From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Aug 3 22:37:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA21756 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:37:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA14818 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 20:34:52 -0500 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 20:34:52 -0500 Message-Id: <199708040134.UAA14818@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #276 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, August 3 1997 Volume 01 : Number 276 In this digest: IN> Saminga and the Pharoahs IN> N> Marc the Smuggler IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy IN> Know your Diabolicals 15: Christopher Re: IN> Why I didn't buy Night Music Janus/Valefor same person (Was: Re: IN> Dominic as Balseraph) Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy Re: IN> Falls the Inquisitor (adventure seed/mad rambling) Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy IN> Laurence and the Catholic Church IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy IN> Dominic the Balseraph RE: IN> Crossovers IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy IN> Why I didn't buy Night Music Re: IN> About Invocations, I think this Re: IN> Know Your Enemies 16 Fluerity IN> AA of Judgement. IN> IN Cities (Was: Why I didn't buy Night Music) IN> Famous celestails Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy IN> Dom as Balseraph Re: IN> S. of Hell -> Demons & a Saints ? (Night Music) IN> Trial of Gabriel IN> Relic Weapons Re: IN> Adventure seed: Not my fault! IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy Re: IN> Why I didn't buy Night Music IN> Know your Diabloicals 15 Christopher ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 10:23:49 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Saminga and the Pharoahs David Edelstein >Or the Egyptians were simply wrong about their dead Pharoahs being Horus and Osiris. < I think that was what I was saying initially. That samingas involvement in a large part of Egyptian Mythology before Yahweh became a Monotheistic god rather implies that Dominic is right and God did create the universe and The other religions we have seen are just weapons used by the two sides in the war. I think? [I have lost track of what I was saying.] Adam Canning Dahak@Compuserve.Com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 10:23:52 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> N> Marc the Smuggler Message text written by INTERNET:in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >>>>Marc gives an invocation bonus for illegal goods smuggled from another country. Not quite the sort of entity that really believes in legalisation of controled substances.<<< Marc doesn't encourage smuggling because he likes breaking laws. That would be a demon's motivation! < True, Marc encourges smuggling because it serves his interpretation of his word i.e giving of oneself in a freely made agreement. Marc doesn't discourage smuggling either and he isn't very intrested in legalities either. The Beads that bought Manhatten after all were part of an illegel agreement [Native American Law didn't allow the ownership of land so the Locals could not legally sell it.] Marc like most archangels doesn't seem to wory about human law at all [Only Dominic is worried by what the humans make legal or illegal and he is more intrested in whether the law is fair than what it says.] Marcs concern is agreements made freely which doesnot cover smugglers since they do not agree with the law against smuggling. The text you are quoting is biased anyway since demons of Fluerity are likely to look down on Angels of Marc for their scruples in not addicting people and then selling them drugs [which is not an agreement mafde freely when it is under the pressure of addiction] >But removing the obstacles would be even better....< Then wouldn't a copy of a free trade agreement be a better item for the invocation modifier list? Adam Canning Dahak@Compuserve.Com Archangels Allied to Marc: None [Possibly Litheroy] Archangels Associated with Marc : Janus [IN p 129] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 10:23:58 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy From: kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) >>contrary to Islam.) "Make the punishment fit the crime" means equal >severity for the injury you caused. Stealing a candy bar from someone >doesn't harm them as much as cutting off their hand, so that wouldn't be an >appropriate punishment. For such a trivial theft, making restitution and >apologizing would probably satisfy a Servitor of Judgment. Malakim? < Malakim especially, they have that little oath against letting evil survive. A Legal system that imposes excessive penalties is evil. Not to mention the dissonace for allowing a greater punishment than crime. >>Some people have suggested Dominic is persecuting Eli and Gabriel because >of a personal grudge, and that he went after Michael for similar reasons. I >see him as being more impersonal than that. I don't. Dominic has his point of view. All others are heresies.