From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Jul 30 06:51:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA07313 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 06:51:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA04269 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 05:23:19 -0500 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 05:23:19 -0500 Message-Id: <199707301023.FAA04269@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #268 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, July 30 1997 Volume 01 : Number 268 In this digest: RE: IN> Asmodeus Hit Squads Re: IN> Malakim of Creation IN> Re: Superiors and Forces IN> Superiors and Forces Re: IN> Asmodeus Hit Squads Re: IN> Malakim of Creation IN> Novalis & Plants Re: IN> Malakim of Creation Re: IN> Malakim of Creation Re: IN> Questions about Lilim Re: IN> Questions about Lilim Re: IN> Questions about Lilim Re: IN> Questions about Lilim Re: IN> Non-Omnipotent God RE: IN> Asmodeus Hit Squads Re: IN> Asmodeus Hit Squads Re: IN> Questions about Lilim Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy IN> Angels & Religion Re: IN>Paradox Angels Re: IN>Paradox Angels Re: IN> Questions about Lilim Re: IN> Questions about Lilim IN> Is Reality Subjective? RE: IN> Asmodeus Hit Squads Re: re IN> Making a living ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:47:12 -0400 (EDT) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: RE: IN> Asmodeus Hit Squads > > Again the Law of Threes! It's almost as pervasive as the Law of Fives. I'm > > still trying to reconcile the two Laws. Dunno why, just mental I suppose. > > They work in tandem to each other. The Law of Five, three times, equals > fifteen. The Law of Three, five times, equals fifteen. > > I suspect that Archangels and Demon Princes possess 15 Forces. That's awful low. I don't know about dredging up a "how many forces does a Demon Prince Have," but that's what, 48 character points from a 9 force character. A PC can become a DEMON PRINCE or an ARCHANGEL after playing a while. I'm not real hip on that. Well, hmmm. Too each their own. I believe the Superiors have their own scale for power, which is immeasurable in Force-units. Maybe 15 Force-Superior-Units would do. > > Would a Balseraph really be necessary considering that you mentioned below > > that the sentence and verdict have already been decreed by Asmodeus? But they > > really would be quite well suited to the role of "You and I need to have a > > little chat. We hear you've been a naughty boy Clement". > > I would use Lilim here, myself. Rengade demons are probably loaded with > Discord, and there's a good chance that it's a Celestial discord with > some sort of need or desire which the Lilim can sense. Probably a good idea. I had other uses for the Balseraph in question which required it to be a Balseraph, but the next group will probably be headed up by a Lilim. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:28:53 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Malakim of Creation On Jul 28, 3:56pm, Walter Milliken wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Malakim of Creation > >> >>Wood would be Novalis' domain. > >> > > >> > This isn't *Mage*. Besides look at those attunements a bit > >> >harder. One of them allows the servant of Eli to change things into > >> >organic or even living substances. > >> > >> But that's a different attunement. The creation one allows creation of > >> *simple* substances. Wood is not simple, just natural. > > > >Simple as in no mechanical parts, I think. > > I've been interpreting the Abracadabra attunement as being limited to > mostly inorganic substances and some simple organics (I might allow > methane and CO2, for example). This is how I have taken it. For example 'rock' can be quite complex in structure and isn't nearly as uniform as it seems (though not as complex as the simples 'life' compounds!) As Walter points out, all the stuff on the Abracadabra list have been inorganic compounds while the Transubstantiation specifically mentions organic compounds and structures (such as entire LIVE insects!) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 97 10:58:22 CDT From: U09549@UICVM.UIC.EDU Subject: IN> Re: Superiors and Forces I wrote earlier: >I try not to quantify the superiors in terms of stats (as the book >suggests) because the PC's really shouldn't be a personal threat to >any superior. If my final goal with my players was to let them become >Archangels or Demon Princes I might change my mind, but I really >don't see that as the point of the game. In my mind, PC's are not >threat to the superiors (thier plans are a totally different subject) >and the superiors are no threat to the big two (and if that doesn't >put your players in awe of Lightbringer and 'The Man with The Plan' >I don't know what would). Thinking about this a little bit I think I overstated when it comes to the superiors and the big two (consider Michael whipped Lucifer's ass himself). So this changes my thoughts slightly. I would say that superiors would be minimum 18 force celestials, but they would vary widely above that (and I think I am low balling the number of forces at that). If most superiors were near that range (which I would argue against) then by virtue of getting his butt whipped by Michael Lucifer would be near 18 forces. I don't think anyone believes that. So perhaps the less militant of the superiors are a little weaker with the more militant ones being mich higher. 