From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Jul 28 19:58:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA21683 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 19:58:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA15829 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:33:02 -0500 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:33:02 -0500 Message-Id: <199707282233.RAA15829@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #265 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, July 28 1997 Volume 01 : Number 265 In this digest: Re: IN> Malakim of Creation Re: IN>Paradox Angels Re: IN> Omnipotent God = No Challenge? Re: IN> A small "Immortals" tangent Re: IN> Non-Omnipotent God Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy Re: IN> Aquinas, Omnipotence, and the Impossible IN> Discord IN> Questions about Lilim IN> Asmodeus Hit Squads Re: IN> Making a living. Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy Re: IN> Graduations, Saints, and "Night Music"... Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy Re: IN>Paradox Angels Re: IN>Looking for Demons.... Re: IN> Omnipotent God = No Challenge? Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy Re: IN> Non-Omnipotent God Re: IN> Non-Omnipotent God Re: IN> Dark In Nomine (was Dominic is not a Bad Guy) Re: IN> Playing Dead Re: IN> Malakim of Creation Re: IN>Paradox Angels Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy Re: IN> A small "Immortals" tangent Re: IN> Non-Omnipotent God Re: IN>Paradox Angels Re: re IN> Making a living Re: IN> Questions about Lilim IN> Ow.... Re: IN> Malakim of Creation Re: IN> Malakim of Creation ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 09:25:53 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Malakim of Creation On Jul 25, 8:09pm, Kingsley Lintz wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Malakim of Creation > > > For the suicidal angel, a tiny amount of antimatter can really > > ruin a demon's day... > Oog...I don't know that I'd consider antimatter `simple'. (I > realize that technically it's as simple as any regular matter, but I don't > think an Attunement geared toward matter would reasonably construe it as > such..) > Besides; granting that Eli doesn't officially do it, I'd suggest > that creating antimatter with one of his Attunements would be Dissonant... > (Or at least one of the few ways to seriously annoy him. Especially for > Malakim, there's a big difference between corporeally suicidal and REALLY > suicidal that needs to be considered here..) Since anti-matter seems to be against the local rules of the Symphony (If God wanted things made of antimatter, he would have CREATED them that way, by gum!), a gamemaster can rule against it with a calm heart. Or it can be a brand new servitor attunement and it makes a _minute_ quantity. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:01:28 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN>Paradox Angels Concerning the name of the Paradox Angel: Kurt? (after Goedel, who showed that no formal system is complete) Jude? (after St. Jude, patron saint of lost causes) Eris? (Greek for Discord, the whimsical patron goddess of the Discordians) Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 09:41:45 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Omnipotent God = No Challenge? An idea that I haven't heard put forth is along the lines of 'The journey is the destination'. The Symphony is a work of art (whether strictly plotted or with a lot of improvisation is up to you). Eventually, perhaps, it will reach a creshendo and end... who knows? Altenately we have God-as-Builder. God _can_ do anything, but some things are more convoluted than others. So He has some final product in mind but the _only_ way to do it is by having a Symphony to eventually produce it. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:17:52 -0400 (EDT) From: IQJason@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> A small "Immortals" tangent "There is a description of sorts in Dark Ages Companion - but it's sooo unconvincingly...! Actually, it a description of Hell and Demons... It doesn't appeal me, anyway." Part of the reason for that is because the Vampires in the WoD are the most spiritually "blind" of the Awakened. Most of what's described there are actually Banes of various varieties. Personaly, I like the Angelics/Demonics from Wraith. But, then again, I like most of Wraith. :) yours, - -J ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:31:35 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Non-Omnipotent God On the objection that you kill dramatic tension if you KNOW God & Co. will win-- Stacy has already pointed out there are other dramatic tensions besides the outcome of the final conflict, and that "winning" is not so simple for God. Just as an illustration, is there no dramatic tension in an RPG set in World War Two, just because, as an historical game, the winners and losers are pre-determined? Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:08:52 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy Casca wrote: > There is one problem with this assumption: if God didn't create morality, > then who did? God in generally credited with having created all of > Creation, and I believe concepts of morality fit under that purview. > Heck, God even dictates morality from (Adam's) day one: "Don't eat of the > Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil." > > So either God created morality, or there's at least one thing whose > existence predates God -- which limits God's power. "Morality" is an abstract concept. You could get very heavy metaphysical arguments both ways about whether abstract concepts have the the kind of existence (or any existence at all) that allows them to be created or destroyed or have anything else "happen" to them. The concept of moral goodness can be NEITHER created NOR existing independent of God if it is one of God's own aspects. This is the out I would take. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 09:50:55 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Aquinas, Omnipotence, and the Impossible > Since no amount of raw power can make a logical impossibility possible, I > side with St. Thomas in saying that it is no insult to God's omnipotence to > say He cannot do the logically impossible. I agree whole-heartedly with the argument. Of course, sometimes people have a problem differentiating between the two concepts. (I had the damnedest time trying to convince someone that "The car is blue" and "I think the car is blue" are two different statements that can have two different truth values. It's kinda shocking that even that simple level of abstraction is beyond _anyone_ at all.) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:15:23 -0400 (EDT) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: IN> Discord Okay, one more question. But the third is a quicky. I'm having trouble determining how one is supposed to "notice" if someone has Discord. Now, Corporeal discord is like wearing a badge that says, "Hi, my name is Joe, I'm a celestial and I've been BAD." You can't miss big discolored splotches. And even the ethereal discord shows up after a fashion - paranoia, anger, etc. An observer can pick up that so and so is action kind of funky. But how in the world does someone detect Celestial Discord. Under the servants of Asmodeus, that's one of the qualifiers for being hunted - the celestial in question has picked up Celestial Discord and needs to be eliminated. It's the worst (or the best, I guess, if you're 1/2 way to redemption), but how do they KNOW? Does Merciful show up on your celestial form like a giant peace sign on your back? Does lustful show up in some more entertaining ways? So it doesn't say. I can't figure out how to handle this, and I need to. Any help is appreciated. Emily K. Dresner, M.S.Eng. Computer Systems Consultant III Medical Center Information Technology Desktop Applications Team ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 09:49:10 -0400 (EDT) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: IN> Questions about Lilim Alright, I'm about to be two whole entire sessions into my campaign (woo hoo!), and I was working on back story. I have tons of questions now, and I'm gonna break them up over a few emails.... ***************************************************************************** So Lilim end up being my favorite sort of celestial. Sue me. They're cool. I'm reading through the sourcebook, and I come across this line, "To invoke a resonance, a celestial must make a d666 roll equal to his Perception (for angels and Lilim)..." Does this mean that Lilim perceive the Symphony the same way Angels do, and don't exist in their own little selfish Symphonies? So I decided, for my purposes, that the answer to this was a YES, but I started wondering, where do Lilim come from? Yeah, it says that Lilith creates them, but how? I get to thinking (very dangerous) about where Lilim come from, what's going on up inside their heads, and where are they headed. ************************************************************************* I started thinking about two things. The first comes from a reference from the Dictionary of Angels, where Lilith is the mother of Cain, and the second is from the sourcebook where it references the Sisterhood of Lilith - - and comes from some reading online. Reading is bad for me... ************************************************************************ The first makes me wonder where Lilim actually come from, and if it is possible that the Lilim themselves are actually physical children of Lilith by various Demon Princes/Archangels/High Ranking Demons/High Ranking Angels. It's made clear that the Lilim are not actually demons, per se, and they aren't angels. They're celestials of a completely different sort. They're Children of Lilith. But Lilith is shown not just as a figurehead of dark sexuality and desire, and of female rebellion, but also a mother figure in the darkness. It makes sense. Lilith has another child once every so often when she gets the motherly urge. Maybe her pregnancy time is very short, or normal, or very long. And she has an unlimited to the end of time pass to Vic Tanny to keep her figure. :) The child is born, a 7 force celestial, and during some sort of christening, is laden with the 9 geas as part of a ritual. The child grows up learning from Lilith, and when the time comes (ie, it's grown into a 9 force celestial), Lilith hands the child over to either her father or the highest bidder in Hell, and things run from there. Lilim are probably passed from Demon Prince to Demon Prince over time as the Geas are worked off and others come to being. It would also explain why the Lilim would tend to be interred to the more fast and loose Demon Princes (Andre, Nybbas, etc.) and less with the nastier ones (Belial, Saminga). Lilim would probably spend