From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Aug 5 01:44:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA00103 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:44:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA27375 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:53:38 -0500 Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:53:38 -0500 Message-Id: <199708042053.PAA27375@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #278 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, August 4 1997 Volume 01 : Number 278 In this digest: IN> Know your Diabloicals 15 Christopher iIN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy IN> S. of Hell -> Demons & a Saints ? (Night Music) Re: IN> Religions and patron Archangels IN> Ways to detect angels/demons Re: IN> Why I DID buy Night Music Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy Re: IN> Religious Patrons Re: IN> Dominic as Balseraph Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy IN> Re: Relic Weapons Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy Re: IN> Ways to detect angels/demons What *would* you buy? (Re: IN> Why I didn't buy Night Music) Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy Re: Janus/Valefor same person (Was: Re: IN> Dominic as Balseraph) Re: IN> S. of Hell -> Demons & a Saints ? (Night Music) Re: IN> Why I DID buy Night Music Re: IN> IN Cities IN> Last Session's Qestions... Re: IN> Why I DID buy Night Music Re: IN> Question about Servitors IN> Maarath, Familiar Outcast from Fire Re: IN> Why I DID buy Night Music IN> Children and Factions IN> Laurence and the Catholic Church Re: IN> Why I didn't buy Night Music Re: What *would* you buy? (Re: IN> Why I didn't buy Night Music) Re: IN> Why I didn't buy Night Music ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 06:58:53 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Know your Diabloicals 15 Christopher From: Martin Leslie Leuschen > I apologise to Mr. Canning for that. No problem, Nana Yaw Ofori came up with a better quote than I did anyway. >OTOH, in a really idealistic IN campaign, children might *really* be >innocent little Heidi clones. Sure, it's a little more cinematic than >the rest of the IN setting, but it is a cliche worth considering Disney/In Nomine? or is it Brave New World/In Nomine? [I like being a Beta because Alphas have to think to much and so are more likely to go to hell and Gammas are stupid and easy for demons to trick...] Adam Canning Dahak@Compuserve.Com "The hills are alive to the Sound of Music..." unfortunately for Furfur it is not Hardcore. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 06:58:43 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: iIN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy From: "James Rand" >> And pride cometh before a Fall.... >Grrr. I need to run an IN game where Lucifer is the >Good Guy sometime real soon. Steven Brust's To Reign in Hell gives a well thought out version of just such a thing. Satan and Yahweh fall out over the number of casualties involved in constructing Earth. It ends with Lilith, Satan and several others swearing to do battle on earth to oppose Yahweh's lies.... Adam Canning Dahak@Compusere.Com "We werre wrought up with ideas inexpressable and vaporous, but to be fought for. When we had achieved and the new world dawned, the old men came out and took our victory to re-make in the likeness of the former world the knew... We stammered that we had worked for a new heaven and a new earth, and they thanked us kindly and made their peace." Seven Pillars of Wisdom ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 06:58:50 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> S. of Hell -> Demons & a Saints ? (Night Music) From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" > "Stories abound among the Hellsword of those who have made themselves a place in the Pit after death, and have even become demons. It can happen. But the truth is that Soldiers are usually Fated to die horrific deaths and to spend eternity screaming in Hell."< I think you are missing the sentance "It can happen." in your analyisis. Also what I seen of canon answers on the web page said Humans could not become angels, no mention of demons. If there is more than there was in the Saints and Sorcercers essay, I apologise, but the text in Night Music seems to be clear a few Soldiers of Hell can become Demons. On the two write ups on saints the only way of reconciling them I can See is that Saints Vessels unlike Angelic ones have to be born and grow up in the usual way [thus explaining why they avoid disturbing the symphony, since they are part of it.] and once the saint has been embodied it takes some incident to enable them to regain the use of their memories [which would be inconvenient while growing up] and become an active saint. Aisha Hejazi may for example be a saint in the amnesiac stage or one that has