From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Aug 26 03:32:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA00707 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 03:32:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA25822 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 22:59:57 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 22:59:57 -0500 Message-Id: <199708260359.WAA25822@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #312 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, August 25 1997 Volume 01 : Number 312 In this digest: Re: IN> Recorporation Re: IN> Why more superiors? Re: IN> Lilim Geases Re: IN> Jordi and Domestic Pets. Re: IN> Kyriosity Killed the Kat Re: IN> Asmodeus's Humanity Re: IN> Lilim Geases Re: IN> Kyriosity Killed the Kat Re: IN> How do roles work? Re: IN> Starting out with discord Re: IN> noise in the symphony Re: IN> A question of essence Re: IN> Jordi and Domestic Pets. Re: IN> Starting out with discord Re: IN> Re: (Another) Q about Lilim Re: IN> Demon becomes an angel? IN> New Corporeal Discord: Ichor IN> noise in the symphony IN> Re: Starting out with Discord Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... Re: IN> night music question... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 10:44:45 -0400 From: Sean Michael Whipkey Subject: Re: IN> Recorporation At 5:05 +0000 8/23/97, Walt Mazur wrote: >or take Discord--may I suggest Paranoia, so you don't lose you new Vessel? When I first saw that I thought, "What, you need six clones of your vessels?" <> Yeah, I know...I'm sorry.:) (Starts to think of Dom-I-NIC-2 and Gab-R-IEL-5 slugging it out against High Programmers in HEL sector, then goes nuts.) Okay, okay, I'll log off now. SeanMike - ---- Sean Michael Whipkey, smw4s@virginia.edu Weldon Cooper Center for Public Service, Publications Div. 804/924-4185 (or -4188) voicenet, 804/982-5536 fax http://www.virginia.edu/~cpserv/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 16:30:18 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Why more superiors? At 11:42 PM -0400 8/22/97, Gregory Littmann wrote: >> >> Night Music had 2 expansions, and 2 *new* Superiors, along with >> a bunch of material on drugs (to help out Fleurity, probably), >> etc. >> >> The next two probably don't have new Superiors, or other stuff >> was trimmed. >> >Other stuff must have been trimmed because both The Marches and Heaven and >Hell have two new superiors as well. Which brings me to wonder what got >trimmed? "Otherstuff"! Or, more accurately, "otherstuff" was never solicited for the books in the first place... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 16:24:42 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Geases At 4:01 PM -0400 8/23/97, David Edelstein wrote: >>>>On the other hand, Option 7 gets rid of both of those problems, and >is close to what you *meant*.... <<< > >What did you think I meant? I thought that you meant anyone could invoke a "hook," turning it into an official Geas (which would show up as Discord) but the subject wouldn't get dissonance/damage for resisting, and the invoker wouldn't take dissonance from a resistance. Which means it would no longer be an enforced (by dissonance or damage) compulsion, and therefore not a Geas... >Option 7 seems okay, though I'm not keen on introducing a new thing called >a "hook". I'd prefer to just call them Geases (or possibly "Lilim Geases") >whether enforceable or not. The problem is that the **concept** of the "hook," the *potental* for a Lilim to invoke a Geas, is *already there*! But it was *without a name*, which means that the "two kinds of Geases" problem makes it difficult to discuss the mechanics rationally. (I have decided that "untested Geas" is an *EEEEEVIL* phrase -- it confuses one as to what the actual mechanics are saying. I shall kill it and nail it to a wall.) A "hook" is a potential Geas. It is what a Lilim has in the interval between fulfilling a Need and actually invoking it as a Geas (forcing the Will roll). A Geas can be "invoked" or "inert"/"uninvoked"/"blank check". It will show as Discord until (invoked and) fulfilled. (Hooks don't; Superiors will probably see them, but nobody else.) A Lilim's Geas-after-fulfilling-a-Need can never be an inert Geas -- it is either a hook, or an invoked Geas. (Invoked Geases can no longer be traded.) The self-Geasa that Lilim can impose upon themselves can be either invoked right then, or inert. The Geases that Lilith imposes are inert to start with. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 10:54:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Dennis C Hwang Subject: Re: IN> Jordi and Domestic Pets. On Fri, 22 Aug 1997 zingaro@peak.org wrote: > > Quick question: > Do folks think that Jordi's word is 'Animals' or 'Animals that aren't humans'? Probably the latter...which brings up an interesting question. At what branch point in our ancestry did Jordi turn his back on us? After Australopithecus, Homo habilis, Homo erectus? - --Dennis dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu xenopathologist at large! Deathwalker for President: for some *real* health care reform. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 09:24:46 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Kyriosity Killed the Kat > I see Kyrios in the same way. Sometimes a person needs to do something > that they normally wouldn't do. Kyriotates give that push, when > necessary, and I think that's a good thing. The classic 'quantum leap' situation. Something needs to be done, 'Sam' arrives and fixes things, then zaps out. The person is way confused about the last few days, but everyone tells him how wonderful he was and he figures that the shock of events just jarred his memory a bit. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 16:46:54 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Asmodeus's Humanity On Sun, 24 Aug 1997, Kingsley Lintz wrote: > > > Asmodeus's Humanity Attunement - What really happens to a demon with this > > 1) Vessel/Body? My interpretation is that the demon's Vessel becomes a human > > body. This means that it would have the Body hits of a Mortal (NM, p. 31.) > I don't think so, actually...though, under the "To All Tests" > clause (which is almost as abused as the commerce clause of the US > Constitution, I think), I'd suggest that once he's taken about a dozen > hits, he has at least the option of falling down `dead' for a number of > hours equal to, say, his Celestial Forces...during which time he will be > dead to all tests. I'd let him have some limited awareness of his > surroundings, but no option to wake up early, and that awareness would be > very foggy. (Keep in mind, even having the Body Hits `of a mortal' is > likely to leave him more than the average mortal, since many Celestials > have more Corporeal Forces to start with...) This could get VERY inconveniant for the demon, if they deside to do an autopsy before the time is up. >;-) Just imagine having to lie there as your vesile is being opened up, and the various organs removed. How long WOULD it take for you to finaly die? ;-) Shadowcat ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 16:58:22 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Geases On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, Walt Mazur wrote: > On Mon, 25 Aug 1997 09:27:07 GMT+10, "Leathal Weapon" > <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> wrote: > > >>I think the fundamental problem is that little Geases have huge > >>penalties and big Geases have tiny penalties. The ability to make a > >>will roll out will help celestials, who are pretty likely to bounce > >>the Geas anyway, but mortals won't have a chance. > > > >I think the only point you are missing with this system (which does > >seem wierd to me in certain ways as well) is that although humans may > >not be able to resist geas/1's, the limit on what you can ask for a > >level 1 geas means that the average human will be able to get it done > >easily within the hour. > > IF he doesn't run into trouble: just a traffic accident could kill him by > delaying him for a few hours. > > IF someone doesn't sabotage him: Simply making a false police report > against him could get him held long enough to die. A patch I have thought about using for this is, you take damage for any WILLFULL delay in completeing the Geas. For example you wouldn't take damage for an auto Acident, or being stoped by the police, but you would for "Just wanting to finish this game," or "Chatting up the cashier." What do others think of this idea? Shadowcat ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 10:23:14 -0400 (EDT) From: IQJason@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Kyriosity Killed the Kat Walt Mazur: "Thinking of Night Music, suppose a Kyrio sees an addict about to shoot up? Well, take him over for a week and he may be over the worst of his withdrawal by then. If a Kyrio needs to deliver a package from one point to another, suppose he takes over a glassy-eyed commuter. Sure, he's a little later home than usual and is missing a little gas, but he's not really harmed--he was on automatic pilot anyway." Casca "What, you didn't quote me? I'm hurt... ;)" Honestly, I hadn't gotten your response yet. Still working on the different perspectives idea... I don't buy it, exactly, for most of the same reasons that have been posted. However... "Have you ever been in a situation where something needed to be done immediately, and if you had thought about it before you did it you wouldn't have done it? (The example of running into a burning building to save someone springs to mind.) The folks who have been in these situations say that they don't know why they did them, they just found themselves doing it because they knew it was the right thing to do -- but five minutes later, they realized just how much danger they had been in, and that knowledge freaks them out." *Vapulan light bulb goes BING* This is *exactly* what I was looking for. It seems to me that the Kyr/Shed common thread is "I didn't know I could do that..." Where the Shedim draw upon a mortal's internal reserves of selfishness to promote evil, the Kyriotates act, then cause the mortal to consider his/her OWN reserves of altruism to promote good. "If I could do it once, perhaps I could do it again..." Wow. Thanks to both of you. yours, - -J ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 97 19:04 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> How do roles work? > Now if you go and somehow mind-edit a townful of people >into believeing your fake history and working up a bunch of fake >records, you could probably justify a strong Role even though >you've lived little of the fictional 'life' presented. I've been assuming there's a "Song of Memory" somewhere that includes this ability, though it's probably not a Song that PCs normally get. Such a Song would be *really* useful for covering up exposure of celestials, as well as Role-setting. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:11:22 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Starting out with discord On Sun, 24 Aug 1997, Denis Sarrazin wrote: > Hi, Hello. > One of my players has submitted a character which has a fair bit of > discord initially. This has given him more point, of course. I'm > wondering what you guys think about characters that start with discord > (angels, to be more precise). This discord can be eventually removed > through proper methods, if I understand the rules correctly, which > would eventually leave him with a particularly powerful character. > The discord (for an angel) might also make it difficult for him to > interact with other PCs, due to the stigma attached to it? I would allow up to 3 points of discord (1 for a Malakite), but I would also want a story as to WHY this angel has it. I created a character for a campaign that had 1 point of anger due to an event that occured before the campaign began. He worked out rather well, and it gave the GM (Sean Renolds) a decent plot hook he could use later. I would say though that if your AA or DP lifted the discord you would have to repay the points you got from it. That a way you are still square, wit hte point total of the other folks. (Yes I am a serious GURPSter.) > I'm basically looking for opinions about this, as I'm curious on how > this will work out in game play, and whether it is fair or not. Well in Sean's campaign it worked out pretty well. It seemed fairly balanced compaid with the other characters. Shadowcat ******************************************************************************** The Great Spirit doesn't smile on those who dampen others and take the stars out of happy eyes ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 11:34:09 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> noise in the symphony On Aug 23, 7:24pm, Kingsley Lintz wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> noise in the symphony > > > On Aug 21, 7:23pm, Alex Helm wrote: > > > If a human is saved from harm or a natural death eg rescueing a mortal from > > > the path of an on rushing truck does this cause a disturbance in the > > > symphony? if so how much? > And Karakash replied simply; > > None. > Of curiosity..why not? Logically, keeping something IN that > should have just gone away should cause MORE noise than taking something > out before its time... You can view it as the way the Symphony is set up. It is 'sensitive' to certain things. One of those is celestial destruction, but not celestial meddling that avoids destruction. The Symphony can be viewed as what is 'within the rules' not as a monitor of fate/destiny. If a human is run over by the bus, that's fine since natural forces were at work. If a celestial saves the same person, the Symphony doesn't quiver at that since the continued existance of the mortal is not 'against the rules'. When a celestial pushes somebody in front of the bus, destruction has occurred with a celestial taint. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 11:40:17 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> A question of essence > Here is a fairly silly question, but I am actually interrested in > hearing the answers, so here goes. It is inspired by the movie gremlins 2. > So, and angel gets essence back at dawn. What is to stop an angel > catching a plane for half an hour and seeing the dawn again several hundred > miles to the west, and thus regain more essence? GM intervention in the form of a celestial bolt from the blue... Honestly, there are some things that are up to a GM and ridiculous rules raping falls in that category. Celstials regain essence about once every 24 hours. > Or, to take the more borderline (not so much munchkin) question... > What about arround the world in 80 days? How many essence would Mr > Fogg have build up if he were an angel? He did the trip in 81 days, and 80 > days at the same time, dependant upon your point of view (and the length of > the day). Whatever floats the GM's boat. I'd be inclined to allow the extra essence, myself. > When do angels and demons regain their essence if they are > above/below the arctic/antarctic circle? Or close, for that matter. About 24 hours from the _last_ time they got it. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 10:47:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Dennis C Hwang Subject: Re: IN> Jordi and Domestic Pets. On Fri, 22 Aug 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >IMO, Jordi would probably encourage > >spaying in these instances, since cats aren't exactly an endangered > >species, and besides, they've been so domesticated they're probably > >seen as "Too human" for the likes of the AA of Animals. Of course, he > >wouldn't like seeing any animal 'interfered with' without good > >reason. > > In a situation like that... Hm! Something that can conflict Jordi! > On the one hand, he must be concerned with survival of the fittest, > so if cats are out-competing the native wildlife, So Be It. Hmmm. Given that at least one of his invocation modifiers involves preservation of endangered species, I probably wouldn't ascribe this perspective to him. After all, a lot of species are endangered (or have gone extinct) due to the introduction of exotics. I'd be more inclined to see him as a protector of biodiversity than adhering to the "survival of the fittest" idea, especially since the latter is a (human) oversimplification of evolutionary theory... > On the other hand, cats didn't get there naturally! Humans brought > them, so perhaps the optimal thing would be to kill off all the > cats in Australia (!!). There are folks currently engaged in exactly this practice in New Zealand. Servants of Jordi, maybe? ;) > On another hand (this is the good thing about being a Kyrio -- you > never run out of hands), one works with the situation one has. > Compromise between allowing the natives to be wiped out by > the (unnaturally supplied) superior predator might well be to > spay and neuter, which might at least slow down the carnage > enough to give the natives a chance to evolve... Maybe. I'd be tempted to have him simply write it off to Yet Another Instance Of Humans Mucking Up The Natural Order Of Things, and try to return the environment to its original ecosystem. - --Dennis, aka Imago, Kyriotate of Jordi dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu xenopathologist at large! Deathwalker for President: for some *real* health care reform. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 11:48:48 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Starting out with discord > One of my players has submitted a character which has a fair bit of > discord initially. This has given him more point, of course. I'm > wondering what you guys think about characters that start with discord > (angels, to be more precise). This discord can be eventually removed > through proper methods, if I understand the rules correctly, which > would eventually leave him with a particularly powerful character. > The discord (for an angel) might also make it difficult for him to > interact with other PCs, due to the stigma attached to it? > > I'm basically looking for opinions about this, as I'm curious on how > this will work out in game play, and whether it is fair or not. A _large_ amount of discord should be discouraged. The stigma comes from the fact that ever-watchful eyes (on BOTH sides of the fence) focus on celestials with a lot of discord. Such beings are not trusted and their every flaw and mistake is scrutinized. Their shame shines like a beacon in the celestial realm and even perceptive non-celestials can be able to spot them (in special cases). The most discord I would allow is 6, and that only for certain character concepts. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 09:08:22 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Re: (Another) Q about Lilim > >>>>In general, I agree with you, but just the existance of the > >Role does not preclude getting a Geas as well. A Lilim with a > >Doctor role doesn't have an agreement with every person they > >meet on the street who might need medical attention. "Hey > >man, you look like you've been shot! Want some help?" On the > >other hand, as you say, if you working in a hospital, you > >have already been recompensed for your efforts when a patient > >shows up.<<< > > > >I guess that would preclude the trick that Lilim of Fate used, collecting > >Geases on babies with her Role as a maternity ward nurse, then. > > > >- -David > > Mmm, not necessarily. > > For one, I think that the pay you get as a materny ward nurse is > significantly less than one could get as a private nurse/nanny looking > after only one or two children and doing mostly the same thing. Actually, David is right. If the Lilim agrees to do a job for a certain amount of money (even if the amount sucks), this doesn't count a favor... it's a _job_. > For two, I don't think that the pay fully recompenses the favor > done by health care personnell. I think most people would agree that the > value of a human life is more than the Emergency Room doctor gets paid for > saving it. Once again, the value of the services was decided when the Lilim agreed to do the job for a certain amount of money. What she does with the money and the amount are irrelevant. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 97 12:57 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Demon becomes an angel? >I'm in the process of starting an In Nomine game on Compuserve, and >one of the player submitted a rather unusual and interesting >character. Basically, her PC used to be a Demon, but then something >happened and she now only does good, following the advice of an angel. >What exactly does that make her character? A demon still? A >renegade? An angel? Depends on the state of Redemption -- it is possible (but not likely) that a demon can do good by choice. This is pretty much sure to make the demon a Renegade -- no Prince really wants his servitors doing good deeds, at least without some deeper motivation for evil behind the scenes. Only a Free Lilim could get away with this regularly, and even she'll be Renegade as soon as any other demon observes her behavior and reports it. (Or they might just do a bit of blackmail. Or both....) If the character has been Redeemed by an Archangel, then they're an angel. Depending on how long it's been since Redemption, they may still have Discords, and might not have the full set of rites and attunements - -- there's basically a probation period. See the box on Redemption in the IN book. > How would one create such as character, then? Three basic choices: - Renegade demon, as described in the book. They may not officially be renegade yet (i.e., their Prince and Asmodeus don't know), but this won't be true for long.... They may or may not be seeking Redemption -- they might be trying to make it on their own (not generally a good idea, though). - Probationary angel: build as normal angel but can have some Discord, or lack some normal features (Rites and Attunements). Will be closely watched by her Superior and Dominic. - "Regular" angel: only with a backstory of having been Redeemed (just like some demons have Falling in their backstories). >What does the process of converting demons to angels normally involve, >if it is even possible to do so? It takes an Archangel to do it -- the book has a description of the basics somewhere. > What about a renegade: can they do >good if they used to be a demon? Renegades are *still* demons, just not in good standing. Except for Shedim (who are pretty much forced to do evil), *any* demon can perform good deeds routinely. But it will quickly get you made Renegade (or dead), since this is contrary to the will of Lucifer and the Princes. > Would an angel actually "use" and >trust one such? Use, yes, under carefully-controlled conditions. Trust, usually not. Renegades are still demons, and still warped, by angelic standards. Some angelic resonances are sufficient to determine whether a Renegade can be trusted, at least for the moment. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 12:39:54 -0500 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: IN> New Corporeal Discord: Ichor Well, here's a new Discord I'd been thinking about for awhile, and decided to write up. Tell me what ya think? Corporeal Discord: Ichor. Whatever it is that flows in your veins, it ain't blood. A Celestial with the Ichor Discord has all his vessels' body fluids oddly twisted. Any character with Ichor can never give or recieve blood transfusions, and has a reaction penalty equal to the level of the Discord, should it become apparent that the character has funky blood/saliva/tears/etc. This is not an appropriate discord for Humans, though undead may have it. Ichor/1 Tastes Strange A celestial with this level of Ichor will have fluids with an odd taste. Any cursory medical inspection of the body fluids will reveal them to be something other than what they should be. In addition, since saliva will bechanged too, the character will suffer a -3 to any Taste Roll he makes. The character will not become used to the taste with time. Ichor/2 Looks Strange The body fluids have an strange color Black, Green, and Blue are popular colors. It is obvious to any person that your blood or saliva is strange, tears will tint your eyes a different color, but the effects will not be noticeable unless you actually start crying. Ichor/3 Smells Strange The body fluids have a wierd smell, one that can be easily detected by making a Smell roll. Could smell like lilacs, rotting sewage, sulfur, or even cheese. Ichor/4 Feels Strange The body fluids feel odd. They may be viscous, silky, sticky, grainy, or stinging to the touch. These properties will also be pretty obvious to sight. Ichor/5 Sound Strange It bubbles, it hisses, it whistles. it snaps, crackles, or pops. Once out of the body, Body Fluids make noises clearly audible to anyone within two yards. Ichor/6 Motion Body fluids, once out of the body, move independently of your will. They may send out flailing tendrils, or move as viscous globs. It's very unnerving to watch, and requires carefull attention to bandaging to stop bleeding. All of the above functions are cumulative, a character with Ichor/4 will have the effects of Ichor/3, Ichor/2, and Ichor/1. Perhaps crunchy blue blood that smells and tastes like Drano. Ichor is inconvenient during fights, as any wound will show it. Above level 2, even bruises look funky. Ichor also tends to react badly with all but the most innocuous of substances. An Ichored character who is subjected to any drug not explicitily tailored to his brand of body fluids, must make a Strength Roll at a penalty equal to the level of the discord, or take half the check digit of the failed roll in damage. = http://www.io.com/~beholder ===================== nofori@pop3.utoled.edu === Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Legion, Party of six thousand. Smoking or Non? ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 11:58:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Stacy Stroud Subject: IN> noise in the symphony John Karakash wrote: >On Aug 21, 7:23pm, Alex Helm wrote: >> Subject: IN> noise in the symphony >> If a human is saved from harm or a natural death eg rescueing a mortal from >> the path of an on rushing truck does this cause a disturbance in the >> symphony? if so how much? > > None. I'd always wondered about that myself, especially since the first example of angelic intervention we get (in "Bright Dream") features Nicole telling her new servant "I saved your life. I changed your Fate." Here's my explanation of *why* this is true (i.e., why killing causes disturbance but saving lives does not). It may or may not square with the official SJG explanation (if any), but it does square pretty well with the Judeo-Christian tradition. I offer it for everyone's consideration. Before we proceed, we must first recognize that there is a difference between the Symphony as originally written and the Symphony as it is currently being played. The Symphony as God wrote it is perfect and harmonious, lacking such concepts as evil, pain, sadness, and death. At present, however, thanks to the misuse of human free will (in Eden and afterward), the Symphony is being played with broken instruments. Because humans and their freedom are built in to the Symphony, their actions do not cause disturbance even when they contradict God's original plan; however, the fact remains that concepts like Death were not included in the original composition. Obviously, then, angelic intervention which causes death is *seriously* against the Plan, and so causes major disturbance. *Preventing* death, on the other hand, tends to promote the original Symphony over its sin-filled derivative, and so is perfectly OK in *most* circumstances. However, God has been improvising within the parameters set by human actions, in order to insure that the Symphony still concludes as He wishes. As a result, some things that were not originally part of the Symphony are now necessary. For example, there are people whose Destinies involve opposition to great evil -- but since evil wasn't part of the original composition, obviously those Destinies have been added in later as part of the Creator's contingency plan. It's possible, then, that some deaths are now preDestined, even though death was not part of the original Symphony. Christians would place Jesus' death in that category, for example. That allows us gamers to use "Edith Keeler"-type plotlines on occasion, without requiring everyone to figure disturbance for each and every life saved by angelic intervention. Thoughts? Stacy Stroud sstroud@uky.campus.mci.net P.S. I tend to interpret the "angels not being part of the Symphony" thing as "not part of the *earthly* Symphony." Angels have no natural connection to the corporeal realm, as demonstrated by their need for Vessels, and so cause disturbance when they manifest and act in that realm. However, they do seem to be part of the larger Symphony -- indeed, a rather tightly-knit and integral part, given the resonance and dissonance concepts. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 12:43:44 -0500 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: IN> Re: Starting out with Discord > >Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 22:02:10 GMT >From: dsarrazin@cyberus.ca (Denis Sarrazin) >Subject: IN> Starting out with discord > >Hi, > >One of my players has submitted a character which has a fair bit of >discord initially. This has given him more point, of course. I'm >wondering what you guys think about characters that start with discord >(angels, to be more precise). This discord can be eventually removed >through proper methods, if I understand the rules correctly, which >would eventually leave him with a particularly powerful character. >The discord (for an angel) might also make it difficult for him to >interact with other PCs, due to the stigma attached to it? > >I'm basically looking for opinions about this, as I'm curious on how >this will work out in game play, and whether it is fair or not. How much is a "Fair bit?" Yes, taking Discord at character creation will give a starting character more points to spend on other things. It's your job as GM to make this a sufficiently unattractive option. My suggestions: If the character in question Isn't Outcast already, remember that, unless the Discord was directly affixed to him by a powerful entity, he had to convert 1-3 points of Dissonance for each level of Discord, probably on the high end of that range. Ask the player why the character is a Favored Servitor, and allowed to operate autonomously by his Superior if he screws up so badly. Get a good reason why Joe Discordant hasn't been recalled back to Heaven because Earthly concerns seem too difficult for him. Superiors are Angels too, and don't have to be above reacting badly to Discordant Angels either. Yes, Discord can be gotten rid of, but it requires celestials to petition their Superiors to remove it (I think it should be much easier for Humans, but that's a different thread.) Discord is a choice a celestial makes when he knows he's accumilating Dissonance quicker than he can work it off. It's embracing a drastic change in the character's soul to avoid Outcasting or Falling. Imagine your reaction ifsomeone who worked for you showed up at your door covered in blood and asking "Would you mind terribly if I borrowed your car?" At the very least, I'd want to know why said person is covered in blood, and it would still require a