From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Aug 26 23:25:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA02231 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 23:25:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA20765 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 21:24:22 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 21:24:22 -0500 Message-Id: <199708270224.VAA20765@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #314 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, August 26 1997 Volume 01 : Number 314 In this digest: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #312 IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #312 IN> Lilim Geases Re: IN> A question of essence Re: IN> Jordi and Domestic Pets. Re: IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #312 Re: IN> Lilim and geases Re: IN> Character idea: Rolemaker Re: IN> Asmodeus's Humanity Re: IN> A Question of Essence pt 2 Re: IN> Lilim Rules Question Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... Re: IN> Smut (and nothing but) Re: Sleep Discord (Re: IN> In Nomine) Re: IN> Lilim and geases Re: IN> Kyriosity Killed the Kat Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? Re: IN> Lilim Geases Re: IN> Hire Purchase of Lilim Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... Re: IN> Songs and Celestial Resonances Re: IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #312 Re: IN> Lilith's Potence Re: IN> Starting out with discord Re: IN> Lilim Geases Re: IN> Songs and Celestial Resonances Re: IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #312 Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? Re: IN> Lilim and geases Re: IN> Jordi and Domestic Pets. Re: IN> An angel with discord ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 06:37:19 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... From: Elizabeth McCoy >But isn't it weird that Ofanim don't get any bonus to Driving? < That's very simple. Ofanim do the navigating because the Malakim won't let them drive. Adam Canning ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 06:37:29 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #312 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" > Actually, David is right. If the Lilim agrees to do a job for a certain amount of money (even if the amount sucks), this doesn't count a favor... it's a _job_.< Lilim of Gluttony as Chefs? Since that seems to get you a favour [Geas 2, Hook 2, etc] without them having to have seen you or for you to have percieved a desire for food. Adam Canning ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 06:36:53 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #312 From: Shadowcat > A patch I have thought about using for this is, you take damage for any WILLFULL delay in completeing the Geas. For example you wouldn't take damage for an auto Acident, or being stoped by the police, but you would for "Just wanting to finish this game," or "Chatting up the cashier." What do others think of this idea? < That will do fine. A thought on a related subject is that if you intend to arrange for the target to be unable to do the task in the time appropriate to the Geas level then it will require a higher level Geas since the task was not reasonable for the time allowed. Wether this would occur for things like traffic accidents I'm not sure. Adam Canning ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 06:37:35 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Lilim Geases From: Elizabeth McCoy >The problem is that the **concept** of the "hook," the *potental* for a Lilim to invoke a Geas, is *already there*! But it was *without a name*,< The term the rules use IN p149 Game Mechanics paragraph 4 is Favour [or Favor if you like American spellings] ie "A level 1 favour is minor, almost triflingand breaks none of the target's moral codes." Adam Canning And now in a similar manner to movies Euro Gen Con will open several weeks later than the American version. There is as far as I know no In Nomine event planned there. This is mostly due to the fact that the European RPGA's Tournament director didn't see the rulesfor IN early enough to ask me to write a tournament. Any one who wants one next year should nag him at the tournament desk. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 97 07:19:09 -0400 From: dwood@skipjack.bluecrab.org Subject: Re: IN> A question of essence Previously, from the desktop of ehp... > Here is a fairly silly question, but I am actually interrested in >hearing the answers, so here goes. It is inspired by the movie gremlins 2. Some people might say that was your mistake right there... > So, and angel gets essence back at dawn. What is to stop an angel >catching a plane for half an hour and seeing the dawn again several hundred >miles to the west, and thus regain more essence? I'd say nothing, as it's the same sunrise. Okay, you want to quash this habit right quick? Just let a player character think of suggesting this, and watch their faces as you spring the prepared answer on them: They may catch the sunrise at the airport, be reassured by its warmth and beauty, then hop that flight west on a good, fast plane. Now, the reassurance of the sun fades - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 09:17:11 -0500 From: rbeall@fdldotnet.com (Grim88) Subject: Re: IN> Jordi and Domestic Pets. >Probably the latter...which brings up an interesting question. At what >branch point in our ancestry did Jordi turn his back on us? After >Australopithecus, Homo habilis, Homo erectus? Well, As I just recently saw The Prophecy, I reckon to say it was when God gave humans Souls...talking monkeys....not in Jordi's book they ain't. (Bad grammer intentional) Maybe he led the Second War in Heaven, not Gabriel. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 09:00:33 -0400 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: Re: IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #312 At 06:37 AM 8/26/97 -0400, you wrote: >From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" >> Actually, David is right. If the Lilim agrees to do a job >for a certain amount of money (even if the amount sucks), this doesn't >count a favor... it's a _job_.< > >Lilim of Gluttony as Chefs? Since that seems to get you a favour [Geas 2, >Hook 2, etc] without them having to have seen you or for you to have >percieved a desire for food. That doesn't work -- the Lilim has to look a person in the eye and percieve a Need before she can fulfill it... At least, that's the way I always read the passage. (I don't have my IN book with me to double-check at the moment...) -Loki - -- Kirt A. Dankmyer --- Academic Computing Specialist http://www.wfu.edu/~dankmyka/ -- (910) 759-4202 -- PGP public key available. For the Snark _was_ a Boojum, you see. --Lewis Carroll ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 08:53:37 -0400 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and geases >I very much like the deal with the devil idea and it gets over the concept >of the maternity nurse which I really wasn't keen on. I mean, if you can >geas a baby like that then presumably you can geas a dog to kill its owner >etc etc -- got to be similar intelligence. That wasn't a fair deal in any >sense of the word and I think Lilim should have to work harder for their >geases. YMMV. 'What do you mean I have to kill someone because you mixed up >some baby food 30 years ago?' This is no different from the fact that someone can become Hellsworn no matter how screwed up they are mentally at the time -- including, I'll note, children. I understand your preference for a concious decision to enter into a Geas, but te unwilling Geas concept fits the In Nomine universe quite well, IMHO. -Loki - -- Kirt A. Dankmyer --- Academic Computing Specialist http://www.wfu.edu/~dankmyka/ -- (910) 759-4202 -- PGP public key available. For the Snark _was_ a Boojum, you see. --Lewis Carroll ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 97 11:54 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Character idea: Rolemaker >How about a character who takes the Role the 'long way' and, upon growing >up, gets a job in the local government whereby he has the capability to >manufacture Roles for other Celestials? Someone who can assign SSNs and >birth certificates, for example... > >Or have them work for the Federal Witness Relocation Program, where not >only can a person be created on paper from scratch, but also could be >used to protect Soldiers and their families. That's more or less the way I figure things work. (I believe Night Music actually includes a character or two who fit this model.) Of course, you don't need a Role to do all this -- almost all of these things are done via computer now, so all you need is access to the systems (usually physical access, to be able to get the special forms some documents are printed on). Most celestials don't have problems getting into locked government offices at night. And Kyrios of Jean can simply take over the computer system and enter any data they want. The tricky part of Roles isn't the government paperwork to substantiate it, but the *people* -- as I see it, a high-level Role requires other people to remember you. A Role/6 would withstand an FBI Top Secret security clearance check, while a Role/1 (which I view basically as being a driver's license and an SSN) probably wouldn't stand up to even a superficial investigation by the local cops -- the documents may not be backed by appropriate computer records, or would fail a simple cross-check. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 17:43:38 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Asmodeus's Humanity On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, Kingsley Lintz wrote: > Besides - how often do they get a good autopsy going within a > couple hours? [MaBarry: "Not in any city worth a Tether *I*'ve been in"] > Now, I'd have to grant my `experience' in the matter comes mostly from > movies, but it seems like the police like to futz around a little first, > and that only starts when they find you... I have known them to start an autopsy as quickly as an 1 1/2 after death in Chicago. Cat > All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 97 15:08 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> A Question of Essence pt 2 > Or, how long after one moves time zone should an angel take to adapt >to the new dawn time? A drift perhaps of one hour per day, lengthening the >time between essence regeneration to 25 hours each day that passes till the >time zone and the angel are in allignment... Treat it like jet lag in humans, maybe... make 'em rest a day or they don't get *any* new essence in the new location, if they moved too far, too quickly.