From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Aug 12 16:46:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA20658 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:46:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA01377 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:11:10 -0500 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:11:10 -0500 Message-Id: <199708121911.OAA01377@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #288 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, August 12 1997 Volume 01 : Number 288 In this digest: Re: IN> The First Family Re: IN> PERCEIVING CELESTIALS Re: IN> In Nomine Re: IN> The First Family Re: IN> In Nomine IN> Motel 666 (#2 of 9 -- collect 'em all!) IN> Dominic is (silly) IN> Heaven & Hell Re: IN> The First Family Re: IN> PERCEIVING CELESTIALS Re: IN> Dominic is (silly) Re: IN> In Nomine Diceless Re: IN> The First Family Re: IN> The First Family IN> Night Music/Austin Re: IN> Dominic is (silly) IN> PERCEIVING CELESTIALS IN> N> Dominic IN> The Austin question Re: IN> Night Music/Austin IN> I want to subscribe ! Re: IN> The First Family Re: IN> The First Family IN> Character points at creation ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 20:00:08 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> The First Family Quick questions. Where did the wives of Caine, and Seth come from? There is an interesting idea in one religion, that Adam and Eve were the partents of the "HEBREW" race, not the entire human race. Also we run into trouble with Noah, and his Brrod as well. Shadowcat All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:04:58 -0100 From: Henry Leirvoll Subject: Re: IN> PERCEIVING CELESTIALS At 21:23 10.08.97 GMT, you wrote: >... >>But no .. I Really have a problem with this .. > >Keep in mind that this is just when they're in Celestial Form. In Corporeal >Form, they're only detectable as special in just a few ways. Yes - but think of a Seneschal (sp?) - protecting a tether. Maybe he chooses to be celestial all the time (which he probably does), and let's also assume that he is a bit powerful (which again - he probably is) - then he Will be very easily detected by even mortals) - -- 0000,0000,ffffH. Leirvoll / kulde@intercom.no ICQ - UIN : 1255494 ffff,0000,0000- ^Heksheim / Black Metal^ - http://www.intercom.no/~kulde ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:18:30 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine At 12:00 AM 8/9/97 +0500, you wrote: >> Demon Princes: Jasper, demon prince of envy, Cassandra, demon princess >> of pride, and Craindre, demon prince of panic. > >Actually, Ayn, Malakite of Dominic, holds the word Pride. > ...but Dominic? I'd figure him a bit too status quo. BTW, any relation? Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 15:45:33 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The First Family Shadowcat wrote: > Quick questions. Where did the wives of Caine, and Seth come from? There > is an interesting idea in one religion, that Adam and Eve were the > partents of the "HEBREW" race, not the entire human race. Also we run > into trouble with Noah, and his Brrod as well. Probably the most orthodox answers are that brothers married sisters. Since Noah's sons brought their wives with them, you only have cousin marriage in that case. There are amusing variations. One, which you mention, is that Adam and Eve founded only the line leading to the Hebrews. This is kinda hard to read out of the texts in Genesis. Another interesting answer, proposed by C. S. Lewis, is that Cain (and possibly some others) married non-humans. Lewis proposed both fay beings and pre-human hominids as candidates. In the case of Cain, some folk have suggested a celestial, various names or none given. Going back to Noah, Madeline L'Engle makes an interesting suggestion in "Many Waters," a sequel to her famous "A Wrinkle in Time" -- she depicts Japheth's wife as a human-celestial hybrid, a la the nephilim or the Children of the Grigori. Since Mrs. Japheth is one of the three re-founding mothers of the human race, the whole species is, on average, 1/6th celestial by blood, on that theory. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:16:14 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine At 02:14 AM 8/10/97 -0500, you wrote: >At 06:13 PM 8/8/97 -0700, in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: >>I have a few Superior ideas for In Nomine. >> >>Archangels: Katrina, archangel of humility, William, archangel of honor, >>and Frederick, archangel of courage. > >Katrina would be interesting, but the latter two would >infringe on the territories of Laurence (big on honor, him), >and Michael. > Yeah, rather than Archangels those last should probably be Word bound angels under Laurance and Michael. >>Demon Princes: Jasper, demon prince of envy, Cassandra, demon princess >>of pride, and Craindre, demon prince of panic. > >Jasper's going to be subsumed into Mammon, Prince of Greed, >and panic would probably belong to Beleth (fear's her priority). >Lucifer himself is likely Pride. > Again, could make interesting Word bound servators. Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 16:37:41 -0500 (CDT) From: Austin George Loomis Subject: IN> Motel 666 (#2 of 9 -- collect 'em all!) [The dribs and drabs of Kobalic advertising continue, with permission from Niels Erickson (palewood@aol.com).] Margali here again for Motel 666, just waiting for all you tired souls. Now, we can't promise you a piping hot breakfast in bed. We can't pro- mise you breakfast. We can't promise you a *bed.* But we can promise you piping hot. All our rooms are sin-trally heated. I'm Margali for Motel 666, and that goat's still out on the lawn. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 16:34:34 -0500 (CDT) From: Martin Leslie Leuschen Subject: IN> Dominic is (silly) Just another wierd tangent to the Dominic Thread... Fact: Dominic was Dominque until a fairly late draft of IN Fact: Dominic always wears a big, concealing cloak Fact: Dominic is really into discipline I figure he's wearing skanky black-leather-with-silver-studs S&M gear under that thing. [Picture it, I *dare* you.] Told ya' it was silly, Martin Leuschen martinl@rice.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 17:59:00 -0400 From: "S. John Ross" Subject: IN> Heaven & Hell ********************************* Well, I've heard from a very reliable source that LA will be detailed in Heaven and Hell. ********************************* Somebody needs a more reliable source . . . To set the record straight, Heaven & Hell will be detailed in Heaven & Hell. Hope that doesn't count as a "spoiler" for anyone . . . ;) L.A. will be detailed in an upcoming book, though. - -Sjohn The Blue Room . . . http://www.cybercity.com/blueroom/blue.htm IT'S NOT JUST A WEBSITE WELL, ACTUALLY IT IS ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:18:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> The First Family On Mon, 11 Aug 1997, Shadowcat wrote: > Quick questions. Where did the wives of Caine, and Seth come from? There > is an interesting idea in one religion, that Adam and Eve were the > partents of the "HEBREW" race, not the entire human race. Also we run > into trouble with Noah, and his Brrod as well. I've always thought that's what the Grigori were for.... Of course, that makes their downfall preordained, but I've always been fond of the "sacred ace in the hole" notion. - -- Casca (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of this robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 22:58:21 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> PERCEIVING CELESTIALS On Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:04:58 -0100, Henry Leirvoll wrote: >>Keep in mind that this is just when they're in Celestial Form. In Corporeal >>Form, they're only detectable as special in just a few ways. > >Yes - but think of a Seneschal (sp?) - protecting a tether. Maybe he chooses to be celestial all the time (which he probably does), and let's also assume that he is a bit powerful (which again - he probably is) - then he Will be very easily detected by even mortals) Being in Celestial form opens you up to Celestial damage and your Soul number is just Will x Celestial Forces, unlike Body which is Strength x (Corporeal Forces + Vessel level). Losing Soul hits permanently takes away a Force, while losing Body hits just kills your vessel, not you. While a Vessel may cost more than a Force, you can always stay Corporeal until you're near Vessel-death, then go Celestial. Celestial form has very few advantages, and they can mostly be gotten by Songs. At a Seneschal's level, he can afford the Songs so he doesn't have to go Celestial. So the Seneschal has little reason to stay Celestial, and some just can't--Kyrios, Shedim, and Seneschals of Blandine and Beleth. The only reason I can see for a Seneschal to stay Celestial is because they're really wimpy Corporeally. That's unlikely for such an advanced character with "...always over a dozen Forces..." (IN). IAC, even if they want to, all Celestials are supposed to keep low profiles--Seneschals holding responsible positions should be doing that--so, Celestial Seneschals would just stay indoors, out of sight of mortals. I suppose mortals might feel something nearby, but without line of sight, they won't see him. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 20:37:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Kim Foster Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is (silly) >I figure he's wearing skanky black-leather-with-silver-studs S&M gear >under that thing. [Picture it, I *dare* you.] > > You're a sick sick man. :) What sick person put an "S" in lisp? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 01:15:46 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Diceless Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Anyone contemplated a diceless version of IN? ('Course, there \ > goes the famous d666.) Well, I didn't wanna talk, but my ideas for a LARP (and diceless) version of IN is almost ready - and I've managed to include the (in)famous 666 and 111. I'll put everything here, as soon as I have it in a readable form... Andre ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 01:20:17 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> The First Family Joshua Knorr wrote: > > I like that Adam is an archmage. My campaign focuses highly on the > >Grigori. One of the powers that the half-breeds have is their ability > to > >manipulate the symphony. This is my version of magic in the game. > My thinking was: humans, be they mages or > mundanes, are an integral part of the Symphony, as opposed to > celestials, > which exist outside it. Whatever a human does, the Symphony wraps > itself > around their actions, whether it involves simply driving to work or > moving a > small mountain. Celestials, on the other hand, have to use brute > force to > change the Symphony from the outside, hence the disturbance. > > With this in mind, mages could be *really* powerful. Don't forget Zeno (or whatever), the Archangel of Paradox and his Paradox Spirits (Angels?)