From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Jul 30 19:23:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA04735 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 19:23:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA12035 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:15:12 -0500 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:15:12 -0500 Message-Id: <199707302315.SAA12035@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #269 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, July 30 1997 Volume 01 : Number 269 In this digest: IN> Acts of God (was Dominic is not a Bad Guy) Re: IN> Playing Dead IN> Crossovers Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy Re: IN> Questions about Lilim Re: IN> Asmodeus Hit Squads Re: IN> Questions about Lilim RE: IN> Asmodeus Hit Squads Re: IN> Crossovers Re: IN> Questions about Lilim Re: IN> Acts of God (was Dominic is not a Bad Guy) Re: IN> Novalis & Plants Re: IN> Questions about Lilim Re: re IN> Making a living Re: IN> Crossovers IN> On Being Lilim IN> Question about Servitors Re: IN> Is Reality Subjective? Re: IN> Crossovers IN> Know your Diabloicals 15 Christopher Re: IN> Angels & Religion IN> Angels & Religion IN> Interesting vessels... Re: IN> Question about Servitors ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 19:04:39 +1000 (EST) From: Peter Frederick Subject: IN> Acts of God (was Dominic is not a Bad Guy) At 09:47 AM 28/7/97 -0500, Shadowcat wrote: >On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, tom timberlake wrote: > >> > This, of course, brings up the question: can God gain Dissonance? And if >> > so, who's gonna call him on it? ;) >> > >> > -- Casca >> > (bertishg@db.erau.edu) >> >> I am happy to say:NOT I! I don't think the house is insured against >> multiple direct-hit lightning strikes! > > I will. I allways make sure I have insurance against acts of >gods. Having worked with multiple metaphisists/psychic advisors, and >being a family witch, it's a REAL good idea. ;-) > > Shadowcat Just a random thought. Why are disasters always "Acts of God"?? Thanking you for your indulgence. Yours Peter. Email to peterf@geko.net.au "Whoso loveth God truely must not expect to be loved by Him in return." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:49:11 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Playing Dead > >> Actually, Celestial vessels _do_ have to breathe. > >> > >>Oops da Ogre, who doesn't remember where that fact is mentioned, though > > > >p. 48, Celestial Vessels box. Second paragraph. > > > >The high resistance is non-canon, methinks, > > I seem to recall John making a canon ruling on this a while back, though > I'm not sure. Yup. One of the things that a Celestial's vessel can safely ignore is most extremes of temperature. Anything down to freezing (and a bit below) and anything up to really, damn hot (over 100 degrees F) is comfortable to them even without special protection. Outside of this some measures might have to be taken, but not nearly as much as someone who has to 'live' within the Symphony. Some examples of play: An angel sees a drowning boy and dives into an icy lake (32 degrees F) to save him. No problem. When they get out, however, the angel (and the boy as well) are subjected to a chilly breeze that drops the temperature on their wet bodies to below 0! The angel would have to exercise briskly to avoid damage (and get out of the wet clothes) but the child is suffering badly. Druiel is wandering around in the muggy Austin summer heat wearing a leather jacket... again. If he keeps it up on the hottest days, he'd have to watch out for heatstroke. Mostly he should just keep to the shade and drink a bit of water under those temperatures. For purposes of concealment, most Celestials choose not to flaunt their various resistances! ;) In other words, eat occasionally, drink, complain about the weather, dress appropriately, etc. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:15:50 -0400 From: Highway Star Subject: IN> Crossovers At 23:55 +0000 7/30/97, Hermes Trismegistus wrote: > >What about IN Rifts? Angels and demons in power armour and Juicer rigs I've had all kinds of evil crossover ideas, thanks to reading too much GURPS I guess. In Nomine Paranoia? Run Heaven like Alpha Complex? (I guess I'm going to be struck down by God now.) In Nomine Cyberpunk? Nah, I've ranted about that enough. In Nomine Call of Cthulu? The Elder Ones are really Demons and Angels in Celestial form... In Nomine Car Wars? A Division 40 Duel between Michael and Lucifer... In Nomine Twilight: 2000? Baal managed to spark the Twilight War, and now the angels have to help humanity recover. In Nomine 2300AD? What gods do the Kafers have? In Nomine Heavy Gear? Oooo oooo oooo...no comment on that