From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Aug 21 19:41:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA11185 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 19:41:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA12700 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 15:38:33 -0500 Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 15:38:33 -0500 Message-Id: <199708212038.PAA12700@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #304 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, August 21 1997 Volume 01 : Number 304 In this digest: Re: IN> Lilim Geases Re: IN> Lilim Geases IN> Shedim and Night Music Re: IN> Lilim Geases Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? Re: IN> Yves pushing adult videos? (was: Fluff) Re: IN> Zeal! Zeal! Re: IN> What happened to the Light (was Lucy's Word) Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #303 -Reply IN> By the way... IN> Pronounciations Re: IN> Chistopher Attunements IN> Lilim Geases IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #302 -Reply IN> Death and Spare Bodies IN> Lilim Geases From: IN> A silly Ofanim of Jean Trick Re: Remnants (Re: IN> A silly Ofanim of Jean Trick) Re: IN> Lilim Geases Re: IN> Corporeal Vessels Re: IN> Lilim Geases Re: IN> Religious Patrons Re: IN> Lilim Geases IN> [FLUFF] Diabolical Dealings at Gen Con IN> Asmodeus's Humanity IN> Word Bound Celestials ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 19:14:19 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Geases On Wed, 20 Aug 1997, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: [Sumary Snipped] > > > *** Frankly, I'm beginning to think that the target should make the *** > > *** Will roll *when the Need is fulfilled*, & if he fails it, then *** > > *** the Lilim gets her Geas (tradeable, visible as Discord), and *** > > *** if he makes the Will roll, she gets the dissonance. Get rid *** > > *** of all this dratted nonsense about tested vs. untested. :-p *** > > This is an intriguing idea... I would say that the next time > the Lilim meets the victim after the Need is fulfilled, they can > try to make the Geas or lose the opportunity forever. This gives the Lilim > a chance to 'pass up' a juicy possible Geas if they find out exactly > how strong-willed their target is. Heck, you can still try to use > Psychology to guilt them into doing their side of the bargain! > I view the proximity as necessary since it _is_ an imposition > of Will and needs to occur like any resonance that affects Will. > Makes for better Roleplaying, as well. Witness the following example: > > (Will roll as soon as Need is fulfilled) > The Lilim slid up behind the woman in the parking lot > and non-chalantly thrust a sword through her torso. When the > dying mortal slid off the blade, her body rolled over revealing > a look of uncomprehending shock. > "Sorry, sister, but business is business, y'know?" > [Make will roll for cheating husband a thousand miles > away. Either the Geas is established of the Lilim takes some > Dissonance from out of the blue.] > > (Using regular Resonance rules) > Moving quickly to avoid the hounds that would come > baying after the source of the disturbance, the Lilim drove > away. She picked up a cellular phone and called an unlisted > number. > A man picked up the phone. He sounded distracted, > nervous. "Yes?" > "It's done." [Make will roll here.] > (Successful will roll) She doubled over with pain as > the man resisted the Geas. > "Who is this? What's done? Don't bother calling, > this number is being cancelled!" The sound of the slamming > receiver signaled the termination of the call. > Scowling, she drove determinedly into the night. > She would settle the score with this guy... in person. > > (Unsuccessful will roll) She smiled as she felt > the shackles being formed. > "Who is this? What's done? Don't bother calling, > this number is being cancelled!" The sound of the slamming > receiver signaled the termination of the call. > Her merry laugh filled the cab of the car as > threw her own phone onto the passenger seat. He could deny > it all he liked, she _owned_ a little piece of his soul. I like this way of doing it, it seems a lot cleaner, and you know that you have the Geas. Shadowcat ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 11:02:50 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Geases > >the Lilim Geasa are the ONLY Resonance that flat out can't be imitated, if > Ah, but if you mean by *mundane* means, Lilim are just as duplicable: Well, I got a little too focused on mundane means; better comparisons would be Kyrio/Shedim to the Song of Possession, Cherub/Djinn to the Song of Attraction, Ofanim to the Song of Motion, Calabim to the Song of Entropy. Though, I have to take back that comment in my quote; no one but Impudites can steal Essence, which is a pretty big one. My major