From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Aug 15 16:48:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA31342 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 16:48:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA00454 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 12:53:04 -0500 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 12:53:04 -0500 Message-Id: <199708151753.MAA00454@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #295 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, August 15 1997 Volume 01 : Number 295 In this digest: Re: IN> Words of God and Satan IN> Rhys, Ofanim of Destiny IN> More Suggestions for Word Bound IN> Angels, God's Plan and Communism IN> Mortals who can change Reality Re: IN> Humans, Relic Weapons, and a Lonely Goatherd Re: IN> Words of God and Satan Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? Re: IN> Lilim Geases Re: IN> Fluff (Superiors' Appearance) IN> Corporeal Vessels Re: IN> Immortal Humans Re: IN> Immortal Humans Re: IN> Words of God and Satan Re: IN> Humans and Skills IN> Chains of Command Re: IN> Angels, God's Plan and Communism Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? Re: IN> Mortals who can change Reality Re: IN> Lilim Geases IN> Lucy's Word Re: IN> Ladislas Budnarzik in Night Music Re: IN> Immortal Humans IN> How do you say...? Re: IN> Corporeal Vessels ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 22:39:58 -0400 From: "Joel Mathis" Subject: Re: IN> Words of God and Satan Casca Wrote: > This, of course, leads to the question, "What is God's Word?" The answer > is equally simple and subtle. Genesis 1:1 :"In the beginning was the > Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." God's word is -I > AM-, the state of being which encompasses everything. Before Creation, the > universe simply -wasn't-. Then God appeared and it -was-. Not to kick you or anything as you obviously do know what you are talking about, but you are thinking of John 1:1. Genisis 1:1 is "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth." Its interesting that someone else has thought of this as well, but my thought game-wise is that God is truely eternal. Kind of like what the book mentions about God recreating the universe retroactively so that he was eternal. It would be a moot point then when God was created, as he exists at all times and encompasses all Words. Joel Mathis "I'm not a theologin, but I play one on mailing lists!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 00:21:39 -0400 From: "C. J. Hunter" Subject: IN> Rhys, Ofanim of Destiny - --------------8FD289A6909A28B0BB00D1F2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rhys, Ofanim of Destiny Corporeal: 3 Strength: 5 Agility: 7 Body Hits: 30 Ethereal: 3 Intelligence: 6 Precision: 6 Mind Hits: 18 Celestial: 3 Will: 5 Perception: 7 Soul Hits: 15 Vessel/3: Human--Jamie Reese Role/4 (Status/1): Bicycle Messenger Skills Acrobatics/2, dodge/2, Driving/4: Bicycle, Fast Talk/2, Fighting/1, Area Knowledge/3: Chicago, Knowledge/4: Role (Bike Messenger), Ranged Weapon/1 Songs Songs of Motion: Corporeal/3, Celestial/2 Artifacts Bicycle/6, Lodestone (contains Corporeal Song of Attraction/4) Attunements Ofanim of Destiny, Seraphim of Destiny, Ofanim of Trade, Divine Destiny History In his role as a Bicycle messenger, Rhys gets to carry a lot of important paperwork and packages--usually stuff that's too important to go by unsecured fax or e-mail. When it would interfere with infernal plotting, save someone from their fate or bring someone closer to their destiny, Rhys misroutes a package. "It may not get where you send it, but it'll get where it needs to be..." He cultivates a persona somewhere between Bobcat Goldthwaite and Reverend Jim from "Taxi," and his boss puts up with the occasional missed delivery because no one in town can make deliveries as fast as Jamie Reese. Nor do they work as many hours--Rhys usually puts in a double shift every day, and spends his time off doing errands for celestial clients. It is these celestial errands that have gotten him the attunements and artifacts he has. In return for delivering evidence of an insider trading ring to the police, Marc granted him the attunement of an Ophanim of Trade. Yves is apparently pleased with Rhys, having granted him the Divine Destiny attunement. The Lodestone is a gift from an Elohim of Eli: Rhys usually uses it to keep track of wayward packages. Rhys is not a combat monster. He is more useful as a wandering subplot, or convenient means to drop a McGuffin on the players. He is a little more powerful than a starting character, but it's all in attunements and artifacts he's racked up by doing favors. TO bring him back down to beginning level, just drop the Lodestone, Bike/6, Ofanim of Trade and Divine Destiny. Hope you like! .j. - --------------8FD289A6909A28B0BB00D1F2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rhys, Ofanim of Destiny