most of their assignments on the Earth. They're really built to be around humans anyways. You can't seduce in Hell, ya know. Overall, this would make Cain the first Lilim, and if you think about it, is it Caina? Things get kind of confusing.... ************************************************************************** Which brings me to a second point, the Sisterhood. So the Lilim is tossed out of the nest, handed to Andrealphus, and put to work seducing major heads of state. Not an entirely bad job, really, if you think about it. It's fun, and you get to eat alot of really good food. But it makes you think that Andre should be driving a pimpmobile and wearing pink leisure suits. "Get out there and shake it, baby!" Is the Lilim then cut off from her Sisters? Probably not. I'm wondering if anyone else has built some sort of Sisterhood network. The general idea is that a Lilim, any Lilim wants to eventually get out of being an indentured whore to the Demon Prince of the Week, and earn their own keep with their own Geas. So there's a network of Lilim, all of them, and they can, somehow identify each other as Lilim: signs, hand signals, grabs on the ass, etc. And the idea is that someone knows someone who knows someone, and they work as a support network for each other to help them out of scrapes, get them in touch with better Superiors, hide them when they've had enough from the legions of Asmodeus, get you in touch with Mama Lilith, whathaveyou. And maybe with some real work, someone will know someone who worked off their Geas, and are willing to help the young Lilim work through theirs without picking up any more on the way. It could be an interesting adventure for the Lilim PC in your home. **************************************************************************** Anyways, if someone has done some work on this, some feedback would be greatly appreciated. ***************************************************************************** Emily K. Dresner, M.S.Eng. Computer Systems Consultant III Medical Center Information Technology Desktop Applications Team ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:10:36 -0400 (EDT) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: IN> Asmodeus Hit Squads I have a second question, now... ************************************************************************* I've been tripping. I remember the old Robotech television anime series, actually three stand alone series, dubbed, rewritten, and spliced together for American audiences. The second generation, "Southern Cross", had the Masters of Protoculture and the aliens always came in triumervants. I'm thinking of that because, well, because I am. ************************************************************************* According to Mr. Rulebook, my oddly organized pal, under Dominic the servants move in Triads in the Divine Inquisition. This is a Seraph, a Cherub, and a Miscellanious. They are Judge, Jury, and Executioner, and their sentances are absolute. They chase down the guilty, persecute them, and end it in one swift move. So how are Asmodeus Hit Squads organized? I think it's fair that Asmodeus mirrors Dominic, not only in purpose, but in methodology. A triad would mean you have three demons watching each other all of the time to make sure none of them steps out of line, who have proven themselves in loyalty one way or another. So, I came up with: The INQUISITOR: A Balseraph of some standing, probably masquerading as a District Attorney. (I don't see DA's as Impudites, sorry. That requires compassion. Imps would make create Slip and Fall small claims ambulance chasers, but wouldn't do to be putting the Innocent away on circumstantial evidence.) The Balseraph would do the questioning, probably have the Dissonance Binding attunement, and would levy sentance. Generally the superior of the three. The STALKER: A Djinn, also of some standing, probably a cop of some sort. He has tracking, survival, and of course is there to attune himself to the victim, find him, and bring him back. A bruiser of some quantity, heavy on combat and lower on mental skills. The EXECUTIONER: I was torn, but eventually decided on a Calabite for pure destructive power. His job is to carry out the sentance. Period. I made mine have the role of a Meat Butcher, just for panache'. Basically, the exact same as the Dominic triads, but with much darker, bloodier purpose. They aren't interested in trying the victim and deciding on a verdict by majority vote. That sentance is already handed down from Asmodeus. The idea is to Find, Repent, and Pay for Crimes, since they are already "guilty". Any comments? Thanks. Emily K. Dresner, M.S.Eng. Computer Systems Consultant III Medical Center Information Technology Desktop Applications Team ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 09:30:47 CDT From: Oscar Rodriguez Subject: Re: IN> Making a living. Peter asked: >How much do other GM's make their Players justify their characters >lifestyles by having the character work for a living? I forgot where it was, but in the main book there was something that said that the characters are provided a moderate lifestyle. How you play it is up to you. I try to force each of my players to have some role to help justify, but not all. I have a Malakim of War player who lives in the projects in Chicago. He chose not to take a role. Not the best lifestyle, but hey... Peter continued: >Is it reasonable to have a Superior say "For this mission I give you this >Holy Gun to slay the Demon and this briefcase of unmarked nonsequential >$20's to cover expenses." > >Why hasn't Marc set up an international bank with universal ATM and EFPOST >facilities to bankroll Divine operations a la Matt Wagner's MAGE? I think anything is possibe, as long as there is story. My Ofanim of the Wind player has a role as a car thief. He plays it well, he buys guns off the street with the money he makes and has a trunk full of guns. (Better in his trunk than on the streets) He probably earns money with the cars, but stays in random hotels. He always gets a delivery where he's staying, money for the room and any specific instructions for him. We considered a credit card that was from Divine Bank, or something equally cheesy, with the idea that if it too outrageous I could decline the card at anytime. I don't feel money should be an issue, so I don't make it one. They've got more important things to do. Then again I don't have anyone interested in Marc. Oscar ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 09:47:17 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, tom timberlake wrote: > > This, of course, brings up the question: can God gain Dissonance? And if > > so, who's gonna call him on it? ;) > > > > -- Casca > > (bertishg@db.erau.edu) > > I am happy to say:NOT I! I don't think the house is insured against > multiple direct-hit lightning strikes! I will. I allways make sure I have insurance against acts of gods. Having worked with multiple metaphisists/psychic advisors, and being a family witch, it's a REAL good idea. ;-) Shadowcat ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:00:52 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, David Edelstein wrote: > >>>Marriage I could see, to an extent...there are too many herbal > abortificants, though.<<< > > There are herbal drugs and poisons too....Novalis isn't automatically in > favor of every purpose to which a plant can be put. Why not? She would use the herbal drugs for healing the sick, or recreation, and the poisons to kill off demons, and things that hurt her plants. Shadowcat ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:18:32 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Graduations, Saints, and "Night Music"... On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, David.Evans wrote: > Heh. Wouldn't we *ALL*??? Which brings me on to ask the question on > everybody's lips; "When's Night Music coming out?" I saw it in a local gaming shop this morning, so it is out NOW! Shadowcat ******************************************************************************** There is no Saint with out a past ; and no Sinner with out a future ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:09:42 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, John Dye wrote: > Thomas Davidson wrote: > > > > On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Shadowcat wrote: > > > > > > > > >This is the problem I have with Dominic. He claims to support > > > >Christianity, yet--if you ask me--neither he *nor* Laurence seem to act > > > >much like Christians. > > > > > > Then again, a hell of a lot of Christian, aren't very Christian, > > > or as my Grandmother used to say "Cold as a Christian's heart" and she was > > > brought up in a SERIOUS christian household > > > > > As was I, come to think of it... perhaps that's why I shun Christianity? > > > > Perhaps we can keep the personal religious commentary to a minimum? > Otherwise this list will bog down like it did in the beginning. I didn't say that all Christians are like this, just some. As a matter of fact a lot of my friends are. I'm wasn't saying it was wrong, just not right for me, or atleast not the version put forth by most 20th century followers. Shadowcat ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:47:02 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN>Paradox Angels On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, Casca wrote: > Ouch. An Archangel of Paradox.....I love it. Gonna have to write this one up. > Can anyone help suggest a name? Pixel. (read "The Cat Who Walked Through Walls") Shadowcat ******************************************************************************** "The cat is the only animal with out visable means of support who still manages to find a living in the city." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 12:36:47 -0500 (EST) From: Kevin Meares Subject: Re: IN>Looking for Demons.... Not sure a Lilim maybe. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:55:55 -0400 From: Highway Star Subject: Re: IN> Omnipotent God = No Challenge? > Altenately we have God-as-Builder. God _can_ do >anything, but some things are more convoluted than others. >So He has some final product in mind but the _only_ way to >do it is by having a Symphony to eventually produce it. I almost consider the Symphony as a hobby of God. He built it. He's watching it. Anytime He wants He can step in and adjust it to be what He wants it to be. However, that wouldn't be the purpose of building it. His purpose of building it is to let it run, to see what will happen. If it starts to get too far out of line, i.e., the demons miraculously (no pun intended) kick the angels' asses and start taking over completely, then He might step in. Otherwise, He is content to let it run. You could even throw In Nomine into a cyberpunkish game - for example, let God do an experiment, and see what happens when he recalls the majority of angels