From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Jul 29 04:24:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA14112 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 04:24:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA12857 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 02:41:44 -0500 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 02:41:44 -0500 Message-Id: <199707290741.CAA12857@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #266 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, July 29 1997 Volume 01 : Number 266 In this digest: Re: IN> Graduations, Saints, and "Night Music"... Re: IN> Asmodeus Hit Squads Re: IN> Non-Omnipotent God IN> Non-Omnipotent God Re: IN> Malakim of Creation Re: IN>Paradox Angels Re: IN> Malakim of Creation Re: IN> A small "Immortals" tangent (was Dark In Nomine) Re: IN> Questions about Lilim Re: IN>Paradox Angels Re: IN> Redeeming Shedim (Was: Dark In Nomine) Re: IN> Discord Re: IN> Angels & Religion Re: IN> Playing Dead Novalis stuff (Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy) Re: IN> Asmodeus Hit Squads Re: IN> Questions about Lilim Re: IN> Questions about Lilim RE: IN>Paradox Angels RE: IN> Asmodeus Hit Squads Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy Re: IN>Paradox Angels RE: IN> Asmodeus Hit Squads Re: IN> Angels & Religion ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 21:05:34 +0100 () From: "David.Evans" Subject: Re: IN> Graduations, Saints, and "Night Music"... Shadowcat proclaimeth:- > > On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, David.Evans wrote: > > > Heh. Wouldn't we *ALL*??? Which brings me on to ask the question on > > everybody's lips; "When's Night Music coming out?" > > I saw it in a local gaming shop this morning, so it is out NOW! A bubh??? Tell I just dreamed this message! Define "local" as you meant it though; I'm residing in that hiving metropolis known as Glasgow, in Scotland (you know, that bit to the north of London). So, I suppose I'll expect it here, say, Wednesday or Thursday? Your guess is as good as mine, methinks. Fnord. (Oops, wrong list :) Be seeing you... David. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:27:32 -0700 (PDT) From: nightgaunt@earthlink.net (Alexander Shearer) Subject: Re: IN> Asmodeus Hit Squads >The EXECUTIONER: I was torn, but eventually decided on a Calabite for pure >destructive power. His job is to carry out the sentance. Period. I made >mine have the role of a Meat Butcher, just for panache'. Anyone else here ever read the comic Armed and Dangerous? The first issue (the only one I've read) features a mob guy hacking a person down into disposable chunks (including a pizza break in the middle). It actually isn't that visually graffic, but it carries the message through regardless. The guy ends up in the dryers of a laundromat he used to own. (Just another tip for the Calabite hint book.) Alexander Shearer nightgaunt@earthlink.net gaunt@uclink4.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 16:40:45 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Non-Omnipotent God Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > In all three cases, it is hard to see a reason why God would even > have created the angels. And if he is unwilling to interfere because > it is an experiment, then why does he allow angels or devils to > interfere? Or, if the devils exist to tempt humans, ala Job, then > why the angels. I'm not thrilled with the "experiment" metaphor. If God wants to have a community of people, and by "people" we mean free moral and rational agents, then He has to let them make their own choices, and, for those choices to be meaningful, He has to let those choices have consequences -- not completely without interference, necessarily, but on the whole without interference. It doesn't matter if the people are humans or celestials. Of course, in as much as angels are executing God's will, they too have to avoid too much interference. Demons aren't executing God's will, but they too need to leave room for human free will to operate so we can have the chance to damn ourselves. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 15:00:46 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Non-Omnipotent God >>>In any case, a fully omnipotent God (save maybe one that is toying with the universe) would not, IMO, result in the world we have in In Nomine.<<< Possibly. On the other hand, who can fathom the means and motives of an omnipotent being? Actually, I'm of the view that God is a being with "limited omnipotence". Which is to say, once He sets events in motion, things *can* happen that He neither anticipated nor intended. Now of course He *could* have anticipated them, prevented them, and even undone them after the fact if He really wanted to. But I see Him as a bit of an experimenter.....He created the universe, now he wants to see how it all turns out. Earth is a pet project, and He considers free will to be a very important part of the project....which precludes Him from interfering *too* much. So now and then He puts a word in with the angels, but for the most part, He leaves them alone to sort themselves out. - -David http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/Innomine.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:49:27 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> Malakim of Creation At 07:26 PM 7/25/97 -0400, you wrote: >>Is sodium metal a simple substance? How about phospherous? > >For the suicidal angel, a tiny amount of antimatter can really >ruin a demon's day... > What an *interesting* idea.... Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 08:34:50 +1000 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN>Paradox Angels Thomas Davidson wrote: > > > Eris? (Greek for Discord, the whimsical patron goddess of the > > Discordians) > > > Ummm, wouldn't Eris be more appropriate as a Demon Prince? Remember, > before she went off to console herself with a hot dog :-) she caused the > First War. I see Eris as a moderate-power Ethereal Spirit, myself, and will probably use her as such when/if I ever run IN. She has a lot of qualities in common with Lilith, and the two may even be 'friends'. Incidentally, if you think Eris could be fun, wait until I work out the role of J.R. "Bob" Dobbs in this whole Symphony thing... - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia Jimbo, king of the private school kids The girls from PLC, who identify with his tortured soul 'Cause they've just dropped boyfriend number three He was Kent from Xavier College, in HSC he got an A for English But between Jimbo and William Blake He hasn't the fucking brains to distinguish TISM, "Morrison Hostel" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 18:31 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Malakim of Creation >> > For the suicidal angel, a tiny amount of antimatter can really >> > ruin a demon's day... >> Oog...I don't know that I'd consider antimatter `simple'. (I >> realize that technically it's as simple as any regular matter, but I don't >> think an Attunement geared toward matter would reasonably construe it as >> such..) >> Besides; granting that Eli doesn't officially do it, I'd suggest >> that creating antimatter with one of his Attunements would be Dissonant... >> (Or at least one of the few ways to seriously annoy him. Especially for >> Malakim, there's a big difference between corporeally suicidal and REALLY >> suicidal that needs to be considered here..) > > Since anti-matter seems to be against the local rules of >the Symphony (If God wanted things made of antimatter, he would >have CREATED them that way, by gum!), a gamemaster can rule against >it with a calm heart. Or it can be a brand new servitor attunement >and it makes a _minute_ quantity. Actually, small amounts of antimatter are around all the time, produced by radioactive decay. (There are several isotopes that beta-decay with an e+, and I think there are a few where an anti-proton is part of the decay process.) So the basic particles, at least *are* part of the "local rules of the Symphony".... There are also other "natural" materials like neutronium that could have nasty effects if manifested in quantity on Earth. Does the angel of Eli get to pick the form of the created matter? Can he create water as ice? How about O2 as LOX? Or anything at a sufficient density to create a mini-black hole? Obviously the attunement should have *some* flexibility, but there are going to need to be limits, too. Drawing a line on these sorts of questions is a bit tricky.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 08:43:30 +1000 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> A small "Immortals" tangent (was Dark In Nomine) John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > If anyone ever converted THAT game to GURPS, I'd give it > > another try. > > I was trying, but I realized it was tantamount to rewriting > the entire game. If anyone chooses to try I recommend scrapping > _any_ conversion rules and starting fresh, though! > I'v been reading through my Immortal stuff recently (unemployment brings a low boredom threshold). The basic mechanic - skill/stat +d10 - is quite sound. It's just all those extra Hostile dice that destroy things. Easy fix - stick with the one dice roll. Divide each Hostile by 3 and add it to the difficulty of the original roll. If you have a Talent that applies to the Hostile being applied, it negates the extra difficulty (up to it's level), but doesn't reduce the original difficulty of the roll. Everything else in the game is just excess rules (throw out the ones you don't like), and fooling around with the Hostiles. ObIN: Well, there isn't one. This is off-topic, so I'll shut up now. - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia Jimbo, king of the private school kids The girls from PLC, who identify with his tortured soul 'Cause they've just dropped boyfriend number three He was Kent from Xavier College, in HSC he got an A for English But between Jimbo and William Blake He hasn't the fucking brains to distinguish TISM, "Morrison Hostel" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 19:04 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Questions about Lilim [johnk:] > Your sisterhood network sounds like a neat idea... I bet >you there is a _massive_ bulletin board hanging on a wall somewhere >in Lilith's domain just for this. Ah, John, Lilith isn't supposed to *have* a domain, at least in Hell -- the book says she didn't want one. I figure she spends most of her time in the corporeal realm -- who'd want to stay in Hell if they didn't have to? (And without a domain there to defend, she doesn't need to....) She *might* have a corporeal domain of some sort -- I tend to see her as one of those dispossessed European royalty types who has a lot of money and an upper-class attitude, the kind everyone who matters invites to their parties.