if in the Mage campaign I am running (I am, for real), I introduce a new type of individual called a Schmage, much like a Mage but with the power to effortlessly negate any magick a Mage tries to produce. The whole atmosphere would be lost in one fell swoop. Even in an adventure with no Schmages in it, playing a Mage just wouldn't feel right purely through knowing that the Schmages are out there. That's how I feel about dropping Mage's into In Nomine. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:01:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy > >Angels don't seem to care about lovers or minor "sins" such as extramarital > >sex; they're more worried about the War as a whole. If a man and his > >girlfriend (for example) have sex, they won't care. > > Actually, Eli does care -- it falls under his word. > And despite his generally laid-back attitude, he might actually dislike > homosexuality slightly, but only because it doesn't create children. This would certainly make him more interesting. There is a danger in In Nomine to end up with a division between "Good" Archangels and "Bad" Archangels. Politics is much more interesting when there is something to be said for and against each. Giving Novalis an opposition to abortion might be interesting - as would giving her an opposition to marriage... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 02:52:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Dark In Nomine (was Dominic is not a Bad Guy) On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Gregory Littmann wrote: > > Oh, fair warning: I'm a big WOD goob. > > Glad to here it. Too few WOD goobs realise how good In Nomine could be > for them. Welcome aboard! I like to think of myself as omnivorous when it comes to gaming. If I see a concept I like, I shamelessly steal it to integrate into my games. Of course, I'm -still- hacking at Precedence's _Immortal: the Invisible War_, but it'll port over eventually. I can feel it. ;) > I know that they were to have more status than angels, and even, IIRC, > that in the Koran, angels had to bow down to Adam and Eve, but I never > thought there was any question of humans having more raw power than > angels. Raw power? Not at all. But take a look at the WOD games and IN, and you'll find they all revolve around a common theme: humans. You know, those non-powered folk who still manage to drive more powerful vampries into hiding, create the consensus of reality, and even manage to turn the tables on Celestials now and then. My point here is that while humanity is without raw power, it still has tremendous influence. Heck, a good case could be put forth for humanity having been the reason behind the war in heaven, and we weren't even created yet! How's that for influential? It's not what we can do....it's what we're -worth-. Let us not forget that, with the exception of the Bohdisattvas, human souls go to parts of Heaven inaccesible even by angels. I think that qualifies as being placed above angels, wouldn't you say? (I detect a tanget regarding "do angels have/need souls" approaching, but I'll save that for later.) > To my mind, In Nomine relies a LOT on Angels and Demons being the > most powerful things there are. When you put mages in the world it feels > a little like dropping Superman into a Call of Cthulhu session - old > tentacle-face just doesn't have the same *feel* anymore. Really? God and Satan don't out-power angels and demons? ;) I'm of the school that states "There's always something more powerful than you in the campaign world." I mean, if the PCs are the most powerful, then what's the point of playing? It all comes down to -application- of said power. Clearly, there's no point to having an NPC wipe the floor with a party, but I don't have to use mages for that. I can use a Superior to accomplish the exact same thing and still stay within the confines of the game. > Perhaps another > example might be closer to your heart. Imagine if in the Mage campaign I > am running (I am, for real), I introduce a new type of individual called a > Schmage, much like a Mage but with the power to effortlessly negate any > magick a Mage tries to produce. The whole atmosphere would be lost in one > fell swoop. Even in an adventure with no Schmages in it, playing a Mage > just wouldn't feel right purely through knowing that the Schmages are out > there. That's how I feel about dropping Mage's into In Nomine. This is what I call the Point-Defense NPC: a creature whose sole purpose is to screw with the party for no good reason except as a plot device. Now, if you made said Schmage incapable of preforming sphere magick, and was able only to counter it -- in effect, a magickal anti-aircraft gun -- then that would be a little more fair because balance is maintained. But I don't see where you're going with the notion that mages are UberPCs. Having played one, I can say that while they do have a great potential for game-altering power, it is counterbalanced by ridiculously low scores rolled against to achieve said effect. Angels, OTOH, don't have to worry about being permanently killed (except in Celestial combat), have higher starting scores, and can regain their 'cosmic currency' faster any other WOD critter. I think they're balanced, if used properly. A party of angels against a high-power Nephandus? Sounds like an epic struggle to cap off a climactic chronicle showcasing just how much Hell has corrupted humans, what Hell gets out of it, and why Heaven should be vigilant to guard against this sort of thing. - -- Casca (bertishg@db.erau.edu) Still working on that spiffy IN .sig. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 18:01:42 +1000 (EST) From: Peter Frederick Subject: IN> Celestial Advancement and Ambition (was Age of Celestials (was Items and Age)) Dear Walter and List Sorry to make this a one post a week discussion, but it's been a bit busy this side of the planet. At 12:04 PM 16/7/97 EDT, Walter Milliken wrote: >[peterf, on celestial "regression" to lower Forces:] >>The other way that I see it happening is that a Superior might decide that >>they like a particular Celestial "just so". A 12" dagger might be just the >>right size where a 14" one is a bit uncomfortable, in the same way a 10 >>Force servitor might be perfect for some jobs where a 14 Force one might be >>a bit unwieldly. If you had someone who is great at a particular job why >>would you ever want them to move on to somethingelse that they might not be >>good at, and force you to look for a replacement. > >I agree that this makes some sense, but it's going to be a little tricky >for PCs. Did the Superior just change his mind, and decide to let the >PC advance, or is the PC never going to get any rewards? And unless the >character himself is unambitious (possible for angels, unlikely for >demons), *he* may not being locked into a red-queen's-race situation. >---Walter yeah makes great background but isn't so great for gaming. I tend to think that a lot of Angels will fall into this "created for a purpose" category and therefore might just be kept at that level by their Superior. On the other hand we have the more freewilled and lateral types, like the PC's, who seem to be allowed to follow their own interpretation of their Superiors Policy. These Angels might well develop over time, the difficulty becomes at what rate? At about 3 points a mission and, say, 2 missions a year a reasonably hard working Celestial Spirit could go from 8 forces (not a full angel) to 18 (as much as the game measures) in about 15 years. And that's not counting additional rewards along the way for good service. OTOH that is also about 30 missions and if he doesn't spend point on anything else. In my mind 30 to 50 missions would be a fine campaign anyway and probably a lot of Earthside action for any Angel to see. Tha ambition thing is a bit tougher. Any good worker will want to maintain himself to better serve. However, self interest can easily become self-ishness and then Bang, you hit the bottom before you ewven knew you were falling. Thaking you for your indulgence, and patience. Yours Peter. Email to peterf@geko.net.au "Whoso loveth God truely must not expect to be loved by Him in return." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 04:46:50 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Dark In Nomine >>> I just hope that SJG doesn't decide that dark is dead. In Nomine can reach levels of dark that other games, even WoD games, simply can't reach. Evil is a pretty indespensible part of it, after all!<<< Yeah, well, some of us would rather NOT see In Nomine become "Celestials: The Angst'ing." ;) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 04:46:49 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Angels & Religion >>>In Nomine should clear up the whole question of how Angels relate to religion. The main book mentions who supports which, but mainly, it seems, in terms of wanting humans to believe one or the other. Do Angels pray? Do they ever go to church for any reason other than to watch over the congregation? Do they even *believe* the religions they support, or just think that they are useful tools? Do they think God loves them and cares about them as much as He cares about humans?<<< In Nomine isn't going to clear these things up because angels don't have definitive answers to most of those questions, any more than humans do. They DO have certain knowledge that God and Heaven exist, but beyond than that, the other stuff is a matter of faith for them too. So I'd say the answer to all of the above questions is "Yes." And "No." Depends on the angel. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:27:51 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Religion > Therefore, sure, there may be lots more angels then demons, and more > powerful angels at that. But how many angels are *active* on Earth, versus > how many demons? > > It'd seem that while angels outnumber demons all in all, demons may > outnumber angels on Earth. Which to me, seems more appropriate. It's generally accepted that there are more Demons than Angels, though of lesser power, on the average. No one has an official tally of the number of Demons though! - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:51:04 -0400 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: IN> Secrets of the Universe >According to the rules, Seraphim discover the Truth of any statement >if they get a 6 on their check digit. And yes, they can just go and >ask a bunch of people at random and the law of averages says they're >going to get the secrets of the universe real quick, according to the >rules. I think this comes down to a GM call sort of thing to stop such things. One possibility: "You divine the Truth of the Matter, and then, just as suddenly, you forget it. You here a voice in your head saying, 'Don't do that again.'" Perhaps God *wants* certain things to remain hidden. -Loki - -- Kirt A. Dankmyer --- Academic Computing Specialist http://www.wfu.edu/~dankmyka/ -- (910) 759-4202 -- PGP public key available. For the Snark _was_ a Boojum, you see. --Lewis Carroll ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:56:34 -0400 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy >This is the problem I have with Dominic. He claims to support >Christianity, yet--if you ask me--neither he *nor* Laurence seem to act >much like Christians. That's because they're angels, and not humans. Angels have their own moral code, their own resonance that was was set down by God, either directly or indirectly through a Superior. Christianity is a human religion, for humans. The angels support Christianity, *for humans*. Certainly humans should "judge not, lest they be judged". Who will judge humans who judge? God. And who does that job for God? Dominic. -Loki - -- Kirt A. Dankmyer --- Academic Computing Specialist http://www.wfu.edu/~dankmyka/ -- (910) 759-4202 -- PGP public key available. For the Snark _was_ a Boojum, you see. --Lewis Carroll ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:04:45 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy From: Highway Star >I don't know if I can agree with this at all. >it says specifically about angels having sex and even a hint of a homosexual relationship (it lists Blandine and Beleth as being lovers before the fall, however, both are refered to as female).