to Earth, and it degenerates into a "cyberpunk" type world, so God sends the angels back down to make things right. How many street ronin and corporate execs would want to see a resurgence of angelic activity? Particularly the ones with a more, ahem, *personal* relationship with Hell?:) I'm getting evil ideas faster and faster... SeanMike - -- I'm locked and loaded, and you'll have to pay - Oderus I'm too high to type right now. - Balsac, the Jaws of Death Nothing is more offensive then the truth. - The Heretic Are you a real person or do you just play one on TV? - Oderus ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 12:48:22 -0500 (EST) From: Kevin Meares Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy Heres an idea. Maybe Satan created morality. This sounds odd but think about it good is defined by what it is not(eviL) and since the devil is the fount of evil... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 12:44:14 -0500 (EST) From: Kevin Meares Subject: Re: IN> Non-Omnipotent God Heres a thought out of the movie "Micheal." I agree that God can not directly interfere in the course of history because to do so violates free will. But he can send angels to perform small miricales of varying sorts. Also Satan operates under no such restriction and as such God can interfere in his plans on earthh because free will has already been compromised and it becomes necissary to act to return it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:05:12 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> Non-Omnipotent God Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Just as an illustration, is there no dramatic tension in an RPG > set in World War Two, just because, as an historical game, the winners > > and losers are pre-determined? Nicely put. And accurate, BTW... After all, God *knows* the outcome of the War. He's not only omniscient, Time has no meaning for him also. Andre ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 12:49:35 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> Dark In Nomine (was Dominic is not a Bad Guy) Gregory Littmann wrote: > If Angels outclass Mages by being immune to them (being the servants > of > the real one and only author of reality and everything) that you could > add > mages and keep a very interesting In Nomine campaign. But that's a > cross-over that favours one of the elements pretty heavily. There's > not > really much left that can be called Mage when reality isn't > subjective. But who said reality wouldn't still be subjective that way??? You see, ordinary people shape reality - and that's ok with God, that's what he created them for. People are part of the Symphony. Even Mages are - they shape reality in a very particular way, and it's no big deal. At least, unless you stop being subjective and starts to be too objective, too much, too fast. That's because Mages face Paradox Angels. The Symphony is shaped , all right, but it has a pace - don't try to hasten it. That's the message. Andre ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:22:59 -0400 From: John Dye Subject: Re: IN> Playing Dead Peter Frederick wrote: > > Dear List > > Since an Celestial doesn't have to breath and has high resistance to > enviornmental factors like heat and cold, How easy is it for a Celestial to > fake death? > > Will roll to lower pulse and heartbeat to practically nil then wait for your > Vessel to cool down? Could a Kyrio do this considering that their Host is > only temporarily Celestial. Your base argument is flawed. Breathing is one of the few things angels HAVE to do. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:26:34 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Malakim of Creation On Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:53:08, Jeff Miller wrote: >Is sodium metal a simple substance? How about phospherous? They are both elements, it don't get no simpler. Shadowcat P.S. let's not get into quarks O.K.? ()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()() There is no Saint with out a past ; and no Sinner with out a future ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:12:06 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN>Paradox Angels Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Concerning the name of the Paradox Angel: > > Kurt? (after Goedel, who showed that no formal system is complete) > > Jude? (after St. Jude, patron saint of lost causes) > > Eris? (Greek for Discord, the whimsical patron goddess of the > Discordians) I don't know... I was going for Erwin, after Schroedinger, but I think Zeno is so much...you know...classic. I guess I'll stick by Zeno. Andre ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:17:05 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy Hermes Trismegistus wrote: > God - Omnipotent Servitor of God > > Could create a nasty feedback loop if the Demon of Beaurocracy ever > got him > with a "Refer this to your Supervisor" form. :) > "Um, just a moment, I'll have to just consult with myself on this... > Oh damn, > I'm in a meeting. I'll call you back." Rather esquizofrenic, isn't it?? OTOH, it's quite reasonable... God must have some psichological quircks after all... Maybe those are His discords... Andre > > > Kurt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:30:46 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> A small "Immortals" tangent IQJason@aol.com wrote: > Personaly, I like the Angelics/Demonics > from Wraith. But, then