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 05:12:03 UT From: "Hermes Trismegistus" Subject: Re: IN>Paradox Angels If this doesn't come through clearly, my apologies, by Outlook has completely died, and taken most of Exchange with it. > > Evan.:) > > I like Evan... but it lacks the authority the job requires... > > > Or how about Albert? > > Albert?!? Geez... > What about Louis?? I was rather hoping for something more 'angelic' sounding, perhaps with Qabbalistic undertones. I'm inclined towards Dina at the moment, though I'm not entirely happy with it. < Have you thought of using one of the Sephiroth to name him/her? Nice Qabalistic names with their own meanings (which you can ignore if you don't like them). I like Kether, Binah or Malkuth, however I had an idea for Netzach, the AA of Victory which never went anywhere. The Kult[1] RPG system used the Sefiroth and the Unholy Sefiroth to create the Archons in its system (which are almost the same as AAs, but much eviller (wtf?) than any demon. I wanted to try importing some of the concepts into In Nomine, but I'm too busy to try (plus I don't know when I'll next run a game of it - Rifts is calling again:) ). Kurt So many systems, so little time. [1] Used to be a Metropolis game (originally in Swedish), but now Target Games has the licence (I think). If this is wrong, I also heard WotC (spit) had the licence. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 19:14:41 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Redeeming Shedim (Was: Dark In Nomine) At 8:46 PM -0600 7/25/97, Kingsley Lintz wrote: >> Also, (and this goes for *any* of the princes...) what was that bit about >> having your heart locked in a cage? Ahhh yes! page 185...."most Princes keep > >> And of course, the juicy part is earlier in that article..."But be careful- >> wherever you go, your prince can grab your Heart and squeeze...and find you." >> Actually given the explanation on pg 185 I wonder how any renegades ever make >> it...You would pretty much have to do it with the full intention of switching > > Successful Will roll shatters your Heart, I believe. (I can't find >it offhand, but I'm sure I got that impression from SOMEWHERE..) p 185: Demons' Hearts box. Last paragraph. Archangel of Archives at your service... >> Hmmm...say I'm a demon, and I want to be *independant*...that might be >> possible if I cut a deal with Lilith. Sure, now I owe her favors, but it's a > > Um, cutting a deal with Lilith isn't the fastest way to real >independance.. Ask any Free Lilim.. "Hey, you get a better deal than working for a Prince! At least you *know* what your value is..." - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 20:03:42 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Discord At 10:15 AM -0400 7/28/97, Emily K. Dresner wrote: >Okay, one more question. But the third is a quicky. > >I'm having trouble determining how one is supposed to "notice" if someone >has Discord. Now, Corporeal discord is like wearing a badge that says, >"Hi, my name is Joe, I'm a celestial and I've been BAD." You can't miss >big discolored splotches. And even the ethereal discord shows up after a >fashion - paranoia, anger, etc. An observer can pick up that so and so is >action kind of funky. > >But how in the world does someone detect Celestial Discord. Under the >servants of Asmodeus, that's one of the qualifiers for being hunted - the >celestial in question has picked up Celestial Discord and needs to be >eliminated. It's the worst (or the best, I guess, if you're 1/2 way to >redemption), but how do they KNOW? Does Merciful show up on your >celestial form like a giant peace sign on your back? Does lustful show up >in some more entertaining ways? Malakim working for Judgment can hear dissonance... Ofanim can detect it in humans at least (and celestials?). Seraphim can just ask. In celestial form, Discords *do* show up in whatever way the GM decides -- but they are instantly recognizable as Discord. (It's probably the GM's option to tell *which* Discord it is.) Another way is if someone is chronically short on Essence -- probably a Celestial Discord. Behavior might give clues there... A Lilim might be able to pick something up -- a Lustful person *Needs* sex; a Greedy person *Needs* money/things; a Gluttonous person *Wants* to eat; someone with a Need probably screams it out to the Lilim resonance... How do Asmodeus' pick it up? Well, the Servitors of the Game can detect dissonance in those of their own Band... And they can use the above methods -- observation and Lilim. A Captain of Integrity can also probably function sort of like a Seraph, and just ask... One other way they determine it is, through observation, considering it to be likely. Then they kill the vessel. If it shows up with Discord (and in Trauma, so you can go look at it easily, too!), then it was obviously a Discordant target... If it's "clean," then you may have to explain yourself... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 19:41:44 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Angels & Religion At 12:04 AM -0400 7/26/97, Gregory Littmann wrote: >> >> >>>In Nomine should clear up the whole question of how Angels relate to >> >> religion. > >> >> In Nomine isn't going to clear these things up because angels don't have >> >> definitive answers to most of those questions, any more than humans do. >> > >> > But humans *do* have practices that they associate with thier beliefs in >> >God and Heaven. Humans pray, go to church, (usually) believe the >> >religions they foster and think God loves and cares about them. Even if >> >there are no absolute answers for angels, there must be cultural >> >tendencies. >> >> Why? > >Because every other group has cultural tendencies. Every other human group. >> I'd suspect there are *individual* tendencies, or Choiral >> tendencies, or Superior-based tendencies... But I don't think >> those are "culture" in that sense. > > Even if there are individual tendencies, it would be nice to know which >way most individuals go. Is the angel who goes to church religiously >every Sunday an eccentric or the norm? #1: pick for your campaign. #2: depends on Superior. If you serve Gabriel, who has a warm spot for Islam, then you probably don't go to church. If you serve Dominic or Laurence, you probably will at least think about it as part of your Role. > Even if there are Choiral or Superior based tendencies, I think that >these will have large effects on the way Angels live their lives. Thus, >we should be told about them. If Angels think that going to church is >right, they are going to *be* there every Sunday. I think that's pinning stuff down a little too much -- as a PC and potential GM, I don't want to say that there's any one "this is Truth" human religion. If an individual angel chooses to believe more in one religion than another, or chooses to go to a church to celebrate their connection to the Divine, then that's one thing, but I don't want the rules to dictate what angels think. *MY* opinion is that angels probably don't bother with the trappings of human religions. They already have a connection to the Divine -- they hear the True Symphony. They have Hearts that radiate the love the Divine has for them as individual instruments. They serve Words, aspects of all of the universe, aspects of God Itself. Why would they bother with the trappings of human religions en masse? >> The thing about angels and demons is that they don't just *believe* >> there's a God of some sort, they *KNOW* it. > >Christians are still supposed to go to church, nomatter *how* strong their >faith is. (O.K., I'm generalising about Christians, but as a rule of >thumb, they believe this to be true). But this isn't the same -- it's still *FAITH*. No proof. Angels *know*. They know it every time they ascend to Heaven. They know it whenever they see their Hearts. They don't *need* much in the way of Faith. (Maybe Faith in the Great Eneffable Plan...) >> Angels probably *do* pray under stress -- "Oh, God, let me get this >> grenade *right* into that demon's car and not hit the school bus" -- >> but it's probably only the most heartfelt of prayers. > >Why not pray all day? Maybe spending all day every day singing the Lord's >praises in a magnificent voice is a perfectly good vocation for an Angel. And it is -- just not the ones who are assigned to Earth. >> What an >> angel in church is probably doing is sending up "good thoughts;" >> heavier on the "thanking the Symphony for the glory around us" than >> asking for stuff. Angels *give* stuff/luck, they don't ask. > > They could ask for help in helping others - praying for strength and so >forth. They could even pray for others directly. I'm not sure why they'd do that -- *they're* the ones who are supposed to be down there being the answer to mortal prayers. Considering how Archangels act, angels might want to be careful about praying -- they wouldn't want God to think they were trying to pass the buck and not do their jobs! >> As for which religions are more True? That's individual taste >> again. > >But also a question that Angels know is *damned* important! And a question that they can't agree on -- look at Laurence, Dominic, Gabriel... (And Khalid.) Yves, who is said to be the one who named God, doesn't seem to take sides... How can any lesser angel? >> Does God love and care about angels as much as humans? >> That's probably also individual opinion -- the demons think "no," >> and that's part of why they upped stakes and left. The ones who >> stayed think that the Way of Things is appropriate, but may or may >> not believe that they get seperate but equal Loving. > >Its hard to believe that they don't think about it though. And after >thousands of years of thinking about it (or more), there should be schools >of thought. So invent them yourself, to suit yourself and your gaming group. You're not going to get The Truth About Religion from a gaming book!! >> Demons, on the other hand, probably have a little problem: they don't >> dare pray to anyone or anything. Someone might answer, and *then* >> they're in *real* trouble... > > :D O;D (I have a Renegade who's in that spot -- she's a Free Lilim. Who's been hanging out with angels too much to make the Servitors of the Game happy if they catch her. And lately had a year-Geas called in with the instructions that she's to think of herself as a good little Servitor of...Lightning. Now, what *does* she think when she's in a tight spot? She's a demon, can't really pray to God. Don't want to bother an AA unnecessarily (though she's got the option). Do *not* want Infernal attention, so Lucifer's out. And she well knows that "Mom" will charge for any help....) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 21:02:08 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Playing Dead At 2:23 PM -0500 7/27/97, Donald G Bixler wrote: >> Since an Celestial doesn't have to breath and has high resistance to >> enviornmental factors like heat and cold, How easy is it for a Celestial to >> fake death? > > Actually, Celestial vessels _do_ have to breathe. > >Oops da Ogre, who doesn't remember where that fact is mentioned, though p. 48, Celestial Vessels box. Second paragraph. The high resistance is non-canon, methinks, but I and my spouse are proponents of the theory that any temperature extreme short of actual physical damage can be ignored by a celestial. If it's 33 degrees F (just above freezing), then you can have Lilim of Lust wandering around in short miniskirts (no, it's not redundant for them...) and halter tops. Or put them in fur coats in 100F temperatures. Frostbite and potential sunburn, however... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 20:44:56 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Novalis stuff (Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy) At 10:00 AM -0500 7/28/97, Shadowcat wrote: >On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, David Edelstein wrote: > >> >>>Marriage I could see, to an extent...there are too many herbal >> abortificants, though.<<< >> >> There are herbal drugs and poisons too....Novalis isn't automatically in >> favor of every purpose to which a plant can be put. > > Why not? She would use the herbal drugs for healing the sick, or >recreation, and the poisons to kill off demons, and things that hurt her >plants. More accurate, I'd think, to say that Novalis isn't automatically in favor of every use to which plants *are* put -- she may approve of poisoning a demon, but not all plant poisons are used exclusively against demons. Fer instance, she isn't happy with Fleurity 'cause he draws attention from the "Good" uses of plants, and towards the "Bad" uses... (IIRC my Night Music well enough...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 20:56:03 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Asmodeus Hit Squads At 10:10 AM -0400 7/28/97, Emily K. Dresner wrote: >I have a second question, now... [...] > >So how are Asmodeus Hit Squads organized? [Game Triad stuff snipped -- entertaining...] I'm not sure that there would *always* be Game Triads, in the way that Judgment Triads are the common sight. Asmodeus' Servitors can recognize their own Band-members, and spot the dissonance of those demons, so they don't have to have anyone asking questions (the Seraph). I've been thinking you can get them in groups of 1-3 -- they just have to be able to justify to *Asmodeus* real well why they offed some demon, if they work solo. I suspect that they're probably often paired -- a member of the Suspect's Band, and a Djinn to be a bruiser and a tracker. (In fact, I've been writing some stuff about a couple of partners... Lilim and Djinn, of the Game...) If the Suspect is too tough, though ("Hey, he's not only Renegade, he's hanging around with a bunch of angels to protect him! Gak!"), then it's time to call in more help... At *least* a Calabite. That Triads would watch over each other is a point, though. Maybe Asmodeus is less paranoid about his going Renegade? Angels can Fall without a conscious act of will (sort of), but demons can't run off without taking care of Hearts first... And Asmodeus is probably quite careful with his Servitors' Hearts... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 20:33:25 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Questions about Lilim At 9:49 AM -0400 7/28/97, Emily K. Dresner wrote: >Alright, I'm about to be two whole entire sessions into my campaign (woo >hoo!), and I was working on back story. I have tons of questions now, and >I'm gonna break them up over a few emails.... > >***************************************************************************** > >So Lilim end up being my favorite sort of celestial. Sue me. They're >cool. I think so too. };) (Ask me in private about some of my notions about what it "feels like" to be a Lilim...) >I'm reading through the sourcebook, and I come across this line, "To >invoke a resonance, a celestial must make a d666 roll equal to his >Perception (for angels and Lilim)..." Does this mean that Lilim perceive >the Symphony the same way Angels do, and don't exist in their own little >selfish Symphonies? There are two schools of thought about that... I tend to waffle -- they can perceive the True Symphony, but also have their own little personal theme that rings louder for them. >So I decided, for my purposes, that the answer to this was a YES, but I >started wondering, where do Lilim come from? Yeah, it says that Lilith >creates them, but how? Well, it involves Forces. And maybe some other tricks... >************************************************************************** > >Which brings me to a second point, the Sisterhood. [much nice stuff snipped] I've been thinking they're close to that, though not quite -- they get stuck at odds with each other often enough that they can't let themselves get *too* attached to their siblings. When you could end up being Geased "to help *my* goals to the *utmost* of your abilities," you might wind up having to betray your sisters... Now, if it were a Geas what made you do it, they might be able to forgive you, but it does put a crimp in trusting anyone... (Charming Lilim Ritual between lovers... Before they go to bed, they exchange Day-Geasa and invoke them, "For this night, betray me not." My Renegade Lil was wondering why such a *touching*, romantic ritual was making the Seraph of Creation get big tearful eyes and start going on about trust and love and stuff...) At 1:41 PM -0400 7/28/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >>[...] It's made clear that the Lilim are not actually demons, >> per se, and they aren't angels. They're celestials of a completely >> different sort. They're Children of Lilith. But Lilith is shown not just >> as a figurehead of dark