Corporeal: 3  Strength: 5 Agility: 7  Body Hits: 30
Ethereal: 3  Intelligence: 6 Precision: 6  Mind Hits: 18
Celestial: 3  Will: 5 Perception: 7  Soul Hits: 15

Vessel/3: Human--Jamie Reese  Role/4 (Status/1): Bicycle Messenger

Skills
Acrobatics/2, dodge/2, Driving/4: Bicycle, Fast Talk/2, Fighting/1, Area Knowledge/3: Chicago, Knowledge/4: Role (Bike Messenger), Ranged Weapon/1

Songs
Songs of Motion: Corporeal/3, Celestial/2

Artifacts
Bicycle/6, Lodestone (contains Corporeal Song of Attraction/4)

Attunements
Ofanim of Destiny, Seraphim of Destiny, Ofanim of Trade, Divine Destiny

History
     In his role as a Bicycle messenger, Rhys gets to carry a lot of important paperwork and packages--usually stuff that's too important to go by unsecured fax or e-mail. When it would interfere with infernal plotting, save someone from their fate or bring someone closer to their destiny, Rhys misroutes a package. "It may not get where you send it, but it'll get where it needs to be..."
    He cultivates a persona somewhere between Bobcat Goldthwaite and Reverend Jim from "Taxi," and his boss puts up with the occasional missed delivery because no one in town can make deliveries as fast as Jamie Reese. Nor do they work as many hours--Rhys usually puts in a double shift every day, and spends his time off doing errands for celestial clients.
    It is these celestial errands that have gotten him the attunements and artifacts he has. In return for delivering evidence of an insider trading ring to the police, Marc granted him the attunement of an Ophanim of Trade. Yves is apparently pleased with Rhys, having granted him the Divine Destiny attunement. The Lodestone is a gift from an Elohim of Eli: Rhys usually uses it to keep track of wayward packages.

Rhys is not a combat monster. He is more useful as a wandering subplot, or convenient means to drop a McGuffin on the players. He is a little more powerful than a starting character, but it's all in attunements and artifacts he's racked up by doing favors. TO bring him back down to beginning level, just drop the Lodestone, Bike/6, Ofanim of Trade and Divine Destiny.

Hope you like!

.j. - --------------8FD289A6909A28B0BB00D1F2-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 18:04:47 +1000 From: peterf@wr.com.au (Peter Frederick) Subject: IN> More Suggestions for Word Bound Hi all Noticed that someone mentioned a few ideas for Word Bound Celestials and couldn't resist throwing my 2 cents worth in. Since I have tried in my campaign to have at least one Word Bound for each AA that a player serves I have a few, though most are just names and Words. Also I have a few other I have mentioned in writing up other Angels or that were ideas that never went far enough to do a complete writeup. Anyone that would like to use, adapt or develop these please go right ahead, I would be interested to see the results. Thanking you for your indulgence Yours Peter. Names + Words Hidehidehidehidehidehidehi, Mercurian of Creation, the Angel of Having a Really Good Time at Parties. Sometimes looks a little like Cab Calloway. Shalmaneser, Malakim of Judgement, the Angel of Torts Beth-haran, Cherub of Fire, the Angel of the Hearth Ozem, Ofanim of War, the Angel of Blitzkrieg Hiddekel, Kyriotate of Trade, the Angel of Haggling Ebronah, Elohim of Stone, the Angel of Bridges Tiberias, Mercurian of Dreams, the Angel of Day Dreams Philologus, Mercurian of Flowers, the Angel of Love Letters Words only The Angel of Sentries, a Cherub of the Sword The Demon of Patriarchy, a Habbalah of Factions The Demon of Religious Intolerance, a Habbalah of Factions The Demon of Red Tape, a Shed of the Game The Demon of Blood Lust, a Djjin of War The Demon of Ideology, a Balseraph of the Game and his sub-servitors of Organised Religion, Academic Orthodoxy, Political Correctness and Economic Rationalism. The Demon of Nightmares of Ex-Lovers, an Impudite of Nightmares Reply to peterf@wr.com.au What does the Lord require of you, but to do justice and to love kindness and to walk humbly with your God ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 18:04:43 +1000 From: peterf@wr.com.au (Peter Frederick) Subject: IN> Angels, God's Plan and Communism Hi all, Been away for a bit while I was changing ISP and such. Looking back I can see that we haven't gotten rid of the threads about whether particular