suffered etherial force damage in a previous incarnation. I cannot see a point in a saint buying a role except to get the intrinsic how to skill, Saints do not generate disturbances in the Symphony. Adam Canning Dahak@Compuserve.Com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 08:07:47 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> Religions and patron Archangels > Actually, the rulebook states that Yves supports Islam. Actually, the rulebook states that Yves supported religion in general, but has given that up of late. > How about Metatron for Judaism? (He has a rather extensive write-up in > the Dictionary of Angels by Gustav Davidson). He's dead; Lucy formed Hell out of the carcass. > Thomas Davidson > tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us Oops da Ogre, although Metatron _does_ make a good patron of Judaism mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 06:13:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott Shorter Subject: IN> Ways to detect angels/demons A while ago somebody posted a comprehensive list of ways for a celestial to detect whether another celestial's is angelic or infernal. Could that be re-posted, or is it available on the web? It might help to quash the "Dominic the Demon" meme... (cute idea, but seems highly unlikely...) === When you have got an elephant by the hind leg, and he is trying to run away, it's best to let him run. - --Abraham Lincoln _____________________________________________________________________ Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 09:34:22 -0400 (EDT) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> Why I DID buy Night Music I haven't bought Night Music yet, because the damn distributer who feeds all the hobby shops in Ann Arbor, Michigan, chose not to put it in the last two week's worth of shipments. Heh. Anyways... > In Nomine is, in large part, a satire and meant to be played as > one (although precious little help for GMs wanting to run a satire game is > given in the rulebook). The situation in Austin could be a satire of > expected celestial interaction, or an homage to "Good Omens". Oh, I disagree strongly. Yes, it can have a nice, light plot. That's certainly do-able, but I'm not using one. I think I'm a little too influenced by the Gersholm Sholem Kabbalah books on my shelves, and the collection of KULT sourcebooks. Of course, I haven't read the supplement for the above reasons, but I also know that I will not be using Austin at all. I seriously doubt my players will get as south as Toledo. My players are currently in Alpena, Michigan. If you've ever been to Alpena, you're probably nodding your head right now, going, "Yep, there are demons there". :) > Also, like in Good Omens, it's possible for angels to be tarnished > and demons to have merely sauntered in a vaguely downward direction rather > than being actively malevolent. With the exception of Mercurians and > Impudites, most demons and angels don't necessarily like people. Even if > they're on the other side, and angel and a demon probably have more in > common and than a celestial and a mortal. As long as the demon isn't > doing evil right in front of you or interfering in your plans.... "You > want to talk about what a jerk Haagenti is? Lemme tell you about working > for Yves, buddy!" I love Neil Gaiman AND Terry Pratchett. And I agree, there are some demons who have just sort of taken their time going down the evil road, and aren't really all that evil, they just never got around to doing good. But the other end of that is that demons had to do several somethings continuously to get where they are. Impudites had to callously kill people. Just because they tend to be like humans doesn't mean they aren't serial killers. They use, twist, maim, and destroy people, and most importantly, they think about it first. I think, far worse then any demon, are the humans that worship demons in the manner of Marlowe's Tragical History of Doctor Faustus. With a few well placed promises (see: Lilim) demons can get humans to do alot of very nasty stuff for them all by themselves, and get away with it. I'll defend the potential good in Lilim until the end of time, but demons are bad. They do BAD things. They don't do funny things, they do bad things. Human sacrifice sort of things. Brainwashing sort of things. Murdering entire villages in Nicuragua sort of things. They aren't nice, they're DEMONS. And they deserve to be demons. This doesn't go for all demons, of course. Just most of mine. :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 97 08:51:29 -0500 (CDT) From: kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy At 05:35 PM 8/3/97 -0400, in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: >>>>A successful Judgement on an angel can indeed cast an Angel out of >Heaven.