From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Aug 21 21:12:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA16473 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 21:12:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA24692 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 19:41:39 -0500 Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 19:41:39 -0500 Message-Id: <199708220041.TAA24692@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #305 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, August 21 1997 Volume 01 : Number 305 In this digest: Re: IN> Chistopher Attunements Re: IN> What happened to the Light (was Lucy's Word) IN> Vessels Re: Smut (and nothing but) Re: IN> Fluff IN> (Another) Q about Lilim Re: IN> Religious Patrons Re: IN> Shedim and Night Music Re: IN> Lilim Geases IN> Spare Vessels Re: IN> Pronounciations Re: IN> Death and Spare Bodies Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? Re: IN> [FLUFF] Diabolical Dealings at Gen Con Re: From: IN> A silly Ofanim of Jean Trick IN> Kyriosity Killed the Kat Re: IN> Religious Patrons Re: IN> Fluff (Superiors' Appearance) Re: IN> Word Bound Celestials Re: Smut (and nothing but) Re: IN> Fluff Re: IN> Death and Spare Bodies Re: IN> Lilim Geases Re: IN> [FLUFF] Diabolical Dealings at Gen Con IN> Lilim Geases Re: IN> [FLUFF] Diabolical Dealings at Gen Con ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Aug 97 12:31 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Chistopher Attunements > And I wouldn't tell, >but I'm already familiar with the Austin setting - anyone remembers a >GURPS adventure published by SJGames called "Flight 13"? Yep. The NM Austin is rather different in some ways, mostly due to the focus of things. Incidentally, the alien headquarters in Flight 13 is none other than the SJG office/warehouse building. Though SJG has done some major changes to the building since Flight 13, so I wouldn't plan any night visits to SJG headquarters using the old maps.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 09:30:12 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> What happened to the Light (was Lucy's Word) Then there's St. Lucile (or St. Lucy), patron saint of light and vision. Can a human soul be given a Word? Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 13:53:10 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Vessels >>>But those other Vessels don't exist unless they are in Body Bags. They aren't there until you create them.<<< You can have multiple vessels. If they aren't in Body Bags, they are in "null-space" until you switch vessels. - -David http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/innomine.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 09:52:00 -0400 (EDT) From: IQJason@aol.com Subject: Re: Smut (and nothing but) Re: IN> Fluff Nathaniel Eliot writes about triple-XXX films, novels, and other stuff. More essence for me. ;) "Not necessarily. Not having seen many pornos, I couldn't name a movie, but something along the lines of Lady Chatterly's Lover," Not a correction, just a comment -- jeez, what a lousy piece of erotica that was. "Silent Came the Stranger," *giggle* It's 'Naked Came...". And a fairly funny backstory; the 'author' was actually a group of magazine writers and authors who wrote a chapter apiece. They pulled off the scam for several months before letting the joke go. "or other well written smut might be very good for the soul. Andy deals with stuff like Dolly Does Dallas." Debbie. And I think that Andre's oevure might be more of the non-con porn productions...if Linda Lovelace's stories about the making of "Deep Throat" are to be believed, that'd be an example. yours, Jason Schneiderman ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 13:53:09 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> (Another) Q about Lilim >>>In general, I agree with you, but just the existance of the Role does not preclude getting a Geas as well. A Lilim with a Doctor role doesn't have an agreement with every person they meet on the street who might need medical attention. "Hey man, you look like you've been shot! Want some help?" On the other hand, as you say, if you working in a hospital, you have already been recompensed for your efforts when a patient shows up.<<< I guess that would preclude the trick that Lilim of Fate used, collecting Geases on babies with her Role as a maternity ward nurse, then. - -David http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/innomine.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 09:04:32 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Religious Patrons On Aug 20, 1:47pm, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Religious Patrons > > >Any other ideas?< > > > > Gabriel was, if I remember correctly, the angel that supposedly dictated > > the book of Mormon to Joseph Smith Junior and thus started the Mormons. > > I think she gets the role of "Celestial mouth" a lot. Burning bushes, anyone? ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 09:30:18 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Night Music On Aug 20, 2:25pm, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Subject: IN> Shedim and Night Music > Main book, it's pretty clear that Shedim can only possess humans, > right? Yes. > > Night Music, Billy Bob Buford wants a Shedite to possess his > drug/explosive-sniffing dogs, to tell which is which... > > Three-B getting Shedim mixed up with Kyrios, from previous > experience? B-cubed doesn't seem particularly bright, no... ;) IMO, the author messed up on that section. Ignore the reference to Shedim! - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 09:45:39 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Geases > >Yes, it's perfectly valid to be able to say, "You can't trade Geases at > >all, except to Lilith herself." But that's no fun. > > Why is it no fun? How is it any more no fun than Malakim not getting > automatic combat advantages over demons? or Kyriotates not being able to > possess people as long as they like? It also makes for more interesting > situations if you know the only way the person invoking the geas on you is > because they did a deal with lilith for it. Trading Geases are _essential_ to understanding Lilim. It's how they are most like their creator, Lilith. Plus you close off an enormous number of Geas-based plotlines if you don't let them trade. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 09:02:35 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: IN> Spare Vessels > Huh? I think there was a ruling (from Moriah or Derek?) a long time > back that said that you *could* switch to another vessel after being > killed (i.e., as a dying action). The drawback being that your new > vessel is right where the old one got toasted. The main advantage of a > Body Bag is that the new vessel *isn't* in the line of fire. > > Or so I recall.... This would make Trauma almost impossible for smart celestials. Why wouldn't every celestial take the time to have one or two cheap (probably animal) and fast alternate vessels? A cat or a bird for example. Ah well. I'm going to let my ruling stand unless Derek or Moriah speaks up. There has to be _some_ drama to combat after all! ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 09:35:23 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Pronounciations On Aug 21, 3:47am, S. John Ross wrote: > Subject: IN> Pronounciations > > > To toss my 2cents in, there are two pronounciations which I can speak with > authority on: > > > Litheroy: LITH-(e)-roy. Something between two and three syllables. > Alaemon: uh-LAY-mon. Say it like a Rastafarian cab driver and you got it > right ;) > > And, for the record, the guys at Steve Jackson Games all say everything > differently. Yves, for instance, is eeves from Derek Pearcy (rhymes with > thieves), and i-viss (slight emphasis on first syllable) from Steve Jackson. > I think they both agree on Novalis as NOva-lee, though. Steve has been heard > to pronounce "alaemon" as "ALE-imon." > > But hey, it could be worse. It could be "Drow" or "Cthulhu." Well, y'all have heard it here first. The canon is... there are no canon pronounciations. Have fun! - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 09:43:53 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Death and Spare Bodies On Aug 21, 5:51am, Adam Canning wrote: > Subject: IN> Death and Spare Bodies > From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" > > That's why the Body Bagsexist at all!< > > I thoughty that was so you could fall back to a vessel at another location. > Either after you have died or after you have gone celestial? > > >Someone who has just been whacked does not have the presence of > >mind to do _anything_, much less something as complicated as > >bringing a new vessel into existence. > > Including The Malakim who are supposed to be unfazed by physical death? Even they end up in the Celestial realms and have to jog back down to the Corporeal. They're not phased, they're pissed. ;) IN, p.67 "When the corporeal vessel of a celestial ... is killed, his Forces regroup in the celestial realm, but his soul may need time to recover." "...Malakim... are immune to Trauma..." So Malakim suffer no Trauma, but they do get 'kicked upstairs'. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 09:16:41 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? > Is that really enough of a change, though? I was serious about reversing > the stats: Power -1; Acc +6. Since the Acc will probably translate into a > check digit plus at short range, I think that make them reasonably lethal > at short range. At long range, power -1 is appropriate for a sawed off > shotgun, but you're still very likely to wing the birdie with some of the > shot. Shotguns at short range do massive amounts of damage. Remember that we are only talking a d6 here! d6-1 does an average of 2.5 points of damage. They certainly do more damage than most pistols (to unarmored targets, that is... shotgun pellets have very little penetrating power). - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 97 15:45 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> [FLUFF] Diabolical Dealings at Gen Con >Now, one of the things that makes a con is the floor costumes. So, we wanted >to have Rick photographed in a funny outfit -- especially one that was >obviously inappropriate for him, getting a stand-in to wear the bag. And >what's more 'fantasy' goofy than a woman in a chain-mail bikini? > >In short...we had a Need. And guess who showed up to fulfill it? Actually, I don't think you could call it a bikini -- the bottom part was a skirt. And she had a catsuit on under it. >Okay, McCoy...it was fairly sneaky making the deal when I wasn't around to >warn anyone. Just tell me how big a Geas we owe you now. And will that Basic >Training for IN cover it? That's all right, SJ had his picture taken with her too. You have to wonder what she'll ask from him.... >PS -- You do wear it well, y'know. That she does. I should have thought to get a Polaroid of it to scan and put up on a Web page somewhere. Guess we'll have to wait for the GenCon film to get developed.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 09:51:04 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: From: IN> A silly Ofanim of Jean Trick On Aug 21, 6:08am, Adam Canning wrote: > Subject: From: IN> A silly Ofanim of Jean Trick > From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" > > The problem with Servitor Attunements is that anyone can > get them. What's the big fuss about being an Ofanim when you > can reach out and touch someone for only 10 points? Notice that > the Ofanim of Lightning Attunement specifically restricted the > range. This particular attunement strikes me as far too cheap > (or too powerful if you want to look at it that way). > < > > John, I hate to tell you but the standard Offanim of Jean Ability is a > Choir attunement that doesn't mention the resonance of the choir, so any > servant of Jean can buy it. Nor did I say they couldn't. I referred to _any_ Ofanim, rather than just one of Jean. Ofanim are supposed to be the fastest things in creation, right? (Excepting some Kyrio tricks... ;) ) A servant of Jean (or of ANY superior with permission) ponies up ten points to get this new Attunement and says, "Ofanim step aside, a Cherub is coming through!" - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 11:41:09 -0400 (EDT) From: IQJason@aol.com Subject: IN> Kyriosity Killed the Kat (Wow. This is the most I've posted to the list in a long while.) Anyway...I've got a question about our fine feathered (occasionally) friends the Kyriotates. As a change of pace, though, this one's not rules centered. It's a roleplaying issue. I'm having trouble understanding the way that the Kyriotate resonance -- multiplicity -- is an aspect of the Divine in the way that truth or honor are. All the other bands and choirs I can wrap my head around, but I can't quite grasp the Kyrios. The closest I could come was: "Kyrios represent the divine quality of Omnipresence, being multiple places at once," but that's not quite it. Is there anyone out there on the list who feels an affinity towards the Dominions the way that Archangel Beth does toward the Lilim? I'd appreciate someone to bounce ideas off. yours, - -J ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 12:32:03 -0700 (PDT) From: nightgaunt@earthlink.net (Alexander Shearer) Subject: Re: IN> Religious Patrons >I thought it was the angel Moroni that appeared and gave Joseph Smith a >pair of glasses that allowed him to read the writing of the golden book. >(Assuming I rememeber correctly; I'm not Mormon.) I'm not either, but I have the book. Some relevent text: "He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people." -From the Testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith, in the Book of Mormon Joseph Smith was visited repeatedly on later dates by Moroni (who subsequently told him where to find the plates and so on). Just from reading the BoM, Moroni doesn't seem very unstable, so it might be hard to play him as another name for Gabriel. I should read Pearl of Great Price before I theorize more, however. Alexander Shearer nightgaunt@earthlink.net gaunt@uclink4.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 18:05:55 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Fluff (Superiors' Appearance) On Wed, 20 Aug 1997, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > > > I'm also planning on having Yves meet one of the PCs in a Blockbuster > > > Video. At one point, he'll see two men in the adult video section, > > > nonchalantly pick out a video, and hand it to one of the men. Take my > > > word for it, the scene takes on a rather surreal turn after that... > > > > > > > Hmm.... I wonder--what do you have in mind? How can it get any more > > surreal than Yves giving a couple of men an adult video? I mean, the > > tapes he's giving them are tools of Andrealphus... > > Not necessarily. Not having seen many pornos, I couldn't name a > movie, but something along the lines of Lady Chatterly's