... Andre ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 18:32:00 -0500 From: "Yeager, Alex" Subject: Re: IN> The First Family From: Shadowcat > Where did the wives of Cain and Seth come from? I seem to remember (non-list) discussion that they married their other brothers and sisters (relying on God to sort out the nasty genetics of such an arrangement...) > Also we run into trouble with Noah, and his [Brood] as well. But less so, as they were married before the Flood (per the Biblical account, at least). In fact, seems that one source speculated that the Flood was a racial bottleneck of sorts, with each of Noah's sons perpetuating a line. Anyway, it sure does put the vertical component into the old family tree, huh? Alex Yeager yeagerAW@Maritz.com MIB/FoL/INWO Local 23 (still working on my IN affiliation) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:11:00 -0500 From: "Yeager, Alex" Subject: IN> Night Music/Austin Joshua Knorr writes: > While few people have fallen over themselves to blast SJG for putting > the Austin stuff, I haven't heard all that many people praising it, either. "Damning with faint praise"?... I think this ties very nicely with the thread of those developing their home cities for IN campaigns (because, let's face it, that's what SJG did...) Familiarity with an area is going to provide you with the level of detail necessary to bring a setting to life. Not that they can't be created from the imagination, as any old D&D veteran can tell you, but working in a favorite nightclub, or church, or whatever, can give you depth of detail very easily. This doesn't mean you're tied to your hometown; for instance, I am thinking about a church over in Illinois where I saw my third concert (Big Black, 1985...does that date me?...). It's a great seed, an alternative use of a place of religion, but those in N Y could do the same with St. John the Divine (how they allowed Galas' Plague Mass to be recorded there, I'll never know) or even locally with a certain nightclub in Pontiac, MI. Any of these would alow me to use chunks of Night Music easily without losing the detail that I can describe these settings in. And it can make a campaign that much more timely. My next project will be trying to develop a scenario around the transplanting of a Tether. General Motors is moving their headquarters four miles down the road in Detroit...if the GM HQ was a Tether for Marc (it certainly would be appropriate), how would he go about shifting the Tether.. and what excitement could be caused by those current inhabitants of the Renaissance Center? Say there's a Balseraph selling insurance out of an office, or Lilim with a beauty salon on the shop level, who are given Celestial Eviction notices by a overzealous group of PCs. Marc might go either way with these Lilim, you know - a salon is legitimate commerce, after all, and they do an amazing job on clients, even if there's an unorthodox payment scheme on occasion...of course, would they want to be prevented from assuming Celestial form while at work? (And would some of the traffic have a problem with their little shop? Maybe they can come to some sort of agreement...) Ausin was interesting to read, but I'll never use anything but small bits and pieces (which is not a bad thing, just an "is" thing). As a previous poster noted, there are FAR too many interesting places for Celestials to hang out in Michigan for me to wander elsewhere for now... Alex Yeager yeagerAW@Maritz.com INWO Local 23 (still working on my IN alignment...) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 23:13:19 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is (silly) > Just another wierd tangent to the Dominic Thread... > I figure he's wearing skanky black-leather-with-silver-studs S&M gear > under that thing. [Picture it, I *dare* you.] I have to admit, I find it hard NOT to.. (Except that the image of a six-eyed, winged serpant in a chain-and-leather corset is just a weird picture...) {It's like Tim Curry in _The Three Muskateers_. It was almost impossible to think he WASN'T wearing the same outfit he'd had in RHPS under those cardinal robes... [Well, hey - why do you think they call it "cardinal sin"? ]} ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 05:45:06 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> PERCEIVING CELESTIALS On Sun, 10 Aug 1997 03:29:19 -0100, Henry Leirvoll wrote: >The more powerful a being, the easier it is to see? > >A Demon Prince would be noticed by anyone - even a mortal, at a mere glance! ...< Which as far as the Demon prince is concerned is a good Idea, after all if they are in celestial form they don't want pesky little mortals bothering them. Adam Canning Dahak@Compuserve.Com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 05:44:57 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> N> Dominic Hobbes >For example, Dominic reads Eli's behavior as suspicious - granted. This definitely merits investigation, but does it give him the right to persecute servitors of Eli to delve into his workings? I guess it sorta depends on how you read into "persecute". I know both types of people - those who read him as zealot and those who play him as a hard-nosed cop.< I thought [IN p117] that Dominic cracked down on the servitors of creation because it appeared they were going the same way as the gregori. Some of Eli's Angels work for Dominic these days, so it can hardly be called persecution.Admitedly there are only a few of them [IN p115] but then you wouldn't really expect him to want very many of them. Adam Cannning Dahak@Compuserve.Com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 05:44:51 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> The Austin question From: nightgaunt@earthlink.net (Alexander Shearer) > The basic problem with the reply given above is that it assumes the >players realize what would come of being good kids in the given situation.