'The Man with The Plan' should still be beyond the scope of all the superiors. If they teamed up on him, who knows. But even considering this takes away from the focus of the game, humanity. I think I would rather leave these types of things untouched and just deal with the celestials interacting with humanity. More thoughts, Oscar ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 97 09:47:11 CDT From: Oscar Subject: IN> Superiors and Forces Casca wrote (I believe): >>I suspect that Archangels and Demon Princes possess 15 Forces. Kurt responded: >Sounds about right, just big enough to squash miserable underlings, but not >too big so as to draw too much attention to themselves. At least, demonically >speaking }:) I don't know if I see it that way. This seems like it terribly understates the power of AA's and DP's. I think 15 forces would be veteran PC's (possibly on Earth since early on) with the AA's and DP's checking in at well over 18 forces. The mere apearance of a superior, without dealing with issues of forces, causes a disturbance twice as severe as killing a human (3 times in celestial form). It's more than just the forces too. Superiors are supposed to be at a higher plane of understanding and perceiving the symphony. They have a different relationship with the symphony and, I would argue, disposing of a superior (be it by PC or other superior) would cause major repurcussions in the symphony. I try not to quantify the superiors in terms of stats (as the book suggests) because the PC's really shouldn't be a personal threat to any superior. If my final goal with my players was to let them become Archangels or Demon Princes I might change my mind, but I really don't see that as the point of the game. In my mind, PC's are not threat to the superiors (thier plans are a totally different subject) and the superiors are no threat to the big two (and if that doesn't put your players in awe of Lightbringer and 'The Man with The Plan' I don't know what would). I grant, through my superiors, tons of flexibility to my players. But they are well aware if the lowliest superior shows up they are royally outclassed (even having numbers in their favor 3 or 4 to 1). I wouldn't hesitate to say that my Malakim of War player would seriously consider taking dissonance rather than face a Demon Prince (knowing that he would probably be back anyway). Just Some Thoughts, Oscar ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:36:09 -0400 (EDT) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> Asmodeus Hit Squads > I'm not sure that there would *always* be Game Triads, in the > way that Judgment Triads are the common sight. Asmodeus' > Servitors can recognize their own Band-members, and spot the > dissonance of those demons, so they don't have to have anyone > asking questions (the Seraph). I've been thinking you can get > them in groups of 1-3 -- they just have to be able to justify > to *Asmodeus* real well why they offed some demon, if they work > solo. If Asmodeus tells them to off some demon, then they don't need to justify it. I would see a big bureacracy, where something like that would be handed down as an edict. But I doubt a demon by themselves would be able to off someone else in any sort of permenant sense, if they were just the run of the mill 9 force type. > > I suspect that they're probably often paired -- a member of the > Suspect's Band, and a Djinn to be a bruiser and a tracker. I would see them as at least paired. Maybe to cover each other, but probably to watch each other. > (In fact, I've been writing some stuff about a couple of partners... > Lilim and Djinn, of the Game...) > > If the Suspect is too tough, though ("Hey, he's not only Renegade, > he's hanging around with a bunch of angels to protect him! Gak!"), > then it's time to call in more help... At *least* a Calabite. And, of course, the Calabite giggles. I don't know what it is with me and Calabites, but they always have an evil giggle going. I suspect I'm losing it. > > That Triads would watch over each other is a point, though. Maybe > Asmodeus is less paranoid about his going Renegade? Angels can > Fall without a conscious act of will (sort of), but demons can't > run off without taking care of Hearts first... And Asmodeus is > probably quite careful with his Servitors' Hearts... I would assume, if Asmodeus believes his servitors to whom he has entrusted the power of the Inquisition to, to become Renegade, he'd probably squeeze their Hearts and take care of them in a very VERY personal sense. My thinking was that the servants of Asmodeus don't ALL go running around hunting Renegades. That requires pulling Earth duty, and even basic Earth duty requires showing quite a bit of loyalty from a normal Demon. Those who run around executing Renegades are going to be those who have proved themselves over time to be exactingly loyal. AND EVEN THEN, Asmodeus feels the need to send them in groups, so they will not be tempted and they will be properly paranoid. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:53:50 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Malakim of Creation > > Since anti-matter seems to be against the local rules of > >the Symphony (If God wanted things made of antimatter, he would > >have CREATED them that way, by gum!), a gamemaster can rule against > >it with a calm heart. Or it can be a brand new servitor attunement > >and it makes a _minute_ quantity. > > Actually, small amounts of antimatter are around all the time, produced > by radioactive decay. (There are several isotopes that beta-decay with > an e+, and I think there are a few where an anti-proton is part of the > decay process.) So the basic particles, at least *are* part of the > "local rules of the Symphony".... Heh. Okay, the servant of Eli can make single positrons and the occasional anti-proton for an Essence. ;) > There are also other "natural" materials like neutronium that could have > nasty effects if manifested in quantity on Earth. That's the problem with defining those attunements as volume rather than weight! (Of course, if you said weight you get other problems. You know how _much_ hydrogen gas, by volume, equals ten pounds... yeek!) Of course, that might fall under the 'local rules' paradigm. > Does the angel of Eli get to pick the form of the created matter? Can > he create water as ice? How about O2 as LOX? Or anything at a > sufficient density to create a mini-black hole? Hmmmmm... I prefer to leave these things to a GM's discretion but I'm willing to take a crack at them (just to see how far the rules will bend!). The following assumes that 'ounce' for Abracadabra refers to the weight ounce, rather than the volume ounce (not a good assumption, really, since the rest of it is in volumes; on the other hand, they mention rare minerals and precious metals which _are_ measured by weight). If we define the 'substance' of a black hole (or neutronium) in the 'rare mineral' category, that means you get the whopping tenth of an ounce. A black hole that small will eventually evaporate into nothingness (it's true! Amazing science factoid #437) before it can swallow the planet. That much neutronium is a pinprick at best. It might do very, very minor damage (actually a pinprick would have a LARGER diameter than the path of the neutronium!) and it would, of course, tunnel it's way down and out of reach. We still have the antimatter problem, though. Wait, we can be rules lawyers! The Abracadabra Attunement says "The angel can create base _matter_ from nothingness." (Italics mine.) So ANTI-matter is off limits! Whew! Now, you can still do a LOT of damage with even a tenth of an ounce of merely rare minerals/substances. It only takes a microgram of plutonium in your lungs to mess up your day for the rest of your life. Fortunately, Abracadabra mentions at least twice that 'common' is what they are going for with the larger amounts. O2 is common, LOX is not common! This is a perfectly valid difference since a pile of carbon would certainly fall under common, earthly substance, while diamonds are most definitely rare minerals! If someone wants to make a tenth of an ounce of red quarks or gravitons, I'll take out behind the barn and give them additional lessons (backed up with my Clue-by-Four(tm))! > > Obviously the attunement should have *some* flexibility, but there are > going to need to be limits, too. Drawing a line on these sorts of > questions is a bit tricky.... - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:48:36 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Novalis & Plants >>>Why not? She would use the herbal drugs for healing the sick, or recreation, and the poisons to kill off demons, and things that hurt her plants.<<< There are legitimate uses of drugs and poisons, and not so legitimate uses. I'm sure Novalis distinguishes between them. (She wouldn't be that quick to use poisons even on demons.) Personally, I'm inclined to think Novalis is pro-life, though not in a raving fundie way. - -David http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/Innomine.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 97 16:20 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Malakim of Creation >>Does the angel of Eli get to pick the form of the created matter? Can >he create water as ice? How about O2 as LOX? Or anything at a >sufficient density to create a mini-black hole?< > >I am reasonably certain that any black hole made within the limits of >Abracadara is going to be to small for use. Since he can only create about >12 grams [ 1/10th of an ounce?] of black hole its radius is going to be >about the size of a quark. It is also likely to evaporate before becoming >any bigger since it's gravitational radius is a bit small to absorb much. Right, but if I remember right, the evaporation process is likely to generate highly-energetic photons; i.e., most of the mass will be converted to energy in the process. Not *quite* as bad as straight antimatter, but in the same order of magnitude, maybe. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:21:55 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Malakim of Creation > >Is sodium metal a simple substance? How about phospherous? > > They are both elements, it don't get no simpler. From a scientific standpoint. But does Eli use a scientific standpoint? I'd lay money on no... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com Better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven. - Milton ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:06:26 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Questions about Lilim > Oh, limited mortals! Why not let Lilith be Cain's _father_. ;) > We all know that AA/DP are not gender-limited. Perhaps she was > trying to seduce her 'sister' away from vile bondage. Good one...I like it. Very...strange imagery (I am trying to imagine what Lilith would look like as a male). Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com Better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven. - Milton ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:06:26 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Questions about Lilim > Hey, this brings up something... are you gonna write up > something with the Lilith Fair (I think that's what it's called... > that fem-performer music thing that's going around the country.) > C'mon, _someone_ has to do something with this! My guess is Kobal and Nybbas pulled this one off together - a massive prank with Lilith as the butt of the joke. Strictly spare time stuff, at least at the start... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com Better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven. - Milton ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:58:17 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Questions about Lilim At 9:59 AM -0400 7/29/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >On Jul 28, 7:04pm, Walter Milliken wrote: >> Subject: Re: IN> Questions about Lilim >> [johnk:] >> > Your sisterhood network sounds like a neat idea... I bet >> >you there is a _massive_ bulletin board hanging on a wall somewhere >> >in Lilith's domain just for this. >> >> Ah, John, Lilith isn't supposed to *have* a domain, at least in Hell -- >> the book says she didn't want one. > > Lowercase 'domain', not uppercase 'Principality'. (Nitpicking, >to be sure, but I have to save face somehow!) :) ;) :) Apartment? >Townhouse? Mansion? Okay, maybe not! Guildhouse. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:58:54 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Questions about Lilim At 10:03 AM -0400 7/29/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >> > Lilim _are_ demons. >> >> Hey, I've got Lilim who will make a distinction that they're *different* >> from yer run-of-the-mill, dime-a-dozen demons... Okay, so they're >> demonic... They're no more generic demons than Habbalah... };) > > Hey, this brings up something... are you gonna write up >something with the Lilith Fair (I think that's what it's called... >that fem-performer music thing that's going around the country.) >C'mon, _someone_ has to do something with this! Huh? I'd love to, but know nothing about it. :-( Think Lil herself is going to be present? O;> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:21:55 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Non-Omnipotent God > Just as an illustration, is there no dramatic tension in an RPG > set in World War Two, just because, as an historical game, the > winners and losers are pre-determined? Not as much. If I were running a WWII game, I would not let the end be predetermined - it makes the player's actions moot on a higher scale. If they end up stopping the bombing of Hiroshima, I will let that happen, come what may. Another problem is that of the moral high ground - angel players know they are playing on the right side. In a world with a non-Omnipotent god, they are less certain. (Note that little of this has to do with demons, who are generally too obsessed with politics and power in the here and now to worry much about the morality of it. A fun game, but very different.) Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com Better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven. - Milton ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 23:56:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: RE: IN> Asmodeus Hit Squads On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Emily K. Dresner wrote: > > I suspect that Archangels and Demon Princes possess 15 Forces. > > That's awful low. I don't know about dredging up a "how many forces does > a Demon Prince Have," but that's what, 48 character points from a 9 force > character. A PC can become a DEMON PRINCE or an ARCHANGEL after playing a > while. I'm not real hip on that. Sorry; I wasn't being entirely clear, especially since I don't use the IN game mechanics. I meant to say they had a rating of 15 for each 'group' of Forces -- i.e., 15 Corporeal, 15 Ethereal, and 15 Celestial Forces. > Well, hmmm. Too each their own. I believe the Superiors have their own > scale for power, which is immeasurable in Force-units. Maybe 15 > Force-Superior-Units would do. Of course, I tend to avoid giving stats to NPCs. I have seen the phrase "If it's got stats, we can kill it" demonstrated too many times for me to fall into that trap. It is a lesson a good many Rifts GMs would do well to learn.... > Probably a good idea. I had other uses for the Balseraph in question > which required it to be a Balseraph, F'rinstance? - -- Casca (bertishg@db.erau.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:49:49 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Asmodeus Hit Squads At 10:07 AM -0400 7/29/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >> > Again the Law of Threes! It's almost as pervasive as the Law of Fives. > I'm >> > still trying to reconcile the two Laws. Dunno why, just mental I suppose. >> >> They work in tandem to each other. The Law of Five, three times, equals >> fifteen. The Law of Three, five times, equals fifteen. >> >> I suspect that Archangels and Demon Princes possess 15 Forces. > > 15 forces? Fifteen?! They laugh (HAH!) at beings with >only 15 forces! > (On a more netreppy sorta note, take a look at Orc in >the NPC section... 16 forces and he's just a servitor of Jean.) Superiors make a level 30 disturbance when they appear in celestial form... On the other hand, 15 forces seems to be a lower end for someone to *aspire* to Princedom -- look at Furfur. Though he gets more powerful if he makes it... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:57:48 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Questions about Lilim At 8:54 AM -0400 7/29/97, Emily K. Dresner wrote: [Do Lilim hear the True Symphony or just their personal version?] >> There are two schools of thought about that... I tend to waffle -- they >> can perceive the True Symphony, but also have their own little personal >> theme that rings louder for them. > >I like this quite a bit. Enough that I'm going to use it. Thanks! >My argument is that the Lilim were never Angels that Fell, so some part of >them, when created, still hears the True Symphony. The world must be cool >and funky for Lilim. That's what I've been thinking, aye. Have you seen the INC web-pages yet? The stuff about "Know Thy Enemy" has some stuff in it regarding what Lilim perceive, IMAO. };) >> >So I decided, for my purposes, that the answer to this was a YES, but I >> >started wondering, where do Lilim come from? Yeah, it says that Lilith >> >creates them, but how? >> >> Well, it involves Forces. And maybe some other tricks... [Lilith going off and having a stable of demons and a horde of kids] >Hmmmmmmmmmmm. Dunno. I suppose either way you cut it, the Lilim come >directly from Lilith, regardless of how they come about. Somewhere in >there, 9 forces and some mojo music is involved. It probably depends on how she collects the forces, etc. I see no problem with collecting them in, ah, an intimate manner... >> I've been thinking they're close to that, though not quite -- they >> get stuck at odds with each other often enough that they can't let >> themselves get *too* attached to their siblings. When you could >> end up being Geased "to help *my* goals to the *utmost* of your >> abilities," you might wind up having to betray your sisters... >> >> Now, if it were a Geas what made you do it, they might be able >> to forgive you, but it does put a crimp in trusting anyone... > >I'm not sure how they would handle this. Maybe Betrayal is sort of like >in the Mob novels I'm so fond of, where they do something unbelievably >nasty to you, like tie you to a chair and leave you listening to the Best >of Yanni for days on end. Hey, some people *like* Yanni! Well, some Yanni. You want to drive me frothing, you play "If I could change the world" or "Give me one reason" until I develop the Berserk Discord... >Or they just scorn you for a while. But I can see Lilim being >pretty tolerant of, "Oh, that was because of a Geas. >Yeah, well, happens to everyone." And then muttering, "But you didn't have to enjoy it so much." };) And then there's invoking Geasa in conflict -- *that* *really* ticks the Daughters off. Best not to do that to a sister if you can avoid it... >As for trust, I don't think any sort of information network would be built >on trust, as much as it would be built on pure favors and exchanges of >information. That too -- but information is trust. If you get caught by a Servitor of the Game and told, "You're going to help me track down Lilim Angie, suspected of going Renegade," then you might have to reveal the *existance* of the Great Lilim Network. The Servitor of the Game might even go around tagging all your sisters, tapping the phones, etc.... "Look, a secret Lilim society! They're *all* Renegades!" Something informal, or carefully crafted so that all the