Lover, > Silent Came the Stranger, or other well written smut might be very > good for the soul. Andy deals with stuff like Dolly Does Dallas. All right, someone brouched the issue so I have to ask. Which camp produced "The Devil in Miss Jones?" For those who have not seen it, it is about a young virgin who commits suicide, and is sent to hell. It seems that her only great sin is the suicide, so the devil sends her back to Earth for a short time so that she can have sex, and enjoy some of life. The problem comes from the fact that she becomes addicted to sex, and when she is brought back to hell, she is put in a room with a man who refuses to admit she is there. >;-) My vote is one of the Eli to warn against make pacts with hell, and Andi in perticular. Shadowcat ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 16:56:23 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Word Bound Celestials I don't excactly have a suggestion, but this reminds me of the special effects attending the Four Horsepersons of the Apocalypse in "Good Omens." They foregather in a pub. Famine shows up and the barkeep finds he's out of snacks and short on beer. War shows up and people start picking quarrels. Pollution (the successor to Pestilence) shows up and the barkeep notices the bar is dusty, the floor needs mopping, and there's litter everywhere. Death, it turns out, was already there... Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 00:45:56 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: Smut (and nothing but) Re: IN> Fluff On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 IQJason@aol.com wrote: > Debbie. And I think that Andre's oevure might be more of the non-con porn > productions...if Linda Lovelace's stories about the making of "Deep Throat" > are to be believed, that'd be an example. Which Story that Linda told? The first one, that she said she enjoyed it, or the second where she said she was forced? She didn't get enought attention from the first book, which also discussed her "Big" scene in "Dogarama." So she wrote a second book that said she had a gun held to her head during the entire filming of her movies. The second story has been countered by a lot of people who were there, including the owner of the co-star of "Dogarama." Shadowcat &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& "There are 3 sizes of men: small, Medium, and OH MY GOD." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 16:34:26 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Death and Spare Bodies At 5:51 AM -0400 8/21/97, Adam Canning wrote: >From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" >> That's why the Body Bagsexist at all!< > >I thoughty that was so you could fall back to a vessel at another location. >Either after you have died or after you have gone celestial? (Sounded good to me...) >>Someone who has just been whacked does not have the presence of >>mind to do _anything_, much less something as complicated as >>bringing a new vessel into existence. > >Including The Malakim who are supposed to be unfazed by physical death? Yeah, well, you stub your toe and it wrecks your concentration for a little bit... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 17:50:49 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Geases At 4:36 AM -0400 8/21/97, David Edelstein wrote: >>>>Why should Lilim be the only ones to have Geas-conflicts slamming down >on them unexpectedly?<<< > >I don't see the connection here. Geas conflicts are different from >pre-tested Geases. Conflicts of interest, I meant there. Going along, minding your own business, doing [x], and then somebody comes up and says, "I've got a job for you." >>>>Hrm? Resist them? Lost me, sorry.<<< > >Sorry. (Another late-night e-mail session.) I meant only Lilim can >*enforce* them. If a Geas isn't self-enforcing, it's no longer a Geas. If only Lilim can *enforce* a Geas, that means that only Lilim can *invoke* a Geas. >>>>And that's what they're getting -- a "promise not to resist later," >and the lower level of unspecified.<<< > >Are you saying the subject gets to *choose*? I.e. "I have a level 4 Geas on >you now, but I can lower it to level 2, in exchange for you agreeing to do >an *unspecified* service in the future"? [...] It's an "in effect" thing, caused by explaining on too-little food. (Though a Lilim *could* make that bargain, I'd say!) She burns some of the power of the Geas, turning its hooks into actual bonds. >[...] the whole idea of pre-tested Geases adds a totally unnecessary >layer of complication, goes against the spirit of the original concept, >takes away from the drama of acquiring a Geas and then invoking it, AND it >still lends itself to abuse. It makes Lilim vastly more powerful, with no >added roleplaying benefit, and to the detraction of the system. I really don't see where you're coming from in that sense. The basic problem is: "Can Lilim trade the 'hooks' they get when they fulfill someone's Need? If yes, then who gets the dissonance should the subject make his Will roll?" Options: #1: "No. It's not a Geas yet, so it can't be traded." problem: no fun. #2: "Yes, but only between Lilim (or Superiors). The Lilim invoking the Hook takes any dissonance." problem: damfiknow. lowers options for trading, I guess. #3: "Yes. The invoker takes dissonance." #3a: "... or (if non-Lilim) hits of some kind." problem: is the 'backlash effect' a function of the Geas or of the Lilim having given something for nothing and thus acted against her nature? #3b: "Yes. The Lilim who set the hook takes dissonance." problem: Lilim will never trade hooks, 'cause somebody might abuse them as in the seed that started this. see #1. #3c: "... but if non-Lilim, nobody takes dissonance/damage." problem: Lilim will never *invoke* their own hooks, but will go through Servants like gumdrops. Celestials will never accept favors, and will whack anybody asking. #3d: "... but the subject's Will is not reduced; nobody takes dissonance." problem: see #3c; humans have pathetic Will anyway. #4: "No, but hooks can be turned into real Geases by a Lilim in some fashion." problem: Lilim can avoid 'random' dissonance and determining how much Essence is spent resisting becomes difficult. #5: "Errata. There are no 'hooks.' The subject attempts his Will roll as soon as the Lilim informs him the Need is fulfilled. (must be 'live,' not recorded, as per resonance rules for demons.) If he makes it, she takes dissonance; if he fails, he bears a Geas that can be invoked in the future." problem: same as #4, though dissonance is somewhat more 'random.' >By the way, I don't think Geases should be additive *or* divisible, and >don't allow it in my games. But TPTB have already ruled differently as far >as canon is concerned. Exactly. :-p (I don't mind divisible or additive -- just not the *way* they're divided and added!) At 1:47 PM +0000 8/20/97, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: >Because testing a Geas doesn't take into effect environmental >factors. What if the eventual Geas is one that is fit for the level, >but which the geased character would, for some reason, be better able >to resist. For example, a geas high enough to get somebody to kill a >person, that was invoked to have them kill their lover. That *would* be a "harder" target -- from a Geas/4 (for somebody that the person would *like* to kill), to a Geas/5 (your average civilian who doesn't do killing), to Geas/6 ("Yo, go sacrifice your son! (just kidding!)"). However, it is a point for essence expenditure reasons. Noted, above. At 8:38 AM -0400 8/21/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > I think this has been mentioned, but I'll run it by >everyone (my apologies if it has!) [...] > If we link the Will-reduction to the Lilim resonance, >that means that a non-Lilim could make a Geas-request but >without the reduction. A failure would not generate dissonance >since the part of the resonance that causes the backlash is >gone. > A person who is knowledgeable about Geases could attempt >to use the Will-reduction aspects of a Geas, but will suffer >some non-dissonance backlash of some sort. (One die damage >per level of Geas in whatever realm the _Geasee_ is most closely >associated, perhaps. That means if you fail to Geas a celestial, >you are about to take Soul hits!) > > Does this sound balanced? (And reasonable... two >separate matters!) No. With Wills in the 1-3 range, humans aren't likely to make their Will rolls even *without* a reduction! If you give an option that non-Lilim can make requests, you get a case where a Geas is more valuable to others than to the Lilim herself! In pure self-interest, she teams up with someone to invoke the Geases for her (and for him as well). Forget angels -- they can mop up with humans plenty easy. Instant temporary Hellsworn, just add Geasa. :-) (Sure, the theory works fine, but the game-balance goes pfft. Example: in the current game I'm in, the GM's let me do a Renegade who's Geas-bound to serve an Archangel. She does someone a favor in the course of an adventure, and can hand it off to one of her angel-partners (other PCs) to invoke and nobody risks anything? (Except maybe a little noise as they hit the fellow with the Song of Charm...) Would you want that trick going on in your game? For that matter... Example 2: John, would you want Serah and Bez to be doing that kind of thing all the time? Especially combined with the canon additive-Geases... If so, please, tell me, so Serah can start looking for Need/1's in everyone she sees, bundle up a few, and let Bez invoke them. ) At 11:02 AM -0600 8/20/97, Kingsley Lintz wrote: [...] >My major problem >with Geasa being STRICTLY a Lilim-only thing (only they can do them, only >they can invoke them, etc.) is that mythology is just chock full of >non-Lilim inducing and invoking them. I'm not sure that Geases are *strictly* Lilim only -- just Lilim-only in the Bands. I could see some Ethereals (especially powerful ones) doing it, as well as some Word-Bound, and all Superiors. The Geasa that a Superior slaps on you will probably not be resistable, either. >> > That