problem with Geasa being STRICTLY a Lilim-only thing (only they can do them, only they can invoke them, etc.) is that mythology is just chock full of non-Lilim inducing and invoking them. There are whole secret societies based on Omerta rituals, which is basically a form of Geas. So I think Lilim should be the undisputed best, but I don't like them as the only possible. > > That might be of some interest, but that was also harder to > >get, and Andre MIGHT have some curiosity as to just what Need you > >fulfilled. > Hey, these are Servitors of Creation we're talking about here! Look > at their Rites... ("Well, she needed some Essence, y'see...") "Ohhh," Andre murmers, thoughtfully, steepling his fingers and lounging back on the bed. "So THAT's where she got the Essence to fend off those Calabim I finally talked Baal into sending, after spending more than a month arranging for her to not have any. Baal's rather upset, darling...since you're responsible, I think you can assuage his anger." *I* think it's risky, even with Servitors of Creation... ('Course, then he raises an eyebrow, leaning forward. "So..how was she?") > >live," not "Don't make a mess in Bloomingdales." I'm willing to bet a > >fair number of them will off your servant right there, as soon as he opens > >his mouth and says, "Hey, you owe me this fav--" > It does tend to trash the Role you've got, though. And, Yeah, but it trashes a servant of evil MORE... > >something that open-ended. That's what an UNTESTED Geas is - "I or my > >agent will contact you to request a favor, which you will then do." > Unfortunately, not. There are two kinds > of Geas -- the kind that Lilim can self-Geas themselves to do, > and the kind that they get on other people. On the first, there's Right, but none of that changes. Either you INVOKE an "I or my agent et cetera" right away, they make their Will roll, and you have a free and clear tested Geas which isn't what Geasa are traditionally all about, or you have your "I or my agent et cetera" in your rolodex until you call them up and give them a specific service, at which point they make their roll. Self-Geases (which anybody can do, at least when summoning Lilith, of course) are also traditionally non-resistable, but they're a separate concept entirely; it's equivalent to rolling dodges while you try to shave. When someone ELSE swings a sharp razory thing at you, you duck; when you're doing it yourself, you don't. When someone else is trying to pull on little hooks in your soul, you resist; when you put them there yourself, you don't, though since we're now talking hooks in the soul, it bumps up to can't. > *** Will roll *when the Need is fulfilled*, & if he fails it, then *** > *** the Lilim gets her Geas (tradeable, visible as Discord), and *** I still have to say I'm very much against any idea that leaves a NON-SPECIFIED (tested or otherwise) Geas as visible Discord on the subject. Primarily due to what a Geas is, but also for that easy Malakim kill. (See him, get a few low-level Needs, and start fulfilling them on the other side of the planet until he misses a Will roll...then just forget about him. Granted, it could make an interesting adventure hook for a PC Malakim to have to somehow hunt down this Lilim and MAKE her give him a task..."Say `pretty please', and maybe I'll let you do something for me." But I may be getting back to those corsets, so I'll just leave that train where it is...) > True, though I don't think I'd mind that -- they still have to risk > getting dissonance with a "pre-test." And, as you say below... I'm afraid I've got to stand with David's comment that knowing WHEN you're getting the dissonance is a more abuseable advantage than being able to dodge it completely as long as other people help out. You might as WELL not get any at that point, and you still get to use the Geas yourself...unless you want to come up with some justification why they can only test Geasa during play-time, for some reason, and not between sessions. > > I'll grant, that makes sense, at least...but I still think it's > >boring. (It's okay, I'd actually let you have a doughnut anyway.) > What about burning part of a Geas to "test" it ahead of time? Get I can only see it in the sense that invoking a broader task counts as a higher-Level Geas in any case. (eg. "Come shopping with me" is probably a Level/1; "Come spend an hour with me sometime when I come get you" leaves them not knowing what you might interrupt and leaves them hanging around rather than getting it out of the way now, so just taking them shopping when you invoked it before being sure when requires at least a Level/2...) So, beyond still capping WHAT you can ask, I can somewhat see it if such an Invoked Geas STILL gets caught by the time limits; eg. you test a Level/6 Geas on someone, ordering them to just do whatever you ask someday - the broadness of it counts for