< Eli is out of control and out of his mind [IN p116] Gabriel is too disturbed to rehabilitate [IN p118] Doesn't look like Dominics wrong to be worried about them. On the Heresy point Dominic listens when Yves speaks, even when it is against his personnal views. Neither Gabriel or Eli have ever answered the cases against them. Micheal did and God quashed the case on public intrest grounds. Why dominic is as hard on ardchangels as it appears he is is given no reason. However he is the Archangel of Judgement and his behaviour may be intended to cause some other result than the one it appears he is after, i.e. if you start trying the other archangels for herasy it encourages them to prove themselves not guilty and to work together, something that Gabriel and Micheal seem to find difficult. It also sends a signal to the lesser angels, stick to the party line or have proof you are right to deviate. Something which seems to be needed when you consider what Druiel and Tomas are upto. Adam Canning Dahak@Compuserve.Com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 10:22:41 -0400 From: speaks@mindspring.com Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy At 01:27 AM 8/3/97 -0500, Andrew Getting wrote: >"Dominic... declared her heretical and tried to have her exiled > from Heaven." > > - In Nomine, page 118 > >He tried to force an Archangel into being Outcast. >Astoundingly bad idea. You would prefer have an insane firebrand in your ranks? The last thing I would want in a war is an incredibly powerful insane person on MY side. >>>>>Gabriel's been present at the founding of Judaism, Christianity, >>and Islam. She embodies the principles of education and enlightenment >>(both of which were better exemplified by Muslims than Christians >>at the time). Dominic called her in for not being his kind of angel, >>not because she was betraying Heaven or her Word.<<< >> >>That's one possible assumption. Not necessarily the correct one, though. > >What other options do you propose? I like the option that Gabriel was listening to Yves as if he were God. THAT and not starting islam was the no-no. >>I'm not overlooking the "Inquisition" part, but the "Divine" part, to me, >>makes it unlikely that Dominic would become as blind to justice as the >>Earthly Inquisition did. An "Inquisition" in itself is not inherently evil. > >I disagree. The triatic method of the Inquisiton involves >the loss of all privacy, dignity, and respect for the accused. I don't understand why you say this. I think that the Seraph could be very respectful. The others don't ask questions. They just keep you from running. >>>>>Not the point made. Dominic, it would seem, has an exceptionally >>dim view of non-Catholics/Christians.<<< >> >>Again, you're assuming a great deal. Dominic probably has a dimmer view of >>corrupt Catholic priests than he does of honest atheists. > >Then why did he try to exile Gabriel for Islam but not >Christianity? Perhaps with Christianity Gabriel was operating under GODS instructions and with Islam he was operating under Yves's instructions. Speaks "He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice." -- Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 10:23:38 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Know your Diabolicals 15: Christopher Message text written by INTERNET:in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > I think what Mr. Leuchen meant by "What planet did you grow up on?" >is that faction politics are a part of childhood. > Kids gang up and tease other kids. Cliques form, containing some, >excluding others. Us versus Them happens all through childhood. Sometimes >it's Grown ups versus Kids, sometimes students versus teachers, and >sometimes boys versus girls. Heck, I've read that the latter division >happens about the same age all over the world, regardless of culture. > I've never seen a schoolyard where there weren't factions of some >kind. Everybody has preferences towards the type of people they want to >associate with, save for people who are too young to tell people apart, and >that's where factions begin. From what I understand Malphas stands for deliberate creation of Factions and for deliberate action between tham and along with Aelmon for ever increasing Paranoia. Not what I remember from school where while there were personal differences they didn't break down into my gang verses your gang. That may be unusual though. Either way the sort of groupings you are describing are not actively hostile towards each other, more not interacting. > I'd imagine a servitor of Christopher saying something like this >instead. > Malphas: "The truly innocent have no faction politics, but nobody >stays truly innocent for long. The Minions of Malphas will lurk around >playgrounds, starting brawls for kicks, and they love reducing the >functionality of a family. Be ready to give them a spanking." That is a better epigram than I managed and it fits what I see the situation as. Beth, if its not too much trouble could you swap the above description for the one I did when you put KYD 15 on your web site. Adam Canning Dahak@Compuserve. Com 'It takes you back does it not, to the days when the world was young, our hearts where pure and there were no problems in human relations that could not be solved by the application of sufficient quantities of high explosive?' Kutznetsov :- The Wizardry Quested by Rick Cook ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 08:00:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Bowman Subject: Re: IN> Why I didn't buy Night Music On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Gregory Littmann wrote: > Hm. SJG is pretty wary of doing adventures for GURPS for just the > reason that people don't buy them. I know that GURPS players are probably > unusually self-reliant, but I don't think *anyone* makes money off of > adventures. I have even been told, though obviously not the the companies > themeslves, that White Wolf and TSR only do adventures to promote their > games, without those adventures being profitable in themselves. If > someone has heard the same thing, or indeed, something different, I'd be > interested in hearing about it. I can believe that, but what about Chaosium? There always putting out new adventures for Call of Cthulhu. Michael Bowman bvmi@odin.cc.pdx.