From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Aug 2 02:04:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA24209 for ; Sat, 2 Aug 1997 02:04:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA29665 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 2 Aug 1997 00:49:45 -0500 Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 00:49:45 -0500 Message-Id: <199708020549.AAA29665@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #272 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, August 2 1997 Volume 01 : Number 272 In this digest: IN> Know your Diabloicals 15 Christopher IN> >Samniga's write up in Night Music Throws the relativistic styles out the IN> RELICS CONTEST -- CLOSED! Re: IN> Why I didn't buy Night Music Re: IN> Question for the powers that be... Re: IN> Interesting vessels... IN> About Invocations, I think this Re: IN> Free Lilim Re: IN> As the Malakite was drinking coffee.. Re: IN> New Skills Re: IN> Andrealphus the Lover Re: IN> New Skills Re: IN> Questions about Lilim Re: IN> About Invocations, I think this Re: IN> >Samniga's write up in Night Music Throws the relativistic styles out the IN> Celestial Enquirer (A Publication of Kobal Enterprises, Ink.) Re: IN> Why I didn't buy Night Music Re: IN> Night Music Nitpicks [Some Spoilers] Re: IN> Why I didn't buy Night Music Re: IN> Why I didn't buy Night Music Re: IN> Why I didn't buy Night Music Re: IN> Night Music Nitpicks [Some Spoilers] IN> Why I didn't buy Night Music Re: IN> Why I didn't buy Night Music Re: IN> Why I didn't buy Night Music ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:11:11 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Know your Diabloicals 15 Christopher Martin Leslie Leuschen >> Malphas: The innocent have no faction politics. How he grinds his teeth > about that. What planet did you grow up on?< Its not which planet I grew up on that matters [Hong Kong for your information] . Its more that Christophers party line is faction politics didn't occur before the fall when the angels were innocent. Remember Celestials do not really under stand peopel very well. Besides Faction politics immplies [at least to me] the need for a level of cynisism incompatable with innocence. It takes a certain amount of wordly wise experience to deside that lying and stabing your friends in the back is an advatages behaviour pattern, as opposed to doing it by accident. Adam Canning Dahak@Compuserve.Com Being a Malakim of Creation working for Destiny I hold no brief for understanging the Archangel of Children. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:11:20 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> >Samniga's write up in Night Music Throws the relativistic styles out the >From:Elizabeth McCoy >>Samniga's write up in Night Music Throws the relitavistic styles out the >>window with The Demon Prince of Death being respopnsible for egyptian >>funeral methods. Just the part about taking the brains out before preserving the corpse... The rest of it, he just found, didn't make.< "Saminga dwelt in Egypt for many centuries advancing his adopted science." From the description the removing vital organs was done resonably late on in the scheme of things as a method of changing Saminga's techniques so that he could no longer animate the corpses. Samiga 's career in egypt started around Cheops I and the beginning of the Pyramid building craze. This Leaves him annimating Dead Pharohs as Mummies. Dead Pharoahs were supposed to have been Horus and become Osiris. So either the major powers of the Egyptian panteon didn't notice bits of them being stolen or they didn't exisit or Saminga goes under the name Apep some times. Adam Canning Dahak@Compuserve.Com " The Living do not know how lucky they are" Zaphod Beeblebrox the Third ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:46:10 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> RELICS CONTEST -- CLOSED! Thanks folks, to everyone who contributed. From a slow start, I wound up with over 80 pages worth of entries. Although technically the deadline was midnight last night, if your entry was in my in-box when I made my first mail pass this morning, you made it under the wire. Now, I'm sure you all want to know who the winners are. And I know it's a pain waiting to hear whether your entry was selected. I've pretty much been separating the good, the bad, and the "has potential" submissions as I receive them, so I've already got a fairly good idea of which ones are going to be used. (Bear in mind, all submissions will be edited, so even if yours is selected, it will probably not be published exactly as you wrote it.) However, once I have chosen the ones I like best, they still need to be reviewed by the other Superiors. For this reason, I'm not going to send out announcements immediately -- there's a lot of editing to be done between now and publication, and I don't want to tell someone their entry was chosen, only for it to get cut before the final draft. I will, however, let you know just as soon as I can. Each person who has