Archangels are Good or not. While I think that is is a worthwhile discussion up to a point, it helps people get a better handle on some of the slipperier Superiors, I have to say that I don't see that this discussion would be necessary if you were an Angel or Demon. It comes down to the perception of God's Plan. If you are an Angel then the Goodness or otherwise of God's Plan is not a matter for discussion. While there is some interpretation of what God's Plan is by his Servants, and the more strenuous it becomes the more authority they have, everyone agrees that there is no alternative. The analogy that occurred to me was that of committed Communists. Forces of Historical Social Evolution produced the Perfect Social Theory of Communism, which was revealed by Marx. All Communists hold that Marx saw clearly the mechanisms of social evolution and made them available for others to enact to produce a perfect society, but those who gained the authority to enact the Plan had different interpretations of it. Thus while Marxists and Leninists don't get on too badly, Stalinists are a bit further out, Maoists are a different breed, and just don't mention Trotsky. The basic Rightness of the original Plan is not questioned, only the policy that is best to bring it about. Similarly an Unknowable Force conceived a Plan for the Universe, which it revealed to several Servants. All Angels agree that God's Plan is Right, and from that agreement they gain a Resonance with that Plan which grows as they gain authority to enact areas of the Plan. Not all those who have been given the authority to enact the Plan agree with each other, Lawrence and Dominic seem pretty close, as do Eli and Novalis, but best not to talk about Uriel. Which is only reasonable, the Plan is very big and to draw closer to one part means moving further away from others, but they all recognise the Authority of the Planner. Those who grow distrustful of the Plan move further away from it and, having no other point of reference, can only move closer to themselves. Their Celestial Nature means that they have some Power in their own right and that Power becomes reinterpreted throught their own view of the Universe, their own Plan. Having been created to help the Planner, they retain their ability to move and modify that which the Plan relates to, but now knowing only their own Selves they start to make their own changes to the Plan. Similarly those who do not trust in Communism go out as individuals to make there own way. Each striving to make his view of the world work well enough so that their personal goals will be met. They continue to have to same personal abilities as they would have if they had remained a Party member, but they forgo the support of their Comrades and must rely on the flimsy "enlightened" self interest of other individuals. Maybe it isn't a strong analogy and it runs out of juice rather rapidly, but it did make one thing clear for me. The Plan has no internal measures of it's ultimate Rightness or Wrongness. It simply IS, and demands that it be followed. You can measure how well you are meeting it's aims, but not the inherent correctness of those aims. There are no external Celestial viewers who can measure the Plan. No Angel can tell you if the Plan is Good, they can only tell you that it is God's Will. Likewise no Demon can tell you that it is Bad, they can only say that it is not their will. The Ethereal Spirits similarly can only say that they are not part of the Plan, although some may be more in favour of what they can understand of it than others. Thanking you for your indulgence, and happy to be back. Yours Peter Scribe for Phasekiel Angel of Heresy, Servitor of Destiny. Reply to peterf@wr.com.au What does the Lord require of you, but to do justice and to love kindness and to walk humbly with your God ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 18:06:45 +1000 From: peterf@wr.com.au (Peter Frederick) Subject: IN> Mortals who can change Reality Dear all Been having a think about this, and without access to a copy of Night Music, here are a bunch of semi-random musings. There are three basic types of Mortals who can make supernatural changes to Reality. All of them gain the ability to do this because they have knowledge of Reality that extends beyond the Mundane. For the sake of definition I would split these Mortals into Soldiers, Bodhisattvas and Wizards. Soldiers - mortals who have been contacted by Divine or Diabolic forces and had the Veil of Mundane Reality lifted away. Generally these Mortals align themselves with one side or the other in the Celestial War, more often than not the side that