sexuality and desire, and of female rebellion, but >> also a mother figure in the darkness. > > Lilim _are_ demons. Hey, I've got Lilim who will make a distinction that they're *different* from yer run-of-the-mill, dime-a-dozen demons... Okay, so they're demonic... They're no more generic demons than Habbalah... };) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 21:38:20 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> Questions about Lilim Emily K. Dresner wrote: > I started thinking about two things. The first comes from a reference > > from the Dictionary of Angels, where Lilith is the mother of Cain > Overall, this would make Cain the first Lilim, and if you think about > it, > is it Caina? Things get kind of confusing.... Well, maybe things are a little confusing... Lilith *can't* be Cain's mother - remember, she was cast out (or ran, whatever)! How could he murder Abel if they weren't being raisen together?? Cain is the first child of Adam and Eve - and some texts say he was son of Eve, but not of Adam!! However, these same texts say the Serpent Eve's met was a metaphor for...you know... :-) Anyway, that's what I follow... You can have your own canon... Andre ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 97 19:06:23 UT From: "Hermes Trismegistus" Subject: RE: IN>Paradox Angels "Concerning the name of the Paradox Angel: Kurt? (after Goedel, who showed that no formal system is complete)" I REALLY like this one :) "Jude? (after St. Jude, patron saint of lost causes) Eris? (Greek for Discord, the whimsical patron goddess of the Discordians)" And this one, but I'm sure she'd object... Earl Wajenberg Kurt (not Goedel) doombu@msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 97 19:26:49 UT From: "Hermes Trismegistus" Subject: RE: IN> Asmodeus Hit Squads I've been tripping. I remember the old Robotech television anime series, actually three stand alone series, dubbed, rewritten, and spliced together for American audiences. The second generation, "Southern Cross", had the Masters of Protoculture and the aliens always came in triumervants. I'm thinking of that because, well, because I am. As an irrelevant side note, the Macross series was absolutely brilliant, but the "Southern Cross" series was actually set on another planet (apparently Harmony Gold airbrushed out the second sun/moon so they could continue the Robotech saga on Earth). The weird thing is I read in an Anime mag that Protoculture was never really mentioned in the original Japanimation... ************************************************************************* According to Mr. Rulebook, my oddly organized pal, under Dominic the servants move in Triads in the Divine Inquisition. This is a Seraph, a Cherub, and a Miscellanious. They are Judge, Jury, and Executioner, and their sentances are absolute. They chase down the guilty, persecute them, and end it in one swift move. So how are Asmodeus Hit Squads organized? I think it's fair that Asmodeus mirrors Dominic, not only in purpose, but in methodology. A triad would mean you have three demons watching each other all of the time to make sure none of them steps out of line, who have proven themselves in loyalty one way or another. So, I came up with: Again the Law of Threes! It's almost as pervasive as the Law of Fives. I'm still trying to reconcile the two Laws. Dunno why, just mental I suppose. I would hate to think how Asmodeus would treat one of his own triads that went rogue. Carpet bomb the last city they were seen in? Fun, but too much of a Disturbance. It would be a job for Special Branch. The INQUISITOR: A Balseraph of some standing, probably masquerading as a District Attorney. (I don't see DA's as Impudites, sorry. That requires compassion. Imps would make create Slip and Fall small claims ambulance chasers, but wouldn't do to be putting the Innocent away on circumstantial evidence.) The Balseraph would do the questioning, probably have the Dissonance Binding attunement, and would levy sentance. Generally the superior of the three. Would a Balseraph really be necessary considering that you mentioned below that the sentence and verdict have already been decreed by Asmodeus? But they really would be quite well suited to the role of "You and I need to have a little chat. We hear you've been a naughty boy Clement". The STALKER: A Djinn, also of some standing, probably a cop of some sort. He has tracking, survival, and of course is there to attune himself to the victim, find him, and bring him back. A bruiser of some quantity, heavy on combat and lower on mental skills. Would it be more appropriate to have a Djinn (or other demon) with more base cunning than bruiser potential for this role? You could pretty much assume that a renegade demon would be much more ruthless and resourceful in running from the Law. The EXECUTIONER: I was torn, but eventually decided on a Calabite for pure destructive power. His job is to carry out the sentance. Period. I made mine have the role of a Meat Butcher, just for panache'. Yep, a Calabite would be a brilliant Executioner... "Dynamite down the pants... explode-o!". You may see some becoming quite creative and developing signature Executions. Someone your demons could truly come to fear :) Basically, the exact same as the Dominic triads, but with much darker, bloodier purpose. They aren't interested in trying the victim and deciding on a verdict by majority vote. That sentance is already handed down from Asmodeus. The idea is to Find, Repent, and Pay for Crimes, since they are already "guilty". Any