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 97 15:01 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Rules Question [Leath:] > Does it mean that the Lilim adds their >Celestial forces to the Perception roll to get the geas, or does it >mean that their Celestial Forces are added to the difficulty of the >victim to resist the geas (like the initial level of Geas being >subtracted byt he will roll)? Or does it mean something else >entirely? Thanks in advance. I'd say it affects the Lilim's roll, not the victim's. [Walt Mazur:] >But to take the extreme case, suppose the Lilim has 6 celestial forces and >perception of 12. That makes her base roll 18, so her check digit will be >7-12. Plus any essence spent! Does she really get that level of Geas and >will reduction, or always 6? For most other things, I'd let the 7-12 stand, >but Geases are so powerful, I think I'd limit it at 6. A GM call, I >suppose. I'd probably allow the Lilim to pick up a couple of Geases summing to the check digit. But I wouldn't allow any individual Geas above 6, by that method or through aggregation of favors. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 14:58:17 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... On Aug 25, 6:43pm, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... > At 10:34 PM -0400 8/23/97, C. J. Hunter wrote: > >Whew! > > > >Just glad to be Ofanim, with a fairly straitforward resonance.... > > But isn't it weird that Ofanim don't get any bonus to Driving? That's a not very clearly worded section in the Ofanim description. The resonance mentions 'any roll against Agility itself or an associated skill'. It should specifically include Driving and specifically disallow Agility skills like Throwing. If it looks like motion and feels like motion, it's probably motion. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 10:28:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Dennis C Hwang Subject: Re: IN> Smut (and nothing but) On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 5:55 PM -0400 8/23/97, Adam Canning wrote: > >From: Elizabeth McCoy > >>(Though all those "gynocologist" scenes really really shouldn't > >be watched by anyone under the age of getting a pap smear...) > >< > > > >So being male, I should never watch them since I'm never going to be old > >enough to get a pap smear? > > Well, once you're over the age of consent for gender-surgery... Not that this has anything to do with anything, but why bother? In this neck of the woods, men get Pap smears not uncommonly. (Anal Pap smears, that is.) They're used for the same purpose... - --Dennis dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu xenopathologist at large! Deathwalker for President: for some *real* health care reform. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 15:02:27 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: Sleep Discord (Re: IN> In Nomine) On Aug 26, 3:07pm, Leathal Weapon wrote: > Subject: Re: Sleep Discord (Re: IN> In Nomine) > Elizabeth replied with: > > > At 8:25 PM -0700 8/24/97, The Herder Family wrote: > > > > > Sleep: The victim must sleep for the level of discord times 2 hours > > >in the last 24. If he doesn't, he must suffer the level subtracted for > > >a number of hours equal to the level. > > > > > > Example: Leon, an angel has Sleep/3. He must sleep 6 hours from one > > >sunrise (Sunset for demons) to another. He didn't, so he suffers -3 to > > >all his stats for 3 hours. > > > > I'd make the length of time much longer than a mere 1-6 hours for > > the penalty... The penalty should last until the celestial has time to sleep, however long that takes. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 19:53:08 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and geases On Mon, 25 Aug 1997 19:03:13 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >>The Lilim gets two will rolls, at invokation and one CD days later. > >The *subject* gets two Will rolls (the Lilim only ever makes >a Perception roll). The first is Will minus Geas Level. The second >is straight Will. Thanks. Doing email too late. Of course, I meant to say that the Lilim gets two chances to invoke the Geas vs. Will rolls as you say. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 19:53:05 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Kyriosity Killed the Kat On Mon, 25 Aug 1997 10:23:14 -0400 (EDT), IQJason@aol.com wrote: >This is *exactly* what I was looking for. >It seems to me that the Kyr/Shed common thread is "I didn't know I could do >that..." Where the Shedim draw upon a mortal's internal reserves of >selfishness to promote evil, the Kyriotates act, then cause the mortal to >consider his/her OWN reserves of altruism to promote good. "If I could do it >once, perhaps I could do it again..." The one problem with this view is that Kyrio hosts have no memory of what happened. Shedim share their hosts with their host's souls, which may be why they're hard to Djinn-track (and presumably track similarly). But Kyrios send their hosts into dreamland. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 10:26:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Dennis C Hwang Subject: Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > Okay, good point, but avoids the larger problem. Do you want to > rationalize why Harry, Kyriotate of Jordi, is just as able to react > in his 3-toed sloth host as in his hummingbird? Presumably for the same reason that a Str 8 celestial in a little girl's body can outwrestle a Str 4 celestial in a big bruiser's. This already shows that vessels (and, by extension, hosts) aren't bound by the constraints of the type of physical body. Personally, I kinda like the surreal image of a high-agility Kyriotate inhabiting a Galapagos tortoise. Imagine the sheer disbelief of the unscrupulous collector as the huge reptile suddenly bursts into a full-out charge and scales the nearest outcropping for safety. - --Dennis, aka Imago, Kyriotate of Jordi dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu xenopathologist at large! Deathwalker for President: for some *real* health care reform. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 16:37:04 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Geases At 6:37 AM -0400 8/26/97, Adam Canning wrote: >From: Elizabeth McCoy >>The problem is that the **concept** of the "hook," > the *potental* for a Lilim to invoke a Geas, > is *already there*! > > But it was *without a name*,< > >The term the rules use IN p149 Game Mechanics paragraph 4 is Favour [or >Favor if you like American spellings] ie "A level 1 favour is minor, almost >triflingand breaks none of the target's moral codes." I think that "favor," even if that was what it was supposed to mean, has a few too many other connotations. And anyway, "Hook" sounds better... Lilim getting hooks into other people's souls... Isn't that scarier than "Lilim getting people to owe them favors"? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 97 15:48 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Hire Purchase of Lilim >> AAs and DPs can basically do anything, at the discretion of the >> GM. They *make* celestials. > >Yes, but that's assuming that Lilith has the nigh infinite power that >you (as GM) would give her. That is *far* from the default >assumption. While she's probably not the most powerful Demon Prince in raw power terms, she's still pretty powerful by the standards of the celestial-in-the-street. I assume that AAs and DPs can do just about anything to the average celestial except change their basic nature (Choir/Band and angel/demonhood) -- that has to be voluntary (or at least due to the celestial's own actions). But I generally assume that AAs and DPs can rip any normal celestial Force from Force, if desired, impose or remove Discords, Attunements, and Rites at will, and other such actions. I.e., the only creature that can normally resist the actions of a Superior is another Superior. Lilith, while originally a human (or something rather similar, though it's not impossible she was actually some sort of celestial in a Role), has been given power by Lucifer. She may not be as directly powerful as the other DPs, but she's owed a *lot* of favors, and knows how to use them. I'd still give her all the usual perks of being a DP, relative to messing with ordinary celestials, since she can create them (actually Lilim) at will. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 16:59:08 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... At 12:39 AM -0400 8/26/97, Casca wrote: >Speaking of Lilim and Kyrios, what happens when a Lilim does a favor for >a Kyrio -- not realizing that it IS a Kyrio, of course -- and then tries >to call in the Geas once the Kyrio has left for another host? > >Does the Geas simply fail, because it was the Kyrio that was Geased, not >the host? The Geas-hook... #1: won't lead to the host, it will lead to the Kyrio. (Or the nearest bit of it or something.) #2: (assuming she didn't use the hook to trackdown) won't invoke at all. It will remain inert and the host will be going, "huh? do I know you?" How's that? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 17:01:51 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Songs and Celestial Resonances At 4:11 AM -0400 8/26/97, Thomas Davidson wrote: >On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> It occured to me, reading the stuff about how the Song of Motion is >> faster than most Ofanim, that perhaps celestials have a *bonus* to >> Songs that are akin to their Resonance? >> >> Say, add the appropriate Forces to either the skill roll or the >> Check Digit of the Song? (I like adding them to the Check Digit, >> I think.) >> >> So Ofanim would add Corporeal Forces for the Corporeal Song of >> Motion, Ethereal Forces for the Ethereal Song of Motion, and >> Celestial Forces for the Celestial Song of Motion. [etc.] >> That sound like a way to keep particular Choirs/Bands "the best", >> even when there are Songs out there that duplicate resonances? >> > >Yeah, I have to agree that rule was weird. And while your idea at the >surface may seem great on the surface, I'm concerned the effect this would >have on game balance. Just think what havoc a Kyrio with a Song of >Possession could do. Yeah. Ain't it great? Though it would probably only boost the length of time it could stay, as per Song of Possession. >And then what about demons? Impudites and Djinn >were the only band you mentioned. What do they have to tip the scales in >their direction? I could think of a good "equivalency" Song for their resonance in about 15 seconds or less. I'd assume that each Choir/Band would have an equivalent Song somewhere -- they're just hypothetical at the moment, most of 'em. :-p :-) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 15:10:45 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #312 On Aug 26, 6:37am, Adam Canning wrote: > Subject: IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #312 > From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" > > Actually, David is right. If the Lilim agrees to do a job > for a certain amount of money (even if the amount sucks), this doesn't > count a favor... it's a _job_.