real information was in the subtext (and in a way that only Lilim could really understand it, and maybe even only *Free* Lilim, to keep Lilim of the Game away), on the other hand... Definitely. An "unofficial favor" network. Things too "small" to be a real Geas, but woe betide the sister who doesn't play by those rules! - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 23:24:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy > > "I just don't understand what you are saying. By "aspect", you > obviously > don't just mean "property" or "feature", because there is nothing to > stop > a property being held by numerous things, some of which predate the > others. So what is it that you mean?" > > so I'd better try again. By "aspect," I meant an essential, defining > feature. Being omnipotent is part of what makes God be God, the way > having three sides is an essential characteristic of a triangle. The > same is true, on this theory, of goodness. I still don't get it. Just because God has to be good to be God doesn't show that something else can't be good first, or that there can't be facts about what would be good or what bad prior to God's existence. Its an essential feature of a chair that it can be sat upon, but there were rocks that could be sat upon before there were chairs. > God did not issue a code of > morals > for some non-moral reason, or for no reason. Nor did God just find > Himself confronted with an equally eternal and pre-existing moral code > from all eternity. Rather, the code is one of His defining > characteristics, like omniscience and omnipotence. Even if God is essentially omnisicent, this doesn't seem to prevent there being facts to know that are prior to God or which God can only recognise and can't do anything about. We might think that mathematical truths are among these. > (And this relates to game mechanics HOW? I don't think everything on this list need relate to mechanics, but for the record I think it started with a discussion on getting a die with enough sides to determine the damage from a divine kick. > What a long, strange trip it's > been.) > That's what Lucifer said... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:00:37 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Angels & Religion >>>To answer that one, I would have to know why humans bother with the trappings of religion en masse. If you're expecting an RPG to explain why we have religion..... While in the real world many people obviously believe that certain religions ARE absolutely correct, in an In Nomine universe you have to assume that in fact, they're all wrong. Even if, for instance, Dominic and Laurence are right and Jesus Christ WAS sent by God Himself, you can still point out all kinds of errors in every Christian denomination, including Catholicism, with regards to the "reality" of the In Nomine universe. If you're accepting the basic premise of In Nomine, for purposes of the campaign, then you simply can't say that the Roman Catholic religion is correct, or the Southern Baptists or the Methodists or the Orthodox Jews or the First Church of Tolkien Wiccans-- because none of them *really* know what's what, though some of them may be closer to the truth than others (usually depending on how much actual contact they've had with celestials.) >>>Perhaps just to keep them in closer contact with God. Why should angels believe *less* in the usefulness of prayer than humans do?<<< The difference is, angels don't have the often-distorted view of prayers that humans do. They *know* that God does sometimes choose to answer prayers, from humans and angels alike, but that the exact rituals you use aren't likely to make a difference (unlike praying to Archangels....), and that often the likelihood of His responding seems to be irrespective of the faith, works or beliefs of the supplicant. Even an angel of the Sword, for example, who probably supports Roman Catholicism because Laurence does, and may believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, is still aware that the trappings of Roman Catholicism are no more inherently pleasing to God than the trappings of numerous other religions. He might go to Catholic Masses because they're aesthetically pleasing to him, but in an In Nomine universe, the *reality* is that saying prayers in Latin and being baptized in the Roman Catholic Church does NOT give you a special "in" with God....and every angel knows that. They may support a particular faith because they think it's *closer* than all the others, or (more often) because they think it has a utilitarian usefulness in the War. (Dominic, for instance, may support the RCC not so much because he likes their theology more than everyone else's, but because it's large, powerful, and structured, thus giving him the best shot at imposing his rules on mankind, if he can encourage the spread of the Church.) It sounds like what you are looking for is "angel religions". I don't think angels practice religion as humans understand it. Their rituals are based on Words, their beliefs are based on a much deeper understanding of the Symphony-- much of what human religions provide in the way of spirituality has to be accepted on faith, while angels KNOW and therefore don't need faith. Theological disagreements among angels are over much deeper issues-- humans obsess over whether or not one needs to have water sprinkled on one's head in order to go to heaven, or argue about whether this or that specific point of dogma is correct and whether or not believing one way or the other dooms you to Hell. Angels know that such superficial trappings are pretty much irrelevant, and the REAL questions revolve around what God has actually said and done. - -David http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/Innomine.