From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Jul 30 00:25:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA20931 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 00:25:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA16604 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 22:23:26 -0500 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 22:23:26 -0500 Message-Id: <199707300323.WAA16604@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #267 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, July 29 1997 Volume 01 : Number 267 In this digest: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy Re: IN> Dark In Nomine (was Dominic is not a Bad Guy) IN> Kyrio Celestial Forms Re: IN> Questions about Lilim RE: IN> Asmodeus Hit Squads IN> Asmodeus Hit Squads IN> Discord IN> Malakim of Creation Re: IN> Questions about Lilim Re: IN> Questions about Lilim Re: IN> Asmodeus Hit Squads Re: IN> Questions about Lilim Re: IN> Questions about Lilim IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #263 Re: IN> Non-Omnipotent God Re: IN> Angels & Religion Re: IN>Paradox Angels Re: IN> Playing Dead Re: IN> Malakim of Creation Fluff (Re: IN> Re: Non-omnipotent God) Re: Novalis stuff (Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy) IN> RELICS CONTEST -- FINAL CALL! Re: Re: IN> Questions about Lilim Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy RE: IN> Asmodeus Hit Squads Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:00:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy > > > >>>Marriage I could see, to an extent...there are too many herbal > > abortificants, though.<<< > > > > There are herbal drugs and poisons too....Novalis isn't automatically in > > favor of every purpose to which a plant can be put. > > Why not? She would use the herbal drugs for healing the sick, or > recreation, and the poisons to kill off demons, and things that hurt her > plants. > But that isn't covering every use to which the plants can be put - you can also use those poisonous plants to poison innocents. Remember, the herbal abortificants are being put to a particular use - they are being used in abortions. Novalis might think the abortificants are fine as a recreational drink from non-pregnant persons, yet find abortion abhorant. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:06:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> Dark In Nomine (was Dominic is not a Bad Guy) > > > If Angels outclass Mages by being immune to them (being the servants > > of > > the real one and only author of reality and everything) that you could > > add > > mages and keep a very interesting In Nomine campaign. But that's a > > cross-over that favours one of the elements pretty heavily. There's > > not > > really much left that can be called Mage when reality isn't > > subjective. > > But who said reality wouldn't still be subjective that way??? > You see, ordinary people shape reality - and that's ok with God, that's > what he created them for. But God always has final say on what is real and what is not. Even if the Technocracy convinced everyone with 100% certainty of whatever they want to convince them of, there would still be a God and he would still rule the universe. The way He says things are to be is how they are and there's nothing that anyone else can do about it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 09:09:27 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: IN> Kyrio Celestial Forms Peter wrote: >Page 103 says that a Kyrio with 3 Forces not being used to possess >Hosts may manifest a Celestial form and "That form need not be in the >same place (or on the same plane) as his host body or bodies, but he >can never have more than one celestial form at a time." >Does this mean that a Kyrio can manifest his celestial form anywhere? >That is anywhere not in the same place as any of his Host(s)? >Can a Kyrio who manifests their celestial form use it to communicate >with others, presuming he doesn't stun them. Very useful when >inhabiting animal Hosts. IMO, the Kyrio can only manifest its Celestial form at one of its hosts or at its Heart, ie, it needs to 'split off' part of its being to make the Celestial form. That form may then move to anywhere in the Symphony it likes, but can't simply be formed exactly where it wants to be. As for communication, I'd say yes, as long as they can hear/see it and aren't stunned. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 08:01:38 -0400 (EDT) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> Questions about Lilim > > I started thinking about two things. The first comes from a reference > > > > from the Dictionary of Angels, where Lilith is the mother of Cain > > > Overall, this would make Cain the first Lilim, and if you think about > > it, > > is it Caina? Things get kind of confusing.... > > Well, maybe things are a little confusing... Lilith *can't* be > Cain's mother - remember, she was cast out (or ran, whatever)! How could > he murder Abel if they weren't being raisen together?? Cain is the first > child of Adam and Eve - and some texts say he was son of Eve, but not of > Adam!! However, these same texts say the Serpent Eve's met was a > metaphor for...you know... :-) Anyway, that's what I follow... You can > have your own canon... > > Andre > Well, the reference was from the Dictionary of Angels, and later I found it in an interpretation of the Alphabet of Ben Sira. So I didn't just pull it out of a hat. :) It doesn't really matter for my campaign, though. My PCs have enough problems with run of the mill Habbalah and Calabites right now to deal with anything on that sort of scale. :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 97 04:22:06 UT From: "Hermes Trismegistus" Subject: RE: IN> Asmodeus Hit Squads On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, I wrote: >> Again the Law of Threes! It's almost as pervasive as the Law of Fives. I'm >> still trying to reconcile the two Laws. Dunno why, just mental I suppose. And Casca wrote: >They work in tandem to each other. The Law of Five, three times, equals >fifteen. The Law of Three, five times, equals fifteen. And of course 15 equals 13 in base 8. Oh dear, I think I have to stop reading Illuminatus! before it really starts affecting me :P >I suspect that Archangels and Demon Princes possess 15 Forces. Sounds about right, just big enough to squash miserable underlings, but not too big so as to draw too much attention to themselves. At least, demonically speaking }:) >> Would a Balseraph really be necessary considering that you mentioned below >> that the sentence and verdict have already been decreed by Asmodeus? But they >> really would be quite well suited to the role of "You and I need to have a >> little chat. We hear you've been a naughty boy Clement". >I would use Lilim here, myself. Rengade demons are probably loaded with >Discord, and there's a good chance that it's a Celestial discord with >some sort of need or desire which the Lilim can sense. Yeah, but that may not necessarily be true if they have the discord Anger, unless he/she senses that the demons is thinking "I really need to break someone's head!" >> This is an interesting idea, although it may seem to indicate that everything >> in Heaven should have its Infernal equivalent (maybe this is true. Any >> thoughts?). >As above, so below? Or as Robert Anton Wilson would say: Macrocosm, meet Microcosm "Hi Mike" "Hic Mac" - -- Casca (bertishg@db.erau.edu) - -Kurt doombu@msn.com put funny .sig here ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 08:33:33 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Asmodeus Hit Squads From: "Emily K. Dresner" >The idea is to Find, Repent, and Pay for Crimes, since they are already "guilty". Any comments? Thanks. < Alternatively they wander round ingroups of four wearing costumes with giant yellow shoulderpads and have large Judge badges... Adam Canning Dahak@Compuserve.Com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 08:33:27 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Discord From: "Emily K. Dresner" >But how in the world does someone detect Celestial Discord. Under the servants of Asmodeus, that's one of the qualifiers for being hunted - the celestial in question has picked up Celestial Discord and needs to be eliminated. It's the worst (or the best, I guess, if you're 1/2 way to redemption), but how do they KNOW? Does Merciful show up on your celestial form like a giant peace sign on your back? Does lustful show up in some more entertaining ways? < All the celestial and many of the etherial discords are only likely to be noticed by observation [ Much like dealing with the computer in Paranoia.] If the character can hide from other demons that he has it then he can get away with it. Otherwise he's on a trip to Vapulas mincing machine. Angels seem to get a subconcious dislike for other angels with discord [p 61].. I think the section on servants of Asmodeus is making the point that they terminate with extreme predudice when they catch a demon being merciful or slothful [ or it would appear greedy, is Hagendi just being used to find those demons who are so that they can be done in?] Adam Canning Dahak@Compuserve.Com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 08:33:36 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Malakim of Creation From: Walter Milliken >Does the angel of Eli get to pick the form of the created matter? Can he create water as ice? How about O2 as LOX? Or anything at a sufficient density to create a mini-black hole?