might be of some interest, but that was also harder to >> >get, and Andre MIGHT have some curiosity as to just what Need you >> >fulfilled. >> Hey, these are Servitors of Creation we're talking about here! Look >> at their Rites... ("Well, she needed some Essence, y'see...") > "Ohhh," Andre murmers, thoughtfully, steepling his fingers and >lounging back on the bed. "So THAT's where she got the Essence to fend >off those Calabim I finally talked Baal into sending, after spending more >than a month arranging for her to not have any. Baal's rather upset, >darling...since you're responsible, I think you can assuage his anger." >*I* think it's risky, even with Servitors of Creation... ('Course, >then he raises an eyebrow, leaning forward. "So..how was she?") Hey, you just have to talk fast. ("Pretty good. Be a shame if Baal tore me apart before I had a chance to sell this Geas to someone who would like to *savor* it, slowly... Oh, and exactly when was this that she came up with the extra Essence? I think I was out of town when the Calabim showed up.") And make sure you know some of the politics before you do the deal, of course! >> >live," not "Don't make a mess in Bloomingdales." I'm willing to bet a >> >fair number of them will off your servant right there[...] >> It does tend to trash the Role you've got, though. And, > Yeah, but it trashes a servant of evil MORE... Oh, who cares about them -- they just show up in Hell as an Essence source and you get another one, right? >> >That's what an UNTESTED Geas is - "I or my >> >agent will contact you to request a favor, which you will then do." >> Unfortunately, not. There are two kinds >> of Geas -- the kind that Lilim can self-Geas themselves to do, >> and the kind that they get on other people. [...] > Right, but none of that changes. Either you INVOKE an "I or my >agent et cetera" right away, they make their Will roll, and you have a >free and clear tested Geas which isn't what Geasa are traditionally all >about, Erm? Could you elaborate on that one a bit? They failed the roll, and now they Owe a Favor. It's not a specific favor *yet*, but neither does it cause dissonance/loss of hits... >or you have your "I or my agent et cetera" in your rolodex until >you call them up and give them a specific service, at which point they >make their roll. This would actually be fine and dandy -- except that between the fulfilling of the Need and the Invoking of the Geas, there's this "gray" area where the Lilim has a "hook" in a person that has a chance to turn into a Geas. ("Hook." I think I'll use that more!) If Lilim can trade that "hook" around, it does wonky things when a non-Lilim goes to invoke it. Turning it into a full-blown Geas like the ones Lilim carry (and trade like CCG cards) makes it a lot simpler to handwave about. >> *** Will roll *when the Need is fulfilled*, & if he fails it, then *** >> *** the Lilim gets her Geas (tradeable, visible as Discord), and *** > I still have to say I'm very much against any idea that leaves a >NON-SPECIFIED (tested or otherwise) Geas as visible Discord on the >subject. But the precident is already set! Lilim show all *their* unspecified Geasa as Discord! >Primarily due to what a Geas is, but also for that easy Malakim >kill. (See him, get a few low-level Needs, and start fulfilling them on >the other side of the planet until he misses a Will roll...then just >forget about him. Granted, it could make an interesting adventure hook >for a PC Malakim to have to somehow hunt down this Lilim and MAKE her give >him a task..."Say `pretty please', and maybe I'll let you do something for >me." But I may be getting back to those corsets, so I'll just leave that >train where it is...) Though Geases are stated to be "the only Discord angels don't see as a sign of weakness" -- the Malakite could probably explain the problem. I do amend to what Karakash said -- "when the Lilim notifies the subject that the Need is fulfilled." And add a further cavat -- if the subject had the Need handled in the meantime, the Lilim's attempt won't put the hook in. ("Sorry, but I already got enough money to pay off my car.") >> True, though I don't think I'd mind that -- they still have to risk >> getting dissonance with a "pre-test." And, as you say below... > I'm afraid I've got to stand with David's comment that knowing >WHEN you're getting the dissonance is a more abuseable advantage than >being able to dodge it completely as long as other people help out. You >might as WELL not get any at that point, and you still get to use the Geas >yourself...unless you want to come up with some justification why they can >only test Geasa during play-time, for some reason, and not between >sessions. I don't think that knowing *when* is *MORE* abusable than dodging it entirely. That it *is* abuseable, I would grant, though I think a combination of factors ameliorate it a *lot* more than a way to avoid dissonance entirely. (You still have to work it off -- and may well wind up owing the Seneschal of the local Tether favors in return! You