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:30:40 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN>Paradox Angels Hermes Trismegistus wrote: > "Concerning the name of the Paradox Angel: > And this one, but I'm sure she'd object... > > Earl Wajenberg Why not Derek, then?? He is the responsible for our Symphony anyway... Andre ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 02:08:40 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN>Paradox Angels Thomas Davidson wrote: > Concerning the name of the Paradox Angel: > Eris? (Greek for Discord, the whimsical patron goddess of the Discordians) > Ummm, wouldn't Eris be more appropriate as a Demon Prince? I don't think there is a Demon Prince of Paradox - all demons are out there doing this, so Lucifer himself is in charge of that. Of course, this goes easier with the assumption that there's no AA of Paradox either - that God Himself is in charge of it too.... Andre ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 02:18:51 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> Questions about Lilim Emily K. Dresner wrote: > > Well, maybe things are a little confusing... Lilith *can't* > be > > Cain's mother > Well, the reference was from the Dictionary of Angels, and later I > found > it in an interpretation of the Alphabet of Ben Sira. So I didn't just > > pull it out of a hat. :) Ok - It's that I'd never heard such a thing (and the Bible and text like that are no strangers to me...). But I was never much in the cabalistic thing, also... :-) Andre ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 02:24:36 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> Questions about Lilim John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > > Well, maybe things are a little confusing... Lilith *can't* > be > > Cain's mother - remember, she was cast out (or ran, whatever)! How > could > > he murder Abel if they weren't being raisen together?? Cain is the > first > > child of Adam and Eve - and some texts say he was son of Eve, but > not of > > Adam!! However, these same texts say the Serpent Eve's met was a > > metaphor for...you know... :-) Anyway, that's what I follow... You > can > > have your own canon... > > Oh, limited mortals! Why not let Lilith be Cain's _father_. > ;) > We all know that AA/DP are not gender-limited. Perhaps she was trying > > to seduce her 'sister' away from vile bondage. WOW!! That stroke me like a thunder!! I liked it! I can't see much use for it in IN, but my head is already spinning with the possibilities in Vampire... :-) Andre ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 02:16:27 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: IN> Is Reality Subjective? Gregory Littmann wrote: > But God always has final say on what is real and what is not. Even > if > the Technocracy convinced everyone with 100% certainty of whatever > they > want to convince them of, there would still be a God and he would > still > rule the universe. The way He says things are to be is how they are > and > there's nothing that anyone else can do about it. But I think we all agree that once God finished creating the Universe, He just stood watching over it and has done it since then. Whatever comes to be, comes to be - at least concerning humanity without interference. Remember: Mages are humans, are part of the Reality and of the Symphony. They shape it in a more conscious way then Sleepers, but if made within the rules, that's ok. The Symphony goes wherever humanity want it to go. God just don't want Demons disturbing it or Vulgar Mages messing around. But everyone knows that - even the Mages! They just didn't know that what they feared were not just powerful spirits, but Angels... Andre ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 97 23:55:54 UT From: "Hermes Trismegistus" Subject: RE: IN> Asmodeus Hit Squads >>Of course, I tend to avoid giving stats to NPCs. I have seen the phrase "If it's got stats, we can kill it" demonstrated too many times for me to fall into that trap. It is a lesson a good many Rifts GMs would do well to learn....