< Thats paart of my point. The other part is what benefit do Angelic PC get from leaving the situation alone compared with turning in several word bound angels for herasy [They might not get Zara, but Druiel and Tomas are both going to get fried by a Triad of word bound servants of Judgement on their be behaviour] The main problem is even if some of the party wanted to leave the situation alone ther will be at least one Malakim not serving Novalis in hte party who is goijng to start taking the place apart, depending on which of my players it is, either in close combat or by blowing the house that pain built up. >Of course, as written >all the archs are copacetic with it, so then it would turn into some tragic >realization that all the hierarchy seems to be teetering This is night music apparently any statement in it which does not fit the original rule book or any other part of the canon is just being sarcastic and is not meant to be true. Adam Canning Dahak@Compuserve.Com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 09:01:09 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> Night Music/Austin Yeager, Alex wrote: > I think this ties very nicely with the thread of those developing > their > home cities for IN campaigns I agree with that... With Austin we're able to see for the first time how this whole IN setting work in a city - and then turn back to create our own's settings... Ok, many of us had a fairly good idea of the outcome, but it doesn't hurts to get some canon stuff to base your assumptions... Besides, there *are* people out there who just can't come up with a good setting all by themselves! And maybe they don't use it as Austin; maybe they just change the name, but maintain the same scenario, anyway, everybody can profit with NM... Andre ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 15:46:28 +0300 From: Guest Subject: IN> I want to subscribe ! e-mail:strandel@mail.freenet.hut.fi ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 09:16:21 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> The First Family Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Another interesting answer, proposed by C. S. Lewis, is that Cain > (and possibly some others) married non-humans. Lewis proposed both > fay beings and pre-human hominids as candidates. In the case of > Cain, some folk have suggested a celestial, various names or none > given. There's a version where Adam and Eve are not the first humans, but the first Homo Sapiens... In a world already full of Neanderthals. This version says Cain is an offspring of Eve and the son of a Neanderthal tribe chief, who wanted to incorporate that new characteristics (Adam and Eve's) into his own line. And Eve, who had already "married" Adam, was tempted by the idea - and betrayed him. That's the Snake Eve met, if you know what I mean... :-) Anyway, Adam didn't like the story when he knew and ran away with his wife. A short while later, Cain, Eve's bastard, was born. Adam hated him. And then, Abel, the first legitimate son of Adam and Eve, was born. "That *is* my son!", Adam smiled. It's fairly obvious why the two kids didn't get along, isn't it?? Still, the texts say Abel was a naughty spoiled brat and deserved all of it... Andre ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:11:14 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The First Family Shadowcat wrote: > Quick questions. Where did the wives of Caine, and Seth come from? There > is an interesting idea in one religion, that Adam and Eve were the > partents of the "HEBREW" race, not the entire human race. Also we run > into trouble with Noah, and his Brrod as well. Probably the most orthodox answers are that brothers married sisters. Since Noah's sons brought their wives with them, you only have cousin marriage in that case. There are amusing variations. One, which you mention, is that Adam and Eve founded only the line leading to the Hebrews. This is kinda hard to read out of the texts in Genesis. Another interesting answer, proposed by C. S. Lewis, is that Cain (and possibly some others) married non-humans. Lewis proposed both fay beings and pre-human hominids as candidates. In the case of Cain, some folk have suggested a celestial, various names or none given. Going back to Noah, Madeline L'Engle makes an interesting suggestion in "Many Waters," a sequel to her famous "A Wrinkle in Time" -- she depicts Japheth's wife as a human-celestial hybrid, a la the nephilim or the Children of the Grigori. Since Mrs. Japheth is one of the three re-founding mothers of the human race, the whole species is, on average, 1/6th celestial by blood, on that theory. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:05:09 EDT From: "delicious antique whore - succubus@nightly.com" Subject: IN> Character points at creation i'm a complete newbie so PLEASE bear with me. i'm confused about where your character points (cps) go when you create a character.stop me when i mess up. cps = 4 x FORCES ... so if you're a celestial you get 36. each level of vessel costs 3. each level of a skillcosts 1, but you have to buy your way out of the negative defaults. each song costs 1 per level. the attunement you get for free, like Malakim or War, or Elohite of Judgment. but do you have to pay for any more? i'm an ofanim of gabriel, and i've taken that, and now i want Smite, do i get it for free or do i pay 5 for it? or 10? i don't get this part. i was trying to use the example characters to figure out where cps went. the first one, Carin, i came up with 34 cps spent out of 36. and on Ishmael i got 39. what theTartarus am i doing wrong? ANY help would be very appreciated. please please please reply to me in person/private, since i'm not on the list (yet). thanks so much! d.licious antique whore succubus@nightly.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #288 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.