<<< > >Destroy him, more likely. If Dominic finds someone guilty of something >worthy of expulsion, he'd destroy the angel rather than create a new demon. Gabriel's punishment would have been exile. Kestrel ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 10:16:12 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Religious Patrons David Paul wrote: "Okay, so Laurance is the patron of Christianity and Khalid is the patron of Islam. But who are the patrons of other religions? Here are some of my theories: "Judaism: Yves." Actually, for Judaism, I would recommend Michael, on biblical grounds. The first place Gabriel appears by name is in the book of Daniel. In one of the visions, Gabriel tells Daniel (in effect) "I would have gotten here sooner, but I was wayliad by a demon- prince. I was aided by Michael, the prince of your people." So Michael is traditionally the patron angel of Judaism. True, he is also the patron angel of Christianity, but largely because Christianity considers itself the spiritual Israel. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 10:30:33 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Dominic as Balseraph Concerning Dominic's charge of heresy against Gabriel, let me repeat a point made earlier -- Gabriel is described as nuts. I don't have my IN book here (it would look funny in my office), but I don't think her heresy trial drove her nuts. It could well be the other way; perhaps Dominic thought she was "heretical by reason of insanity" -- theologically delusional, a bad state for an archangel to be in. In any case, heresy is a departure from truth, and so is much of insanity. It is plausible that an insane archangel would register as heretical on Dominic's scope. It also makes political sense, when a VIP goes nuts, to "relieve them of command." Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 97 08:51:29 -0500 (CDT) From: kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy At 05:35 PM 8/3/97 -0400, in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: >>>>Neither is it devoid of injustice.<<< > > >Yes, I'm sure there have been mistakes over the millenia. > >Look, if you want to see Dominic as a petty, arrogant tyrant who crucifies >anyone who looks at him cross-eyed and basically has no qualities that >would set him apart from Asmodeus, feel free to run him that way. I think >it's silly, which is why I tend to speak up when I see the more illogical >kneejerk "Judgment....Bad Thing!" comments. I don't. I never have. Keep that in mind. Kestrel ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 11:03:40 -0500 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: IN> Re: Relic Weapons > >Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:07:29 -0400 >From: Adam Canning >Subject: IN> Relic Weapons > >What is the point of Nicole's Holy Pistol/1 ? > It does check digit times 1 damage >Revolvers do Checjk digit damage and do not cost a character point per >shot. > >Also Marcus must have been a lot more hurt than he appeared if 1d6 damage >took him down. > Well, the description of Holy/Unholy Pistols has a few more advantages. oover a normal Revolver. The Holy Pistol/1 holds a point of Essence, but doesn't generate any (Worth 1 point?) I guess the Automatically-Successful Song of Holy Bullet Firing (Works on all three levels, considered Corporeal. Essence Requirement:1. Degree of Disturbance:None. Effects: Allows Holy Bullets to be fired, multiplies damage by level of Song. Character must use his skill to aim bullets. Duration: 1 combat round.) is worth the remaining 5 points. Seems a Choir-Attunement level ability to me. Further Levels fo the artifact are spent one level on the Song, one level on the Essence reservoir. The artifact also has an accuracy of +1, but that's just from fine construction. Alternatively, you could see it as buying the Song of Holy Bullet Firing (3 points/level) into the artifact, with a GURPS-style +100% enhancement for "Automatically Successful." Me, I want a Holy M-16. And then there's the question, If there is a Song of Holy Bullet Firing, why doesn't everybody just learn that Song and fire Holy Bullets from their fingers? The Above are opinions. Feel free to riddle them with holes. = http://www.io.com/~beholder ===================== nofori@pop3.utoled.edu === Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Legion, Party of six thousand. ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 97 08:51:28 -0500 (CDT) From: kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy At 05:35 PM 8/3/97 -0400, in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: >>>>>That's one possible assumption. Not necessarily the correct one, >though. > >What other options do you propose?