one. In Nomine In Nomine? Angels roleplaying demons and demons roleplaying angels? SeanMike - ---- Sean Michael Whipkey, smw4s@virginia.edu Weldon Cooper Center for Public Service, Publications Div. 804/924-4185 (or -4188) voicenet, 804/982-5536 fax http://www.virginia.edu/~cpserv/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:38:10 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy Gregory Littmann wrote: > I still don't get it. Just because God has to be good to be God > doesn't show that something else can't be good first, or that there > can't be facts about what would be good or what bad prior to God's > existence. Yes, but that's not the problem being addressed. The task was not to show that nothing COULD "be good first," but whether anything HAD to. One can allow (at least for the sake of argument) that something could dictate morality to God. I only meant to show that it is also possible to hold that morality STARTS with God. This is very important to those people who are much concerned both with God's priority and His sovreignty, if they also have certain notions regarding the ontological status of abstract concept. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:57:53 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Questions about Lilim On Jul 29, 1:58pm, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Questions about Lilim > At 10:03 AM -0400 7/29/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > >> > Lilim _are_ demons. > >> > >> Hey, I've got Lilim who will make a distinction that they're *different* > >> from yer run-of-the-mill, dime-a-dozen demons... Okay, so they're > >> demonic... They're no more generic demons than Habbalah... };) > > > > Hey, this brings up something... are you gonna write up > >something with the Lilith Fair (I think that's what it's called... > >that fem-performer music thing that's going around the country.) > >C'mon, _someone_ has to do something with this! > > Huh? I'd love to, but know nothing about it. :-( > > Think Lil herself is going to be present? O;> Heck, it's actually going to be in _my town_ this week! I have some friends going (I, alas, can't make it) and I'll see if they can remember to bring back some literature. (Hey, Jim! Can you bring back some fliers and pamphlets and stuff!) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:16:11 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul F. Strack" Subject: Re: IN> Asmodeus Hit Squads At 10:10 AM -0400 7/28/97, Emily K. Dresner wrote: > So how are Asmodeus Hit Squads organized? [Nice ideas about Asmodeus Triads snipped.] Actually, I think the majority of Asmodeus's servants work solo, and undercover. They do everything another demon would do, quietly going about their infernal lives while clandestinely watching their comrades. When a Servant of the Game spots a Dischordant target, she secretly reports back to Hell. A brute squad of a dozen or so Calabim and Djinn descend on the hapless proto-Renegade, who disappears into the night. Later there might be some sort of show trial, or the target demon may simply never be seen again. Servant of Dominic are like police. Servant of Asmodeus are more like Big Brother style secret police and death squads. There is no "Justice" in the Game. Paul Strack | Madness takes its toll. pfstrack@math.unc.edu | Please have exact change. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ World of Darkness Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/wod.html In Nomine Page: INC2 - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/innom/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:14:05 -0400 (EDT) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> Questions about Lilim > > Well, the reference was from the Dictionary of Angels, and later I > > found > > it in an interpretation of the Alphabet of Ben Sira. So I didn't just > > > > pull it out of a hat. :) > > Ok - It's that I'd never heard such a thing (and the Bible and > text like that are no strangers to me...). But I was never much in the > cabalistic thing, also... :-) > Hmmm. It's not Kabbalistic. It's a Hebrew folk tale from the 10th century which contains the first recorded mention of Lilith herself, and acts as an explaination on why newborns were made to wear "Anti-Lilith Amulets". I've also seen Cain mentioned as Tubal-Cain, who mated with Naamth, one of the three sisters of Lilith, and they also had a hoarde of little demon children. Heh. It's starting to sound more like Vampire every second. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:45:46 -0400 (EDT) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: RE: IN> Asmodeus Hit Squads > > Probably a good idea. I had other uses for the Balseraph in question > > which required it to be a Balseraph, > > F'rinstance? > Good question. :) I haven't entirely decided yet, but it apparently has alot to do with screwing with a Servitor of Dominic's head, and said Balseraph also has the Balseraph of Kronos attunement. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:43:09 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Crossovers > In Nomine Paranoia? Run Heaven like Alpha Complex? (I guess I'm going to > be struck down by God now.) Should be safe enough; I've been working, off and on, on Salem Complex for some time now and *I* haven't been. (Of course, I'm the High Priest of Mortijingle, and that's an official perk, but...) It's not In Nomine based, but it works amazingly well... > In Nomine Cyberpunk? Nah, I've ranted about that enough. Underground works much better for it... > In Nomine Car Wars? A Division 40 Duel between Michael and Lucifer... Heh..actually, in our last session, we had Michael and Baal drag racing in Batmobiles...(I still can't believe I successfully invoked Michael with a, "Yo, Mike!") MaBarry's suggesting In Nomine Talislanta...("No Angels", I suppose...) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:51:37 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Questions about Lilim At 3:06 PM +0000 7/29/97, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: >> Oh, limited mortals! Why not let Lilith be Cain's _father_. ;) >> We all know that AA/DP are not gender-limited. Perhaps she was >> trying to seduce her 'sister' away from vile bondage. > >Good one...I like it. Very...strange imagery (I am trying to imagine >what Lilith would look like as a male). Really really yummy. Probably a little androgynous, too -- after all, she does have primarily *daughters*... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:50:13 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Acts of God (was Dominic is not a Bad Guy) At 7:04 PM +1000 7/30/97, Peter Frederick wrote: >At 09:47 AM 28/7/97 -0500, Shadowcat wrote: >>On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, tom timberlake wrote: >> >>>> This, of course, brings up the question: can God gain Dissonance? And if >>>> so, who's gonna call him on it? ;) >>> >>> I am happy to say:NOT I! I don't think the house is insured against >>> multiple direct-hit lightning strikes! >> >> I will. I allways make sure I have insurance against acts of >>gods. Having worked with multiple metaphisists/psychic advisors, and >>being a family witch, it's a REAL good idea. ;-) >> > >Just a random thought. Why are disasters always "Acts of God"?? Because nobody tries to collect from insurance companies for miracles... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:58:12 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Novalis & Plants At 1:48 PM -0400 7/29/97, David Edelstein wrote: >>>>Why not? She would use the herbal drugs for healing the sick, or >recreation, and the poisons to kill off demons, and things that hurt her >plants.<<< > >There are legitimate uses of drugs and poisons, and not so legitimate uses. >I'm sure Novalis distinguishes between them. (She wouldn't be that quick to >use poisons even on demons.) > >Personally, I'm inclined to think Novalis is pro-life, though not in a >raving fundie way. And Eli. They wouldn't go fire-and-brimstone at someone who wanted an abortion, but it would *grieve* them. And when an Archangel cries, it probably counts as a really, really high check digit on that Emote success. It wouldn't be a personal slight, but it *would* be a personal *sadness*. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:40:30 -0400 (EDT) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> Questions about Lilim > >My argument is that the Lilim were never Angels that Fell, so some part of > >them, when created, still hears the True Symphony. The world must be cool > >and funky for Lilim. > > That's what I've been thinking, aye. Have you seen the INC web-pages > yet? The stuff about "Know Thy Enemy" has some stuff in it regarding > what Lilim perceive, IMAO. };) I read it. It's kewl, with a K. Lilim don't strike me as particularly evil. (Open can of worms...) They COULD be, or become as the case might be, over time. A Lilim in the service of Baal or Belial or Saminga would get hardened to hurting people. But a Lilim of Andrealphus, who is just doing their job and having a good time at it... Maybe, because they were never Angels and they never Fell. They have no where to go but up and out. Most run of the mill demons who have enough forces to pull Earth duty, I would see as have been Angels at one point in their existance, but became so evil, so corrupt over time, that not only did they get thrown out of Heaven to become Outcasts, but they did it AGAIN, and on top of it, they weaseled their way to a Demon Prince, got accepted, and worked