might get hit by dissonance from skirting the edge of your Superior's Word. The GM might smile evilly and start the next adventure with "Okay, Lily just got bit with dissonance from a resisted Geas. The next day, she gets a message: her Superior wants her to show this Servitor of the Game around town...") Dissonance isn't easy to get rid of! [...] >> Hey, it's what the Lilim themselves are walking around with, >> and what they trade with people! Why is it any less fair to >> let them take the risk ahead of time and get that blank check? > Because it's what Lilim *DO*, and they get a lot more say in what >they get in exchange for those. Not the Free ones! They've got 9 Geas/3's on them (which can add up to 3 Geas/6's...), and have utterly no say about what happens with them! >Besides - if someone knowingly, actively >ACCEPTS the Geas ahead of time, I'd be well inclined to say it's >self-inflicted and they don't get a Will roll...that's traditional, too, >and even allows for some trickery. The person doesn't *have* to make the Will roll... At 5:52 AM -0400 8/21/97, Adam Canning wrote: >At 9:19 AM -0400 8/20/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >>>5) Untested Geases don't count as Discord >< > >Check Miriam Kahn in Night Music. Her Gease 5 is listed as Discord even >though it hasn't been called in. Sounds like errata to me... (Hook/5, I could see listing as 'Discord,' since that's about the only place it fits well.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 19:18:07 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> [FLUFF] Diabolical Dealings at Gen Con At 10:45 AM -0400 8/21/97, IQJason@aol.com wrote: [...] >Now, one of the things that makes a con is the floor costumes. So, we wanted >to have Rick photographed in a funny outfit -- especially one that was >obviously inappropriate for him, getting a stand-in to wear the bag. And >what's more 'fantasy' goofy than a woman in a chain-mail bikini? > >In short...we had a Need. And guess who showed up to fulfill it? >Okay, McCoy...it was fairly sneaky making the deal when I wasn't around to >warn anyone. Just tell me how big a Geas we owe you now. And will that Basic >Training for IN cover it? Oh, I think I'll just wait and call it in later, when I've got a better idea about what you can *do* for me.... (I still gotta do more grousin' combat, so I can write the thing...) >PS -- You do wear it well, y'know. The paper bag? Thank you! At 3:45 PM -0400 8/21/97, Walter Milliken wrote: >I should have thought to get a Polaroid of it to scan >and put up on a Web page somewhere. Guess we'll have to wait for the >GenCon film to get developed.... Well, the camera went whirr and the film is ready to be sent off... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 08:52:13 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: IN> Lilim Geases In reply to: >For this reason I don't think that Lilim like to do 'honest jobs'; >they want to be paid in geases, not in cash. A Lilim who has a role as >a prostitute is already being paid for what she does, a Lilim who is a >social worker is also covered by that. On the other hand I can imagine >a Lilim in a role as a bartender doing the same thing as the social >worker in return for geases and might get really annoyed if someone >she sat and listened to one night comes back the next night with an >expensive bunch of flowers and box of chocolates. She doesn't want >presents, she wants her geas! In fact she must not accept the presents >or any favours from the geased individual until she has claimed her >geas, or its strength might be affected. I agree with you up to a point (the part about the flowers I don't agree with). Think about the order that Geases are inflicted. In the case of the Lilim Bartender. First, the Lilim must catch the customer's eyes to read their Need (or if they serve Andre, they can merely touch). Now, unless the victim has a Need "For someone to talk to" or similar, the bartender can listen all day long and get nothing for it! Let's consider that the victim does have that need. The Lil Bartender listens, gives some advice and whammo, the Geas is inflicted on the victim because the Lilim has satisfied their Need. Now if the victim comes back later with a box of chocolates and flowers, the Lilim can accept them graciuously but it makes no difference, the Geas is already there, the victim can't cancel it by paying in a way they choose after the fact. Geases are inflicted the moment the Lilim is able to satisfy theh Need of the victim. However, in the case of someone employing a chef, they wouldn't owe a Geas for getting a meal, unless they really *Needed* that meal. Anyway, that's my opinion. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 00:17:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> [FLUFF] Diabolical Dealings at Gen Con Wich issue will this be in?? I want this. Shadowcat P.S. Archbeth just hoe many list folk DO owe you Geasa?? All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #305 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.