<<< > >Option 1) Dominic suspected Gabriel of acting on her own authority, not >God's (and see my earlier hypothesis that he might not even have known >about Yves's involvement when he initiated the proceedings.) Then he probably would or should have called them off when Yves defended Gabriel. >Option 2) Gabriel was and has since been acting a bit loony, even before >the Islam debacle. Quite possibly cause for Dominic to be concerned. There's nothing to say that Gabriel was nuts before the trial. Her description, rather, suggests that the trial itself was what pushed her. >Option 3) It was a political move, designed to defend Dominic's favored >medium, Christianity. Which is a less admirable motive, but it still makes >it a calculated strategic ploy, the sort that most Archangels engage in, >rather than exercising a personal grudge. The damage had already been done. How could the exile of an archangel help Christianity? >>>>I disagree. The triatic method of the Inquisiton involves >the loss of all privacy, dignity, and respect for the accused.<<< > >We'll just have to disagree, then. Strong argument. Kestrel ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:54:10 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Ways to detect angels/demons At 6:13 AM -0700 8/4/97, Scott Shorter wrote: >A while ago somebody posted a comprehensive list of ways for a >celestial to detect whether another celestial's is angelic or >infernal. Could that be re-posted, or is it available on the web? http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/Tips.html will get you to the list that includes the "Tips" on how to spot other celestials. Sorry, I forgot what I named the specific file... >It might help to quash the "Dominic the Demon" meme... (cute idea, but >seems highly unlikely...) It's that cloak. It's obviously concealing something. (*I* think it's a resonance-foiler -- y'see, he wants to make sure that all those pesky Elohim don't resonate him and discover that he's actually a marshmellow inside who thinks fluffy thoughts about babies and planting trees. It probably also works on: Lilim, Habbalah, Mercurians, and maybe even Malakim (though I'm not sure about them; depends if he wants everyone knowing what his standards of honor are). Demons who try to enforce their Will on him are, of course, toasted by the backlash. (Never get into a Will contest with a Superior.)) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:47:57 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: What *would* you buy? (Re: IN> Why I didn't buy Night Music) At 12:48 AM -0400 8/2/97, Gregory Littmann wrote: [...] > I, too, am *probably* not going to buy Night Music - despite the fact >that it contains material that I badly want. If only that material were >included with other, similar, material (say a book on x Archangels and >Princes), I most certainly *would* buy it. I'm an In Nomine fan. I want >to buy In Nomine stuff. I just don't want to buy *everything* associated >with In Nomine. I think that most gamers don't want to buy everything >associated with a game, even if its a game they love. Well, considering that Night Music is already published, and the other books of the Revelations cycle are probably in edit mode right now... If SJG pulled out all the stuff and packaged up the Superior expansions, and the other rules-stuff (humans, non-Marches stuff from Marches, etc.), would you buy *that*? Would there be enough people who'd want all their Superior expansions in one place to make it profitable? *I'd* buy it -- especially in hardcover! (I love my hardcover In Nomine, I just *love* it... It stays open where I want it, the cover doesn't peel, I can drop it and not worry about bending the cover...) But would enough? Could they stick frills in it that would make it even more appealing to people who didn't buy the Revalations cycle, and not annoy the people who did? (A check-digit summery, for instance, on a photocopiable page...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Aug 97 17:02:00 GMT From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy >At 01:27 AM 8/3/97 -0500, Andrew Getting wrote: > >> >>>What other options do you propose? >> >>I like the option that Gabriel was listening to Yves as if he were God. THAT >>and not starting islam was the no-no. >Then Dominic probably would have sent a messenger or two >to Gabriel, rather than have one of the most powerful creatures >in Heaven leave there because of his actions. I'm not so sure (and I think I like that interpretation, even if only because 'Thou shalt have no other gods before me' does seem reasonable grounds for a heresy charge on an archangel who is forgetting who she is supposed to be taking orders from - theres no real ground (yet) to think that even the pro-Christian archangels actively persecute all other world religions -- I'd thought it was more a case of supporting their own than trouncing all other parties). In that case it might be desirable to have the issue brought up as widely as possible so that every celestial should see and every celestial should know that no-one is beyond being judged for their actions. Even if God and every archangel in heaven thought Dominic was an idiot to do it, none of them could say that he wasn't trying to