their way up through being just outright evil that they got to pull Earth duty all over again. A Balseraph is not your friend even if he tells you so, Impudites hurt people, and I don't care how many Habbalah think they work for God - they are, in general, just pure demons and they got that way by earning it. But Lilim are different. They've never had that chance to actually work for Good, and then reject it and get kicked out. And they're trapped by Geas. Worse, even if they wanted to leave, there's no where to go. Angels won't believe them (and trust me, my PCs like to kill demons or anything they perceive as being 'bad'), and if they try to run, they're just going to get tracked down by Azzie and he buds. Man, you can run an entire campaign called Lilim: The Angst. > >> Well, it involves Forces. And maybe some other tricks... > > [Lilith going off and having a stable of demons and a horde of kids] Yeah! That comes back to what I originally said - maybe Lilim is getting together with some Demon Princes on the side. I hear that some people think sex is sinful, hell is full of sinners, and the Demon Princes are the worst... :) > It probably depends on how she collects the forces, etc. I > see no problem with collecting them in, ah, an intimate manner... Well, as long as everyone is having a good time. *waggle finger* :) ************************************************************************** Topic #2: > >I'm not sure how they would handle this. Maybe Betrayal is sort of like > >in the Mob novels I'm so fond of, where they do something unbelievably > >nasty to you, like tie you to a chair and leave you listening to the Best > >of Yanni for days on end. > > Hey, some people *like* Yanni! Well, some Yanni. You want to > drive me frothing, you play "If I could change the world" or > "Give me one reason" until I develop the Berserk Discord... I can see the Lilim leading their sister into a room, chaining her to a bed, and putting on the headphones that play John Tesh over and over again.... the headphones keep the sound from leaking out, since they don't want to harm the INNOCENT. :) Or maybe they'll just force that Lilim to dress really badly for a week. > >Or they just scorn you for a while. But I can see Lilim being > >pretty tolerant of, "Oh, that was because of a Geas. > >Yeah, well, happens to everyone." > > And then muttering, "But you didn't have to enjoy it so much." };) Yeah, well, I bet there was a really cute looking human involved here, and you know, you just GOTTA do yer job sometimes. :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:54:49 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: re IN> Making a living > >who is. They have better things to do, on the whole, than plan out every > >step of your mission and make sure things go perfectly...if they were > >going to do THAT, they wouldn't need YOU. > YMMV, but I find it hard to see an Archangel who knows that a Servitor will > not succeed sending that Servitor out on a specific mission. Additionally A There's a massive difference between sending a Servitor out on a mission they `know you won't succeed at,' and sending you out on something you should be able to handle without them coddling you and setting everything up precisely so you can't possibly fail. I think the Superiors tend to take a middleground; they've prepared their Servitors for general duty. That's why you don't get Earthduty until you're a full 9-Forces Celestial, with a few skills, some Songs, and maybe a cool Artifact or Servant of your own under your belt...(Er, so to speak, Andrealphus aside.) Once you're set, they should be able to assign you to get things done and not have to worry about exactly HOW it's going to get done... > proportional to how important something is to the Symphony. Hard to judge, > but if you break something and it really goes "BANG" then you know you broke > the wrong thing. Heh...I do like that idea, for a once-in-a-while kind of thing. (Just the image of dozens of Celestials, from both sides, pouring into some random officeroom to see a sheepish Ofanite standing there saying, "Um, all I did was knock over this vase. And you came running from TAHITI?!?") Actually, though, I do ALSO like the more generalized addition that extreme age embeds something more firmly in the Symphony... > OTHO. What about all those Servitors of Marc "making 100% profit on an > honourable transaction". Marc's rite page 129. Use of resonances doesn;t What about it? It's an honorable transaction, by definition, which means you enter into it within the bounds of the Symphony..eg. you approach them with the deal, negotiate, and exchange goods. > even by mortals, I can't see this is any more Disturbing to the Symphony > than a Servitor of David teaching people to protect themselves. And there, too...the Servitor of David can teach people to protect themselves, sure. He can even protect them, actually. The comparison between Servitors of Marc getting good deals and Servitors of David teaching self defense is a good one, but neither quite applies to setting up a bottomless money-from-nowhere machine...