an entry that will be appearing in the book will receive an e-mail notification from me. (And a request for your address, for you naughty monkeys who STILL didn't include one.....) Thanks! - -David Edelstein Relics Contest Administrator ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 13:27:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Davidson Subject: Re: IN> Why I didn't buy Night Music On Fri, 1 Aug 1997, Alexander Shearer wrote: > Obviously, I want settings. I didn't buy IN for the rules. But I > don't want, or need, published adventures or a specific setting (Austin). > Returning to my example of Vampire books - they had books for (IIRC) > Chicago, Washington D.C., the New England area, L.A., Montreal and > Vancouver. However, my two Chronicles were set in San Diego and Detroit. > So...if they had bundled, say, a bunch of new rules for Ghouls in with Dark > Colony: New England, that might have been a bit annoying. And none of the stuff for Chicago, Washington, D.C., or New England could be adapted for San Diego and Detroit? I would have thought that Chicago, at the very least, could be adapted to play in Detroit, and L.A. for San Diego. The same could be said for "Night Music," as well. You may not be able to use *everything*, but it should be good for at least a *few* good ideas. For example, Hero Games released the supplement "Normals Unbound" a few years back. While I couldn't use everything in the supplement, I got a few great gaming sessions out of the chilling "Mr. Rapentap and his Children Followers," and out of the equally chilling Ananias Topps and his girlfriend, Tandy. While I used little else from this book, these few things helped flesh out the world a little bit, and helped me create and write thoughtful, insightful stories that I could use to create the much needed pathos in my players. > For an IN supplement, I'd prefer that the "meta" stuff be presented > separately from the specific setting info and adventures. In the case of > Night Music, "meta" would approximately cover the new info on Soldiers and > the new stuff on Superiors. The "specifics" include the adventure and the > setting of Austin. As I've argued on the UseNet, "Any setting is better than *no* setting." > > > >The reason why I ask this, is that i'm experiencing it with the new > >Champions game. It seemed as if everyone was complaining that the 4th ed > >Champions had too many rules, and not enough campaigning information. > >Then, when the New Millenium came out (75% setting and adventure material, > >by the way), it seemed as if everyone complained, "I can't use this > >stuff!" > > I can't speak to that specifically, as I've never been a Champions > player. I might, however, have preferred the older rules, depending. Is NM a > specific setting, or general setting information? I wouldn't mind the >latter... A little of both, actually. Most of it is about the world that the game is set in, and some of it is specifically about Bay City (a fictional city on the west coast). The game world itself *is* interesting, and (if nothing else) should be looked at as a model for designing superhero campaign worlds in the future. > > > >I guess you just can't please everyone. > > > Well, that's a given. I'm just wondering why things which seem to me > [1] to be so disparate were packaged together. > Perhaps. But there does seem to be a movement in roleplaying supplements to do away with providing adventures, altogether. I don't always have the time (or the energy) to come up with these on my own. I usually take a published adventure, change what needs to be changed for my campaign world, flesh it out a little bit, and use it. It may sound like a lot of work, but it's a lot better than writing an adventure from scratch. But writing rpg supplements is *very* difficult, mostly because you're trying to be everything for everyone, and that obviously doens't always work the way you planned. I don't want you to buy Night Music if you don't want to. In fact, I have no stake in it whatsoever, other than the fact that your buying it will allow SJG to further support In Nomine. Again, YMMV Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us - -------------------- Don't panic! I have a new .sig! - -------------------- Instruction Booklet for this message: STEP 1: Open mouth. STEP 2: Insert foot. STEP 3: Chew vigorously. STEP 4: Repeat as needed. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 13:33:11 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Question for the powers that be... At 10:54 AM +1000 8/1/97, Patrick O'Duffy wrote: >G'day. > > Now that the relics contest is over, is it advisable that I post my >submissions on the mailing list? I don't know if there are copyright >hang-ups with that. Wait till you see if yours are going to be accepted or not, too, I'd advise. (Anything that I submitted that isn't accepted will probably go on the INC, fer instance.