From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Aug 5 04:51:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA07772 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 04:51:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA28608 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 02:40:14 -0500 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 02:40:14 -0500 Message-Id: <199708050740.CAA28608@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #280 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, August 5 1997 Volume 01 : Number 280 In this digest: IN> Re: Adventure seed: Not my fault! Re: IN> Last Session's Qestions... IN> Relic Weapons Re: IN> Maarath, Familiar Outcast from Fire IN> Why Humans work for Angels IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy IN> Why Lilim are not Playtoys Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy Re: IN> Adventure seed: Not my fault! Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy Re: IN> Why I didn't buy Night Music Re: IN> Last Session's Qestions... Re: IN> Laurence and the Catholic Church ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 19:34:19 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Re: Adventure seed: Not my fault! From: Nana Yaw Ofori > Anyway, it was either this seed or the Jurassic Park-based one, where a Lilim of Vapula with a Geas/6 on an Angel uses it to get her to go to Heaven, visit the Cathedral of Purity, and take a few samples from the Dragon skulls. I hadn't quite decided what Vap would do with cloned Dragons, though.< Lucifer needs one for the apocalyse to take on Micheal. [ie and Micheall and his angels fought the dragon and its angels: Revelatons] On this point though the rule book sort of suggests that either Uriel failed to make a clean sweep of dragons or more have appeared since when it says "you will not be able to create an angel, or a demon, or a dragon, or the President of the United States as a servant to a begining character. That's intentional. If you want more, it's up to you to sing it out of the symphony." [IN p45 opposite the picture of Dominique] I.e You can't start with a dragon for a pet. but you might aquire one later.. [Especially since the other examples are all things there seems no problem other than competition in achieving for a Word bound celestial] Adam Canning Dahak@Compuserve.Com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 16:42:02 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Last Session's Qestions... At 1:30 PM -0300 8/4/97, Andre Ribeiro wrote: > Hi all! You know, sunday night is Game Night and I started >"Feast of Blades" with a Sheddim of Kronos, a Djinn of Vapula and a >Mercurian of Yves. Ooooo! No spoilers, no spoilers... (Halfway through. Kyriotates of Jean are obnoxious. They tie shoelaces together and the pigeon patrol can spot people...) > Yes, they spend most of their time jumping at each others >throats, but that's cool - they are never bored and sometimes I even >pull back the main plot to let them dwell in their own small universe. How *did* they team up...? > But there's some questions they'd aroused: > > * When you buy Discord at creation, how many points do >you get per level? I believe it's 3. Yes, here it is... p. 49. 3 points per level. > * Can you raise your characteristics levels at character >creation? What is the cost of it? If the GM allows it. Try p. 202, last paragraph in the box. If you raise Forces, you do *not* get extra points. > * When their hosts sleep, do the Sheddim go to the >Marches (and: Do they need a Will roll to sleep as the other >Celestials?)?? If yes, in what form do they appear there?? Hrm.... Hrm.... Uh..... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 19:34:16 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Relic Weapons >Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:14:01 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Relic Weapons On Aug 3, 7:07pm, Adam Canning wrote: > Subject: IN> Relic Weapons > What is the point of Nicole's Holy Pistol/1 ? > It does check digit times 1 damage > Revolvers do Checjk digit damage and do not cost a character point per > shot. > > Also Marcus must have been a lot more hurt than he appeared if 1d6 damage > took him down. The _Power_ for the Holy pistol is equal to Resource level multiplied by the check digit. So a HP/1 would do a base of 1d6 (the check digit) + (the check digit) times 1. In other words [1d6]*2 damage. Remember that the Power of a weapon is added to whatever is rolled on the check digit. Still, it seems a bit unlikely since the top damage is 12. I don't put it past the possessor of the body to have deliberately damaged it somehow to make the death easier.... (since he was planning on letting it die anyways). < One for my errata list since the write up explicitly says damage not power is equal to check digit x Level. 