contacted them Generally the Abilities they gain are as a result of instruction from the Celestial beings that they associate with. Very expereinced Soldiers may be reclassified as Saints or Sinners. Bodhisattva - mortals who have gained a glimpse of the Eternal Reality by their own actions. Most easily recognised amongst Mystics or Ascetics of a Gnostic or Zen background, but coming from any and all backgrounds. They tend to have a very independant view, and focus on individual action to assist those in need. Due to their mostly solitary and self taught nature each individual often has a limited range of Abilities. Occassionally a Bodhisattva may take on disciples and try to help them see past the Veil of Mundane Reality. Sometimes the Enlightened lose their focus on others and slip into the shadows of Self Interest, becoming Enshadowed Bodhisattva, and working to further only the cause of their own selfishnes. In power they range from the level of Soldiers up to Saints and beyond. [nb. Thanks to Rob Wolff for his thoughts on the Bodhisattva, from which I borrow humbly] Wizards - mortals who have grasped by learning or experiment some piece of the truth about Reality Beyond the Mundane that is close enough to being correct that it allows them to manipulate Reality in a way similar to Celestial Powers. Unlike the other two types, a Wizards understanding of Reality is only approximate, therefore their effects are generally not as predictable. Also as the Wizards understanding relies on facts and rules rather than knowledge and real understanding it is more easily transmitted to others. Therefore Wizards have a Model of Reality Beyond the Mundane that allows them to explain, predict and influence events. This Model varies from Wizard to Wizard, but because ancient Wizards recorded their Models and these were studied by Wizards following them, many Models share similar features. Also a Model must be reasonably close to Reality to have any power, adding other general features to Magickal Models. Thanking you for your indulgence Yours Peter. Reply to peterf@wr.com.au What does the Lord require of you, but to do justice and to love kindness and to walk humbly with your God ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 07:55:56 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Humans, Relic Weapons, and a Lonely Goatherd On Thu, 14 Aug 1997 01:34:13 -0600 (MDT), Kingsley Lintz wrote: > Anyway, I'd just add it to Mazur(?)'s note - IF the player can >actually come up with a reasonable explanation for this, I don't see any >reason not to allow it...("Well, my Servitor of Marc here works for a >major corporation, so of COURSE the least competant is at the top of the >hierarchy." [GM nods sagely. "I see...and then comes the dog, and then >the humans..") Dogbert?? :) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 01:51:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Words of God and Satan On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Joel Mathis wrote: > Not to kick you or anything as you obviously do know what you are talking > about, but you are thinking of John 1:1. Genisis 1:1 is "In the beginning > God created the Heavens and the earth." Ack! Correction obviously needed and duly noted. This just goes to show that I need to know my Bible better... > Its interesting that someone else has thought of this as well, but my > thought game-wise is that God is truely eternal. I gave the impression I was saying that God -wasn't- eternal? Certainly wasn't my intention. Let me try again: God is the embodiment of the concept "To Be" and all that entails. This includes all tenses of the word, stretching towards infinity in both directions (infinitely into the past and infinitely into the future). Thus, God has always Been and always Will Be, even when the univers -isn't-. So God is the universe, but also beyond the universe. And that concept makes my brain hurt, so I'll stop there. ;) > Kind of like what the > book mentions about God recreating the universe retroactively so that he > was eternal. It would be a moot point then when God was created, as he > exists at all times and encompasses all Words. Isn't that what I said? If not, I apologize for not being clear, for that is what I meant... - -- Casca (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 07:55:37 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? On Wed, 13 Aug 1997 13:38:46, Jeff Miller wrote: >Night Music seems to contradict previous rulings as to how many body hits a >Kyrio or Shedim has when it is in a host. > >One previous answer was that the host's vessel level equaled its Corp >Forces. Night