again, I like most of Wraith. :) The Angelics were what I liked the most, but it's said they are not really Angels... Just (IN speaking) ethereal spirits pretending to be angels. Andre ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:21:38 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> Non-Omnipotent God Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > In all three cases, it is hard to see a reason why God would even > have created the angels. And if he is unwilling to interfere because > it is an experiment, then why does he allow angels or devils to > interfere? Or, if the devils exist to tempt humans, ala Job, then > why the angels. I think Angels were God's first experiment - in the Celestial Plane. They were so much like Himself, so God decided to repeat it - now in the Corporeal Plane. Maybe He even tried in the Ethereal first and *then* went for the Corporeal... Maybe He created every plane when He created it's inhabitants for His experiments... Andre ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:47:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Davidson Subject: Re: IN>Paradox Angels On Mon, 28 Jul 1997, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Concerning the name of the Paradox Angel: > > Kurt? (after Goedel, who showed that no formal system is complete) > > Jude? (after St. Jude, patron saint of lost causes) > > Eris? (Greek for Discord, the whimsical patron goddess of the > Discordians) > Ummm, wouldn't Eris be more appropriate as a Demon Prince? Remember, before she went off to console herself with a hot dog :-) she caused the First War. (Read _Principia_Discordia_ for a fun read--it's published by Steve Jackson Games). Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us - -------------------- Don't panic! I have a new .sig! - -------------------- Instruction Booklet for this message: STEP 1: Open mouth. STEP 2: Insert foot. STEP 3: Chew vigorously. STEP 4: Repeat as needed. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 12:04:23 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: re IN> Making a living > >Kingsly Lint replied > > Maybe for a specific, very important mission, they might toss in > >cash...MOST of the Superiors (Marc as an obvious exception) I don't see > >even thinking about expenses, however. (After all, what DO they need to > I can see a couple of hitches with this. First Superiors don;t have roles > either, why should they supply their servitors with one? Superiors know a Most Superiors don't regularly bother with Vessels, artifacts, skills, or mortal servants, either, but they semi-regularly supply their Servitors with those...it's just a question of different needs. The Superiors happen to be ABOVE that; it's like the CEO with the mainframe issuing his workers dumb terminals. He needs the mainframe, they can get by with dumb terminals. > lot about stuff, even if they chose not to use it, like Jordi with any > technology or David with ranged weapons. I don't actually think Jordi DOES know that much about technology, himself. Some of his Servitors have certainly learned how to take it apart, but...it's just not a concern of his. > you what ever they think you need to complete a mission. Why would they > send you out under prepared given the information they had to hand? Several reasons. 1) You should BE prepared; they gave you a Vessel, that nice Role which you were supposed to be getting your OWN money, all in proper accordance with the Symphony, with, and let's not forget about that flaming sword you were issued, hm? 2) You're a favored servant, granted a much-coveted (*ahem*) job...if you're NOT resourceful enough to handle it, -ANY- of the Superiors can darned well find someone who is. They have better things to do, on the whole, than plan out every step of your mission and make sure things go perfectly...if they were going to do THAT, they wouldn't need YOU. > make up your won mind about Demon Princes :) Although this might mean that There's always the Paranoia model...give 'em whatever happens to be at hand that you wanted to get rid of anyway.. > >I wrote > >> Why hasn't Marc set up an international bank with universal ATM and EFPOST > >> facilities to bankroll Divine operations a la Matt Wagner's MAGE? > >Kingsly replied > > Too much mucking about with the Symphony. I expect they > >occasionally have to STOP Vapula and Nybbas from setting things like that > >up... > I can't see too much direct disprution to the Symphony. However you Are you kidding? The money either has to be actually created (which will be setting off little Essence blips every time one of these is accessed), or diverted. If it's diverted, you're not only suddenly working more in Valefor's domain (something I don't THINK Marc wants to get too mixed up in), but you're also risking being tracked not just by Demonics but also by mortal organizations...who may not be much threat to an Archangel, but they can sure get annoying, especially when the Demonics catch on and start backing them up. And in *EITHER* case, if we assume one Angel per 100,000 people (which I think had been the final call) drawing an average of, say, $250 a month (figuring it's a worldwide spread; many of Jordi's won't be drawing any, while those living in Manhattan have rent to pay)...well, we're talking about the sudden creation and/or random fluctuation of...glargh. I don't have time to do the math this second, but massive gobs of money. The kind of thing even governments would