< I am reasonably certain that any black hole made within the limits of Abracadara is going to be to small for use. Since he can only create about 12 grams [ 1/10th of an ounce?] of black hole its radius is going to be about the size of a quark. It is also likely to evaporate before becoming any bigger since it's gravitational radius is a bit small to absorb much. Neutronium has the problem that it may well not be base matter considering what you have to do to normal materials to make it. The same goes but less so for black holes. Californium which has a half life of an Ofanite of Janus's attention span on the other hand might be a rare precious metal... Acbracadabra implies that the greater the value of the material the less you can make of it. [Black holes, Neutronium, Californium, Antimatter and similar have a very high market value, limited by the almost total lack of supply.] Adam Canning Dahak@compuserve.Com " Im sure I had that Quantum Black Hole here a moment ago." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 08:54:30 -0400 (EDT) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> Questions about Lilim > >I'm reading through the sourcebook, and I come across this line, "To > >invoke a resonance, a celestial must make a d666 roll equal to his > >Perception (for angels and Lilim)..." Does this mean that Lilim perceive > >the Symphony the same way Angels do, and don't exist in their own little > >selfish Symphonies? > > There are two schools of thought about that... I tend to waffle -- they > can perceive the True Symphony, but also have their own little personal > theme that rings louder for them. I like this quite a bit. Enough that I'm going to use it. My argument is that the Lilim were never Angels that Fell, so some part of them, when created, still hears the True Symphony. The world must be cool and funky for Lilim. > >So I decided, for my purposes, that the answer to this was a YES, but I > >started wondering, where do Lilim come from? Yeah, it says that Lilith > >creates them, but how? > > Well, it involves Forces. And maybe some other tricks... Here's where my rational came from, from "Hebrew Myths" by Robert Graves and Raphael Patai: Adam complained to God: "I have been deserted by my helpmeet." God at once sent the angels Senoy, Sanseno and Semangelof to fetch Lilith back. They found her beside the Red Sea, a region abounding in lascivious demons, to whom she bore 'lilim' at the rate of more than one hundred a day. "Return to Adam without delay," the angels said, "or we will drown you!" Lilith asked: "How can I return to Adam and live like an honest housewife, after my stay beside the Red Sea?" Hmmmmmmmmmmm. Dunno. I suppose either way you cut it, the Lilim come directly from Lilith, regardless of how they come about. Somewhere in there, 9 forces and some mojo music is involved. > I've been thinking they're close to that, though not quite -- they > get stuck at odds with each other often enough that they can't let > themselves get *too* attached to their siblings. When you could > end up being Geased "to help *my* goals to the *utmost* of your > abilities," you might wind up having to betray your sisters... > > Now, if it were a Geas what made you do it, they might be able > to forgive you, but it does put a crimp in trusting anyone... I'm not sure how they would handle this. Maybe Betrayal is sort of like in the Mob novels I'm so fond of, where they do something unbelievably nasty to you, like tie you to a chair and leave you listening to the Best of Yanni for days on end. Or they just scorn you for a while. But I can see Lilim being pretty tolerant of, "Oh, that was because of a Geas. Yeah, well, happens to everyone." As for trust, I don't think any sort of information network would be built on trust, as much as it would be built on pure favors and exchanges of information. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:03:12 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Questions about Lilim > > Lilim _are_ demons. > > Hey, I've got Lilim who will make a distinction that they're *different* > from yer run-of-the-mill, dime-a-dozen demons... Okay, so they're > demonic... They're no more generic demons than Habbalah... };) Hey, this brings up something... are you gonna write up something with the Lilith Fair (I think that's what it's called... that fem-performer music thing that's going around the country.) C'mon, _someone_ has to do something with this! - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:07:51 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Asmodeus Hit Squads > > Again the Law of Threes! It's almost as pervasive as the Law of Fives. I'm > > still trying to reconcile the two Laws. Dunno why, just mental I suppose. > > They work in tandem to each other. The Law of Five, three times, equals > fifteen. The Law of Three, five times, equals fifteen. > > I suspect that Archangels and Demon Princes possess 15 Forces. 