1d6 x2 damage kills one of Adam's vessels on a 6 on the dice so thats fine by me. [Corp forces 2 Strength 4 Vessel 2 for the one listed] Adam Canning Dahak@Compuserve.Com No I'm not a Balseraph. Wait a moment if I was a Balseraph I wouldn't admit it to my self any way... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 19:04:58 -0500 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Maarath, Familiar Outcast from Fire > >Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 14:20:49 -0400 >From: David Edelstein >Subject: IN> Maarath, Familiar Outcast from Fire > >Two problems (don'cha just hate that? ;)) > *Much wailing and gnashing of teeth* Hm? Oh, no, It's fine. \|=) >1) A spirit who is no longer performing the service for which it was sent >to Earth gets yanked back to the celestial plane. That would probably >include ceasing to serve your master. > I took the text under the Celestial Spirits heading to mean that Spirits that don't have that don't have a Vessel anchoring them are yanked up to Heaven when their purpose isn't served. I had inferred that a spirit bound to a Vessel was as grounded as an Angel in a Vessel, and wouldn't be automatically drawn up to Heaven when the purpose wasn't being served. Barring that, I suppose Maarath could be a special case of a Diabolical Intervention on that last Dissonance roll. >2) Why *can't* he assume celestial form to check whether he's Fallen? > Took me awhile to find the reference, but here it is. IN p53: "Angels who are Outcast cannot attain their celestial form, and thus cannot ascend to Heaven." Oddly enough, Renegade Demons can attain their Celestial Forms. So If he could attain his Celestial Form, He'd be a Imp/Gremlin for sure. Maybe he's just too scared to check. > >Still, the idea of an Outcast/Fallen spirit is interesting. Wonder if an >imp could be Redeemed? ;) Don't see why not. If my interperetation is wrong, It would be monstly non-familiars who 'd be getting on the right track. "I used to hide keys and steal socks and pens, but Yea, I did see the Light! Hallelujah and stuff!" Of course, then you have shades of the Shedim problem. He still has to keep hiding those articles so he doesn't get pulled back to Hell. Granted, it's nowhere near as bad as those darned Shedim have it. Probably won't be Redeemed by Dominic, but how often does Dominic Redeem celestials anyway? For a really odd idea, how about an Imp with a Word? Extremely short life expectancy, if the Word's at all desirable. Farnsworth, Imp of Gluttony, the Demon of Oatmeal Raisin Cookie Crumbs that Get Stuck in your Braces For Five Days. Probably granted on a Whim of Lucifer, maybe he might manage to live long enough to become a full-fledged Demon. Probably, he'll be offed by a Demon who resents that such a feeble creature would get any Word at all. = http://www.io.com/~beholder ===================== nofori@pop3.utoled.edu === Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Legion, Party of six thousand. Smoking or Non? ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 19:34:12 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Why Humans work for Angels From: Calabim@aol.com >So much time is spent talking about how awful it is being an angels servant and what pesky jerks they are that I wonder at the fact any have servants at all. I'd like to see a little discussion on the list and in printed material about how swell they can be and why I would WANT to risk my life for them. I mean, these servants can't ALL be being blackmailed! < A few possible other reasons, not all totally valid or justifiable but people are like that. [so overlap is inevitable] 1 Powertrip " Hey I get to hang out with supernatural entites who want me to kill people every so often" 2 Boredom " Either I spend my time with really intesting things and shoot rather strange things or I carry on as a Cost Accountant " 3 Its Gods Will " God sent an Angel to tell me to do things, who am I to argue." 4 Family Tradition "My father before me served Mistress Dominique" 5 Insanity " These voices in my head tell me to do things" 6 Personal feelings for the Angel in question. "Isn't he so cute, I know he's not human but does that matter when one is in love." 7 Personnal Intrest " Well it may be dangerous but I've gained some friends with usefull abilities out of it, Sometimes though you just have to bend the truth a little to get them to help out." 8 Curiosity " Well I've seen the holy lance and a dragon and dozens of different demons and angels, How many people can say that." 9 Sense of Duty " Its difficult to work wtih angels but when the chips are down we couldn't effectively fight the demons without thier help.] 10 Sense of Honour " Well I thought the society of Light was just one of these clubs like the mason's but I swore the oath to oppose evil and I'll be damned if I'm going to break my word, figuratively and litterally at that I supose." 