<< What's wrong with giving NPCs stats in Riftrs??? It's basically just a combat wally game, NPCs are designed to die (although I will grant there are probably some exceptions). But it is unfair to compare IN with Rifts, as Rifts is heavily combat-oriented (just like my Wilderness Scout/sniper). Wouldn't it shock the crap out of an angel to fall through a Rift, and be set upon be a platoon of SAMAS and a Juicer patrol? :) Numinous corpus my butt, that angel would be copping Trauma faster than you can say "Rail gun". hahahaha. What about IN Rifts? Angels and demons in power armour and Juicer rigs continue the war in an Apocalyptic Earth!! See Belial with a Plasma Napalm Thrower! Hear Baal say "Ooooh, Rail Gun!" Watch Michael dismantling Full-body Borgs!! Listen to Saminga chatting up Skelebots "So, you come here often shiny??" Laugh as Vapula fills his shorts!! But I digress. Kurt doombu@msn.com "TS Eliot lost his wallet, when he went into town, Serves him right for hanging out with the likes of Ezra Pound" ~Mistah Eliot, He Wanker ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:56:12 +1000 (EST) From: Peter Frederick Subject: Re: re IN> Making a living At 12:04 PM 28/7/97 -0600, Kingsley Lintz wrote: >> you what ever they think you need to complete a mission. Why would they >> send you out under prepared given the information they had to hand? > Several reasons. 1) You should BE prepared; they gave you a >Vessel, that nice Role which you were supposed to be getting your OWN >money, all in proper accordance with the Symphony, with, and let's not >forget about that flaming sword you were issued, hm? 2) You're a favored >servant, granted a much-coveted (*ahem*) job...if you're NOT resourceful >enough to handle it, -ANY- of the Superiors can darned well find someone >who is. They have better things to do, on the whole, than plan out every >step of your mission and make sure things go perfectly...if they were >going to do THAT, they wouldn't need YOU. YMMV, but I find it hard to see an Archangel who knows that a Servitor will not succeed sending that Servitor out on a specific mission. Additionally A Servitor should know when to call for help. You are not the only agent of your side, just one given a larger than normal degree of autonomy (IMHO). >> make up your won mind about Demon Princes :) Although this might mean that > There's always the Paranoia model...give 'em whatever >happens to be at hand that you wanted to get rid of anyway.. OOOOOO, don;t even mention Paranoia . >> >I wrote >> >> Why hasn't Marc set up an international bank with universal ATM and EFPOST >> >> facilities to bankroll Divine operations a la Matt Wagner's MAGE? >> >Kingsly replied >> > Too much mucking about with the Symphony. I expect they >> >occasionally have to STOP Vapula and Nybbas from setting things like that >> >up... >> I can't see too much direct disprution to the Symphony. However you > Are you kidding? The money either has to be actually created >(which will be setting off little Essence blips every time one of these is >accessed), or diverted. If it's diverted, you're not only suddenly >working more in Valefor's domain (something I don't THINK Marc wants to >get too mixed up in), but you're also risking being tracked not just by >Demonics but also by mortal organizations...who may not be much threat to >an Archangel, but they can sure get annoying, especially when the Demonics >catch on and start backing them up. >< Very good points snipped for Brevity> > Suffice to say that under *ANY* model entailing more than about 6 >Celestials scattered across the continent, if Marc just had something set >up so Angels can draw whatever money they need at will (even if they only >take what they NEED), the concept of economy would be shot within, at >best, a couple years. *I*'d call that mucking about with the Symphony. > For sure, even tho it doesn;t say so I would guess that creating 16 body hits of Gold produces at least as much Disturbance as doing the 16 body hits to destroy it. Actually you can make a further piont of making Disturbance proportional to how important something is to the Symphony. Hard to judge, but if you break something and it really goes "BANG" then you know you broke the wrong thing. OTHO. What about all those Servitors of Marc "making 100% profit on an honourable transaction". Marc's rite page 129. Use of resonances doesn;t cause Disturbance. Having huge skills and impossibly high stats makes Marc's people wizards on financial markets and while the financial infrastructure of the "Heaven Bank" is subject to being spotted and tracked, even by mortals, I can't see this is any more Disturbing to the Symphony than a Servitor of David teaching people to protect themselves. >> because if he controls too much it take the "Trade" out of the transactions. >> I think that Marc really dislikes monopolists. > Which, of course, is another point. He's the Archangel of Trade, >not The Archangel of Free Cash. If anyone approached him on it, I think >he'd point out that the whole system is based on the idea that people >*WORK* for their rewards. Agreed, nothing is free, it would be selfish to think so and then, look out below. Email to peterf@geko.net.au "Whoso loveth God truely must not expect to be loved by Him in return." ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #268 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.