(which would be more like a Servitor of David skipping the teaching session and, working with a Mercurian of Eli, just setting up a factory that mass-produces Talismans that boost their combat skills flat out, and then just passing those around freely.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:18:06 -0700 (PDT) From: "R. Coon" Subject: Re: IN> Crossovers On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Highway Star wrote: > At 23:55 +0000 7/30/97, Hermes Trismegistus wrote: > > > >What about IN Rifts? Angels and demons in power armour and Juicer rigs > > I've had all kinds of evil crossover ideas, thanks to reading too much > GURPS I guess. > > In Nomine Paranoia? Run Heaven like Alpha Complex? (I guess I'm going to > be struck down by God now.) > Heheh... I believe it could be even more hysterical trying to roleplay Angels and Demons in Alpha--I don't think either side would know what to make of it. Saminga would certainly be happy with it. As would Vapula. Heck, Nybbas would just be the patron of HPD&MC, neh? > In Nomine Cyberpunk? Nah, I've ranted about that enough. > I like this idea. Problem is just figuring out Heavenly politics at this point. Jean and Vapula would most certainly be higher up in the importance ratings, and I'd say there'd likely be an Archangel and Prince of Cyberspace... Other ideas: In Nomine Falkenstein: Could be most interesting. YOu can bet the Adversary has infernal backing... In Nomine MERP: Cool setting. Crummy system. The Heavenly hierarchy's defined a bit differently though... In Nomine TORG: Heheheheh. This would be wrong. As if it's not confused enough... Just out of curiousity, if one were to make an In Nomine crossover in a world with magic, should there be an Archangel and Prince of Magic? Rob Coon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:02:44 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> On Being Lilim Just something I wrote up a while back, trying to decide what my Lilim's reactions would likely be to Lilim-specific things... In particular, Geasa... =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= On a Geas being invoked "For a moment, it's like there's nothing else but the Holder -- they're the universe. They're everything, hated and desired, lover and torturer, betrayer and closest friend. Sometimes your vessel gets aroused. You always feel *everything*, sensations, sounds, scents; it all goes hypercrisp, but nothing matters except the Holder and what they're about to say, about to tell you, *make* you. It's never like that when you bind yourself to do something specific -- you just say your pledge and it wraps around, almost comforting, because for its duration, you've chosen a path and don't have to worry about anything else. It settles into the same thing when a Holder invokes you, too: a really weird feeling, half security and half imprisonment. If you were really getting into the task, it almost hurts when the Geas is fulfilled. You're *lost* for a moment, without its weight on you, without it humming inside and keeping your blood warm. Of course, if it was a nasty job, there's nothing but relief and freedom. Still, I suppose I can see why some of us aren't more careful with their pledges. It's a rush. Probably gets addictive, in a weird way." On handing over an unspecified Promise-Geas "Okay, it's hard to explain, but you take a bit of yourself and sort of push it outwards. It feels like stretching, not quite painful. Occasionally you get nausea if you're in a vessel at the time. It's a *piece* of you, of your very self, and you've just handed it over to someone else. Right afterwards, you might get dizzy or a little tired for a moment, but you always notice that there's another *weight* wrapping around you -- a celestial bond. You get used to it quick, though; it doesn't *really* thow your balance off. Sometimes you wonder what it would be like to spin your *entire self* out that way. Then you get sensible about it -- who wants *that* big a Geas running around loose?" On invoking a Geas on someone else "There's always a little thrill to that, because at first, you're not sure whether the guy's gonna cave or if you're going to get it back in your belly. Backlash is nasty, feels like someone just stabbed you in the gut. Fortunately, it doesn't happen much, but after you've gotten it once from a Balseraph... Well, let's just say that you *don't* want to try to bind a demon again. Right after someone gives into it, though, it's a *serious* rush. You can almost see the Geas-bindings locking into place around him, even while the invoked shard is crumbling in the back of your head. It makes your breath go quick, hairs rise up on your back. Almost sexual. It's even better if you're commanding something you want from someone you didn't like, but that's just because revenge is tasty." emccoy@nh.ultranet.com, Uppity Wynch http://brie.bmsc.washington.edu/people/merritt/books/Eye_of_Argon.html "rumoured to contain hoards of plunder, and many young wenches" Mike [falsetto]: "We're tired of these degrading patriachical slurs! From now on we demand to be called 'wynchys.'" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:40:37 -0100 From: Henry Leirvoll Subject: IN> Question about Servitors How do Angels and Demons create Servitors. I find lilttle help about this in the main book. I mean.. a lot of information on how to design them, but during game - for instance - what is the process? How does a Demon make a Vampire? - does he roll anything? How does he make a mortal aware of the Celestial World - how does he teach him to use his Essence? How does it work? - -- 0000,0000,ffffH. Leirvoll / kulde@intercom.no ICQ - UIN : 1255494 ffff,0000,0000- ^Heksheim / Black Metal^ - http://www.intercom.no/~kulde ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 14:43:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Kabael Subject: Re: IN> Is Reality Subjective? <<< But I think we all agree that once God finished creating the Universe, He just stood watching over it and has done it since then. Whatever comes to be, comes to be - at least concerning humanity without interference. Remember: Mages are humans, are part of the Reality and of the Symphony. They shape it in a more conscious way then Sleepers, but if made within the rules, that's ok. The Symphony goes wherever humanity want it to go. God just don't want Demons disturbing it or Vulgar Mages messing around. But everyone knows that - even the Mages! They just didn't know that what they feared were not just powerful spirits, but Angels...>>> Both the Order of Hermes and the Celestial Chorus have many members that view all or some spirits (including paradox spirits) as angels. Makes it a neat idea if some of them actually WERE angels. : ) but if Angels are not part of the Symphony, or reality, does that change to effect of magick upon them? (bear with me, my IN knowledge is limited) k a b a e l meo the shoes :- ) kabael@tiac.net some quotes from GoldeBoy, my very first Anime movie: "This is SO educcational!" "This toilet overflows with my tears..." "Who started this?" "Is the music first?" "When I took a nap, despite my cramming, my face became patterned like the carpet." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 14:03:28 +0500 From: "James Rand" Subject: Re: IN> Crossovers > I've had all kinds of evil crossover ideas, thanks to reading too much > GURPS I guess. In Nomine - Planescape.... there's a cool crossover idea. Why play celestials if you're just going to be mucking around in the Corporeal Realm with them? Don't they deserve a setting equal to their glory? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 14:21:42 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Know your Diabloicals 15 Christopher Since we have a few more supperiors to talk about - --------------------------------------------------------------------- #15: As delivered by a Servitor of Christopher (Children) Bands ===== Balseraphs: Dont talk to strange Celestials. There are few stranger. Djinn: Not even teddy bears cheer them up. Calabim:. They can destroy even child proof toys. Habbalah: They make children cry for fun and they claim to be angels. They have to go. Lilim: Some lillim now specialise in baseball cards and other collectibles stocking up for the future. Mark them down for destruction. Shedim: They are stranger. They can twist children to do anything Impudites: Dont play with people you dont know. This lot can make anyone smile even if you should not. Servitors of... =============== Alamemon: Lying is wrong, even when it is not. Secrets etch the pure crystal of innocence and cloud it with the darkness of adulthood. Andrealphus: Child sexual abuse is among their favour activities. Kill them before they destroy innocence. Asmodeus: He rarely troubles us for the innocent have no fear of games. Baal: Really likes Action Men and toy guns. And real ones a definite bad influence. Beleth: The Bogeymen. Seek Blandines agents to help you chase away the dream monsters. Belial: Fire burns. Treat it with caution. Furfur: A classic example of the evils of Rock Music. Subliminally twisting the minds of the innocent. Nothing for it but ear plugs. Haagenti: There are little children in Africa who do