15 forces? Fifteen?! They laugh (HAH!) at beings with only 15 forces! (On a more netreppy sorta note, take a look at Orc in the NPC section... 16 forces and he's just a servitor of Jean.) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:59:16 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Questions about Lilim On Jul 28, 7:04pm, Walter Milliken wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Questions about Lilim > [johnk:] > > Your sisterhood network sounds like a neat idea... I bet > >you there is a _massive_ bulletin board hanging on a wall somewhere > >in Lilith's domain just for this. > > Ah, John, Lilith isn't supposed to *have* a domain, at least in Hell -- > the book says she didn't want one. Lowercase 'domain', not uppercase 'Principality'. (Nitpicking, to be sure, but I have to save face somehow!) :) ;) :) Apartment? Townhouse? Mansion? Okay, maybe not! - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:05:12 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Questions about Lilim > Well, maybe things are a little confusing... Lilith *can't* be > Cain's mother - remember, she was cast out (or ran, whatever)! How could > he murder Abel if they weren't being raisen together?? Cain is the first > child of Adam and Eve - and some texts say he was son of Eve, but not of > Adam!! However, these same texts say the Serpent Eve's met was a > metaphor for...you know... :-) Anyway, that's what I follow... You can > have your own canon... Oh, limited mortals! Why not let Lilith be Cain's _father_. ;) We all know that AA/DP are not gender-limited. Perhaps she was trying to seduce her 'sister' away from vile bondage. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 08:33:39 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #263 > wrote: >Is it reasonable to have a Superior say "For this mission I give you this >Holy Gun to slay the Demon and this briefcase of unmarked nonsequential >$20's to cover expenses." Yes, but he's more likely to expect you to have setup a way of getting those mundane resources you need. >Why hasn't Marc set up an international bank with universal ATM and EFPOST >facilities to bankroll Divine operations a la Matt Wagner's MAGE? Marc has, but you need the Head of a PIN attunement to use it. Adam Canning Dahak@Compuserve. Com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:31:53 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Non-Omnipotent God > Possibly. On the other hand, who can fathom the means and motives of an > omnipotent being? > > Actually, I'm of the view that God is a being with "limited omnipotence". > Which is to say, once He sets events in motion, things *can* happen that He > neither anticipated nor intended. Now of course He *could* have anticipated > them, prevented them, and even undone them after the fact if He really > wanted to. But I see Him as a bit of an experimenter.....He created the > universe, now he wants to see how it all turns out. Earth is a pet project, > and He considers free will to be a very important part of the > project....which precludes Him from interfering *too* much. So now and then > He puts a word in with the angels, but for the most part, He leaves them > alone to sort themselves out. The fun part about 'God as Experimenter' or 'God as Builder' is when humans aren't the _final_ product... ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:47:46 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Angels & Religion At 12:36 AM -0400 7/29/97, Gregory Littmann wrote: >>>Because every other group has cultural tendencies. >> >>Every other human group. > >Right, but celestial minds seem to be pretty human-like. In Nomine does >not give them particularly alien psychologies. They're going to get more alien. Trust me. O:::) }:::> >>>> I'd suspect there are *individual* tendencies, or Choiral >>>> tendencies, or Superior-based tendencies... But I don't think >>>> those are "culture" in that sense. >>> >>> Even if there are individual tendencies, it would be nice to know which >>>way most individuals go. Is the angel who goes to church religiously >>>every Sunday an eccentric or the norm? >> >>#1: pick for your campaign. #2: depends on Superior. If you serve >>Gabriel, who has a warm spot for Islam, then you probably don't >>go to church. > >Sure - but you might hang around a mosque on Fridays. Exactly! If there's one around. >> If you serve Dominic or Laurence, you probably will >> at least think about it as part of your Role. > >Maybe. Maybe not. We're not really told. We know that these angels >support Christianity for humans, but not how they feel about Christianity >for angels - or indeed, for archangels. You get more of that, actually, starting with Night Music -- there's a certain amount of what Laurence sees in the Church... >> > Even if there are Choiral or Superior based tendencies, I think that >> >these will have large effects on the way Angels live their lives. Thus, >> >we should be told about them. If Angels think that going to church is >> >right, they are going to *be* there every Sunday. >> >> I think that's pinning stuff down a little too much -- as a PC and >> potential GM, I don't want to say that there's any one "this is >> Truth" human religion. > >Goodness no! I wouldn't want that either. But the religious habits of >angels can be dealt with without making a judgement over that. Can they? I would think that saying that angels do or don't tend to follow human religions *would* be "endorsing" a viewpoint of which ones are more true to the angels. You might gain some clues from what Nicole says: "[Angels are Christian] no more than the universe is Christian." Of course, she serves Gabriel, who likes Islam, so... >> If an individual angel chooses to believe >> more in one religion than another, or chooses to go to a church >> to celebrate their connection to the Divine, then that's one >> thing, but I don't want the rules to dictate what angels think. > >Nor would I, any more than I would want rules in any other game to thrust >a single religion and religious code on all characters. But I do want >every game to tell me about how religion fits in with the setting. If I >were to play a game set in feudal Japan, I would like a rundown of >religions practices and beliefs that are common at the time. I want the >same for a game set among angels. Hrm. I don't know if "don't dictate" and "common beliefs" *can* co-exist in this rulebook. Religious themes are *so* central to it, that any "tendency" statement will probably be taken as a "Look, the book says *these* religions are followed! These must be Truth in the game universe!" Currently, there's even doubt that what the angels *do* believe is True -- maybe Yaweh *is* just a jumped-up Ethereal God who made it big! >> *MY* opinion is that angels probably don't bother with the trappings >> of human religions. They already have a connection to the Divine -- >> they hear the True Symphony. They have Hearts that radiate the love >> the Divine has for them as individual instruments. They serve >> Words, aspects of all of the universe, aspects of God Itself. Why >> would they bother with the trappings of human religions en masse? > >To answer that one, I would have to know why humans bother with the >trappings of religion en masse. Perhaps just to keep them in closer >contact with God. Because humans don't *have* Hearts to radiate love to them, or hear the True Symphony... >Why should angels believe *less* in the usefulness of >prayer than humans do? They can hear when Divine Interventions happen, and know *exactly* how common and uncommon they are? They know that their Superiors only show up and help when they're called -- and sometimes not even then... (And sometimes they're not very helpful, even if they do show...) And, well, they *are* angels. They're the instruments of God answering human prayers. It seems a little silly for them to do much prayer except when under stress. Worship, now -- thanks-giving and celebration of the Glory of the Ineffable One's creation, and that kind of stuff... I can see angels doing *that* easy. Novalis' angels do it in gardens and forests, Jordi's do it far from human civilization, Michael's do it in the middle of a duel, Laurence's do it in churches and when their swords are striking down a demon-vessel, Eli's do it everywhere (and we do mean *do* *it* *everywhere*!), Gabriel's do it around bonfires... >> >> The thing about angels and demons is that they don't just *believe* >> >> there's a God of some sort, they *KNOW* it. >> > >> >Christians are still supposed to go to church, nomatter *how* strong their >> >faith is. (O.K., I'm generalising about Christians, but as a rule of >> >thumb, they believe this to be true). >> >> But this isn't the same -- it's still *FAITH*. No proof. Angels *know*. >> They know it every time they ascend to Heaven. They know it whenever >> they see their Hearts. They don't *need* much in the way of Faith. >> (Maybe Faith in the Great Eneffable Plan...) > >Neither does anyone who has seen a miracle, but they are usually not >excused church attendence. Yeah, but can an ordinary human say, "I know it was a miracle -- I heard the Symphony ring out"? An angel can. They *live* in Heaven. They *perform* miracles. >I believe that church is supposed to do you some kind of