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 13:50:41 +0100 From: Sam Kington Subject: Janus/Valefor same person (Was: Re: IN> Dominic as Balseraph) Stacy Stroud wrote: [snip] > JANUS: I've *never* liked the theft aspect of Janus' Word. And given the > *strong* hints that he and Valefor are the same guy, I'm glad that Dominic > looks askance at him. In the French version, Janus and Valefor are *officially* the same guy. While Janus was working his way up the ranks as a Servitor of Mathias, Archangel of Confusion, a double agent whose Servitors can look like Demons, tell when their cover has been blown and exhibit demonic-type powers. (The original version does not have the concept of Celestial Forms, so the only way to tell angels, demons and humans apart is by their aura, which is larger the more powerful they are.) Anyway, Janus became an Archangel after a particularly spectacular theft (from right under the nose of Kronos himself, allegedly); then started working his way up the Demonic ranks, to eventually become a Demon Prince after a spectacular theft from right under the nose of Yves himself ;-). Dominic and Asmodeus don't know. God does, and He's quite pleased with the situation: Janus/Valefor is a particularly striking example of the Good/Evil duality, and if ever He wants to stop the War and strive towards forgiveness, he's got a good starting point. Sam - -- There are *my* opinions, dammit, and let no-one say otherwise. Home page: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ INWO Homebrew: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/cgi/illuminati Grabel's Law: 2 is not equal to 3 - not even for large values of 2. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 97 13:38:37 -0500 (CDT) From: kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy At 03:45 AM 8/3/97 -0400, in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: >>>>He is "the most powerful angel, in mind and body", he "bested Lucifer in >hand-to-hand combat". He is, by inference, either the second or third most >powerful being there is (second only to God and perhaps Yves).<<< > > >And pride cometh before a Fall.... Using cliches won't prove a point. Michael's probably been proud ever since he made a footprint on Lucifer's ass. Kestrel ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:46:22 +0000 From: "Captain Nemo" Subject: Re: IN> Falls the Inquisitor (adventure seed/mad rambling) Casca earlier replied: > On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, David Edelstein wrote: > > > BUT-- I simply can't buy the idea that all the other Archangels could fail > > to notice a Fallen Archangel in their midst. (Especially a Balseraph! > > Malakim, especially Laurence and David, would sense him eventually even if > > no one else could.) > > I'm not so sure of that...Dissonance and Discord can be sensed, sure, but > can general 'demonicness'? Under specific circumstances, yes. Malakim can detect Balseraphs on a successful resonance roll with a CD of 6 (p. 101). A Balseraphic Dominic would have to be even *more* careful around Yves's Malakim, who can tell whether a given Symphony disturbance is diabolical or divine. If just one traces a diabolic disturbance back to Dom, it's going downhill. Worse, if he tells Dom that he's done this, and Dom uses his Seraphic resonance and finds the Malakim is telling the truth, Dom gets dissonance. The worst extrapolation is that some seraph is told, and gets a 6 on the CD. Then it goes downhill *fast*. > As long as he's very, very careful -- and he > will be, because he believes himself to be an angel and acts > accordingly -- it shouldn't show up. No, not necessarily. If he feels himself to be an angel, that gives him *less* reason to be careful, not more. E.g., there's no need to avoid disturbing the Symphony around Yves's Malakim if he thinks of himself as an angel. Neat idea. Realistically speaking, impossible to pull off for centuries on end. *Someone*, *sometime* would get suspicious, and the Balseraph would be discovered, even with the little boost from Lucifer for Dom to get his original Seraphic resonance back. - --Nemo ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:19:43 +0500 From: "James Rand" Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy > And pride cometh before a Fall.... Grrr. I need to run an IN game where Lucifer is the Good Guy sometime real soon. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:35:57 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy >>>Neither is it devoid of injustice.<<< Yes, I'm sure there have been mistakes over the millenia. Look, if you want to see Dominic as a petty, arrogant tyrant who crucifies anyone who looks at him cross-eyed and basically has no qualities that would set him apart from Asmodeus, feel free to run him that way. I think it's silly, which is why I tend to speak up when I see the more illogical kneejerk "Judgment....Bad Thing!" comments. - -David http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/innomine.