11 Pay " Look I do private eye work for this guy so who cares if hes a talking lion with wings and his boss is mmade of solid gold, the pays good and its no worse than process serving on the Militia's." 12 Carried along by force of personality " Well gee I don't know why I do it, just something to do I guess.2 13 Redemmed Soldier of Hell " They helped me get my soul back now I'm going to help kick ass.." 14 Mutual Interest "Yeah I know hes one of Lawrences Malakim, but hes no worse than most of the rookie partners I've had in my time on the beat and he has this nose for criminals." 15 Its Cool " Hey its like Buffy the Vampire slayer, for real!" 16 Slow Illumination " It took three years to discover my partner Special Agent Mulder was a Seraph of Litheroy,but I'm in to far to back out now." 17 Revenge " One of thwm there Cabalim blew up mywife and my children and house and my car, and I'm going to get them all for it and working with Gabbiy and her friends is going to help me do that." 18 Peer Pressure " This strange guy came round back when we was just a street gang , first wee thought he was just a gook till he taught us these shit hard martial arts, now we go round steaming demons rather than little old ladies, its more dangerous but more fun and I'm with my mates so thats all right aint it?" 19 Ignorance "You mean I'm working for an angel, I thought I was working for a normal conspiricy!" 20 Someone elses problem "Look I'm a SEAL, I shoot people for Uncle Sam. I let the Officers worry about who we shoot." 21 Archangel Eli "Woof" Adam Canning Dahak@Compuserve.Com "Humans, you can't understand them and they are barely worth the trouble of eating, still if we ignore them maybe they'll go away" Various Dragons occasions ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 19:34:23 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy >Dominic's not after either of them because of their >sanity To Quote [IN p 115 under Relations] His current main objective is the removal of Eli, who he feels is mad and dangerous. Dominic also looks with a jaundiced eye og Gabriel (also insane, but protected by Yves for some reason). > Michael wasn't nuts, either. No, He was guilty of vainglory.God called the inquest off because of Micheal's utility and Dominic hasn't had a go at him since. Much the same way god asked Uriel upstairs for a small chat about his future and he hasn't been seen since. >>i.e. if you start trying the other archangels for herasy it encourages them >>to prove themselves not guilty and to work together, something that Gabriel >>and Micheal seem to find difficult. >Interesting theory, but with one small problem: Dominic's actions >have alienated those people. So, If he has to make a choice between having them as friends and increasing the chance of losing the war or upsetting them and increasing the chance of winning which as the Archangel of Judgement would you choose? It is noticable that none of the Archangels that havn't been brought up on charges show any signs in their rwriteups of thinking that Dominic is not doing his job properly, Even Janus and Novalis, both of whom Dominic is looking sideways at are not hostile to him. Laurence who is a Malakite and too idealistic to cope with the war properly considers Dominic an ally and seems to have no problem with his behaviour. >Using people as examples in trials isn't what most people >would consider just. Actually the example you set in a trial is part of the necesary parts of true justice, Dominic is making the point that unless God clears you you toe the party line. The problem with American and tBritish justice is that no account is taken of the affect on the rest of society of the some times ludecrous results. Justice is not just for the defendant but also for society. I.e. Justice must be seen to be done as well as done, and the best way to maintain that is ensuring that money and power do not [OJ Simpson, Robert Maxwell for examples] buy a different standard of right and wrong. From this side of the Atlantic it looks as if sufficient money will buy an aquital in the US regardless of the evidence. Leaving Archangels that fall out of line or go mad alone just encourages the lower ranks to think eith one rule for the Archangels and one for us or If they can do it so can we. Neither is appropriate behaviour for a military organisation which is why courts martial have the duty to the efficent running of tghe organisation as well as the iduty to individual justice. >Heresies. Variations of the truth that are wrong. Herasy ; variation in religous doctrine contrary to the accepted and authoratative teachings of the church:- Dictionary of christian Lore. Thus to a Catholic; The Cathars were Heretics, The Zorastrians were Heathens ,The Iconoclasts were Heretics, The Vikings were Hethens, The Arians were Heratics.. >Having a Cherubim bound to you against your will, so that he knows >where