not get enough to eat each night. Haagenti would make it all children every where. Kobal: Their jokes pervert the innocent in a very dangerous way. Kronos: Watch for his minions. They will show you by their actions which children need the most protection. Malphas: The innocent have no faction politics. How he grinds his teeth about that. Nybbas: Thanks to Nybbas Television rots the soul like fizzy drinks rot teeth. Saminga: Undead are icky. It is the knowledge that death can take you that marks the passage to adulthood. Valefor: Theft is wrong. Roaring around on motorcycles gives a bad rolemodel for children. All in all not one to let near your charges Vapula: he invented the video game which leaches at innocence and prevents social activity. Lilith: She doesnt like children because they tie you down and take away from you freedom. Look what she has done to her own daughters. - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Adam Canning Dahak@Compuserve.Com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:59:15 -0600 (MDT) From: gabriel g gurule Subject: Re: IN> Angels & Religion On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, David Edelstein wrote: > >>>To answer that one, I would have to know why humans bother with the > trappings of religion en masse. > > If you're expecting an RPG to explain why we have religion..... > > While in the real world many people obviously believe that certain > religions ARE absolutely correct, in an In Nomine universe you have to > assume that in fact, they're all wrong. Even if, for instance, Dominic and > Laurence are right and Jesus Christ WAS sent by God Himself, you can still > point out all kinds of errors in every Christian denomination, including > Catholicism, with regards to the "reality" of the In Nomine universe. If > you're accepting the basic premise of In Nomine, for purposes of the > campaign, then you simply can't say that the Roman Catholic religion is > correct, or the Southern Baptists or the Methodists or the Orthodox Jews or > the First Church of Tolkien Wiccans-- because none of them *really* know > what's what, though some of them may be closer to the truth than others > (usually depending on how much actual contact they've had with celestials.) > > >>>Perhaps just to keep them in closer contact with God. Why should angels > believe *less* in the usefulness of prayer than humans do?<<< > > The difference is, angels don't have the often-distorted view of prayers > that humans do. They *know* that God does sometimes choose to answer > prayers, from humans and angels alike, but that the exact rituals you use > aren't likely to make a difference (unlike praying to Archangels....), and > that often the likelihood of His responding seems to be irrespective of the > faith, works or beliefs of the supplicant. > > -David > http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/Innomine.htm > The way i see it is that all the religions are usless. God, Lucifer, and all other Celestials, do not depend on religion, or the fath of the mass to keep them going. The humans just got up and made religion to explane things. However, the celesteals use this religion in many ways. The first and formost is to strengthen there word. Second, using the trapings of religion to manipulate humans. Simply flash them with your celesteal form and the supersticous human belives whatever you tell him. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 14:21:31 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Angels & Religion Samniga's write up in Night Music Throws the relitavistic styles out the window with The Demon Prince of Death being respopnsible for egyptian funeral methods. Adam Canning Dahak@Compuserve.Com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:38:13 -0500 (CDT) From: Austin George Loomis Subject: IN> Interesting vessels... From a conversation I was having with Beth elsewhere. [...] > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:22:09 -0500 (CDT) > From: Austin Loomis > To: Elizabeth McCoy > Cc: Martin Leslie Leuschen > Subject: Re: Dust Bunnys and Burrows Illuminati > > On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, at 17:24:54 EDT, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >At 10:02 PM -0500 7/10/97, Austin Loomis wrote: > >>On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, at 16:58:26 EDT, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >>>At 9:44 PM -0500 7/9/97, Austin Loomis wrote: > >>>>On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, 11:17:27 EDT, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>She's getting Superior again... > >>>>> > >>>>> AYE! > >>>>> > >>>>She knows something we don't know. I can tell. > >>> > >>>What was the first clue? > >>> > >>Well, you're Illuminati, we both know that. (Incidentally, the Big V is > >>one of the Lowerarchs summoned up in James Blish's _Black Easter_, along > >>with Andre, Baal, Belial and Furfur -- to name just Names we know. They > >>all wore their monster vessels for the occasion -- Andre came in his > >>peacock vessel, but the rest tended to tricephaly.) > > > >(HRM???) > > > Here's the excerpted text from _Black Easter or Faust Aleph-Null_ (1968), > the concluding volume of the _After Such Knowledge_ thematic trilogy. > The arms merchant Baines has commissioned sorceror Theron Ware to the > Work of unleashing seventy-two assorted Demon Princes on Earth until > the following dawn. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ware's voice sounded remotely from one of the statues: > "BAAL, great king and commander in the East, of the Order of > the Fly, obey me!" > Something began to form in the distance. Baines had the clear > impression that it was behind the altar, behind the curtained door, indeed > outside the palazzo altogether, but he ccould see it nevertheless. It > came forward, growing, until he could also see that it was a thing like > a man, in a neat surcoat and snow-white linen, but with two supernumerary > heads, the one on the left like a toad's, the other like a cat's. It > swelled soundlessly until at some moment it was inarguably in the refec- > tory; and then, still silently, had grown past them and was gone. > [...] > "VALEFOR, powerful duke, obey me!" > A black-maned lion, again with three heads, the other two human, > one wearing the cap of a hunter, the other the wary smile of a thief. > It passed in a rush, without even a wind to mark its going. > [...] > "ASMODAY, strong and powerful king, chief of the power of Amay- > mon, angel of chance, obey me!" As he called, Ware swept off his hat > with his left hand, taking care, Baines noted, not to drop the lodestone > as he did so. > This king also rode a dragon, and also had three heads -- bull, > man and ram. All three heads breathed fire. The creature's feet were > webbed, as were its hands, in which it carried a lance and pennon; and > it had a serpent's tail. Fearsome enough; but Baines was beginning to > note a certain narrowness of invention among these infernal artisans. > It also occurred to him to wonder, fortunately, whether this very repe- > titiveness was not deliberate, intended to tire him into inattentiveness, > or lure him into the carelessness of contempt. _This thing might kill > me if I even closed my eyes,_ he reminded himself. > "FURFUR, great earl, obey me!" > This angel appeared as a hart and was past them in a single bound, > its tail streaming fire like a comet. > "HALPAS, great earl, obey me!" > There was nothing to this apparition but a stock dove, also > quickly gone. Ware was calling the names now as rapidly as he could > manage to turn the pages, perhaps in recognition of the growing weariness > of his Tanists, perhaps even of his own. The demons flashed by in night- > mare parade: RAYM, earl of the Order of the Thrones, a man with a crow's > head; SEPAR, a mermaid wearing a ducal crown; SABURAC, a lion-headed > soldier upon a pale horse; BIFRONS, a great earl in the shape of a gigan- > tic flea; ZAGAN, a griffin-winged bull; ANDRAS, a raven-headed angel > with a bright sword, astride a black wolf; ANDREALPHUS, a peacock appear- > ing amid the noise of many unseen birds; AMDUSCIAS, a unicorn among many > musicians; DANTALIAN, a mighty duke in the form of a man but showing > many faces both of men and women, with a book in his right hand; and > at long last, that mighty king created next after LUCIFER and first to > fall in battle before MICHAEL, formerly of the Order of the Virtues, > BELIAL himself, beautiful and deadly in a chariot of fire as he had been > worshiped in Babylon. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Austin George "World without end, end without world" Loomis, MiSTie #84029 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 17:22:24 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Question about Servitors At 6:40 PM -0100 7/30/97, Henry Leirvoll wrote: >How do Angels and Demons create Servitors. I find little help about this >in >the main book. They spend Essence, slap together some Forces (or select them carefully in the case of AAs), and presto! Celestial being, of spirit (imp/gremlin or reliever) class or higher! >How does a Demon make a Vampire? - does he roll anything? How does he make >a >mortal aware of the Celestial World - how does he teach him to use his >>Essence? Pick up Night Music for Soldiers. It's got some Vampire stuff in it as well, but I think it depends on the Prince you get to help... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #269 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.