comments? Thanks. This is an interesting idea, although it may seem to indicate that everything in Heaven should have its Infernal equivalent (maybe this is true. Any thoughts?). What about a Lilim to do plea bargaining for the defendant? Haagenti could provide the last meal for the condemned demon, and Nybbas could televise the event to illustrate the savagery of Judicial Execution. Kurt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:58:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy > > > > > > The concept of moral goodness can be NEITHER created NOR existing > independent of God if it is one of God's own aspects. This is the > out I would take. > I just don't understand what you are saying. By "aspect", you obviously don't just mean "property" or "feature", because there is nothing to stop a property being held by numerous things, some of which predate the others. So what is it that you mean? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 01:06:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy On Mon, 28 Jul 1997, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > "Morality" is an abstract concept. You could get very heavy > metaphysical arguments both ways about whether abstract concepts > have the the kind of existence (or any existence at all) that allows > them to be created or destroyed or have anything else "happen" to them. In the context of IN, these concepts do have an existence that be created or destroyed -- they're called 'Words'. > The concept of moral goodness can be NEITHER created NOR existing > independent of God if it is one of God's own aspects. This is the > out I would take. But what are you really saying? It sounds like Schroedinger -- "The cat is both alive AND dead." God is many things, but I wouldn't number Uncertain among His attributes. - -- Casca (bertishg@db.erau.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:57:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Davidson Subject: Re: IN>Paradox Angels On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Patrick O'Duffy wrote: > Thomas Davidson wrote: > > > > > Eris? (Greek for Discord, the whimsical patron goddess of the > > > Discordians) > > > > > Ummm, wouldn't Eris be more appropriate as a Demon Prince? Remember, > > before she went off to console herself with a hot dog :-) she caused the > > First War. > > I see Eris as a moderate-power Ethereal Spirit, myself, and will > probably use her as such when/if I ever run IN. She has a lot of > qualities in common with Lilith, and the two may even be 'friends'. Eris and Lilith friends.... Interesting thought. > Incidentally, if you think Eris could be fun, wait until I work out > the role of J.R. "Bob" Dobbs in this whole Symphony thing... > You don't mean "Bob" from the Church of the Sub-Genius? :-) And here I thought *I* was a sick and demented mind. :-) Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us - -------------------- Don't panic! I have a new .sig! - -------------------- Instruction Booklet for this message: STEP 1: Open mouth. STEP 2: Insert foot. STEP 3: Chew vigorously. STEP 4: Repeat as needed. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 01:21:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: RE: IN> Asmodeus Hit Squads On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Hermes Trismegistus wrote: > Again the Law of Threes! It's almost as pervasive as the Law of Fives. I'm > still trying to reconcile the two Laws. Dunno why, just mental I suppose. They work in tandem to each other. The Law of Five, three times, equals fifteen. The Law of Three, five times, equals fifteen. I suspect that Archangels and Demon Princes possess 15 Forces. > Would a Balseraph really be necessary considering that you mentioned below > that the sentence and verdict have already been decreed by Asmodeus? But they > really would be quite well suited to the role of "You and I need to have a > little chat. We hear you've been a naughty boy Clement". I would use Lilim here, myself. Rengade demons are probably loaded with Discord, and there's a good chance that it's a Celestial discord with some sort of need or desire which the Lilim can sense. > This is an interesting idea, although it may seem to indicate that everything > in Heaven should have its Infernal equivalent (maybe this is true. Any > thoughts?). As above, so below? - -- Casca (bertishg@db.erau.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:36:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> Angels & Religion > >> Why? > > > >Because every other group has cultural tendencies. > > Every other human group. Right, but celestial minds seem to be pretty human-like. In Nomine does not give them particularly alien psychologies. > > >> I'd suspect there are *individual* tendencies, or Choiral > >> tendencies, or Superior-based tendencies... But I don't think > >> those are "culture" in that sense. > > > > Even if there are individual tendencies, it would be nice to know which > >way most individuals go. Is the angel who goes to church religiously > >every Sunday an eccentric or the norm? > > #1: pick for your campaign. #2: depends on Superior. If you serve > Gabriel, who has a warm spot for Islam, then you probably don't > go to church. Sure - but you might hang around a mosque on Fridays. > If you serve Dominic or Laurence, you probably will > at least think about it as part of your Role. Maybe. Maybe not. We're not really told. We know that these angels support Christianity for humans, but not how they feel about Christianity for angels - or indeed, for archangels. > > > Even if there are Choiral or Superior based tendencies, I think that > >these will have large effects on the way Angels live their lives. Thus, > >we should be told about them. If Angels think that going to church is > >right, they are going to *be* there every Sunday. > > I think that's pinning stuff down a little too much -- as a PC and > potential GM, I don't want to say that there's any one "this is > Truth" human religion. Goodness no! I wouldn't want that either. But the religious habits of angels can be dealt with without making a judgement over that. > If an individual angel chooses to believe > more in one religion than another, or chooses to go to a church > to celebrate their connection to the Divine, then that's one > thing, but I don't want the rules to dictate what angels think. Nor would I, any more than I would want rules in any other game to thrust a single religion and religious code on all characters. But I do want every game to tell me about how religion fits in with the setting. If I were to play a game set in feudal Japan, I would like a rundown of religions practices and beliefs that are common at the time. I want the same for a game set among angels. > > *MY* opinion is that angels probably don't bother with the trappings > of human religions. They already have a connection to the Divine -- > they hear the True Symphony. They have Hearts that radiate the love > the Divine has for them as individual instruments. They serve > Words, aspects of all of the universe, aspects of God Itself. Why > would they bother with the trappings of human religions en masse? To answer that one, I would have to know why humans bother with the trappings of religion en masse. Perhaps just to keep them in closer contact with God. Why should angels believe *less* in the usefulness of prayer than humans do? > > >> The thing about angels and demons is that they don't just *believe* > >> there's a God of some sort, they *KNOW* it. > > > >Christians are still supposed to go to church, nomatter *how* strong their > >faith is. (O.K., I'm generalising about Christians, but as a rule of > >thumb, they believe this to be true). > > But this isn't the same -- it's still *FAITH*. No proof. Angels *know*. > They know it every time they ascend to Heaven. They know it whenever > they see their Hearts. They don't *need* much in the way of Faith. > (Maybe Faith in the Great Eneffable Plan...) Neither does anyone who has seen a miracle, but they are usually not excused church attendence. I believe that church is supposed to do you some kind of spiritual good. Christ himself was not averse to having a pray. I don't mean to imply that there really *was* a Christ in the In Nomine universe, just that it is unclear that proof and religious practices are mutually exclusive. > > >> Angels probably *do* pray under stress -- "Oh, God, let me get this > >> grenade *right* into that demon's car and not hit the school bus" -- > >> but it's probably only the most heartfelt of prayers. > > > >Why not pray all day? Maybe spending all day every day singing the Lord's > >praises in a magnificent voice is a perfectly good vocation for an Angel. > > And it is -- just not the ones who are assigned to Earth. But if it is such a good thing to praise God, why do Angels assigned on earth not consider doing so from time to time? They aren't *that* busy. > > >> What an > >> angel in church is probably doing is sending up "good thoughts;" > >> heavier on the "thanking the Symphony for the glory around us" than > >> asking for stuff. Angels *give* stuff/luck, they don't ask. > > > > They could ask for help in helping others - praying for strength and so > >forth. They could even pray for others directly. > > I'm not sure why they'd do that -- *they're* the ones who are supposed > to be down there being the answer to mortal prayers. As best they can - but God could do it so much better. This is why a doctor who thinks she has been called to tend to the poor might still pray for them. > Considering how > Archangels act, angels might want to be careful about praying -- they > wouldn't want God to think they were trying to pass the buck and not > do their jobs! Yeah, its true that Archangels are not too fond of being bothered. But then again, they don't have infinite power. > > >> As for which religions are more True? That's individual taste > >> again. > > > >But also a question that Angels know is *damned* important! > > And a question that they can't agree on -- look at Laurence, > Dominic, Gabriel... (And Khalid.) I'm not insisting that they all agree. I just think that they will have opinions and practices. Besides, which human religion is true is not directly the point. We aren't told how angels relate to religion at *all*. Do they even think that religions are *supposed* to be true? Do they think that religion is just for humanity or for everyone? > > > >Its hard to believe that they don't think about it though. And after > >thousands of years of thinking about it (or more), there should be schools > >of thought. > > So invent them yourself, to suit yourself and your gaming group. You're > not going to get The Truth About Religion from a gaming book!! I don't want the Truth About Religion. I just want to know how angels generally relate to religion in In Nomine. Without some nod to religion, its all too easy for the game to devolve into a super-hero game with factions. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #266 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.