< > > Lilim of Gluttony as Chefs? Since that seems to get you a favour [Geas 2, > Hook 2, etc] without them having to have seen you or for you to have > percieved a desire for food. Yup. Though I personally require that the meal be targeted toward a single person and the Lilim has to be around to accept the Geas. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 17:10:26 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilith's Potence At 1:14 AM -0400 8/26/97, David Edelstein wrote: >I know this is gonna get Elizabeth riled up, but.... Maybe, maybe... >>>>This all makes sense, but one huge loophole remains: Lilith is a Demon >Prince: She can impose fifty Geas/6's for no reason at all if she wants.<<< > >I don't think so-- if Lilith can do that, so could other Princes (yes, >Geases are Lilith's specialty, but I don't think she even invented them), >and if other Princes could slap Geases on angels at will, they would. Maybe it's not worth the trouble? Hm.... I would assume it's *easier* for Lilith to do it, since it *is* her resonance... But that doesn't mean that it's *easy*, if you take my meaning. One does not want to waste one's strength with force, when one could get what one wanted so easily with a little bribery... >>>>Since her Word is Freedom, it would be out of character; but acting in >character, she can basically do anything she wants with her Lilim, barring >a truly Bright Lilim with an Archangel's protection--even then it better be >an old powerful Archangel, not a newbie like Laurence--Lilith is nearly as >old as Yves.<<< > >Oh, I don't agree that Lilith is necessarily more powerful than >Laurence...or any other Archangel. My take on Lilith has always been that >she started out as a mortal; Lucifer elevated her to the status of a >Superior, but she's still inherently weaker than born celestials. (I'm not >saying she's necessarily the weakest Superior of all....but I seriously >doubt she'd want to go toe-to-toe with Laurence, Heaven's greatest >demon-slayer.) Hmph. *Andre* wouldn't want to go toe-to-toe with Laurence, and he's one of the eldest of Princes! Kobal probably wouldn't like it either. Lilith, like some of the other Princes, simply isn't oriented towards brute force combat. She can't be all-over "weaker" than the other Princes, at least, or else she'd have been dogfood centuries ago. (Can't have it both ways -- either she's got enough personal power to defend herself, or she's got Lucy backing her up and *nobody* wants to cross her...) She might be willing to tackle some of the others, though, if she had to. (Brute force fighting is *so* gauche.) She'd prefer to do something subtle and sabotaging, I'd think, though. After all, she *is* old, and *tricky*. Age and treachery will beat youth and skill, and all that. (Had a fencing teacher with that T-shirt...) >Also, remember age isn't necessarily an indication of power, especially >with Superiors. Haagenti munched several Princes who were much older than >him. The power of a Superior waxes and wanes with the power of their Word. And the type of Word. Haagenti munched Sloth... >>>>However, since Lilith's Word is Freedom, my take is that she'd be >relatively kind to her Lilim.<<< > >Relatively.....for a Demon Princess. It all depends on one's relatives, eh? Sort of a benign neglect, probably... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 97 14:51 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Starting out with discord >One of my players has submitted a character which has a fair bit of >discord initially. This has given him more point, of course. I'm >wondering what you guys think about characters that start with discord >(angels, to be more precise). As a GM, I would be *very* dubious about allowing a PC angel (other than an Outcast) have any more than 1 level of Discord, and that recently acquired. I'd also want to know exactly how this Discord was acquired, and who knows about it. Some Superiors (Dominic, David, and Laurence come to mind) are very intolerant of erring servitors -- a character with *any* Discord who serves one of these had better be willing to give a *really* good explanation, or they're not going to be around too long. And most other Superiors are going to want to remove the Discord right away -- and that costs character points.... Of course, the character might be hiding from his Superior, but that's a good way to get Outcast or worse, when you get found out. Any way you slice it, a regular angel with Discord should have some *serious* problems right away. For an Outcast, of course, Discord is OK, even mandatory. And demons can have it with no problem (I figure that Princes find it a good way to punish servitors