uphold his Word. Gabriel probably stymied Dominic by refusing to appear in person because its a general part of the judgement process that the judged party provides a defence and the state provides a prosecution. I suppose they could always skip the defence part to save time though ;) >> >>Perhaps with Christianity Gabriel was operating under GODS instructions and >>with Islam he was operating under Yves's instructions. >We don't have enough evidence to even begin to support that. Well we do know that she was acting under Yves' instruction in the Islam case (although we don't know if he in turn was acting under Gods' instructions). >>Now what you *do* about heresy defines whether or not you're a bigot. >>Dominic is harsh, but IMO, the angels he prosecuted will inevitably have >>done something-- or be suspected of having done something-- that IS a crime >>against Heaven. >Dominic is described as a tyrant. Furthermore, pride and >founding religions isn't, to the best of my knowledge, on >the same level as consorting with the Infernal. Pride was Lucifer's sin. So which is most likely to lead to the fall of an archangel - pride/ hubris.. or consorting with demons? I wonder what happens if Dominic falls prey to hubris - maybe thats why God asked Yves to give the instructions to Gabriel about Islam. He knew what Dominic would do and that the results of it would slap him down hard ;) >Except that Dominic and the Servitors of Judgement consort >with Asmodeus and the Gamers on a semi-regular basis. Thats because we throw really cool parties! jo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 09:39:55 -0700 (PDT) From: "R. Coon" Subject: Re: Janus/Valefor same person (Was: Re: IN> Dominic as Balseraph) On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Sam Kington wrote: > Dominic and Asmodeus don't know. God does, and He's quite pleased with > the situation: Janus/Valefor is a particularly striking example of the > Good/Evil duality, and if ever He wants to stop the War and strive > towards forgiveness, he's got a good starting point. I don't understand at all how ANYONE could miss the correlation. I mean, look at Janus's NAME--the two-faced Roman god?!? What kind of excuse can be made for this? Is God clouding the minds of the angels and demons? For what purpose? Just curiousity mixed with a little confusion... Rob Coon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:20:55 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> S. of Hell -> Demons & a Saints ? (Night Music) On Aug 4, 6:58am, Adam Canning wrote: > Subject: IN> S. of Hell -> Demons & a Saints ? (Night Music) > From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" > > > "Stories abound among the Hellsword of those who have made > themselves a place in the Pit after death, and have even become demons. > It can happen. But the truth is that Soldiers are usually Fated to > die horrific deaths and to spend eternity screaming in Hell."< > > I think you are missing the sentance "It can happen." in your analyisis. Try saying it with a really sarcastic voice. If necessary add 'Not!' or 'Yeah, right!' onto the end. O=) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:16:00 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Why I DID buy Night Music > As for what I would like to see in the future: > - More songs. Please. I shown this game to several people and so far EVERYONE > has said the number of songs should be just about doubled. This is not a > coincidence. This is something that novice gamers and veteran gamers are > seeing right away. A good set of rules are like having a good prop > department. They can't make up for a lack of acting ability, but on the other > hand they don't hurt. There is a tentatively planned book just for Songs. All sorts of Songs. Songs that will make your hair curl (or straighten, or get it just the _right_ shade of beige). No date on this yet, but it won't be in 1997 or early 1998. A Song or two may crop up in other books, if necessary. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 14:15:28 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> IN Cities Shadowcat wrote: > Idea, why don't folks do > In Nomine write ups for theyr local areas and send them to the net. > There > are a great number of cities that could be interesting, but SJgames > wouldn't use. I do like the concepts of IN cities write ups. I'm doing some work on that for Rio, Sao Paulo and Campinas - all of them in the Brazilian Southeast, where I live. I sure could use some other cities in my IN world. BTW, I liked David's IN NY a lot! Andre ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 13:30:42 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: IN> Last Session's Qestions... Hi all! You know, sunday night is Game Night and I started "Feast of Blades" with a Sheddim of Kronos, a Djinn of Vapula and a Mercurian of Yves. Yes, they spend most of their time jumping at each others throats, but that's cool - they are never bored and sometimes I even pull back the main plot to let them dwell in their own small universe. But there's some questions they'd aroused: * When you buy Discord at creation, how many points do you get per level? * Can you raise your characteristics levels at character creation? What is the cost of it? * When their hosts sleep, do the Sheddim go to the Marches (and: Do they need a Will roll to sleep as the other Celestials?)