you are at all times, is obviously a breach of privacy. No worse than having a heart anyone can touch to know where you are. Cherubs also have that little problem that bending their ideals causes dissonace. It can be said that the Cherubs role on the triad is that of defense rather than pursuit and the abilities that you seem to be objecting to enable the traid to clear the innocent at high speed. The seraph goes are you guilty and then knows if you are so long as you answer.Failing to answer is take as guilt since all an innocent has to do is speak to clear his name. That to me sounds like less of an invasion of privacy than an human court. The guilty of course are guilty. >>>>>Would you want a police department's IA division headed up by >>Torquemada?<<< >> >>I don't agree that Dominic is Torquemada. >Similar viewpoints, similar methods. Torquemadas viewpoint was that anyone put to the question was guilty and that the inquisitions job was to pursuade them to confess for the good of their soul. To do this he would use any means including torture. Dominic holds trials and his minions work on the basis of establishing guilt and then punishing that guilt, not assuming the guilt and working on a confession. They also use noninvasive methods to establish the subjects guilt.i.e the Seraphs resonance. >Consorting with demons was a common capital punishment >during the Inquisition, you'll recall. The main crimes the Spanish Inquisition tried people for wer being protestant, jewish or moslem. The original inquistion was set up in 12329 to fight the Cathar Heresey[ Which in simple terms was The world was created by an evil god,, procreation is a sin and the aim of life is to liberate the soul from the flesh through strict disapline.] The Inquisition is still in existance but has changed its name from the Holy Office to the Congregation of the Doctrine of Faith Dominic refuses to acknowledge that his servitors help hunt down renegade demons. Asmodeus says nothing about it at all. Adam Canning Dahak@Compuserve.Com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 18:54:05 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Why Lilim are not Playtoys Okay, Free Lilim are theoretically free, right? They aren't Servitors of Freedom -- Lilith has no Servitors. Lilith doesn't give a damn about what they do with their time (when they're not under Geas to her, at least). They aren't assigned to go do stuff that promotes the Word of Freedom. So why does Lilith care what happens to her Daughters? She's a Demon Princess, why should she care about anything but herself? Can't be maternal instincts... It's not, necessarily. Thing is, Lilith *does* have Servitors: her daughters. Her Free Daughters owe her 9 favors, of about a week in duration each (or up to 3 years, if combined!). They *are* her Servitors -- they're just on vacation most of the time. If she wants something done, she calls up people who owe her, and her Daughters mostly owe her. They also get her Rites -- and Rites, one presumes, forward the power of the Superior's Word even as they give a little Essence to the one doing it. Sort of a reward mechanism. Every one of her Daughters who uses those *is* forwarding the Word of Freedom. It's just more subtle than, say, a Servitor of Death killing someone. And the description of Lilim says that they're created in Lilith's own image. They want freedom, same as her. They're *programmed* to forward the Word of Freedom in little ways, from day one of their existance! And she doesn't even have to give them orders! Indeed, *can't* give them orders, if she's to remain true to her Word. (Geasa are the price of existance. If a Daughter didn't want to pay the Geasa, she could tell Lilith to take the Forces back. No Such Thing As A Free Lunch, and all that.) So, no matter what everyone *says*, Lilim are Lilith's Servitors in all but name. They just get a lot of free time. And they're not just her Servitors, they're *merchandise* too! She trades their services around, and they're loyal little servants (unlike a Servitor of Vapula on loan to Kronos, say). Now, what Demon Prince lived long enough to tell the tale if they let a bunch of mere demons (or even mere Word-bound, or even other Princes...) push around their Servitors? Lilith's no wimp -- wimp Princes don't last long. Just ask Sloth about it... And if the merchandise is damaged or destroyed, Lilith loses out. Bad, very bad. Weakens her position, takes from her power. Each Lilim who owes Geasa to Lilith is a resource -- sometimes, she doesn't even have to call in a Geas. She just calls them up, and asks, "Would you do me a favor for a few Songs?" It doesn't take much for Lilith to teach a Song, presumably, but a mere Lilim has to get a Superior to do it. She'll have to pay anyway... Might as well bargain with Mom a little. And if a free Daughter needs something, who's she gonna call? Asmodeus? Nope, it's "Hey, Mom, I really need a [relic/Song/ couple of Calabim bodyguards/30 tons of cheese puffs]! Can we make a deal?" (Why do you think *all* Lilim can call her?) So, why *would* Lilith let anyone push around her Servitors freely? Some of the time, she thinks the Lilim should be handling it -- the girl got into a situation, she should be getting herself out of it. No free lunches here! Of course, she can *ask* for help... For a price, Lilith might bestir herself (if she's not otherwise busy). Sometimes she doesn't even know it's happening -- she's not Asmodeus to keep track of everything her Daughters do, when they're not actually serving her. Sometimes she's busy elsewhere, or the politics are such that she can't make any moves. (Harassment of Bright Lilim probably comes under the "it's safe because of politics," 99.9999999% of the time.) Sometimes it's just not important enough to her that one (or fifth) time. But she *can't* just do nothing when things go beyond the pale. One good Example can keep the abuses down to a minimum (sort of like spam -- toast AGIS/Cyberpromo, for instance, and the rest can be dealt with *so* much easier...). Of course, any intervention from Lilith will have a price for the Lilim in question. Even if it doesn't come with a Geas attached, a girl knows that repayment must be made, unless she *wants* to get no help the next time... And in dubious cases, whether or not Lilith intervenes will probably depend heavily on how valuable the Lilim is to *her*! (Mechanic-happy GMs might want to total up the number of Forces of the Lilim, the levels of Geas upon her, and figure out how useful she is...) A Lilim who owes Lilith very little is probably less likely to get any help from Mom. One who owes a *lot* is more valuable. Lilith doesn't like to see her Geasa exploded -- "She had 5 years of Geasa on her, and *you* killed her! Okay, you break the Geasa, you *bought* the Geasa...." A mere demon getting egregious will probably just get splatted and his hide tacked to the front of the Shal-Mari Lilim Sorority or whatever. A Word-bound would probably get a selection of Guidos showing up to explain that "Mom wants ya t' play nice wit' her goils." A Demon Prince... Is trickier. If Lilith wanted to go Kamakazi, she could probably take one out -- pull out all the stops, call in all the Geasa. The most likely result would be that she'd be weakened enough to be an easy target for anyone who wanted to get their own private source of Lilim... (Or vice versa -- the Prince who won would be targeted by others...) The chances of an all out war, especially against one of the Greater Powers of Hell, are slim. But a paranoid Prince wouldn't discount the possibility -- if provoked, people can do strange things. Best not to walk around with Lilim-skin boots, leading a pretty selection of them around in chains and lending them to Shedim as play-toys. At least, don't let Lilith know about it, if you do. And there are things short of all-out war that can be done -- Lilim, by their nature, collect favors from all *sorts* of people. If you care to spend the time and favors, the Daughters (not just the Free ones either, but any who owe Geasa...) are a network of spies and saboteurs. When a Hell-Tether suddenly loses electricity, water, and has graffiti sprayed all over it -- all without disturbance in the Symphony, even -- a Prince might think twice about that Lilim footstool-slave. It's not that Lilith can throw her weight around, so much as she can make displeasing her not worth the effort. Her girls are Hellborn, and perfectly selfish. Does Asmodeus *really* want to have fifty of his best agents scrutinized by the IRS, just to bring down one Free Daughter who's decided to start herding sheep in the wilderness instead of tempting mortals for a while? She's not hurting anyone (this is also the point...), but she's not helping, either. It's not worth the flack until she can be proven to have gone Renegade -- and then, well, she made her own choice and will have to take the consequences... For the most part, a Bound Lilim (one who's pledged herself into the Service of another Prince -- or an Archangel...) has made her choice, and Lilith isn't going to get involved. Sell yourself into slavery, and you get what you asked for, right? If you want out of the relationship, well, you'll have to do what's necessary, right? Maybe you can buy Lilith's help, maybe not... But there are some tricks that Lilith doesn't like, even on the seriously rare Brights (they're merchandise and Servitors too, if they owe her anything). Dissonance-blackmail [such as in Nana's "It's Not My Fault" adventure seed] is one -- it can be used against *any* Lilim, not just, say, a Bright. Let that one go by, and next thing you know, Azzie's people are doing it to any Daughter they just want to harass. Hitting Tempters with conflicting Geasa is another problem that can escalate if not nipped in the bud -- if it's an accident, that's different, but if it's deliberate... Gotta put a stop to Lilim abuse, before everyone starts doing it, testing, pushing, seeing if Lilith's lost power, seeing if she's weak. Seeing what they can get away with. It's in Lilith's best interestes to make sure they know what they can get away with doing to her Daughters and her: Not Much. And that is why Lilith gets involved when people abuse her Daughters, and why Princes don't discount her displeasure. She's not running the place, any more than any of *them* are -- but she's a Princess, and she's got the power to hold that status. Maybe she won't meddle in the affairs of one Lilim, but do you feel lucky? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:26:43 -0700 (PDT) From: "R. Coon" Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy On Mon, 4 Aug 1997, Andrew Getting wrote: > >>>>Just because he's right often doesn't mean that he's usually > >right. His screw-ups have been major, you'll recall.<<< > > > >First, as I've pointed out repeatedly, it's a matter of opinion whether he > >really "screwed up". > > God came down and told him so. > Actully, IIRC, the book explicitly states that Dominic wasn't wrong, rather that God deemed, despite Michael's pride, he was too vital to the War to punish. I really have to wonder, though: why are you (collectively, that is) arguing over Dominic's true nature? This isn't something explicitly stated in the book; it's an interpretation of a rather incomplete history, explaining his problems with certain Archangels. Once more details come out, a better definition could be made, but until then, it's going to be up in the air, and everyone is going to have their interpretation of the information presented. As far as my opinion, I'd say Dominic _has_ to be generally good and competant (sp?) to be the Archangel of Judgement. His suspcion of Gabriel has at least some foundation; it states that she is, on some level, disturbed. I don't think it would be about Islam, however, as I think he'd be more peeved at Khalid for espousing it. His suspicion of Eli is understandable as well; for unknown reasons, Eli just takes off?!? That sort of lack of communication can be a severe detriment to any group, and I would think a being as order-oriented as Dominic would be concerned about it. Oh, well, just my $0.014... (after taxes) Rob Coon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:07:15 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Adventure seed: Not my fault! BTW, that's a lovely evil plot setup, even if I don't necessarily agree with all the mechanics. You have a twisted mind. I like you. At 7:08 PM -0400 8/3/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >> 1) A Geas can't be used to demand something above the level of the Geas. >> The rules don't make it explicit, but I'd say if a Lilim (or anyone else) >> holding a Level 1 Geas on someone tried to invoke it for a Level 6 favor, >> the target doesn't even need to make a Will roll to resist. There's no >> backlash-- the Geas hasn't even been invoked properly. (Or if you're a mean >> GM, you could say it vanishes.) > > You're right and the mechanics section under Lilim pretty >much link the size of the original favor done to the one that can >be redeemed. Though you could get some moderately nasty itty-bitty Geasa, to try the same trick... >> 2) Again, the rules don't make it clear, but I don't think if a Lilim >> trades a Geas she holds on someone to another person, that *she* will take >> dissonance if the subject resists when the Geas is finally invoked by a >> third party. Seems to me if this could happen, Lilim would be a lot less >> likely to trade Geases! (Are you really going to count on Lilith's ire >> saving you?) Are you really going to count on Lilith *not* getting mad? These things happen all the time, but not overtly and not *constantly* -- because nobody quite knows *when* Lilith's going to decide that the line has been crossed. Heck, even Lilith probably doesn't know where the line is, any given day. Fear and Uncertainity, the grand motivations in Hell! But Lilim do prefer not to trade unwisely -- most Geasa-barter is probably the "I'll do a favor" kind of promise, which can't be used against her without her knowing, and can't be resisted. > I thing, though I could be wrong, that only if a _Lilim_ >tries to invoke a Geas (and if it fails) does _that_ Lilim get >any Dissonance. Beth would be the best person to ask about this, >but if a non-Lilim tried to redeem a Geas and failed, there would >be no reprecussions for anyone. What do you think, Elizabeth? If a Need-Geas is invoked and resisted, *somebody* should take dissonance, or else Lilim would swap un-tested Need-Geasa all the time. (*Especially* if the dissonance for a resisted Geas vanished that way!) I think that the dissonance will backlash onto the