who've caused trouble but are otherwise too valuable to waste). >I'm basically looking for opinions about this, as I'm curious on how >this will work out in game play, and whether it is fair or not. It's fair enough, as long as you charge the character points to fix it. But it *should* cause problems in play -- the character should be trying to get the Discord fixed right away, or risk being Outcast or destroyed. As a GM, I'd probably have the Superior send the PC on a *really* hard mission, to prove his worth, before fixing the Discord. (How hard the mission is will depend on the Superior, and how the Discord was acquired.) The character's reward for success will be the removal of the Discord, and *only* that -- no other bennies. This is essentially the same sort of thing Outcasts go through when petitioning for reinstatement, only not quite as severe. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 97 16:49 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Geases > A patch I have thought about using for this is, you take damage >for any WILLFULL delay in completeing the Geas. I've considered it. It's a little tricky to make that call, sometimes, and I like the idea that the PC should feel time-pressured by the Geas. Being somewhat threatened by "acts of God" may be useful. Dunno.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 15:05:47 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Songs and Celestial Resonances On Aug 25, 6:40pm, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Subject: IN> Songs and Celestial Resonances > It occured to me, reading the stuff about how the Song of Motion is > faster than most Ofanim, that perhaps celestials have a *bonus* to > Songs that are akin to their Resonance? > > Say, add the appropriate Forces to either the skill roll or the > Check Digit of the Song? (I like adding them to the Check Digit, > I think.) > > So Ofanim would add Corporeal Forces for the Corporeal Song of > Motion, Ethereal Forces for the Ethereal Song of Motion, and > Celestial Forces for the Celestial Song of Motion. > > Cherubim & Djinn would add Forces for the Songs of Attraction. > > Impudites would possibly add forces for the Songs of Charm? > > Kyrios would add Forces for the Song of Possession (!!). > > Elohim would add Forces to the hypothetical Song(s) of Empathy, > and Seraphim to the equally hypothetical Song(s) of Truth. > > That sound like a way to keep particular Choirs/Bands "the best", > even when there are Songs out there that duplicate resonances? Not unreasonable (I was thinking of something similar). Of course, the 'right' Song for a particular band/choir might not have been published yet! ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 16:38:41 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #312 At 9:00 AM -0400 8/26/97, Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki wrote: >At 06:37 AM 8/26/97 -0400, you wrote: >>From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" >>> Actually, David is right. If the Lilim agrees to do a job >>for a certain amount of money (even if the amount sucks), this doesn't >>count a favor... it's a _job_.< >> >>Lilim of Gluttony as Chefs? Since that seems to get you a favour [Geas 2, >>Hook 2, etc] without them having to have seen you or for you to have >>percieved a desire for food. > >That doesn't work -- the Lilim has to look a person in the eye and percieve >a Need before she can fulfill it... At least, that's the way I always read >the passage. (I don't have my IN book with me to double-check at the >moment...) With the possible exception of the Lilim of Gluttony attunement, which is a special case. Sure. If the Lilim spends the time in the kitchen... Can't you just see a Lil of Gluttony...at a soup kitchen? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 12:46:45 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... At 12:39 AM 8/26/97 -0400, you wrote: >Speaking of Lilim and Kyrios, what happens when a Lilim does a favor for >a Kyrio -- not realizing that it IS a Kyrio, of course -- and then tries >to call in the Geas once the Kyrio has left for another host? > >Does the Geas simply fail, because it was the Kyrio that was Geased, not >the host? If so, it makes for a good way for Kyrios to screw over Lilim. >If not, then the poor human will have gotten a Geas for absolutely >nothing in return. > Oh, my! ROTFLMAO Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 97 18:17 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... >> But isn't it weird that Ofanim don't get any bonus to Driving? > > That's a not very clearly worded section in the Ofanim >description. The resonance mentions 'any roll against Agility >itself or an associated skill'. It should specifically include >Driving and specifically disallow Agility skills like Throwing. >If it looks like motion and feels like motion, it's probably >motion. Last time I looked, Throwing tended to involve motion.