< Gabriel still despite what you have said recites the Koran to Mohammed including a set of instructions that include the above. it may well be that the angels think they have different rules or since the various commandments, mostly early old testament and Koran that the Angels and or God have in In Nomine passed on to humanity have been since the fall that either God has Changed his mind since then or one of Beleth and Blandine Has changed which sex the use for day to day life in much the same way Dominic turns up as Dominique on occasions or Gob and the angels believe that Angels are a single sex species[ if you can change sex at will and reproduce by the sort of techniques that are implied in the rule book and discussed previously on this list then conventional morality is a bit irrelevant.] Note of course that angels are a seperate part of creation from humanity and operate under different restrains than humanity. Not to Mention that the angels seemed to have no concept of what sin was before the fall and Beleth fell right along with Lucifer rather than later. Either way the message the angels have spoken says that Homosexuality, Greed and Sloth among other things are Sin. So unless the Reson Dominic is out to get Gabriel is for putting words into Gods mouth. Yves and God want Humanity to believe that Homosexual intercourse, premarital sex, crushing mens testicles in fights, having more than four wives and keeping slaves for more than seven years are sins. So the angels care about them. > If the man cheats on his wife with an old girlfriend then they wil< That is them wanting you to be chaste. Besides the section you are objecting to was meant as slightly tongue in check, , which was why there was a disclamer attacked to that post claiming irony and sarcasm but it is no less a valid view that angels do not like sin. God personnaly and through Gabriel has give man a list of things which should be considered for humans sin. Neither God nor Gabriel said angels are restricted by that list. Dominic may have. Adam Canning Dahak@Compuserve.Com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:04:37 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Back to celestial populations again.... >But note that there's a bug difference between causing misery and "getting" a soul. Get an unjust law passed, and you cause misery to lots of people, but in that misery many of them may be roused from moral numbness by the new sense of outraged injustice. < Good Omens has both with Hastur being unable to understand why Crowley spends his time tying up the lond mobile phone system and crowley believing that individually tempting a vicar is an inefficient waste of time. Crowley is a past master at leveragefor example turning the M25 into a Deathrune/Prayerwheel by rearanging its route slightly. This however did involve him breaking into offices all over the south of England and running around in a field one night moving poles which just goes to show that even the demons that are attracked to cities go out and do things in strange, remote or mundane locations to in classic illuminati manner affect things which might seem to have little relationship i.e. moving 4 poles in a field in the night makes the populatiobn of London miserable and more prone to sin. It should be pointed out that in most cases in In Nomine Hum,ans can only be damned by thier own actions. so encouraging them on mass to damn them selves i.e by making icons of such people as Billy Graham, Margret Thatcher, Adolf Hitler, Pol Pot, Gun's and Roses, and General Swachnegger. By making large quantaties of people miserable i.e. the World Bank, jamming the internet, being offensive on mailing lists, sending people chain letters, inventing Telesales etc. Personal Attention is most likely for those who have a major fate or destiny since which those people achieve will influence many other people. Not that the demons won't screw someones life up if they bump into them but that seems to be more light relaxation / proving you have a certain craftsfiendship and may well be a talent that gets you promoted to tempting influential people. For example it may not be obvious that one of the citizens in Sleepytown Middle America is the mother of one of the programmers of the World Bank computer system. But any demon who cannot see the potential uses for knowing that information should be assigned to Malakim detection duties immediately [ ie First Demon "Fang go over there and murder some school children will you, Ill meet you in the park later",Second Demon "Yeah Bos." Skrunch squish, First demon watches for fifteen minutes if Fangs is still alive then there are no malakim in the vehcinity.] Some demons especially the older or higher rankers are likely to pride them selves on the personnal touch. Others like Hagendi are going to be more for mass effects. [Hagendi "I want Souls, Feed me more Souls" Minion " Where from Master Hagendi "Tastee Ghoul?" Minion " We haven't got that past Congress yet", Hagendi "Well start an African Famine then Fool before I eat you."] Vapula of course prefers television advertising campaigns. [Dallas, Dynasty, Hill Street Blues, Only Fools and Horses, The New Statesman, Teletubbies, Devilman, Melrose Place, Rosanne, The Price is Right, Oprah, and his favourite CNN Rolling News bullitins:- See lots of misery from around the world and know the American Government is searching for ways to make things worse.] Average Celestial Population doesn't really matter if you want lots of angels and demons in a small town go with it. after all once one side sets up a tether the other hast to to keep watch on the first. The fact that Julet Harbinger who is now Mother Superion of the Warrior Nuns grew up and left twenty years ago may not be noticed by the Demons who set up a base to oppose whatever the Angels where up to in town and the angels will not leave since as far as they can tell the demons have an interest in that little town so they have to be opposed. The demons being demons will find things to play with and the angels are if they are like any of the players I know likely to assume that there is some underlying plot the demons are working on. It may be that there is or it may be just the demons finding ways to aquire brownie points to make up for not finding out what the Angels are up to. This will not happen every where but since for most campaigns the players will be at home in a single base city/town then you only need this escallation to have happend a few times for the base city to have had it happen. The Scenario Feast of Blades is of course supposed to be a lead in for new players to get the hang of the game or to provide a distraction from the parties normal cold war against the local demons. Adam Canning Dahak@Compuserve.Com "I will build an empire and human suffering shall be its foundation and human blood it's mortar!" Lando/Mason Balseraph of Vapula ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #256 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.