spiritual >good. Christ himself was not averse to having a pray. So maybe he wasn't an angel... >I don't mean to imply that there really *was* a Christ in the In >Nomine universe, just that it is unclear that proof and religious >practices are mutually exclusive. I'm not sure that basing this on *human* levels of proof is a good model, is all. If you had a Heart that radiated all of the Deity's love and kindness, would you go to church as anything but a group- company thing, or would you sit quietly and contemplate your Heart for a while? >> >> Angels probably *do* pray under stress -- "Oh, God, let me get this >> >> grenade *right* into that demon's car and not hit the school bus" -- >> >> but it's probably only the most heartfelt of prayers. >> > >> >Why not pray all day? Maybe spending all day every day singing the Lord's >> >praises in a magnificent voice is a perfectly good vocation for an Angel. >> >> And it is -- just not the ones who are assigned to Earth. > >But if it is such a good thing to praise God, why do Angels assigned on >earth not consider doing so from time to time? They aren't *that* busy. If they aren't that busy, then why not? And who says they *don't* praise God? They just don't ask for favors. And they probably don't feel the need to go to a church to do it -- as I mentioned above, I figure they are most moved to "religious feelings" when around something that symbolizes their Superior's Word. >> >> What an >> >> angel in church is probably doing is sending up "good thoughts;" >> >> heavier on the "thanking the Symphony for the glory around us" than >> >> asking for stuff. Angels *give* stuff/luck, they don't ask. >> > >> > They could ask for help in helping others - praying for strength and so >> >forth. They could even pray for others directly. >> >> I'm not sure why they'd do that -- *they're* the ones who are supposed >> to be down there being the answer to mortal prayers. > >As best they can - but God could do it so much better. This is why a >doctor who thinks she has been called to tend to the poor might still pray >for them. You're going humanistic again. A *Soldier* might think that way, of course. And an angel might think "good thoughts," and might even send up an informal prayer -- but I just don't see them in churches going "And please keep little Timmy out of trouble, and Mrs. Smith needs something to brighten her day, and young Jane is going through some tough times right now..." I mean, if some PC angel did that, what GM could resist having a voice in the angel's head say, "Okay, so why aren't *you* out there watching over Timmy, getting flowers for Mrs. Smith, and helping Jane weather the tough times? You're the angel on the ground, you're there and aware of their problems so you can help them -- that's why *I* put you there!" >> Considering how Archangels act, angels might want to be careful >>about praying -- they wouldn't want God to think they were trying >>to pass the buck and not do their jobs! > >Yeah, its true that Archangels are not too fond of being bothered. But >then again, they don't have infinite power. Does the In Nomine God? *Reeeeaaaaallly*? [...] >I'm not insisting that they all agree. I just think that they will have >opinions and practices. Sure! But they may be too varied to be able to give a broad over-view... Look at p. 138, the Eternal City: The Halls of Worship... "*EVERY* corporeal creed is represented there, both by its patron angel and by the blessed souls of human followers." >Besides, which human religion is true is not >directly the point. We aren't told how angels relate to religion at >*all*. Do they even think that religions are *supposed* to be true? Do >they think that religion is just for humanity or for everyone? I suspect that the beliefs of angels are a religion all their own -- the GM needs to decide what's true in his campaign (whether the demons are rebels or traitors, for instance) and skew things to fit... And there are hints -- patron angels of *all* religions; Nicole's explanation about the Symphony; the conflict about Islam, etc. >>>And after thousands of years of thinking about it (or more), >>>there should be schools of thought. >> >> So invent them yourself, to suit yourself and your gaming group. You're >> not going to get The Truth About Religion from a gaming book!! > >I don't want the Truth About Religion. I just want to know how angels >generally relate to religion in In Nomine. Without some nod to >religion, its all too easy for the game to devolve into a >super-hero game with factions. I think it would be able to do that anyway. :-p I'd rather work on the religious aspects myself, frankly -- among other reasons, I'm decidedly non-traditional in my personal beliefs... If the game-book seemed to emphasize one