pretty good reason for me to let that person borrow my vehicle. Any Superior you ask to remove your self-inflicted Discord will want to know why you have the Discord in the first place, and what you have done to merit its removal. A Discordant character should his problem become known, will also be carefully watched by local entities of Judgement, and find that his Superior may be getting less-than favorablereports about his performance in the field. Finally, yes, it does make for a more powerful character at character creation. But when the other characters do get to that level of power, they won't have the Discord to deal with. If you don't feel it's fair, make it worse. = http://www.io.com/~beholder ===================== nofori@pop3.utoled.edu === Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Legion, Party of six thousand. Smoking or Non? ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 13:14:16 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? > >Why make them more vulnerable? Do we really want to be widening that > >gap? I can see the problem, in that humans will have more hits than > >many Celestials with low power vessels. > > The basic idea is so that it's possible to kill most humans with > one good shot, about 10 Body. As my idea below would do. > >Why not change it the other way - since there have been complaints of > >celestials being harder to remove than cars, why not give humans > >vessels equal to Corp forces, and change the formula to Vessel times > >Strength. Humans would be about 5 hit points on average, while a > >celestial with vessel one would be 6 hit points on average, up to 72 > >for the toughest starting Celestial. > > That might require a change to (un)holy pistol and bullet mechanics. > Probably there are other ripples out there... It sounds ok, but > having just gotten surprised by the NM mechanic... Trust me, the rule can be looked over. I'm getting pretty good at doing retrofit changes to systems, having fooled with GURPS for years. I'm already working on a better d666 system, for personal use. Given the small amount of rules out now, it would be better to do any fixes you want to now, rather than letting them fester. Assuming you want to change things. > >> Or maybe the body for a host should be Kyrio's Strength x > >> Host's Forces. That's simple, and somewhat close on average to > >> the original Strength*(CorF+Vessel). It'll make Kyrios in > >> Humans tougher, though. > > > >Kyrio's are already pretty powerful - IMO, more powerful than many > >Malakim. Multiple vessels, unpredictable presence, no Trauma (unless > >their preplanning sucks eggs), etc. > > I think you want to toughen the host up somewhat. The old super > strength of possession bit. Then give them a way to invest spare forces at a slightly lower rate. > >Again, only covers part of it. The rationale smacks of AD&D hit > >points... > > I agree, there's a problem. Personally, I don't like HP much at all - had I written it, the system would have come out as a proportional damage system. But I didn't write it... > >That's the other reason I like my idea - under the current system, a > >Kyrio inhabiting a turtle is just as nible as one inhabiting a cat. > >In fact, IIRC, they would have the same speed. [They would - I just > >checked. Took me long enough to find it. Note to self - rewrite > >rules for In Nomine, send to SJ. Will beat-down occur?] It > >takes too much individuality out of vessels to do it the other way. > > Check out Wolf vs. Dog on page 191: Dogs run at 10 x Ag but Wolves > at 12 x Ag. IOW, the GM can set the Agility multiple as appropriate. Okay, good point, but avoids the larger problem. Do you want to rationalize why Harry, Kyriotate of Jordi, is just as able to react in his 3-toed sloth host as in his hummingbird? Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com I seem to have forgotten what families are actually for...Families seem to be a form of SM relationships without safewords. - Neil Hudson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 18:43:19 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... At 10:34 PM -0400 8/23/97, C. J. Hunter wrote: >Whew! > >Just glad to be Ofanim, with a fairly straitforward resonance.... But isn't it weird that Ofanim don't get any bonus to Driving? [Darn it K.K., get away from my account!] emccoy@nh.ultranet.com, Uppity Wynch http://brie.bmsc.washington.edu/people/merritt/books/Eye_of_Argon.html "rumoured to contain hoards of plunder, and many young wenches" Mike [falsetto]: "We're tired of these degrading patriachical slurs! From now on we demand to be called 'wynchys.'" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 18:48:29 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> night music question... At 4:08 PM -0400 8/24/97, NemesisXVI@aol.com wrote: >Pertaining to the Night Music supplement: > >What are the opinions of Litheroy and Alaemon regarding the Austin situation >and Furfur? Hm. At a guess... Litheroy: "This tune is knowledge, and knowledge must not be suppressed -- though Furfur certainly should be." Alaemon: "Who let that idiot find the tune in the first place?? Get it *back* and *hide* it!" - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #312 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.