?? If yes, in what form do they appear there?? Well, that was my doubts of yesterday. I bet there will be lots more... Andre ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:50:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Kevin Mowery Subject: Re: IN> Why I DID buy Night Music On Mon, 4 Aug 1997, Emily K. Dresner wrote: > > Also, like in Good Omens, it's possible for angels to be tarnished > > and demons to have merely sauntered in a vaguely downward direction rather > > than being actively malevolent. With the exception of Mercurians and > > Impudites, most demons and angels don't necessarily like people. Even if > > they're on the other side, and angel and a demon probably have more in > > common and than a celestial and a mortal. As long as the demon isn't > > doing evil right in front of you or interfering in your plans.... "You > > want to talk about what a jerk Haagenti is? Lemme tell you about working > > for Yves, buddy!" > > I love Neil Gaiman AND Terry Pratchett. And I agree, there are some > demons who have just sort of taken their time going down the evil road, > and aren't really all that evil, they just never got around to doing good. > > But the other end of that is that demons had to do several somethings > continuously to get where they are. Impudites had to callously kill > people. Just because they tend to be like humans doesn't mean they aren't > serial killers. They use, twist, maim, and destroy people, and most > importantly, they think about it first. I'll agree with you there. A lot of demons are really vicious bastards. But on the other hand, what I think I was trying to get at was that lots of angels are also vicious bastards. Angels protect humans and all that stuff because it's what they're supposed to do. Not because they really like humans all that much necessarily. Take, for instance, the characters of Druiel from Night Music. Here's a Seraph who seriously misunderstood his Word, Teenage Death, and now goes around offing teenagers to bring other teenagers a sense of mortality. Even the demons think this is a bit on the insane side. That an angel could do this and still be an angel (and think there's nothing wrong with it) emphasizes that there may be a gap between celestials and mortals far bigger than between angels and demons. Kevin "Professor Bobo" Mowery______________kemowery@freenet.columbus.oh.us "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals." --Kay, "Men In Black" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 13:53:29 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> Question about Servitors Henry Leirvoll wrote: > How do Angels and Demons create Servitors. I find lilttle help about > this in the main book. > > I mean.. a lot of information on how to design them, but during game - > for instance - what is the process? Have you read "A Bright Dream"?? Nicole does just that - a plain recruitment. Most of the servants are approached by the Celestials and told some aspects of the Symphony. From their master's point of view and interests, of course... > How does a Demon make a Vampire? - does he roll anything? I haven't read NM yet, but I guess they explain just that there... I know a Vampire is born when something goes wrong when making a Mummy, some ritual os Saminga's servitors... > How does he make a mortal aware of the Celestial World - how does he > teach him to use his Essence? I'd like to know that myself... Can a Celestial give extra Essence to a mortal making him a 6 force person - a Soldier?? Andre ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 14:20:49 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Maarath, Familiar Outcast from Fire Two problems (don'cha just hate that? ;)) 1) A spirit who is no longer performing the service for which it was sent to Earth gets yanked back to the celestial plane. That would probably include ceasing to serve your master. 2) Why *can't* he assume celestial form to check whether he's Fallen? Still, the idea of an Outcast/Fallen spirit is interesting. Wonder if an imp could be Redeemed? ;) - -David http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/innomine.