religion as "more true to angels," I'd have a harder time taking it seriously. There's already a certain amount of griping that it doesn't *include* some very important religions (Jewish beliefs are kind of glossed over, for instance) in the lists by name... OTOH, if you really want me to, I can go through and drag out all the little bits that refer to religion and cite them! - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:07:27 +1000 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN>Paradox Angels Thomas Davidson wrote: > > > Incidentally, if you think Eris could be fun, wait until I work out > > the role of J.R. "Bob" Dobbs in this whole Symphony thing... > > > You don't mean "Bob" from the Church of the Sub-Genius? :-) Who else, PINK-boy?! - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia Jimbo, king of the private school kids The girls from PLC, who identify with his tortured soul 'Cause they've just dropped boyfriend number three He was Kent from Xavier College, in HSC he got an A for English But between Jimbo and William Blake He hasn't the fucking brains to distinguish TISM, "Morrison Hostel" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 97 10:59 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Playing Dead >>> Since an Celestial doesn't have to breath and has high resistance to >>> enviornmental factors like heat and cold, How easy is it for a Celestial to >>> fake death? >> >> Actually, Celestial vessels _do_ have to breathe. >> >>Oops da Ogre, who doesn't remember where that fact is mentioned, though > >p. 48, Celestial Vessels box. Second paragraph. > >The high resistance is non-canon, methinks, I seem to recall John making a canon ruling on this a while back, though I'm not sure. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:26:54 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Malakim of Creation Adam Canning wrote: > I am reasonably certain that any black hole made within the limits of > Abracadara is going to be to small for use. Since he can only create > about 12 grams [ 1/10th of an ounce?] of black hole its radius is > going to be about the size of a quark. Yes, and when it evaporates, it emits equal quantities of matter and antimatter, with the net effect of turning that 12 grams of matter into pure energy. *BOOM* Eli ain't gonna like it... ("Okay, I left Europe here yesterday. What happened?") Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:03:55 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Fluff (Re: IN> Re: Non-omnipotent God) At 8:06 AM +0000 7/28/97, Hermes Trismegistus wrote: [...] >Lucifer stands for all of the people (and Celestials) who want to decide their >own fate, without being watched over by the likes of Dominic and Laurence >(straight laced, by-the-book, (possibly homophobic) dullards [OK, AA Beth may >have a thing for Laurence, but he's about as exciting as a daytime talk >show]). [Did I say he was a fun person to talk to? I just said he was Yummy. The sort of person that you see walking down the street, and you go, "Mmmm! Cute!" (And then the Seraph of Destiny goes pale and says, "Uh, that's Laurence." And one's Renegade goes "eep!" and hides...) But it's probably a case of "Why are all the cute ones boring Malakim, huh?"] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:12:20 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: Novalis stuff (Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy) On Mon, 28 Jul 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 10:00 AM -0500 7/28/97, Shadowcat wrote: > >On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, David Edelstein wrote: > > > >> >>>Marriage I could see, to an extent...there are too many herbal > >> abortificants, though.<<< > >> > >> There are herbal drugs and poisons too....Novalis isn't automatically in > >> favor of every purpose to which a plant can be put. > > > > Why not? She would use the herbal drugs for healing the sick, or > >recreation, and the poisons to kill off demons, and things that hurt her > >plants. > > More accurate, I'd think, to say that Novalis isn't automatically > in favor of every use to which plants *are* put -- she may approve > of poisoning a demon, but not all plant poisons are used exclusively > against demons. Fer instance, she isn't happy with Fleurity 'cause > he draws attention from the "Good" uses of plants, and towards the > "Bad" uses... > > (IIRC my Night Music well enough...) HHMMM. Good point, and the one I was hoping to convay. I haven't gotten Night Music yet, will probably pick it up at Gen-Con, if i still have some money, or they ask me to help at the SJgames booth. Shadowcat ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 20:58:34 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> RELICS