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:35:55 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Laurence and the Catholic Church >>>I don't. Laurence wants the Catholic Church to be the single most powerful group on Earth. This would mean its tenets be important as well. Dominic's kinda iffy, though. I could see it either way.<<< You have to look at his motives for supporting the Church. Remember, angels are above dogma, and even Catholics don't all agree on these issues. Do you think Laurence believes something because the Pope says it? ;) For that matter, Archangels are in a position to *know* whether homosexuals are automatically damned to Hell, aren't they? - -David http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/innomine.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:35:56 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy >>>A successful Judgement on an angel can indeed cast an Angel out of Heaven.<<< Destroy him, more likely. If Dominic finds someone guilty of something worthy of expulsion, he'd destroy the angel rather than create a new demon. >>>Regardless, an Angel on the verge of Falling can be brought back. One given a push can't be helped so easily.<<< It's all a matter of how you try to bring 'em back.....with support and unconditional acceptance, "tough love", or harsh discipline? Each of these methods is used by several Archangels....Dominic obviously prefers the latter. I don't think Servitors of Judgment "push" people. If one of Dominic's Servitors *could* be shown to have precipitated a Fall, I think Dominic would be the first one on that angel's case. - -David http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/innomine.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:35:52 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Dominic the Balseraph >>>I'm not so sure of that...Dissonance and Discord can be sensed, sure, but can general 'demonicness'?<<< Balseraphs, by Malakim, on a check digit of 6-- yes. And I would imagine that Archangels have perceptions FAR superior to that of the average angel. >>>And give him a few minutes alone with Laurence and David and I'm -sure- he could convince them that their fears were ill-founded.... ;)<<< I doubt it.....I imagine David and Laurence both have pretty high Wills, and all you need is a basic Will roll (not even a contest) to resist a Balseraph's resonance. Sure, a Superior Balseraph has a stronger resonance, but all things being equal, a Balseraph isn't likely to be able to convince a strong-willed celestial, and I think David is at *least* Dominic's equal. - -David http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/innomine.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:52:00 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: RE: IN> Crossovers I thought of an interesting Cross-over, In Nomine/Lost souls. For those of you who haven't heard of it, Lost Souls is a game where you play a ghost trying to gain enough Karma so that your next incarnation you can come back as better then a Bannana slug. This would be interesting, as demons and angels try and hinder or help the various spirits get to one of theyr realms rather then come back to earth. Shadowcat All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:35:54 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy >>>>That's one possible assumption. Not necessarily the correct one, though. What other options do you propose?<<< Option 1) Dominic suspected Gabriel of acting on her own authority, not God's (and see my earlier hypothesis that he might not even have known about Yves's involvement when he initiated the proceedings.) Option 2) Gabriel was and has since been acting a bit loony, even before the Islam debacle. Quite possibly cause for Dominic to be concerned. Option 3) It was a political move, designed to defend Dominic's favored medium, Christianity. Which is a less admirable motive, but it still makes it a calculated strategic ploy, the sort that most Archangels engage in, rather than exercising a personal grudge. >>>I disagree. The triatic method of the Inquisiton involves the loss of all privacy, dignity, and respect for the accused.<<< We'll just have to disagree, then. - -David http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/innomine.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:35:53 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Why I didn't buy Night Music >>>I have no problem with "Revelations," and stories and plots that develop as supplements are released. The totally contingent nature of the creation of the DP of Hardcore, however, really gives me pause. The way the adventure is set up, it seems very likely to me that a group of reasonably talented PCs is going to thwart Furfur, yet further cycles will assume he achieved his Princedom. I expect I would have to work very hard as GM to keep him from failing, and if I wanted to work very hard, I'd write my own damn adventure.<<< The PCs usually stopped Furfur in the playtests too. But the rest of the Revelations cycle is not contingent on Furfur succeeding. >>>That said, what is wrong with "disturbing the symphony"? Other than alerting other celestials, is it "bad"? Should it be avoided for any reasons beyond the tactical and stealth?