person who did the invoking, normally, not the person who fulfilled the Need (if it differs). Untested Need-Geasa (the Need was fulfilled, the Geas has not yet been invoked, the Will roll is yet to be made) might not be able to be traded except to those who *can* invoke them. This means Lilim and Superiors, and maybe a Word-Bound or two serving an appropriate Superior. (Marc's, for instance...) This means that Lilim can trade untested favors amongst themselves, and to Princes. And Mom. For that matter, if Mom invokes a traded favor, it's probably going to work as if she'd bound the Geas on the person herself. Maybe Phoebe should do dear Calvin a favor and give it to Mom... ("Ha, ha! You can try to make me do something, but my demonic Will shall foil you!" "Me, maybe. Mother? Here's that Geas on a Balseraph I promised you." "*gluk*" 888( <--bugeyed Balseraph frowny) Suggestion: If an untested Geas *is* traded to a non-Lilim, then the dissonance will go to the last holder of that Geas who *could* have invoked it with resonance -- it's using her resonance without her, sort of... Lemme guess, clear as mud? Hmmm, just give Calvin some kind of unique relic that traces back to Phoebe, taps into her resonance, and channels the dissonance as well... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 16:03:26 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy At 1:27 AM -0500 8/3/97, Andrew Getting wrote: >At 05:52 PM 8/2/97 -0400, in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: >>>>>>Justifiable? No. Justifiable would have been to go after Yves. >>Dominic wanted to kill the messenger.<<< >> >>Like I said before, there was more to it than that (and the bit about Yves >>*does* bother me too, it just doesn't make sense), and besides, we don't >>know Dominic was trying to kill Gabriel or do anything else, other than >>*investigate* just what she was up to. > >"Dominic... declared her heretical and tried to have her exiled > from Heaven." > - In Nomine, page 118 > >He tried to force an Archangel into being Outcast. >Astoundingly bad idea. Worked okay with the Grigori... (Assuming it was Dommie in charge of that one, of course.) [...] >>I'm not overlooking the "Inquisition" part, but the "Divine" part, to me, >>makes it unlikely that Dominic would become as blind to justice as the >>Earthly Inquisition did. An "Inquisition" in itself is not inherently evil. > >I disagree. The triatic method of the Inquisiton involves >the loss of all privacy, dignity, and respect for the accused. Hrm. Not sure about *that* one, entirely. You get a triad showing up on your doorstep. You groan and mentally cross off all the things you were going to do for the next few hours, then answer the questions honestly... If you don't have anything serious, you get a lecture about what minor heresies you've been getting into, and your Archangel gets the report later and chews you out. Then business as usual. Mind, if you've got dissonance, Discord, or a bad habit of mouthing off against authority figures... At least, that's how we've been doing them. They (Seraph, Cherub, and usually an Elohite to make sure nobody's gone Habbalah) show up about every month to check on the NPC Servitors of Creation, nag them about harboring a Renegade, annoy the Renegade with questions trying to figure out why she doesn't want her angel-buddies to Fall, finally get a Truth reading that supports the good guys, and leave with "sucking on a lemon" expressions. Mind you, our Dommie isn't *NICE*. Some of his people may even have a quota-mentality... But they aren't allowed to be spuriously petty. (Hey, Edelstein! We're nearly back on the same side again!) (This happens to me all the time... It comes from being moderate.) [And then there's the horrid notion my GM was teasing me about... That the triad might decide that the Renegade *can't* be telling the truth, and has some way of spoofing their Seraph. So they could order her to hang around their base, until the monthly visit from the Big Boss Himself... Even if *they* might get fooled, surely she'd be unable to deceive the Archangel of Judgment in person! "You really want my character to have a nervous breakdown, don't you?" "Just keeping the idea in mind..."] >>>>>Not the point made. Dominic, it would seem, has an exceptionally >>dim view of non-Catholics/Christians.<<< >> >>Again, you're assuming a great deal. Dominic probably has a dimmer view of >>corrupt Catholic priests than he does of honest atheists. > >Then why did he try to exile Gabriel for Islam but not >Christianity? They already had one "right" religion, they didn't need to muddy the waters with another one? At 7:07 PM -0400 8/3/97, Adam Canning wrote: >>>>>Neither does he need any real justification for it. There's a reason >he's called an Inquisitor - just ask Gabriel.