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:00:53 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Why I DID buy Night Music At 9:34 AM -0400 8/4/97, Emily K. Dresner wrote: [...] >I love Neil Gaiman AND Terry Pratchett. And I agree, there are some >demons who have just sort of taken their time going down the evil road, >and aren't really all that evil, they just never got around to doing good. > >But the other end of that is that demons had to do several somethings >continuously to get where they are. Impudites had to callously kill >people. No, they didn't -- an Impudite might have been a Mercurian of Janus who stayed in town too long. Or a Mercurian of Laurence who wasn't good at following orders. Or a Mercurian of Michael who developed cowardice for reasons that seemed good at the time... Only angels of Creation Fall by denying their own natures -- Seraphim lying, Cherubim failing to protect, Ofanim failing period, Elohim getting too involved, Kyriotates getting their hosts trashed, or Mercurians killing humans. Every other angel can Fall by getting in trouble with his Archangel's dissonance conditions. Mind you, it can sometimes take a lot of doing to get that bad, and they *did* have to contineously get bad luck or whatever, but it might have been a conflict with the boss. (Nitpick, me? ) >I think, far worse then any demon, are the humans that worship demons in >the manner of Marlowe's Tragical History of Doctor Faustus. With a few >well placed promises (see: Lilim) demons can get humans to do alot of very >nasty stuff for them all by themselves, and get away with it. And it doesn't even make Symphonic noise that way! >I'll defend the potential good in Lilim until the end of time, but demons >are bad. They do BAD things. They don't do funny things, they do bad >things. Human sacrifice sort of things. Brainwashing sort of things. >Murdering entire villages in Nicuragua sort of things. They aren't nice, >they're DEMONS. And they deserve to be demons. > >This doesn't go for all demons, of course. Just most of mine. :) And it's always the exceptions that are really interesting. (Though even some of the Bad ones can be interesting as characters. The sorts of NPCs you love to hate. Servitors of Baal might have a twisted honor... Servitors of Kobal *can* be *very* funny...in a nasty sort of way... And Servitors of Lust are lovely eye-candy.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 14:20:51 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Children and Factions >>> Indeed, it has always seemed to me that the innocence of children has more to do with lack of power to do evil than lack of nastiness. If anything, humans are born bad, but with loving care can gain a sense of empathy that makes them fit for decent society.<<< Humans are born *selfish*, because there is no natural reason to care about anyone other than oneself and one's immediate kin. And children are incapable of higher-order moral reasoning. In other words, easy prey for Factions. - -David http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/innomine.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 14:20:53 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Laurence and the Catholic Church >>>How? Not to many archangels get to roam hell to take a census. Even if a homosexual is *IN* hell, that doesn't mean homosexuality is what got him there. No one gets to go to the higher reaches of heaven, so you can't go see if there is a homosexual in heaven.<<< The Archangels have been watching souls go to Heaven and Hell for thousands of years, they have a pretty good idea what sends them to either place. They may not always see the soul where it winds up, but they can perceive where it's going. They've been managing thousands of Saints, of whom a few are surely homosexual (unless you want to say in *your* world that homosexuals all go to Hell), and they have a much better idea than the Church of what God's criteria are. I think it would be absurd to say that even Archangels don't know whether or not one has to be Christian, heterosexual, or whatever, in order to go to Heaven. And the fact that (presumably) one does not have to be either would tend to preclude Laurence from saying homosexuality is a blasphemy against God, or Dominic from saying that God himself only sanctions Christianity. - -David http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/innomine.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 14:27:29 -0400 (EDT) From: "Nathan K. Edel" Subject: Re: IN> Why I didn't buy Night Music > Hm. SJG is pretty wary of doing adventures for GURPS for just the > reason that people don't buy them. I know that GURPS players are probably > unusually self-reliant, but I don't think *anyone* makes money off of > adventures. I have even been told, though obviously not the the companies > themeslves, that White Wolf and TSR only do adventures to promote their > games, without those adventures being profitable in themselves. If > someone has heard the same thing, or indeed, something different, I'd be > interested in hearing about it. AFAIK TSR did (until they just start hemoraging) make money off adventures; but, for a while now, adventures for TSR have been "plot-line" items as part of