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 14:29:45 -0400 (EDT) From: AGLoomis@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Interesting vessels... Oh, and by the way, _Black Easter or Faust Aleph-Null_ is © 1968 James Blish. My quoting of excerpts from it was not intended as an infringement of Mr. Blish's copyright in any way. A.G. "My other account is waffling" Loomis ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 19:20:28 -0100 From: Henry Leirvoll Subject: IN> About Invocations, I think this I think the Distinctions should add some level of chance of success upon Invocation - I mean, hell .. If I play a demon with the THIRD level distinction from my Prince, I'd expect more attention than he'd give a new brat demon not more than 666 years old. - -- 0000,0000,ffffH. Leirvoll / kulde@intercom.no ICQ - UIN : 1255494 ffff,0000,0000- ^Heksheim / Black Metal^ - http://www.intercom.no/~kulde ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 13:28:24 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Free Lilim At 9:19 AM +0000 8/1/97, Leathal Weapon wrote: >Can anyone give me a page reference where it says that Free Lilim >have no Hearts made for them? I know it's supposed to be there >somewhere but I can't find it. Hrm. I think that may have risen out of a logical conclusion -- Lilith has no permanent Servitors, Lilith has no Domain, Lilith's Servitors have no real place to keep a Heart, and therefore the Free Daughters don't have Hearts unless they buy them... Though I suspect that if it's not in a book yet, It Will Be. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:31:22 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> As the Malakite was drinking coffee.. > > > ...caused the plants form the planter next to the door entangle the > > > Calabite. Things got messy from there. > > I prefer, "...Said, `Oh, hi there.' And the Calabite blasted her > Oh, well, I tried. :-) Actually, I'd kind of liked yours...I just preferred mine. *ahem* (Based mainly on the thought that Novalis doesn't have many Malakim...so I figure if she HAS one, they're going to be...er, someone you really don't want to mess with.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 13:38:06 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> New Skills At 10:33 AM -0400 8/1/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >> >Hypnotism (Will) > Default:-5 >> >Given a short period of time you can place someone into a trance; >> >treating them for disorders, making them susceptible to commands, >> >drawing forth or concealing memories (including past lives),[...] >> >> Wow! This is more than hypnosis. This is super-powered mind control. [...] >> (Movie hypnosis does these things regularly I guess) But it is nowhere close >> to reality. > > I agree... and most people in In Nomine don't _have_ past >lives. Unclear -- human souls get recycled if they don't reach either fate or destiny... Saints are similar. >> >Magician (Precision) > Default:-4 >> >> I do like this one. > > 'Magician' refers to a person, not a skill. Sleight of >Hand or some other word would be better. Prestidigitation! - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 13:26:25 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Andrealphus the Lover At 1:07 AM -0400 8/1/97, David Edelstein wrote: >>>>But, at the same time, he's the ultimate lover, too. Maybe he has a >really nice pad.<<< > >Heh. I don't think so many people will find the idea of being Andre's lover >thrilling after reading "Night Music"... He's not always like that -- note that it was "attentions towards *this* Servitor" . He's all aspects, and chooses to manifest them at whim. I'm not entirely sure that he'd be the ultimate *lover*, though. His technique is going to be *damned* good, when he wants, but the affection side will probably be missing. Now, if you want a *lover*.... What are those Creation rites again? And who's holding that Word? O;> At 9:31 AM -0400 8/1/97, Kim Foster wrote: >Just my opinion, but his treatment of Lauren almost seemed a "special" case. >It was mentioned that Andre's attentions leaned more toward the abusive with >her. I got the impresssion (from pure speculation) that he treated her the >way he did because he was close to her, which was mentioned somewhere as >well. That is, to keep some distance and keep any warm or romantic feelings >out of the sexual activities which would seem to be a part of serving the >Word of Lust. Anyway, just rambling too early in the morning. Good point -- it *does* say elsewhere that she's "close to his heart," though she doesn't know it. I could easily see abusive treatment as a means of distancing, to better embody the word. And/or it's a case of doling out abuse, and getting some kind of emotional gratification that she doesn't go Renegade from it -- obviously a sign of demonic affection. :-p (Who says Djinn are the only Band who can have that kind of twisted mindset...?) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:34:40 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> New Skills > > 'Magician' refers to a person, not a skill. Sleight of > > Hand or some other word would be better. > How about "Prestidigitation"? How 'bout "Prestidigitationn"? (To distinguish it from elephant milking. Check out http://a-ztech.com/lintking/presto/index.html -- which, okay, is a blatant plug, but it's fun.) On the more `serious' note, I DO prefer "legerdemain" for general sleight-of-hand...but for the stagecraft, I'd go with prestidigitation. (Come to think of it, our Ofanite, Milo, has a Role as a stage magician. Hm...) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 14:31:58 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Questions about Lilim At 12:09 PM +0300 8/1/97, Tapio Erola wrote: >> > >Or they just scorn you for a while. But I can see Lilim being >> > >pretty tolerant of, "Oh, that was because of a Geas. >> > >Yeah, well, happens to everyone." >> > >> > And then muttering, "But you didn't have to enjoy it so much." };) >> >"Sorry dear about this. Nothing personal." This is attitude that I would >expect lilim to take automatically when geased to betray friends etc. >It _would_ be understood and accepted IMHO. True 'nuff, though we *are* talking about demons here. Even Lilim can be prickly with their sisters... And sometimes feuds *do* happen! (Hey, you can hate your family...) They're probably most likely to crop up between Bound and Free Lilim -- where a Bound one uses a Geas on a sister to help her Prince, knowing it's going to set her sister into a Geas conflict of greater or lesser levels. And then sometimes they get desperate. (I've mentioned the catfight bit already, re. Feast of Blades.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:14:42 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> About Invocations, I think this At 7:20 PM -0100 8/1/97, Henry Leirvoll wrote: >>>> >I think the Distinctions should add some level of chance of success upon >Invocation - I mean, hell .. If I play a demon with the THIRD level >distinction from my Prince, I'd expect more attention than he'd give a new >brat demon not more than 666 years old. Good point.... If the PC were the sort who called for the Big Guys at ever turn, when things got tough, he shouldn't have gotten the distinction in the first place. (And if he gets to be a pill about it, well, what Superiors give, Superiors can take away...) Perhaps a +1, +2, +3 for Distinctions? (Of course, I'm not Karakash, but I feel in an authoritive mood right now.) It's certainly a good house rule, and one I think I'm going to make big eyes at the local GM about. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:05:57 -0400 From: "Joshua Knorr" Subject: Re: IN> >Samniga's write up in Night Music Throws the relativistic styles out the >didn't exist or Saminga goes under the name Apep some times. This raises an interesting concept...I wonder if it's plausible that some of the various AA/DPs have spent time in history masquerading, so to speak, in more, shall we say, 'authoritative' guises. In the Greek pantheon alone, we've got Saminga filling in for Hades, Novalis for Demeter, Michael/Lawrence (am I the only one who thinks these two are less than friends?) for Ares - and this leaves out, of course, all the pantheons for other cultures that I am totally ignorant about. The Greek/Roman suite of gods work particularly well because many of them personify concepts or principles, just as celestials do. In places where people don't believe in God, Satan, etc., setting yourself up as a deity can be a great way to increase the power of your Word. On the other hand, both Lucifer and The Big Guy might have a few problems with their underlings claiming to be, ahem, more than what they are. Joshua Knorr A conservative is a liberal who has just been mugged. A liberal is a conservative who has just been booked. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:45:17 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Celestial Enquirer (A Publication of Kobal Enterprises, Ink.) I was talking with the talented Maya... She said that I should post the scene where people could see it. This is all her fault. She sparked the ideas.... [For those who don't know, K.K. (Kamakazi ) is a suicidal Lilim of Dark Humor -- she has a Perception of 12, a Will of 12, and 1 Corporeal Force. She goes around resonating Malakim for their Needs to kill demons and then reveals her nature and throws herself on their swords, potentially gathering Geasa. Yes, she is a munchkin character.] [...] [Me:] >>>>>Yum! Schlurp! Laurence, Mmmmmm! [Maya:] >>>>KK's ultimate ambition? :) [Me:] >>>Yup! He's just soooooo yummy. K.K.'s got a crush... "So, like, >>>if we could, you know, get together... I'll stop going after >>>your guys! But you gotta show me a *good* time, y'know?" [Maya:] >>I laughed out loud when I read that, and imagined that. And perhaps >>Laurence's look shading from the sternly righteous into the slightly puzzled >>into the appalled and disapproving (and yet handsome despite himself) - how >>could K.K. resist? (At least, that's the excuse she gives Kobal while >>recovering from her latest trauma..) [Me:] > The Trauma might be >worth it, if there were someone else