some of the Level, so you can only ask them to do something up to a Level/4 or 5, and if you haven't asked them within a few months, you've lost it. I would also say that invoked Geasa, being `harder', can't be combined, at least directly. (They could be done in sequence, I suppose, but a bunch of Level/1 Geasa really don't actually add up to a single Level/6 in terms of time or depth..) > Hey, it's what the Lilim themselves are walking around with, > and what they trade with people! Why is it any less fair to > let them take the risk ahead of time and get that blank check? Because it's what Lilim *DO*, and they get a lot more say in what they get in exchange for those. Besides - if someone knowingly, actively ACCEPTS the Geas ahead of time, I'd be well inclined to say it's self-inflicted and they don't get a Will roll...that's traditional, too, and even allows for some trickery. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 14:25:34 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Shedim and Night Music Main book, it's pretty clear that Shedim can only possess humans, right? Night Music, Billy Bob Buford wants a Shedite to possess his drug/explosive-sniffing dogs, to tell which is which... Three-B getting Shedim mixed up with Kyrios, from previous experience? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 13:55:58 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Geases >> *** Frankly, I'm beginning to think that the target should make the *** >> *** Will roll *when the Need is fulfilled*, & if he fails it, then *** >> *** the Lilim gets her Geas (tradeable, visible as Discord), and *** >> *** if he makes the Will roll, she gets the dissonance. Get rid *** >> *** of all this dratted nonsense about tested vs. untested. :-p *** > > This is an intriguing idea... I would say that the next time >the Lilim meets the victim after the Need is fulfilled, they can >try to make the Geas or lose the opportunity forever. This gives the Lilim >a chance to 'pass up' a juicy possible Geas if they find out exactly >how strong-willed their target is. Heck, you can still try to use >Psychology to guilt them into doing their side of the bargain! > I view the proximity as necessary since it _is_ an imposition >of Will and needs to occur like any resonance that affects Will. >Makes for better Roleplaying, as well. Witness the following example: > I don't like this since the nature of the geas can influence whether or how strongly someone resists. On a kill your mother/wife/daughter geas, the target (even a mortal) is going to blow as much essence as possible to avoid doing it. You then give the Lilim free reign to ask whatever she wants if the target fails to resist the roll. Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 11:59:11 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? At 01:15 PM 8/19/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Kyrio Strength * (Kyrio Corp Forces + host's Toughness) > >which is the same formula as the one presented in NM. > OK, so how many people have Toughness and does a Kyrio/Shedite know if someone has it; before posession, after possession? Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 20:29:18 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? On Tue, 19 Aug 1997 13:15:03 -0400 (EDT), Thomas Davidson wrote: >Hold on... [Jeopardy theme playing]... > >I'm back! I would say (as a GM ruling) that your third formula is >correct: > >Kyrio Strength * (Kyrio Corp Forces + host's Toughness) > >which is the same formula as the one presented in NM. > >But that would be my ruling, and Mr. Karakash might have a different idea. He has the same idea, but the AAs and DPs may rule differently. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 16:07:03 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Yves pushing adult videos? (was: Fluff) > Finally near the end, when he finishes and the player's curiosity is now > burning a hole in his pocket, he'll probably ask. Even if he doesn't, > Yves will go ahead and explain: Don't even have him explain. If the character asks, have him shrug it off. If the character follows through, then let him know. If you really want to make it known, have the couple show up later, as part of some other plot. Bring it out then. Just my 3 cents, adjusted for inflation. > >I have returned from Pennsic - sorry for the delay in replies. > > I remember almost getting involved once with the SCA myself... What stopped you? Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com Better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven. - Milton ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 14:28:04 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Zeal! Zeal! At 4:43 PM -0400 8/19/97, Jeff Miller wrote: >At 01:56 PM 8/14/97 -0400, you wrote: >>>> I thought she found them under a cabbage leaf, and a stork brings >>>>Jordi's. ;-) >>>> >>>No, you hear Jordi making new Servators at night in the alley.... >>> >>> ...That *would* make throwing that bucket of water a much riskier task. >> >>The real reason Jordi hates humans? >> >"Snip, snip." > >Hmmm.... > >I wonder how Jordi feels about spaying and neutering pets. Probably hates it, along with breeding things like the smushed- in nose of the Persian that causes the breed so much trouble... Me, well, I'll spay and neuter my cats no matter what Jordi likes. I do draw the line at declawing, though. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 16:07:03 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> What happened to the Light (was Lucy's Word) > But what happened to the duties of the Angel of Light when he left them. > IHMO thare are two people who likely took some of the strain. The Angel of > Purity and the Angel of Fire. And what happened to them, hmmm, one Gone and > the other Mad (by some peoples measure). > > And then who had to pick up the slack from Purity having been taken away. > How about Judgement? And has people's opinion of Judgement been going up or > down since about 700 AD? Good idea. However, you missed two - Litheroy, Archangel of Revelation, and Yves, Archangel of Destiny. Both have words that relate to knowledge, especially of the Divine. Litheroy may be a recent addition, however, and Yves may be immune by virture of being older than Satan. The question is this - are the problems caused by a taint left in the Word by Satan as he left, or are the caused by realising too much about God? Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com Better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven. - Milton ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 12:01:37 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? At 09:44 PM 8/19/97 -0600, you wrote: >> I'm pretty much in favor of '3'. There is a caveat in that >> there's some talk among the Gods to limit the stats a possessor >> can bring into a Host. My vote was that it wasn't a huge problem, > I certainly don't see it as a major problem..I can see where >people might have qualms with, say, that Kyrio of Jordi animating a >bazillion swarms of gnats, each with Strength/12...but enhanced strength >is positively traditional throughout possession tales. But in this case, I'd say that the swarm itself has the strength not the individual gnats. The swarm has to work together to perform any feat of strength. >(Besides, it works both ways - if a Kyrio with CorpF/2 and Str/3 possesses >Arnie, they may LOOK tough, but they still only have Strength/3...) > I WOULD be inclined, personally, to suggest that if they stay very >long, it may burn out the host, especially using the Song... > Nah, that's what the time limit is for. Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 16:07:03 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? > >This means also that the formula for a Kyrio's Body Points are the same as > >everybody else's. > > When you don't have a vessel, what do you put in the Body formula > in place of vessel? We all know that the Kyrio/Shed/Possessor's > Strength and Corporeal Forces are used, but what is used for the > Vessel number, since even the ones which have or can have vessels > are not in them when they're in the host? I have a house rule, which balances Kyrio's a little better (IMO): Kyrio's don't have Strength or Agility ratings, only Corporeal Forces. For the purpose of possessing a host, all that is counted are the corporeal forces. So a Kyrio with 3 corporeal forces can possess 3 cats (Corporeal 1), an average human (Corp 2) and a cat, or an average human and a weak human (Corp 1). All the vessels keep their same statistics - in the case of a vessel that has stats higher than given by their forces, partial forces may be used to possess. If a Kyrio wishes, he may use his forces to boost the stats of a host - for every three attribute points invested, the vessels attribute increases two. Ethereal and Celestial stats remain those of the Kyrio. Hit points are figured individually for each host. This gives Kyrios a little more flexibility (including being able to possess two humans, if the forces are right), but reduces their vessels' durability. Comments/abuse? Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com Better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven. - Milton ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 03:23:49 -0400 From: Tony DeGeorge Subject: IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #303 -Reply I'll be out of the office from August 15th through the 24th, back again on August 25th. If you have publishing business that can't wait until I return, please contact Cindy Achar. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 04:56:33 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: IN> By the way... Speaking of NM... I know it's an abuse - but is there a way of someone send it to me (getting refunded, of course?)