<<<< > >And watch while she indulges in casual automasocistic behaviour while being >rather casual about her problrms with Dominic [ IN p12] Never was quite clear about who was getting that close to fire... Too many pronouns. But yeah. No matter which way you slice it, Gaby's a loon. (But she's a *fun* loon...) At 1:00 AM -0500 8/4/97, Andrew Getting wrote: >Novalis ignores Dominic. Eli either doesn't know about Dominic's >efforts, or doesn't care. Janus is afraid of Dominic. Janus, afraid? Where's this come from? (Page references! Page references! Thou shalt not cite without page references!) [Dissonance conditions for English students...] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 21:22:46 -0700 (PDT) From: nightgaunt@earthlink.net (Alexander Shearer) Subject: Re: IN> Why I didn't buy Night Music >> My basic problem with Night Music is...why is it all together like >> it is? Can I expect to have an adventure or setting foisted on me with each >> new world element I want to read about? > > With only the evidence I have seen (i.e. I haven't talked to >a SJG editor/author about it), the intention was to give people enough >stuff so that with just Night Music and the basic rulebook you can >start with a complete setting with a lot of campaign hooks. From that >perspective, I think we can slot all the sections of NM into place. [Big snip] Aha! That makes some kind of sense. I still disapprove of it, but it makes sense! > It's perfectly okay NOT to like this breakdown. Perhaps >In Nomine will follow the GURPS route and eventually publish a >compilation of 'just the rules' once the Revelation Cycle has >completed. (For those of you who don't follow GURPS, SJG published >two 'Compendium' books that codified and compiled all the rules, >skills, etc that had been piling up over the years in various >rulebook into one, convenient package.) I wouldn't _count_ on this... >if it happens, it will be quite some time from now. Yeah...none too helpful right now...we'll just have to see how The Marches is arranged. Alexander Shearer nightgaunt@earthlink.net gaunt@uclink4.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 00:51:27 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> Last Session's Qestions... Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 1:30 PM -0300 8/4/97, Andre Ribeiro wrote: > > Hi all! You know, sunday night is Game Night and I started > >"Feast of Blades" with a Sheddim of Kronos, a Djinn of Vapula and a > >Mercurian of Yves. > How *did* they team up...? I gotta tell it to someone... :-D The Djinn has a role as a corrupt police officer, who sells guns back to the bad guys. The Mercurian is a lawyer - one of those who stay in police departments and flash their cards to everyone who gets arrested. Thanks to an irony of destiny (i.e., me) they ended up at the same PD. And the Sheddim corrupted a good father and husband into taking drugs, beating his wife and raping his 4-year-old daughter... Well, the neighbors called the police... Guess who arrested the Sheddim? Right! And guess who jumped to defend him? Right again!! So, we started with the Sheddim locked in the Djinn's PD, with the Angel defending him (!!). Of course, things went wild from then on... The Sheddim left his host for him to realize what he had just done and possessed another police officer. As p.o., he got a gun and slipped it to the man's cell - and he killed himself. Kronos couldn't be more pleased... Both the Djinn and the Mercurian were already suspecting of something and perceived the Sheddim when he was between bodies, in celestial form. They don't like each other - but they loathe a Sheddim far more. The Djinn managed to attune himself to him and now they got the Sheddim within sight. Then all officers were summoned to attend a site where a huge accident had just taken place...:-) And the Mercurian went along to watch the Sheddim and to see how he could help... We stopped by then... Now I can begin the adventure. It will be fun, for sure!! Andre ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 00:55:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> Laurence and the Catholic Church > >For that matter, Archangels are in a position to *know* whether homosexuals > >are automatically damned to Hell, aren't they? > > How? Not to many archangels get to roam hell to take a census. Even if a > homosexual is *IN* hell, that doesn't mean homosexuality is what got him > there. No one gets to go to the higher reaches of heaven, so you can't go > see if there is a homosexual in heaven. > Also, it may be hard to recognise a dead homosexual as *being* homosexual. There's not much fun to be had in Hell, so I'm told and somehow I don't see the fun in Heaven being that carnal. I haven't been to church in a while, but I'm *sure* that if there were loads of sex in Heaven, they would have mentioned it - it would be a big selling point. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #280 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.