around to take pictures >of K.K. plastered around him like a boa constrictor. "Archangel >Malakite seen with Lilim! Wedding bells in Larry's future?" >Scene: Seraphim Council floor, Council mostly in recess. Lots of >Archangels and high-status Seraphim in corners and small groups, >many reading some kind of newspaper. And occasionally snickering. > >Laurence, clutching _Celestial Enquirier_ gossip rag: "Lies! All lies!" > >Dominic, muttering: "I know. It's giving me a headache to read it." > >Novalis, flipping through another copy: "She does look like she's >enjoying herself, though. How did you peel her off?" > >Laurence: > >Novalis, continues: "And did she take scraps of clothing with her?" > >Laurence: "I used a blade, and no." > >Dominic: muttering, "She left scars in the leather pants, and >toothmarks, though." > >Novalis, sighing: "I suppose that is the 'when they pry you out >of my cold dead fingers' expression on her face." > >Laurence, loudly: "I wasn't enjoying her groping me!" > >Dominic, still sotto voce: "...once you realized she was a demon." > >Novalis, looking up sadly: "I know, dear. You really ought to >relax more. Drop by my party sometime. You too, Dom. You ought >to peel out of that cloak sometimes, kick back, relax." > >Both: (Dommie with 3-pair eyes, which is impressive.) > >Novalis, oblivious: "Ah, well -- time to get back to business." [Exit, >carrying several copies of the scandal rag.] > >Laurence, darkly: "I did *not* enjoy being assaulted in that fashion." > >Dominic: "By a demon." > >Laurence: "I have work to do." [exits, stuffing >his copy of the _Celestial Enquirier_ into a celestial trashcan. > >Dominic, mostly to himself: "True." [slithers off] emccoy@nh.ultranet.com, Uppity Wynch http://brie.bmsc.washington.edu/people/merritt/books/Eye_of_Argon.html "rumoured to contain hoards of plunder, and many young wenches" Mike [falsetto]: "We're tired of these degrading patriachical slurs! From now on we demand to be called 'wynchys.'" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 20:07:27 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Why I didn't buy Night Music On Fri, 1 Aug 1997 01:11:01 -0400 (EDT), Thomas Davidson wrote: >This is one thing that has always confused me. I've seen this sentiment >before, but I've never understood it. If you don't want adventures, don't >want settings, then what would make you happy? What other things could be >written about in a RPG supplement that would have everything that you >would be looking for and nothing more? > >The reason why I ask this, is that i'm experiencing it with the new >Champions game. It seemed as if everyone was complaining that the 4th ed >Champions had too many rules, and not enough campaigning information. >Then, when the New Millenium came out (75% setting and adventure material, >by the way), it seemed as if everyone complained, "I can't use this >stuff!" > >I guess you just can't please everyone. One thing to remember is people happy with a supplement will speak up in far smaller numbers that people who don't like it. The people who are happy are off using the book, not writing email. So for any product, you'll tend to hear more complaints than praise. It must be a bit depressing to authors and publishers... But, let me ramble about what I'd like to see. I haven't seen Night Music yet, so let me talk about the GM pack. The adventure in it isn't what I want from a GM pack: it's what I want from an adventure pack, so that tosses 90% of the GM pack into the not-what-I-want category. What should a GM pack have? It seems to me a GM needs two sets of information: planning information and playing references. The major planning information in the GM pack is the Geopolitical Diagram. Very cool, but not in the right place: it belongs with other planning information, not on the playing screen, and it's the only true planning information in the pack--the adventure is only one-shot planning information, except for the Generic Policeman. What other planning information do I need? Even if you don't want to set absolute standards about Tethers and Celestial populations and such, general discussion about these would help my planning process. I don't need absolute rules set, but help to think about the issues before I'm in the midst of a campaign without enough time to think about them. What might the staff of various sized Tethers be like? What problems would face the Tethers? What kind of precautions might a Seneschal take to protect his Tether? How far away from the Tether will disturbances be heard? What kind of teams might the Seneschal keep on deck, ready to handle problems? Who would various Seneschals be likely to have as guards? How might Seneschals react to visiting Celestial teams? IOW, how do I design a Tether? Considering Celestial populations, how would different assumptions about their density affect campaigns? GIven a density, what disturbances are likely to be sensed by others? If Celestials are pretty thick on the ground, how might they be used? Would lookouts or scouts be useful, and what