supported game worlds, tied in with all their boxed sets, novels, etc. I think SJG's got a cool world with In Nomine, and I'd like to follow it; I'm waiting for Gen Con to pick up Night Music, but right now I expect to keep buying supplements for it as long as the quality and interest value stay good... Then again, I'm not planning to GM In Nomine, just to play it when I can finally find some other players; a lot of GM's who run AD&D hate the TSR model of "actively evolving game world" because they don't like having to keep theirs up to date with it. Personally, I don't think it's necesary for a GM to do so... but the model does give you something interesting to follow along with, and often produces material which is easily adaptable to an unrelated -- or "non-compliant" campaign. Nate ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:50:29 -0800 From: nightgaunt@earthlink.net (Alexander Shearer) Subject: Re: What *would* you buy? (Re: IN> Why I didn't buy Night Music) >Well, considering that Night Music is already published, and the other >books of the Revelations cycle are probably in edit mode right now... > >If SJG pulled out all the stuff and packaged up the Superior >expansions, and the other rules-stuff (humans, non-Marches >stuff from Marches, etc.), would you buy *that*? Would there >be enough people who'd want all their Superior expansions in >one place to make it profitable? I'm not too concerned that all new stuff on Superiors be in one place, myself. Would be cool, but I can jsut as easily live with "here are the Marches, and some Superiors who deal with the Marches." As long as it's not "Here are the Marches, some Superiors related to nothing in particular, and the city of Brawley, CA." > >*I'd* buy it -- especially in hardcover! (I love my hardcover >In Nomine, I just *love* it... It stays open where I want it, >the cover doesn't peel, I can drop it and not worry about >bending the cover...) > >But would enough? Could they stick frills in it that would >make it even more appealing to people who didn't buy the >Revalations cycle, and not annoy the people who did? >(A check-digit summery, for instance, on a photocopiable page...) Hmmm...there seem to be enough people willing to cough up for TSR's repeated hardcovers, so one would imagine that there's a market for it. I'd buy it (hardcovers are nice...). Heck, people buy ArM 4th edition hardcovers for $45 each, so nearly anything seems possible. Alexander Shearer nightgaunt@earthlink.net gaunt@uclink4.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:23:10 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Why I didn't buy Night Music > My basic problem with Night Music is...why is it all together like > it is? Can I expect to have an adventure or setting foisted on me with each > new world element I want to read about? With only the evidence I have seen (i.e. I haven't talked to a SJG editor/author about it), the intention was to give people enough stuff so that with just Night Music and the basic rulebook you can start with a complete setting with a lot of campaign hooks. From that perspective, I think we can slot all the sections of NM into place. The 'Mortal' stuff: details a bunch of character types that got short shrift in the main rulebook (for space reasons) 34 pages Resources: has a few new discords (that are used in the rest of the book) but mostly concentrates on some damaging things that are especially effective against mortals. 6 pages Play setting (Austin). A completely fleshed out area with a complex group of interesting NPCs and a metric buttload of plot hooks. It also showed by counter-example how angels and demons get along. 42 pages Adventure. Integrates all those NPCs and the play setting. 15 pages New and exanded writeups. Some of the new superiors were needed for the NPCs. The expanded writeups were actually less useful for my theory above and arguably don't belong. 23 pages From this point of view the book actually does have a consistent theme that doesn't fall neatly into the mechanics/setting categories. F'r instance, the Marches are going to detail a campaign setting (guess where), NPCs that are important there, the Superiors who have an interest in the Ethereal Realm, probably some rules that will be needed for the rest of the book and an adventure that fits in as well. It's perfectly okay NOT to like this breakdown. Perhaps In Nomine will follow the GURPS route and eventually publish a compilation of 'just the rules' once the Revelation Cycle has completed. (For those of you who don't follow GURPS, SJG published two 'Compendium' books that codified and compiled all the rules, skills, etc that had been piling up over the years in various rulebook into one, convenient package.) I wouldn't _count_ on this... if it happens, it will be quite some time from now. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #278 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.