notice, and those operate on a scale beyond multinational corporations... And if Marc is actually using something like the old `fairy cash' that turns to dross at midnight, it gets even worse...firstly by being even more dishonest, and secondly by being even more disruptive. (Suddenly you're buying things, sucking them out of the economy, and leaving people with less money than they thought they had...AFTER they've already rung up taxes on it..) Suffice to say that under *ANY* model entailing more than about 6 Celestials scattered across the continent, if Marc just had something set up so Angels can draw whatever money they need at will (even if they only take what they NEED), the concept of economy would be shot within, at best, a couple years. *I*'d call that mucking about with the Symphony. > because if he controls too much it take the "Trade" out of the transactions. > I think that Marc really dislikes monopolists. Which, of course, is another point. He's the Archangel of Trade, not The Archangel of Free Cash. If anyone approached him on it, I think he'd point out that the whole system is based on the idea that people *WORK* for their rewards. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:41:44 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Questions about Lilim > I'm reading through the sourcebook, and I come across this line, "To > invoke a resonance, a celestial must make a d666 roll equal to his > Perception (for angels and Lilim)..." Does this mean that Lilim perceive > the Symphony the same way Angels do, and don't exist in their own little > selfish Symphonies? Not, really. The Resonances were unfortunately labeled as Angelic and Demonic. Better to call them 'Perception based' and 'Will based'. It turns out that MOST Demonic resonances happen to be Will-based and MOST angelic resonances are Perception-based, but there are exceptions. > The first makes me wonder where Lilim actually come from, and if it is > possible that the Lilim themselves are actually physical children of > Lilith by various Demon Princes/Archangels/High Ranking Demons/High > Ranking Angels. It's made clear that the Lilim are not actually demons, > per se, and they aren't angels. They're celestials of a completely > different sort. They're Children of Lilith. But Lilith is shown not just > as a figurehead of dark sexuality and desire, and of female rebellion, but > also a mother figure in the darkness. Lilim _are_ demons. Lilith uses the dark coin of hell (Essence/Forces gotten from numerous unsavory sources) in her work and one of the things she does is create Lilim. Lilith just happens to be the only one who can make Lilim. > Lilim would probably spend most of their assignments on the Earth. > They're really built to be around humans anyways. You can't seduce in > Hell, ya know. Ah but you can! Lilim are _very_ good at what they do! ;) You are right, however, that most Lilim serve on Earth. Lilim start with more forces than the average Demon (Demons can have as low as 7 forces) and do their best work among the weak-willed humanity. > Is the Lilim then cut off from her Sisters? Probably not. I'm wondering > if anyone else has built some sort of Sisterhood network. Lilim _love_ to trade favors... Geasa are both their job and their main leisure activity. As a Band, they tend to keep their ears open for opportunities to do favors and pay them off which means they need to talk to _someone_. And, of course, Lilim tend to trust each other more than your typical Band! Your sisterhood network sounds like a neat idea... I bet you there is a _massive_ bulletin board hanging on a wall somewhere in Lilith's domain just for this. Of course with all this high tech stuff around, many might use telephones and email! ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:36:54 -0500 (CDT) From: Martin Leslie Leuschen Subject: IN> Ow.... My SO just sent me a horrible pun.... Is the primary roll of IN GMs `Exercising Demons'? ..... Regards, Martin Leuschen martinl@rice.edu Kyrio of Superiors ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 15:51 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Malakim of Creation > Besides; granting that Eli doesn't officially do it, I'd suggest >that creating antimatter with one of his Attunements would be Dissonant... I don't know that it's any more dissonant than creating 1/10 oz of radium, or even a couple cubic feet of hydrogen gas. And anti-protons and positrons are no more unnatural in this universe than "normal" matter, just a lot rarer.... Don't forget also, that Eli's Word includes some destructive aspects, as well as constructive ones (according to the text as I recall it). - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 15:56 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Malakim of Creation >> >>Wood would be Novalis' domain. >> > >> > This isn't *Mage*. Besides look at those attunements a bit >> >harder. One of them allows the servant of Eli to change things into >> >organic or even living substances. >> >> But that's a different attunement. The creation one allows creation of >> *simple* substances. Wood is not simple, just natural. > >Simple as in no mechanical parts, I think. I've been interpreting the Abracadabra attunement as being limited to mostly inorganic substances and some simple organics (I might allow methane and CO2, for example). - ---Walter ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #265 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.