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 19:52:57 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? On Mon, 25 Aug 1997 13:14:16 +0000, "Nathaniel Eliot" wrote: >> That might require a change to (un)holy pistol and bullet mechanics. >> Probably there are other ripples out there... It sounds ok, but >> having just gotten surprised by the NM mechanic... > >Trust me, the rule can be looked over. I'm getting pretty good at >doing retrofit changes to systems, having fooled with GURPS for >years. I'm already working on a better d666 system, for personal >use. Given the small amount of rules out now, it would be better to >do any fixes you want to now, rather than letting them fester. >Assuming you want to change things. Basically: it sounds good; but I just haven't had the time to look it over thoroughly. I'd also like to see what the canon position/reaction will be. >> I think you want to toughen the host up somewhat. The old super >> strength of possession bit. > >Then give them a way to invest spare forces at a slightly lower rate. I had thought of that, and it's kind of an interesting idea. The more a Kyrio spreads himself thin, the weaker his vessels get. I kind of like this. >> Check out Wolf vs. Dog on page 191: Dogs run at 10 x Ag but Wolves >> at 12 x Ag. IOW, the GM can set the Agility multiple as appropriate. > >Okay, good point, but avoids the larger problem. Do you want to >rationalize why Harry, Kyriotate of Jordi, is just as able to react >in his 3-toed sloth host as in his hummingbird? Rationalize? Why would I need to rationalize? I'd just give the Hummer agility x 10 and the Sloth agility x 3, x 1 if he's been debauched. :) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 19:53:10 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and geases On Tue, 26 Aug 1997 06:54:06 +0200, Jo Hart wrote: >>No, consent of the Geased is not required--check the Lilim section. The bit >>with the conversation with the businessman on page 149 is that he could >>refuse to accept that money; some favors you just can't refuse accepting, >>like saving your life. > >Well, the bit with the businessman on p149 does show the Lilim asking >first. If its a real need and she hasn't flubbed her perception roll then >the person is very unlikely to refuse (someone walks up to you from out of >the blue and suddenly offers you the chance to solve all the problems that >were keeping you awake at night with no effort? Do you refuse? :-) ). But I see that as happening because the Lilim couldn't really satisfy the need without his help to do so, in that specific case. >I very much like the deal with the devil idea and it gets over the concept >of the maternity nurse which I really wasn't keen on. I mean, if you can >geas a baby like that then presumably you can geas a dog to kill its owner >etc etc -- got to be similar intelligence. That wasn't a fair deal in any >sense of the word and I think Lilim should have to work harder for their >geases. YMMV. 'What do you mean I have to kill someone because you mixed up >some baby food 30 years ago?' I'm not really keen on that either, nor on the Lilim waitress, paramedic, etc. I wouldn't mind a canonical ruling that some level of consent is needed, especially for small things. But those aren't the rules now. >It may not need conscious consent but some subconscious understanding of >the deal should be there, I think. People do get into them willingly, even >(especially) if they don't understand. I thought that was sort of the point. I wouldn't fault making that change in the rules... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 11:07:44 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Jordi and Domestic Pets. Two likely points in history for Jordi to get soured on humans are (1) right after our Fall, when we officially were cast out of Eden, got clothed in animal skins, and, a generation later, were offering animal sacrifices to God, any of which Jordi might regard as NOT what was meant when we were originally set the task of "tending the Garden," and (2) right after the Flood, when God explicitly gave animals to Noah & Co. as food, but also set the fear of humans in the animals to protect them. I'd vote (2), myself. Where this falls in the evolutionary sequence is a fascinating question. What species of human WERE Adam, Eve, Noah, etc.? Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 17:40:51 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> An angel with discord On Tue, 26 Aug 1997 Calabim@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 97-08-26 01:08:49 EDT, shadowcat wrote: > > << Here is the character I ran in Sean Reynold's campaign till he was > transported out west by the "Mages by the Sea." I would like to hear > peoples opinions on him. >> > > He's cool enough I will likely steal him for my campaign. Be my guest. I am thinking of using him in an upcoming campaign as a "trainer" for some angels fresh from Heaven. Basicly he will have them trying to track down cursed Artifacts (Can we say Fri. the 13th the series ;-)) > He has discord, but not so much he's useless. > The discord is used to build up and describe his personality. > It's not like he did it solely hunted for points. A whole whopping 3 points? > He did it for the roleplaying. and it gives the G.M a few plot hooks to use later. > He should recieve a bit of criticism from his fellow angels, but honestly I > can see most angels sympathizing with him. He has a reasonably good motive to > keep the discord. > > Honestly this is a model of what creating a character with discord should be. Thank you. Shadowcat All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #314 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.