Celestials would make effective scouts? What kind of teams would be effective to back up the scouts? How would these teams vary based on Superior? What tactics might they use? IOW, how do I design a setting? How about some help developing NPCs: sheets for standard mundanes; sheets for common Celestials; a skill quick reference? How do I build an adventure? What kind of goals would make sense to various Superiors? How might they approach them? What counter moves might various opposing Superiors take? Essentially, I'm saying: give me an adventure, and you help me for one campaign; teach me how to build adventures, and you help me forever. In terms of playing reference, the GM screen has a lot of what I need, but it's also missing a lot: What is a skill roll? What attributes do the skills work from? What is the formula for a Resonance roll? What are the distance modifiers? What are the Resonances of the Celestials? What special cases exist, like the sequence of Resonances Impudites have to go through? Which can be Will-resisted? What is the roll for Will resistance? (Hard to find!) What is the roll for Songs? Which can be Will-resisted? (But the GM sheet has the bulk of the Song info needed.) What are the dissonance conditions for Celestials? (Talk about something the GM *has* to keep track of!) What are the dissonance rules? Maybe it's just too big, but what are the Attunements of various Celestials? The mundane combat section is excellent: it's what is needed for the other aspects of IN. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 17:33:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Wilmoth Subject: Re: IN> Night Music Nitpicks [Some Spoilers] Onb the subject of humans not being able to get rid of diDissoannance, the following thoughts: a) as thas the original poster mentioned psychiatric help, I 'll cover it first. Having undergone thertherapy myself for Dissoannance, I have to register a firm opinion that the authors are completely right, and , at least in this case. b) On the other hand, even if therapy (or any othetrr method) DOES work, it works on a scale of years, not game session-length-preriods. Thus, for game purposes, Dissoanance is non-removable for mortals. c) Normally, Arcs and Princes could remove it, just liek they do with  angels and demons; but thish has been STRICTLY verboten by God, , as it fuddles VERY directly with humans. IE: He the big Big He hasn't just 'saisd' 'Thou shalt not remove human Dissoancenance'; it's just plain impossible, no matter whether you try or not. He can  Just my thoughts, James, Think Fuzzy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 14:51:45 -0700 (PDT) From: nightgaunt@earthlink.net (Alexander Shearer) Subject: Re: IN> Why I didn't buy Night Music >And none of the stuff for Chicago, Washington, D.C., or New England could >be adapted for San Diego and Detroit? I would have thought that Chicago, >at the very least, could be adapted to play in Detroit, and L.A. for San >Diego. It could, but why? Why go out of my way, spending money best saved for other things (like hideously overpriced textbooks, but that's a different complaint), when I have my own ideas? In both of the cases above, I picked the settings because I knew what I wanted. San Diego was my first vampire Chronicle, so I picked my (then) home town, so I'd be able to understand where and why everything was. My Detroit Chronicle was a Sabbat game, and I knew what I wanted to do. I really don't feel like buying $15-20 books so I can adapt a couple of interesting things. I can just as easily skim the library for cool ideas from books - and it's free (and often much, much better than the game-specific background stuff). > >The same could be said for "Night Music," as well. You may not be able to >use *everything*, but it should be good for at least a *few* good ideas. >For example, Hero Games released the supplement "Normals Unbound" a few >years back. While I couldn't use everything in the supplement, I got a >few great gaming sessions out of the chilling "Mr. Rapentap and his >Children Followers," and out of the equally chilling Ananias Topps and his >girlfriend, Tandy. > >While I used little else from this book, these few things helped flesh out >the world a little bit, and helped me create and write thoughtful, >insightful stories that I could use to create the much needed pathos in my >players. Maybe, but...this may just be me, but I'm very selective about what I purchase. I don't buy a book thinking "Oh, new IN book." Lots of gamers do, and I understand that. I pick the book up, think about the contents, decide if they'll be an interesting read and add to my gaming. Thus, when I looked at Night Music, my thoughts were "Cool - I'd like to read more stuff about Soldiers, and all new Superiors are cool, since I enjoy seeing the IN treatment of angels and demons." Then I noticed that a big chunk of the book is an adventure. Ooh. I have no desire to run a published adventure. Then there's the Austin setting. Hmm. Maybe I'd be interested in seeing that, but then the