?? I'd be pretty glad... Andre ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 03:47:53 -0400 From: "S. John Ross" Subject: IN> Pronounciations To toss my 2cents in, there are two pronounciations which I can speak with authority on: Litheroy: LITH-(e)-roy. Something between two and three syllables. Alaemon: uh-LAY-mon. Say it like a Rastafarian cab driver and you got it right ;) And, for the record, the guys at Steve Jackson Games all say everything differently. Yves, for instance, is eeves from Derek Pearcy (rhymes with thieves), and i-viss (slight emphasis on first syllable) from Steve Jackson. I think they both agree on Novalis as NOva-lee, though. Steve has been heard to pronounce "alaemon" as "ALE-imon." But hey, it could be worse. It could be "Drow" or "Cthulhu." - -Sjohn Visit the Blue Room . . . http://www.cybercity.com/blueroom/blue.htm "In writing War and Peace, Tolstoy was going for the Big Laugh, but the more he wrote, the more elusive it became." -- Sidney Harris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 04:47:05 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> Chistopher Attunements Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Now, with luck, that's enough to do up the character, but not > enough to be infringing on copyright. You *will* buy the book, > though, right? If I'll buy it??? After all this fuss around it??? Of course I will - - I can't wait to devour NM from cover to cover!! And I wouldn't tell, but I'm already familiar with the Austin setting - anyone remembers a GURPS adventure published by SJGames called "Flight 13"? Where some aliens make a plane land in an alternative Austin just to test the characters ( there's this NPC, an artist, and I made him Michael Jackson...)??So I can't wait to reenconter Austin and see what they've done to it. *Also*, I'm a Vampire player and the whole undead thing matters a lot to me. And, at last, I'm building a multi-city chronicle using the Principality concept - and a city's write up, like what is done for Austin, along with Saints (every city has its Patron Saint, hasn't it? Maybe a kind of WW's 'prince'... or the city's main Tether's Seneschal...) is particularly useful to me. Finishing: I hadn't made any comments on the "Why I bought/didn't buy Night Music" issue 'cause I've not even seen it yet. But I can tell why I *will* buy it: Because it's there! Andre P.S. Enough to circumnvent the copyright lawsuit?? :-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 04:36:43 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Lilim Geases >>>Why should Lilim be the only ones to have Geas-conflicts slamming down on them unexpectedly?<<< I don't see the connection here. Geas conflicts are different from pre-tested Geases. >>>Hrm? Resist them? Lost me, sorry.<<< Sorry. (Another late-night e-mail session.) I meant only Lilim can *enforce* them. >>>And that's what they're getting -- a "promise not to resist later," and the lower level of unspecified.<<< Are you saying the subject gets to *choose*? I.e. "I have a level 4 Geas on you now, but I can lower it to level 2, in exchange for you agreeing to do an *unspecified* service in the future"? First of all, I don't see how this would work in roleplaying terms. And even if a "pre-tested" Geas has to be voluntarily agreed to by the subject, the whole idea of pre-tested Geases adds a totally unnecessary layer of complication, goes against the spirit of the original concept, takes away from the drama of acquiring a Geas and then invoking it, AND it still lends itself to abuse. It makes Lilim vastly more powerful, with no added roleplaying benefit, and to the detraction of the system. By the way, I don't think Geases should be additive *or* divisible, and don't allow it in my games. But TPTB have already ruled differently as far as canon is concerned. - -David http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/innomine.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 05:42:56 -0400 From: Tony DeGeorge Subject: IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #302 -Reply I'll be out of the office from August 15th through the 24th, back again on August 25th. If you have publishing business that can't wait until I return, please contact Cindy Achar. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 05:51:42 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Death and Spare Bodies From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" > That's why the Body Bagsexist at all!