Music however states that all mortals have a Vessel level = 0. Well, all that don't buy Toughness. >Does this carry to Hosts as well or does the Kyrio or the Shedim do >something temporary to the Host? I would think so, so the NM interpretation will be a degradation in host Body. I hear from a reliable source that the FAQ or Errata will soon address this: FAQ: >It seems that even an 'average' human can take a lot of hits. > > The rules for calculating a mortal's hits has been changed. The new formula is > [Corporeal Forces + Toughness] times Strength. Toughness is a new attribute > only purchaseable by mortals that costs four points per level up to two level. > (Night Music, p. 31) > Because a human no longer has a 'level' for determining when they die (In > Nomine, p. 62), treat their level as one for that formula (i.e. a human dies > when they take enough Body Hits to bring them to negative Strength). Question, though: Does Toughness change the death point? As expensive as it is, it seems like it should. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 07:55:53 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Geases On Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:02:19 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >>What I'm suggesting is that the Geas would be there, tying the Geasee to >>the non-Lilim Geas-holder. If the Geas-task is asked for and performed, the >>Geas poofs. Until then the Geas-holder has the Geas (and can track the >>Geasee?) and the Geasee has that embarrassing Discord. It's just that the >>Geas-holder doesn't have the Lilim resonance to enforce the Geas on an >>unwilling victim. The advantage I see in this is allowing Geases to be >>traded to anyone without either escaping the Dissonance or imposing a Lilim >>Dissonance condition on non-Lilims. > >Except, if a Geas can't be enforced, it's not a *Geas* anymore. It's >a tracker, and perhaps an inclination of goodwill to the asker, but >it's not a *Geas*. (If a disad isn't a disad, it's not worth points.) >If the will-reduction still works, then it's a silent tracker/Song-of- >Charm/reason-to-get-a-favor combination. But it's not a *Geas*. >Which makes it kind of... messy. But it *can* be enforced, just not by the current owner. If a fingerless person buys a gun, isn't it still a gun? A Geas is gun that shoots a specific person. Just because it's currently owned by someone who can't fire it, doesn't mean it's not still a Geas and a disadvantage to the Geased character. The Geased character is still on the hook; he still has discord; and if he doesn't accommodate the current owner, then he may not get such a good deal next time. Think about K.K. Ok, she has a Geas on that hulking Malak; but even though she's a Lilim, *she* can't enforce it, because the Malak will soul-kill her if she tries. That doesn't make it not a Geas. If K.K. trades it to an equally hulking Calab, at least he'll walk away from the attempt to use it. The Malak knows if he doesn't buy off the Geas somehow, it could get traded to Lilith, who I expect can enforce a Geas on anyone short of an Archangel or Demon Prince. You're almost taking the position that a Geas isn't a Geas unless it's forcibly invoked. I think, at least among celestials, negotiating the Geas away is more likely than forcible invocation--both sides risk dissonance if it comes to force. Once you're negotiating, whether a Geas is negotiated away by a Lilim or not doesn't really matter: an agreed task is done and the Geas poofs. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 15:41:01 +0300 (EET DST) From: Tapio Erola Subject: Re: IN> Fluff (Superiors' Appearance) (Snipped) > ("Uh, boss, can't we *both* leave? Please?" And then there's the > "if Eli's in town" setup. [The cab drives up, the scruffy-ish > fellow hops out. "Hey, I was in the area and heard you wanted > me to drop by. Let's talk about it over lunch. Where's the best > pizza around here?"]) Well, given the nature of this archangel, I'd presume that the pizza joint in question would be some small, out of the way, cheap joint run by italian emigree which products are excellent and made by real artist. He'd _never_ frequent in places like McDonalds which products are always the same. Those places are ran by Marc at best, Haagenti at worst. - -- Tapio Erola txr@paju.oulu.fi (No mail to txr@sliver.oulu.fi please) Matrimony is not a word. It's a sentence. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:00:43 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Corporeal Vessels From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" > On the other hand it only takes one point to get a vessel (Human/1, low charisma/1). < The minimum cost is Three points for a vessel. The statement on negative charisma says that if a body with negative charisma is a vessel the points may only be spent to Improve the vessels level or role. Until you have the first level you can't improve it, {IN p49 Third Paragraph] So New Vessels cost aminimum of 3, still not very expensive and a worthwhile investment. Unless you KK in which case they are expendable resources.... Adam Canning Dahak@Compuserve.Com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 08:41:41 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Immortal Humans > As a further comment, any human attempting this is going to make > Noise with each performance, increasing the chances of a passing > demon (or militant angel) to appear and kill them through violence. > Also, since Laurence keeps track of the Soldiers on Earth, after the > first 200 years or so, he would probably appear to them and say > "Well done, you have served God in the best way possible, it's time > to ascend for your reward" and kill the still-youthful-looking > human quickly and painlessly for their eternal award *he he he*. Well... I don't think Laurence is _that_ petty. A good Soldier is a good soldier, right? Demons, on the other hand, are very leery about their servants getting too tough. And don't forget Sorcerers that owe alleigence to either side! They _looooove_ spells (errr.... Songs) likes this one! - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 15:53:10 +0300 (EET DST) From: Tapio Erola Subject: Re: IN> Immortal Humans > As a further comment, any human attempting this is going to make > Noise with each performance, increasing the chances of a passing > demon (or militant angel) to appear and kill them through violence. > Also, since Laurence keeps track of the Soldiers on Earth, after the > first 200 years or so, he would probably appear to them and say > "Well done, you have served God in the best way possible, it's time > to ascend for your reward" and kill the still-youthful-looking > human quickly and painlessly for their eternal award *he he he*. Nnaah. Probably there would be no need to kill the poor human, just take him 'upstairs'. What's one more or less disappearance around and besides it keeps things quiet. (AA probably could do it but killing someone and keeping it silent would be bothersome.) Tapio ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:13:30 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Words of God and Satan Casca wrote: > So God is the universe, but also beyond the universe. And that concept > makes my brain hurt, so I'll stop there. ;) This concept is technically called "panentheism" and is a little different from "pantheism." In pantheism, God = universe, but in panentheism, God contains the universe as a proper subset. In standard theology, God is said to have "necessary existence," or in Latin "aseity," meaning that God's nonexistence is as impossible a proposition as 1+1=3. If God has a Word at all, "To Be" would be it, I agree. As for Lucifer, "Light" and "Free Will" are both plausible, but how about this? -- Before the Fall, his Word *was* Light, but when he fell, he lost his old Word. His new Word is "Me." He is the embodiment of selfishness, pride, and arrogance. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 08:30:01 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Humans and Skills On Aug 14, 4:47pm, Walter Milliken wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Humans and Skills > [johnk:] > > For most normal actions, the GM shouldn't have to > >roll dice at all. So, if someone is staying at an adequate > >hospital with a reasonably competent doctor under no > >unusual time constraint, the skill works automatically. > > Under stress situations (all combat qualifies as > >a stress situation!) rolls have to be made as given in > >the book. > > Is this canon? Let's put it this way: I'm treating it as canon unless one of the uberSuperiors overrules me! Fortunately, I am completely without ego and don't mind reversing myself when I come across an immovable object (or, frankly, an irresistable force). There's a vocal minority that thinks only humans should be allowed to use this rule, but I regard this as a bit counter-productive. In Nomine, IMO, should be fast-paced and only involve dice when strictly necessary. Rolling for every niggling detail ("Roll vs. Computer Operation at -4 for default to turn on the computer!") strikes me as absurd. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:00:55 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Chains of Command From: Martin Leslie Leuschen >OTOH, it *does* bring up the chain of command thing, which is interesting. It seems reasonable that an angel of War might want a General as a Servant, or a Demon of Faction might want a Senator. Should there be an extra cost for someone with these kind of resources? Surely a servant with Staus/6 (Socialite), is worth less than one with Status/6 (President of USA), or Status/6 (Director of CIA), even if they're the same force level.< The President like, Dragons demons and Angels is more expensive than the average staus 6 socialite since due to the large number of points of minions he has he is a greater Class than 6 and so the cost goes up. The rules also say you have to roleplay aquiring such a servant. [IN p45] Adam Canning Dahal@Compuserve.Com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 08:49:08 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Angels, God's Plan and Communism [analogy between God's plan and communism snipped] Interesting! You can even look at it the other way. Communism is basically faith since, despite decades of contrary evidence, people still believe in it. ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:00:19 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? > > Because a human no longer has a 'level' for determining when they die (In > > Nomine, p. 62), treat their level as one for that formula (i.e. a human dies > > when they take enough Body Hits to bring them to negative Strength). > > Question, though: Does Toughness change the death point? As expensive as it > is, it seems like it should. Good point. I thought long and hard about this and I'm _still_ undecided. It helps on the high end (the point where the human is still conscious) so, in a manner of speaking, the death point is further away in absolute damage terms. Adding Toughness to Strength to determine the point seemed a little weak, but having a formula similar to [Toughness level + 1] times Strength has the possibility of being ridiculous. Without too much fiddling, you could have a soldier that can take enough damage _while unconscious_ to kill 5 normal people! Okay, let's add Toughness to Strength for determining the death point and see if that generates any problems. You're right about the expense, though. I was pulling for 3 points/level myself.... c'est la vie. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 08:52:04 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Mortals who can change Reality > Bodhisattva - mortals who have gained a glimpse of the Eternal Reality by > their own actions. Most easily recognised amongst Mystics or Ascetics of a > Gnostic or Zen background, but coming from any and all backgrounds. Bodhisattva is a game concept already. They are the human souls of people who have died, but have chosen not to go to their deserved reward in order to help their fellow humans. The ones that return to earth are called Saints. (NM p.14) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 08:39:25 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Geases > > Hmmmm... this closes off a _lot_ of good plot lines. > >Anything from Aladdin's lamp, to an enemy getting hold of some > >Geases. Or are we talking about 'testing' the Geas in order > >to generate a roll and then letting the person it is traded > >to ask for the specific favor? > > Bingo. A *tested* Geas can go anywhere. If you can get someone > to agree to "an unspecified favor, anytime in the future, by > me or one of my agents..." Well, more fool the mortal. > > If the Will roll has been attempted and failed on such an > open-ended promise, then the Geas is tradeable to anyone. > It's only prior to that test that non-Lilim don't get to play > with Geasa. To balance out things for the poor victim, maybe we should introduce a new mechanic: a flat bonus vs. these open-ended Geases. This gives the Lilim a decision of whether to test such things immediately or wait and get the full roll. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 10:08:09 -0500 From: rbeall@fdldotnet.com (Grim88) Subject: IN> Lucy's Word >Lucifer's Word is Free Will. The ability to choose between Good and Evil Actually, its been stated that his Word was Light. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 10:21:26 -0400 From: Hunter Johnson Subject: Re: IN> Ladislas Budnarzik in Night Music On Thu, 14 Aug 97 13:06 EDT, Walter Milliken said: >>>Isn't this character illegal? Mortals are supposed to have 2 >>>corporeal forces. >> >>Sorry if I missed the resolution of this. >> >>As far as I can tell, mortals don't need 2 Corporeal Forces, but >>Soldiers do. I couldn't find at a glance any absolute indication that >>Ladislas is a Soldier. >Isn't the whole section specifically on Soldiers? And wasn't the >character supposed to be working with angels? (I don't have the book >here to check.... This is the physicist, isn't it?) Casually, I don't see any indication of occupation. But, yes, you're right, the entire section is on Soldiers. Good point. Missed that forest for the trees. >In any case, I can see no logic to requiring Soldiers to have 2 >Corporeal Forces, except if their superior is planning to use them >mostly for combat, and it's stated that not all Soldiers are >combat-oriented. On Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:32:21 -0400, "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" said: > I can think of two reasons off the top of my head >(I'm not sure if these are _the_ reasons or not...). >One, Soldiers with two Corporeal forces are sturdier >than those with just one on the average. Significantly >sturdier! Even if they don't get into combat on a regular >basis, you don't want one dying from a fall down a flight >of stairs. Two, Soldiers can only use Corporeal Songs. >Having a two in CorpForces isn't much of a boost, but it's >useful. > On the other hand, Soldiers that are recruited >with six forces, rather than made, might have only one >in CorpForces. This is totally a GM's call, however. >The individuals that have six forces without celestial >help are very rare. I don't think Walter was saying that is wasn't useful, just that is wasn't a justifiable *requirement*. I'm inclined to agree. Regardless, what I really need to know, errata-wise is: Should Ladislas have Corporeal Forces - 2 (and other changes to compensate)? Or should he be tagged as not really a Soldier (since all Soldiers have to have CF-2)? Or should the CF-2 requirement be dropped from Soldiers? Thanks, Hunter - -- J. Hunter Johnson /\ SJG Errata Coordinator (sjg-errata@io.com) http://www.io.com/~jhunterj/ /()\ Knightmare Chess Development Coordinator jhunterj@io.com /____\ GM in search of a group in Dayton, OH! 1870 AoR CE DH Guer GURPS Hack HotW Ill INWO KC DiF SamS Catan SqL UpF etc. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 10:59:40 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Immortal Humans Tapio Erola wrote: > Nnaah. Probably there would be no need to kill the poor human, just > take him 'upstairs'. Taking a human "upstairs" is technically called "translation." It means going to Heaven in your corporeal body. It apparently happened to the prophet Elijah. It's widely believed to have happened to Enoch shortly before the Flood, and Catholics hold that it happened to the Virgin Mary. This is called the "Assumption." I'm not sure, but Moses may be supposed to have been translated, too, after being resurrected. Mohammed is said to have been translated and then returned, though I don't think they use the term "translation" for it. A few people are also supposed to have been translated the other way, most of them black magicians. Many Christians expect a mass translation of the faithful around the time of Armageddon. This is called the "Rapture." Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 18:31:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: IN> How do you say...? @ This question came to mind the other night when Sean and I were talking and discovered that we each pronounced Belial a different way. Has anyone come up with a pronounciation guide for the superiors? Shadowcat All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 10:47:31 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Corporeal Vessels On Aug 15, 9:00am, Adam Canning wrote: > Subject: IN> Corporeal Vessels > From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" > > On the other hand it only takes > one point to get a vessel (Human/1, low charisma/1). < > > The minimum cost is Three points for a vessel. The statement on negative > charisma says that if a body with negative charisma is a vessel the points > may only be spent to Improve the vessels level or role. Until you have the > first level you can't improve it, {IN p49 Third Paragraph] Good point, I missed that. I allow such things in my campaign for characters that really, really need to get back to earth. ;) Then again, I'm not adverse to giving a character Discord to pay for a vessel until they earn their Superior's good favor again. ("Well, the only Vessel I have in stock is the blind, three-legged dog... OR you can have the human with bad breath, wall-eyes and that darn flatulence problem") }=) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #295 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.