blurb promises tons of NPCs, something that I want even less than the setting. This may just be me, but one of my favorite parts of GMing is creating the "supporting cast" for the game. > >> For an IN supplement, I'd prefer that the "meta" stuff be presented >> separately from the specific setting info and adventures. In the case of >> Night Music, "meta" would approximately cover the new info on Soldiers and >> the new stuff on Superiors. The "specifics" include the adventure and the >> setting of Austin. > >As I've argued on the UseNet, "Any setting is better than *no* setting." Well, yeah, but that's not really the situation. Look at the IN main rules - it has setting, but nothing really useless to me. Lots of "meta" setting. Whole-game kind of stuff. Look at Night Music - it has "meta" setting also (Soldiers and Superiors...which sounds like a poor TSR knockoff). Unfortunately for me, it also has Austin and an adventure. The book retails for $17.95, so for me, that's ~$9.00 of stuff I didn't want. I don't like blowing money on these things...(mind you, lots of people don't mind blowing nine bucks on small things, as clearly shown in places like Virtual World and certain movie theaters). It's not that I can't afford the whole book; it's more the principle of buying a book for half its contents. > >> > >> I can't speak to that specifically, as I've never been a Champions >> player. I might, however, have preferred the older rules, depending. Is NM a >> specific setting, or general setting information? I wouldn't mind the >>latter... > >A little of both, actually. Most of it is about the world that the game >is set in, and some of it is specifically about Bay City (a fictional city >on the west coast). The game world itself *is* interesting, and (if >nothing else) should be looked at as a model for designing superhero >campaign worlds in the future. Hmmm. I loathe fictional cities in supers games (which may make me unique), but I'd have to see how big a chunk it takes up. I've played supers games mostly with GURPS Supers, so I can address the inclusion of a campaign world there. I really didn't like it. OTOH, I do like the approach David Pulver took in Robots and Psionics, where lots of helpful short campaign suggestions are included, with various considerations mentioned. Note that there still are some backgrounds I enjoy (Vampire, IN, Shadowrun), but I still avoid books that bundle a few interesting bits of metastuff into adventures or settings I don't want (e.g. any of the Giovanni Chronicles books for VtM). > > > > >> >I guess you just can't please everyone. >> > >> Well, that's a given. I'm just wondering why things which seem to me >> [1] to be so disparate were packaged together. >> > >Perhaps. But there does seem to be a movement in roleplaying supplements >to do away with providing adventures, altogether. I don't always have the >time (or the energy) to come up with these on my own. I usually take a >published adventure, change what needs to be changed for my campaign >world, flesh it out a little bit, and use it. It may sound like a lot of >work, but it's a lot better than writing an adventure from scratch. Maybe. I don't write a whole lot of my adventures ahead of time anyway. Thoughts on plot, thoughts on NPCs, and there we go (NPCs get far more attention than anything else). > >But writing rpg supplements is *very* difficult, mostly because you're >trying to be everything for everyone, and that obviously doens't always >work the way you planned. I don't want you to buy Night Music if you >don't want to. In fact, I have no stake in it whatsoever, other than the >fact that your buying it will allow SJG to further support In Nomine. > Well, yeah again. As I noted, SJG isn't trying to force me to buy stuff I don't want. I'm just really curious as to the motivation behind the approach. Here's another tack - how much do the adventure and setting info rely on the metastuff, and vice-versa. Is Austin especially special to Soldiers? Is it really appropriate for a game with its emphasis on Soldiers? Alexander Shearer nightgaunt@earthlink.net gaunt@uclink4.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 15:09:55 -0700 (PDT) From: nightgaunt@earthlink.net (Alexander Shearer) Subject: Re: IN> Why I didn't buy Night Music >Hmmm...you them know what you don't like, but you forgot the cardinal rule. >Always let them know what you *would* like to see! I thought that was evident, sorry. I want, and would like to see, the stuff about Soldiers and Superiors. On its own, without Austin and an adventure. Thus, I still look forward to The Marches.:) Alexander Shearer nightgaunt@earthlink.net gaunt@uclink4.