< I thoughty that was so you could fall back to a vessel at another location. Either after you have died or after you have gone celestial? >Someone who has just been whacked does not have the presence of >mind to do _anything_, much less something as complicated as >bringing a new vessel into existence. Including The Malakim who are supposed to be unfazed by physical death? Adam Canning Dahak@Compuserve.Com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 05:52:15 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Lilim Geases At 9:19 AM -0400 8/20/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >>5) Untested Geases don't count as Discord < Check Miriam Kahn in Night Music. Her Gease 5 is listed as Discord even though it hasn't been called in. From: Elizabeth McCoy >Called in, of course. The "test" just makes it a standard Discord- >Geas. Even a Lilim is free to ignore someone trying to invoke a Geas >for "too much.") The standard Discord Geas is a binding to do one specific task. The example [ N page88] is deleivering an item. It is not a You owe me one in the future like the lilim Geas. The clock starts running on achieving the task when the Geas is Aquired. I.e. it is just like the Lilim Gease after the target has been told what to do. [Not You owe me one so you owe me one.] >Why should Lilim be the only ones to have >Geas-conflicts slamming down on them unexpectedly? Because as the rules are written they are the only ones who's Geases can fail. >Yes, it's perfectly valid to be able to say, "You can't trade Geases at >all, except to Lilith herself." But that's no fun. Why is it no fun? How is it any more no fun than Malakim not getting automatic combat advantages over demons? or Kyriotates not being able to possess people as long as they like? It also makes for more interesting situations if you know the only way the person invoking the geas on you is because they did a deal with lilith for it. >> Hey, it's what the Lilim themselves are walking around with, >> and what they trade with people! Why is it any less fair to >> let them take the risk ahead of time and get that blank check? From: "Nathaniel Eliot" >Because testing a Geas doesn't take into effect environmental >factors. What if the eventual Geas is one that is fit for the level, >but which the geased character would, for some reason, be better able >to resist. For example, a geas high enough to get somebody to kill a >person, that was invoked to have them kill their lover. >Even if the GM ruled that that would increase the level required, it >also misses one more thing - the character's essence expendature. A >character isn't likely to blow all their essence to resist a "you owe >me" (at least, not the first time), but will blow it for a "kill your >wife". Not to mention the fact that the character may have gained points of willpower after you get the geas but before you use it. Also it appears that you have to tell the target of the geas in person what you want to trigger the geas, that may be either much easier or more difficult when you come to call it in [And is some what more difficult than informing the recipient of the pretested geas what he is to do.]. Adam Canning Dahak@Compuserve.Com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 06:08:40 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: From: IN> A silly Ofanim of Jean Trick From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" > The problem with Servitor Attunements is that anyone can get them. What's the big fuss about being an Ofanim when you can reach out and touch someone for only 10 points? Notice that the Ofanim of Lightning Attunement specifically restricted the range. This particular attunement strikes me as far too cheap (or too powerful if you want to look at it that way). < John, I hate to tell you but the standard Offanim of Jean Ability is a Choir attunement that doesn't mention the resonance of the choir, so any servant of Jean can buy it. It was just a thought anyway. Adam Canning Dahak@Compuserve.Com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 08:41:05 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: Remnants (Re: IN> A silly Ofanim of Jean Trick) > Coincidence. Demons turn into Remnants just the same, as far as > I know. (Heh. This nice, slightly pathetic Remnant that the angels > are gritting their teeth and trying to help... turns out to have > been a Servitor of, oh, Lust. Or the Game. Or Nybbas...) Oh. My. That is so COOL! - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 08:38:56 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Geases I think this has been mentioned, but I'll run it by everyone (my apologies if it has!) Lilim take Dissonance from a failed Geas request because that's their nature. Cool. Geases can be traded to people without such a nature. Okay, I'm still with you there. If we link the Will-reduction to the Lilim resonance, that means that a non-Lilim could make a Geas-request but without the reduction. A failure would not generate dissonance since the part of the resonance that causes the backlash is gone. A person who is knowledgeable about Geases could attempt to use the Will-reduction aspects of a Geas, but will suffer some non-dissonance backlash of some sort. (One die damage per level of Geas in whatever realm the _Geasee_ is most closely associated, perhaps. That means if you fail to Geas a celestial, you are about to take Soul hits!) Does this sound balanced? (And reasonable... two separate matters!) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 08:44:55 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Corporeal Vessels > > Quint=five. ;) > > Prick. Anybody care to lend me a Clue-by-Four so I can smack John > for the really well hidden pun? Now, now, now. It was in plain sight for everyone to see. Besides, it's a _great_ way to make sure no one forgets that particular number. ("Repeat after me... five essence, five disturbance, five essence, five disturbance...") > I have returned from Pennsic - sorry for the delay in replies. I heard it was a bit... ahem... _wet_ at Pennsic this year. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 08:53:32 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Geases > I think it's wonky, too - six little favors (like buying somebody > dinner) in exchange for killing somebody? No. > > I'd say that to form a geas from smaller geas, you need x geas of the > next level, where x is the level of the new geas. So a level 2 geas > takes two level 1 geasa, and a level 6 geas takes six level 5 geasa. > You may also want to limit the amount of times a geas can be > increased - even 720 meals won't equal killing somebody. Say that a > geas cannot be included in any geas more than two levels higher. So > level one geasa could only be made level 3, and it would take level 3 > geasa or higher to make a level 6. > > Comments/abuse? Not unreasonable, but I won't use it. (Or if I did, I'd use the easier two-for-one method, i.e. each level costs two of the previous level.) Another option is to _only_ allow them to be combined to one or two levels higher. So a three and two could equal a five, but no number of threes could equal a six. a) the original method is simpler (important!) b) If some Lilim goes through all the effort of doing six little favors for some shmuck, well that's their reward then. The whole 'favor' thing, I believe, is designed to represent the gradual selling of your soul to someone else. Small things, so easy... until the payment comes due. I envision some Lilim as going down and handing out bottles to winos on skid row (or the local equivalent wherever the campaign is being held) so that she can use them in some more important scheme. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 10:41:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Religious Patrons On Wed, 20 Aug 1997, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > > Gabriel was, if I remember correctly, the angel that supposedly dictated > > the book of Mormon to Joseph Smith Junior and thus started the Mormons. > > I think she gets the role of "Celestial mouth" a lot. I thought it was the angel Moroni that appeared and gave Joseph Smith a pair of glasses that allowed him to read the writing of the golden book. (Assuming I rememeber correctly; I'm not Mormon.) - -- Casca (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 97 12:05 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Geases >Even if the GM ruled that that would increase the level required, it >also misses one more thing - the character's essence expendature. A >character isn't likely to blow all their essence to resist a "you owe >me" (at least, not the first time), but will blow it for a "kill your >wife". That's the only really strong point I've heard against the pre-testing notion. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 10:45:00 -0400 (EDT) From: IQJason@aol.com Subject: IN> [FLUFF] Diabolical Dealings at Gen Con Okay...this'll probably interest, oh, three people on the list. But it's neat, and on-topic (sort of) so I'll share it anyway. When the InQuest staff and I went to Gen Con this year, part of the program was doing a photo-spread for a "tour of Gen Con" article we plan to run. It's to feature Rick Swan (one of our contributing editors) going around the con, seeing the sights and being goofy. The conceit, however, is that you never see what Rick looks like. (One of the long-standing things about InQuest is that Rick Swan is never shown in the articles: it started because, well, he's in Iowa and we're in New York. Now, it's a running gag.) Any time you see him, he's got a paper bag over his head. Now, one of the things that makes a con is the floor costumes. So, we wanted to have Rick photographed in a funny outfit -- especially one that was obviously inappropriate for him, getting a stand-in to wear the bag. And what's more 'fantasy' goofy than a woman in a chain-mail bikini? In short...we had a Need. And guess who showed up to fulfill it? Okay, McCoy...it was fairly sneaky making the deal when I wasn't around to warn anyone. Just tell me how big a Geas we owe you now. And will that Basic Training for IN cover it? yours, being silly, Jason Schneiderman PS -- You do wear it well, y'know. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 11:47:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Louis Wainwright Subject: IN> Asmodeus's Humanity Hi all. I'm new to both IN and the mailing list. I'm just about to start running a game and I have a couple of questions. I've read the IN FAQ and didn't see any discussion of this very cool attunement. Asmodeus's Humanity Attunement - What really happens to a demon with this ability? Here are my questions. 1) Vessel/Body? My interpretation is that the demon's Vessel becomes a human body. This means that it would have the Body hits of a Mortal (NM, p. 31.) I really don't worry about this from a game mechanics viewpoint, but I think it's important that while 'Humanity' is on the demon is much more vulnerable. 2) Death? So, speaking of vulnerable, what happens to a demon when their corporeal form is killed while using 'Humanity'? Anything special? 3) Songs? I don't understand why a demon can't use songs. I'd think that they could use corporeal songs. They can use essence, so effectively they are as a six force human. Hence I'd think corporeal songs should be fine. 4) Disturbance? Obviously they don't cause disturbance, but what happens if an angel smacks a demon using 'Humanity'? Does that act cause disturbance? I'd say yes. 5) Tethers? Can a demon using 'Humanity' go into a Divine Tether? If yes, it seems like a too powerful way to spy. If no, it seems like it makes them too easy to flush out. Of course since Asmodeus is mostly concerned with demons, it is probably not going to come up too often. But as the fake SoG in NM shows, the situation can certainly arise. Perhaps the Tether should cause damage, but not be completely inpenetrable. Any discussion, ideas, comments would be appriciated. Thanks, Lou Wainwright wainwrig@ntrnet.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 11:04:03 -0400 (EDT) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: IN> Word Bound Celestials Somewhere in my brain, while I came off of another caffeine high, I had more weird thoughts in a hallucinatory sort of way. I was thinking about Word-bound Celestials, in sort of a round about way. I created, to inflict upon my unsuspecting PCs (who are starting to think I'm getting really weird) an NPC named Cardinal Georgio Biotti, a high ranking celestial in Dominic's camp who embodies the Word of Religious Wrath, or something to that effect. Either that, or Sin. I haven't decided. So, what I would like, is that when he appears, something actually happens to the people in his presence. Humans feel suddenly like they have done something horribly wrong, which can be justified in a passage in the Bible, and feel the need to be 'judged' and ultimately punished. This would not effect Celestials, and humans which make Will rolls. Think of it like an Aura of Word. My feeling, and ultimate justification for pulling something like this, is that the Celestial physically embodies the Word they are given. It's not so much that they need to promote it, as they ARE it, and it effects the Symphony in such a way. It would also keep very powerful Word-bound celestials from screwing around on Earth, since influencing human reactions is probably not a good idea, at least for Angels. It also amplifies the effect of a Superior showing up. If say, Andrealphus drops in, people feel the crazed need to fornicate with the closest human they find mildly attractive. It's a nice effect, especially for the Dominic the Balseraph sort of setting. Celestial walks into said church/cathedral, filled with people bowed, waiting for Judgement to come upon them, and the corrupt priesthood forcing their will upon them. I could kind of see this branching out. The Angel of Synchronicity appears, and everything feels like it's in check. The Demon of Talk Show Hosts appears, and you feel the need to confess your darkest secrets. The Demon of Hot Sauce appears, and people start eating jalapenos by the bucketful. That sort of thing. And maybe it happens on a (very) small scale for non-Word bounds. Angels of Destiny may make people feel more confident temporarily, where a Demon of the Game will make people feel the need to keep secrets and jerk people around. I feel I'm getting too dark for the genre, and yes, this is not in the rules and completely non-canon. BUT... I feel there needs to be some sort of effect. Yes? No? Too bizarre? Emily K. Dresner, M.S.Eng. Computer Systems Consultant III Medical Center Information Technology Desktop Applications Team Current Quote: "Angels are just Demons not yet Fallen." - B. T. VandGrift ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #304 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.