CONTEST -- FINAL CALL! Just a reminder, the deadline for submitting entries in the Steve Jackson Games Relics Contest is July 31 -- Thursday. Any entries received after midnight will not be accepted. So polish 'em up and get 'em in now! - -David Edelstein, Relics Contest Administrator ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:31:57 -0400 (EDT) From: IQJason@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: IN> Questions about Lilim "Hey, this brings up something... are you gonna write up something with the Lilith Fair (I think that's what it's called...that fem-performer music thing that's going around the country.) C'mon, _someone_ has to do something with this!" Sarah McLachlan as Seneschal of a travelling musical tether of Freedom. Interesting. Although I'm just peeved that the Indigo Girls and Suzanne Vega didn't play the dates in the New York area. yours, sha na na na na shame on you, - -J ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:29:59 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy Gregory Littmann writes: "I just don't understand what you are saying. By "aspect", you obviously don't just mean "property" or "feature", because there is nothing to stop a property being held by numerous things, some of which predate the others. So what is it that you mean?" and Casca writes: "But what are you really saying? It sounds like Schroedinger -- "The cat is both alive AND dead." God is many things, but I wouldn't number Uncertain among His attributes." so I'd better try again. By "aspect," I meant an essential, defining feature. Being omnipotent is part of what makes God be God, the way having three sides is an essential characteristic of a triangle. The same is true, on this theory, of goodness. God did not issue a code of morals for some non-moral reason, or for no reason. Nor did God just find Himself confronted with an equally eternal and pre-existing moral code from all eternity. Rather, the code is one of His defining characteristics, like omniscience and omnipotence. Or, to speak with a little more theological precision, perfect knowledge, power, and goodness are things we read out of our very incomplete grasp of the original, primordial perfection that is God's nature. (And this relates to game mechanics HOW? What a long, strange trip it's been.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:31:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: RE: IN> Asmodeus Hit Squads On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Hermes Trismegistus wrote: > And of course 15 equals 13 in base 8. Oh dear, I think I have to stop reading > Illuminatus! before it really starts affecting me :P Fnord. > >I would use Lilim here, myself. Rengade demons are probably loaded with > >Discord, and there's a good chance that it's a Celestial discord with > >some sort of need or desire which the Lilim can sense. > > Yeah, but that may not necessarily be true if they have the discord Anger, > unless he/she senses that the demons is thinking "I really need to break > someone's head!" Heck, I'd allow it. Then again, I tend to see Lilim as 'Counselor Troi, Sex Kitten.' "I sense that you need to be spanked, you naughty boy!" - -- Casca (bertishg@db.erau.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:59:29 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Gregory Littmann wrote: > > > > > >>>Marriage I could see, to an extent...there are too many herbal > > > abortificants, though.<<< > > > > > > There are herbal drugs and poisons too....Novalis isn't automatically in > > > favor of every purpose to which a plant can be put. > > > > Why not? She would use the herbal drugs for healing the sick, or > > recreation, and the poisons to kill off demons, and things that hurt her > > plants. > > > But that isn't covering every use to which the plants can be put - you can > also use those poisonous plants to poison innocents. Remember, the herbal > abortificants are being put to a particular use - they are being used in > abortions. Novalis might think the abortificants are fine as a > recreational drink from non-pregnant persons, yet find abortion abhorant. It is impossable to cover every use of everything. Besides most of the herbal abortificants I know of are also toxins, and the line between the dose to cause an abortian and that for killing the mother can be as little as 1 grain. So maybe she isn't saying abortian is OK, just that if you are going to use her stuff, you had better know what you are doing. Another point is that in nature, you tend to have toxins growing next to, or very close to the antidote if you know what you are looking at. Shadowcat ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #267 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.