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Aug 97 18:39 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Why I didn't buy Night Music [Walt Mazur:] >One thing to remember is people happy with a supplement will speak up >in far smaller numbers that people who don't like it. The people who >are happy are off using the book, not writing email. So for any >product, you'll tend to hear more complaints than praise. It must be a >bit depressing to authors and publishers... Actually, it depends -- Elizabeth and I get a fair amount of IOU fan mail, and I don't recall hearing anybody say that they hated it (though I'm sure there were people who wouldn't take it if it were free). The worst comments I can remember seeing about it were in the review in Dragon. (And I still wonder if the reviewer did anything but leaf through the book in a store... but I guess all authors think that of a poor review.) I don't know what kind of mail, if any, SJG got from IOU, though. I can also recall Loyd Blankenship telling me how many people came up to him to tell him how wonderful GURPS Supers (1st ed.) was. And it was pretty bad, so maybe authors only hear the positive stuff.... [long laundry list of useful GM aids chopped] My two big peeves with the GM screen is that the Superior relations chart isn't useful enough, and there are no resonance check-digit charts. I've now made up a couple of cross-product tables showing everyones' relationships on their own side. One of these days, I'll get it into a web-useful format and have Elizabeth put it on the INC pages. The other thing I truly miss all the time is the one-page summary of all the resonance check-digit tables. (And maybe some of the other quirky details of the resonances.) I hate flipping through the book to find the right check-digit table. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 19:01:28 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Night Music Nitpicks [Some Spoilers] > Onb the subject of humans not being able to get rid of > diDissoannance, the following thoughts: Splurkit? Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com Better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven. - Milton ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 19:42:19 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Why I didn't buy Night Music Well, 70 pages of the book is still non-Austin, non-adventure material. I'd make the point that reading the "official" SJ Games treatment of a major city gives you a better idea of what the world at large is like, and it's bound to spark some ideas. As for the adventure, even if your PCs don't actually play it, it is part of an ongoing storyline that will weave through the entire Revelations cycle. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 03:28:31 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Why I didn't buy Night Music On Fri, 01 Aug 97 18:39 EDT, Walter Milliken wrote: >My two big peeves with the GM screen is that the Superior relations >chart isn't useful enough, and there are no resonance check-digit >charts. Ah, another useful set of items. >The other thing I truly miss all the time is the one-page summary of all >the resonance check-digit tables. (And maybe some of the other quirky >details of the resonances.) I hate flipping through the book to find >the right check-digit table. Yes, all the 1-6 tables would be nice to have summarized. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 21:40:26 -0700 (PDT) From: nightgaunt@earthlink.net (Alexander Shearer) Subject: Re: IN> Why I didn't buy Night Music >Well, 70 pages of the book is still non-Austin, non-adventure material. > Ah...I was hoping someone would be able to tell me how the page breakdown works. Okay, that's nice. Maybe enough to convince me to purchase. Maybe. >I'd make the point that reading the "official" SJ Games treatment of a >major city gives you a better idea of what the world at large is like, and >it's bound to spark some ideas. As for the adventure, even if your PCs >don't actually play it, it is part of an ongoing storyline that will weave >through the entire Revelations cycle. Argh. It might, but I still don't like having to buy one to get the other. I don't really care all that much about an official SJG treatment of a city...it's interesting to see how full they decide to make a given city, but it doesn't help all that much. In general, the city where your campaign is centered will be "special." I might be interested in a work up of, say, Santa Cruz (assuming nothing celestially special is happening there at the moment). If I'm going to keep up with a "world-developing" storyline, which I sometimes do, I'd rather just hear a synopsis or read it in a fictionalized form. This is not, however, a call for IN paperbacks unless they can rise above the quality of most RPG-based fiction. My basic problem with Night Music is...why is it all together like it is? Can I expect to have an adventure or setting foisted on me with each new world element I want to read about? Anyway, please don't take my frustration with NM as a frustration with those who like it. This may be another one of those issues where I'm strongly in the minority (like being one of two people on rec.games.mecha who dislikes most anime...). Alexander Shearer nightgaunt@earthlink.net gaunt@uclink4.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #272 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.