<<< The whole idea of concealing celestial intervention is that celestials aren't *supposed* to be interfering with Earthly events. See Nicole's comments in "A Bright Dream". Everything an angel or a demon does alters the course of human events, which messes with the whole Free Will thing. (I suppose it can be assumed that demons only care about disturbances for tactical reasons.) - -David http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/innomine.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:59:26 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> About Invocations, I think this > Good point.... If the PC were the sort who called for the Big Guys > at ever turn, when things got tough, he shouldn't have gotten > the distinction in the first place. (And if he gets to be a pill > about it, well, what Superiors give, Superiors can take away...) > > Perhaps a +1, +2, +3 for Distinctions? (Of course, I'm not > Karakash, but I feel in an authoritive mood right now.) > > It's certainly a good house rule, and one I think I'm going to > make big eyes at the local GM about. This is not unreasonable as a house rule with the following caveat: This makes Superiors ridiculously easy to summon in several cases. If such a rule were in place in a campaign, I would tell the GMs that AA/DPs hold their Servitors with distinctions to a much higher standard than the rest of their minions. Not just in terms of power, but in terms of judgement. Also those distinctions are given out to help servitors do their job better ("I give you this power and you _still_ keep calling me!") not to make celestial phone calls easier. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:29:46 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Know Your Enemies 16 Fluerity > Marc gives an invocation bonus for illegal goods smuggled from another > country. Not quite the sort of entity that really believes in legalisation > of controled substances. Oh, but I think he would! If his resonance is for trade, such things as laws to stop trade (this could be drugs... but it could also be Guess Jeans into the USSR) are anathema to him. There are laws to stop the trade in drugs. Therefore, he should be against those laws. On the other hand, Marc is a practical guy and the free trade of dangerous things can be a problem... unless the problems cause by unfree trade are worse. If things will get better, in his opinion, by removing trade restrictions, he's pretty happy about that. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 08:57:13 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: IN> AA of Judgement. In reply to: >Or deviation from the Company Line. Dominic deals >with Asmodeus on a fairly regular basis, but this is not >heresy. At the behest of Yves, Gabriel helped found >Islam, and that was heresy. Sorry, I can't help but >think that Dominic's not someone I'd want in judgement >over anyone. I think a BIG aid to understanding Dominic is to take into account the fact that he is a Seraph. He searches for Truth, but he utterly fails to see what is 'Right' of what the "Circumstances' are. If he was the AA of Justice, he would probably be an Elohite, but he is Judgement. Still, I tend to agree that he's one of the biggest hypocrites (is that the correct spelling?) in Heaven. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:27:31 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: IN> IN Cities (Was: Why I didn't buy Night Music) On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Hermes Trismegistus wrote: > > However, I hope to be able to remedy this. For some time I have been working > on translating certain areas of Sydney into IN settings (I'd do the other > cities, but I don't know them well enough). So far I have worked out > (roughly) a Tether for Jordi, and one for Kobal. I haven't added another yet > as there doesn't seem to be an appropriate one in Sydney (although I have seen > some Servitors of Jean leaving the Novell building in North Sydney :) ). I > may put these up on the list when I can find more info on Tethers and > Seneschals, or if I *really* like them, I may try to work up a whole > supplement and stick it on a web site (with copyright from SJG hopefully). I would be interested in seeing your write up, as a matter of fact I would be interesdted in most city write ups. Idea, why don't folks do In Nomine write ups for theyr local areas and send them to the net. There are a great number of cities that could be interesting, but SJgames wouldn't use. I am presently working on Milwaukee, and have figured out some realy neat tethers for both sides. If enough people are interested I will post it. Shadowcat ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:46:45 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: IN> Famous celestails @ I know that it says in the book that not all famous people are celestials, but My Lady and I got in a discussion this afternoon about, which form of celestial different celebs would be. This got started when Madona's song "You Must Love Me" was playing and we both responded, no we don't. Our verdict was she was a "Dim Lillim" meening that she waqs so bad at getting geases that she was cast out of the lillims. We came up with some others. Bette Midler = Mercurian Catherine Hepburn = Bright Lillim Rin Tin Tin = Malakite of Jordi ;-) What others can you think of? Shadowcat All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:54:40 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy On Aug 2, 11:27am, Andrew Getting wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy > At 03:17 PM 7/21/97 -0400, in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: > >>>>By modern american standards all angels are bad. [They want you to be > >chaste,hetrosexual, temperate,<<< > > > >Uh, no, there's no indication that most In Nomine angels care about your > >sexual activities or orientation. (Other than inasmuch as it affects how > >you treat others.) In Nomine angels aren't following any one religious > >doctrine, remember? > > Dominic and Laurence are. They aren't following it so much as _promoting_ it. That particular religion is close enough to what they think is the right tool to help humanity/defeat evil. Perhaps some, currently unknown or not-yet-developed, sect of christianity will be what they really are aiming at. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 09:15:11 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: IN> Dom as Balseraph In reply to: >>Transpose the vowels in his name. Dominic --> Dimonic. Demonic! >>The reason he wears the cloak is because HE'S A BALSERAPH! > >Dominic's Malakim have the ability to hear discord like a wailing >scream. Don't you think they would have noticed if the boss set off >car alarms when he walked by? Don't forget that if he was a Balseraph, he wouldn't be able to create true angels, therefore his 'Heavenly Servants' would consist of Balseraphs, Calabim etc etc. If the DPs could create the equivalent of Malakim ('Never suffer a Good to Live, *he he he*) they would have long ago (IMO, of course). Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:51:13 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> S. of Hell -> Demons & a Saints ? (Night Music) On Aug 2, 9:47am, Grim88 wrote: > Subject: IN> S. of Hell -> Demons & a Saints ? (Night Music) > In my readings of NM, I have come across what I feel is an error. I remember > some time ago, a canon ruling stating that humans can never become > celestials, either demons or angels, that they are two completely differant > speicies so to say. On pages 51 & 52, however, it is explicitly stated that > Soldiers can indeed become Demons when they die. Frankly what I want to know > is, "what up wit dat?" That should be read ironically. Here are the two sections. p.51 "Stories abound among the Hellsword of those who have made themselves a place in the Pit after death, and have even become demons. It can happen. But the truth is that Soldiers are usually Fated to die horrific deaths and to spend eternity screaming in Hell." p.52 "It is [the highest class of Hellsworn] who _believe_ they have the best chance of becoming a demon after death..." (emphasis mine) Humans cannot become demons (or angels). Period. (House rules notwithstanding, of course.) The infernal masters of these misguided humans hold out these tantalizing lies to keep the Hellsworn on the right (wrong) path until they are of no use. They are convinced at every turn that they have nowhere else to turn so they had better be _damned_ sure to serve Hell well. The stick is always evident and this is the carrot. For a way to handle this matter in a particularly gruesome fashion, see the spoilers at the end of the message. (Players shouldn't read it since there's a good plot element for a soldier's of hell campaign...) > > The second thing I wanted to address was this: Under Laurances expanded > write-up, it is stated that Saints are reincarnated and are born again and > lose their memories until a tramatic event happens each time they go back to > earth. In the Saints section, it mentions buying a Role and vessel, which > seems to imply this is not the case. Again, I ask the question, "what up wit > dat?" Ummmm.... I don't know. Lemme get back to you on that one! In my campaign, a worthy sub-demon may be given the opporunity to 'eat' the soul of some soldier of Hell, thereby granting the necessary forces in order to be a true demon plus some skills and a Role if necessary. To the compatriots of the former soldier, he has 'graduated' to demonhood and in a way that is true. The soldier is gone and is replaced by a demon. The soldier's soul has been consumed utterly, but hey, them's the risks you take! - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 09:12:22 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: IN> Trial of Gabriel In reply to: >But that wasn't the point behind what happened to Gabriel. Gabriel >was Inquisited because she seemed to support Islam. A better analogy >(from Dominic's point of view) would be if it were suspected that >Eisenhower had written "Mein Kampf". It's ludicrous to think of such >a thing, just as it's ludicrous to think that just because Gabriel >recited to Q'uran to Mohammed that she had somehow betrayed Heaven. >But that's directly the implication that the rulebook makes about the >relationship between Dominic and Gabriel. IMO, Gabriel wasn't tried so much for supporting Islam, she was tried for breaking God's command "Thou shalt not reveal the secrets of the Symphony to man'. Gabriel went and quoted quite a few secrets away (in the IN universe). She was acting under orders from Yves, and he defended her. Now Dominic would not investigate her for thinking she was lying (he's a very powerful Seraph, and would KNOW if she were lying), I think he merely saw the Turth that she told secrets, but once again failed to view the circumstances surrounding that action. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:07:29 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Relic Weapons What is the point of Nicole's Holy Pistol/1 ? It does check digit times 1 damage Revolvers do Checjk digit damage and do not cost a character point per shot. Also Marcus must have been a lot more hurt than he appeared if 1d6 damage took him down. Adam Caning Dahak@Compuserve.Com Hoping that some one will tell me gently that I've misunderstood the rules in this case. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:08:50 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Adventure seed: Not my fault! > 1) A Geas can't be used to demand something above the level of the Geas. > The rules don't make it explicit, but I'd say if a Lilim (or anyone else) > holding a Level 1 Geas on someone tried to invoke it for a Level 6 favor, > the target doesn't even need to make a Will roll to resist. There's no > backlash-- the Geas hasn't even been invoked properly. (Or if you're a mean > GM, you could say it vanishes.) You're right and the mechanics section under Lilim pretty much link the size of the original favor done to the one that can be redeemed. > 2) Again, the rules don't make it clear, but I don't think if a Lilim > trades a Geas she holds on someone to another person, that *she* will take > dissonance if the subject resists when the Geas is finally invoked by a > third party. Seems to me if this could happen, Lilim would be a lot less > likely to trade Geases! (Are you really going to count on Lilith's ire > saving you?) I thing, though I could be wrong, that only if a _Lilim_ tries to invoke a Geas (and if it fails) does _that_ Lilim get any Dissonance. Beth would be the best person to ask about this, but if a non-Lilim tried to redeem a Geas and failed, there would be no reprecussions for anyone. What do you think Elizabeth? - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:07:34 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy >>>>Neither does he need any real justification for it. There's a reason he's called an Inquisitor - just ask Gabriel.<<<< And watch while she indulges in casual automasocistic behaviour while being rather casual about her problrms with Dominic [ IN p12] Face it, Gabriel is about as sane as the Alice's Tea circle and Eli not much better. Janus on the other hand is just a Kleptomaniac. Adam Cannig Dahak@Compuserve.Com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 10:10:47 +1000 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Why I didn't buy Night Music Hermes Trismegistus wrote: > > Now, after straying from the point I was originally making: I don't want > background info on US cities. The only campaign I have ever written for > America was Rifts[1], everything else is local. This means that settings, and > usually adventures, are of no real use to me as they do not apply to my games. > Other gamers from Australia, England and wherever else[2] may agree with me > on this, maybe its just my problem. > Easy for you... you live in Sydney, where things do _happen_ occasionally. Try running a decent game set in Brisbane. Players always want to know why important things happen in one of the world's backwaters. The possibility does exist, however, for 'canon' Australian material - White Wolf put out Rage Across Australia, which was written by a group of gamers from Sydney. Make enough noise and have enough material for submission to SJG, and you might get somewhere... - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia Covered with hope and vaseline Still cannot fix this broken machine Watching the hole, it used to be mine Just watching it burn in my steady systematic decline NINE INCH NAILS, "Gave Up" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:10:47 -0500 (CDT) From: Martin Leslie Leuschen Subject: IN> Know your Diabloicals 15 Christopher > From: Nana Yaw Ofori > >From: Adam Canning > >Martin Leslie Leuschen > >>> Malphas: The innocent have no faction politics. How he grinds his teeth > >> about that. > > > >What planet did you grow up on?< > > > >Its not which planet I grew up on that matters [Hong Kong for your > >information] . Its more that Christophers party line is faction politics > >didn't occur before the fall when the angels were innocent. Remember > >Celestials do not really under stand peopel very well. Besides Faction > >politics immplies [at least to me] the need for a level of cynisism > >incompatable with innocence. It takes a certain amount of wordly wise > >experience to deside that lying and stabing your friends in the back is an > >advatages behaviour pattern, as opposed to doing it by accident. > > > > I think what Mr. Leuchen meant by "What planet did you grow up on?" > is that faction politics are a part of childhood. Thank you. That is exactly what I meant. I really should have included a smiley for my reply though - it came out like a flame. (Bad Martin! No watermelon!) I apologise to Mr. Canning for that. I am firmly of the opinion that Malphas' servitors love kids though. It's so easy to gain Essence from them.... OTOH, in a really idealistic IN campaign, children might *really* be innocent little Heidi clones. Sure, it's a little more cinematic than the rest of the IN setting, but it is a cliche worth considering. :) Regards, Martin Leuschen martinl@rice.edu Kyrio of Superiors ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #276 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.