From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Aug 27 04:50:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA26457 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 04:50:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA01509 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 03:14:28 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 03:14:28 -0500 Message-Id: <199708270814.DAA01509@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #315 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, August 27 1997 Volume 01 : Number 315 In this digest: Re: IN> Lilim Geases Re: IN> Lilim Geases Re: IN> Ofanim Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... Re: IN> [FLUFF] Diabolical Dealings at Gen Con Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... Re: IN> Character idea: Rolemaker Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? [none] Re: IN> Jordi and Domestic Pets. Re: IN> Jordi and Domestic Pets. Re: IN> Smut (and nothing but) Re: IN> Re: Smut (and nothing but) Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... Re: IN> [FLUFF] Diabolical Dealings at Gen Con Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... Re: IN> Changing nature (was - Hire Purchase of Lilim) Re: IN> Kyriosity Killed the Kat Re: IN> New Drugs Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? Re: IN> Lilim Rules Question Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... Re: IN> Hire Purchase of Lilim Re: IN> Lilim Geases Re: IN> Character idea: Rolemaker Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? Re: IN> Hire Purchase of Lilim Re: IN> In Nomine Pbem: Fade to Gray Re: IN> Lilim Rules Question Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... Re: IN> Songs and Celestial Resonances IN> [IN]Kyriosity Killed the Kat ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 26 Aug 97 11:18 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Geases >You have three things going on: (A) the power of the Geas, (B) the duration >of the task, and (C) the level of punishment. [Proposed mechanics deleted] >I don't quite like this because it moves things up and down scales, making >it a little hard to use; but I think it has about the right play balance. We actually came up with something similar, but without the modifier for punishment duration. That's worth considering. I'm liking the notion of a punishment rate that's normally constant. To do this, though, you'd need to add that the punishment only occurs for a long task if the person isn't working diligently to perform it. (Sounds like something Dogbert would approve of....) >>[NOTE: I have always read the "self-Geas" paragraph as "It >>causes her dissonance *unless* she fulfills it" rather than "until". >>I don't think a Self-Geas on a Lilim should cause dissonance right >>then, persisiting until it's fulfilled. It will, however, slap >>her with dissonance if she breaks her promise.] > >I think "until" is right, unless the Geas is to do something later. At the >point you're supposed to start working on the Geas-task, the clock starts >ticking. I don't think any Geas should inflict dissonance unless the task is *not* being worked on. As written, punishment is inflicted "up front", and only goes away when the Lilim finishes. This is particularly problematic if a Free Lilim's Geas is to "serve Superior X" for a month. The Lilim carrying the automatic dissonance from this until the end of the month has her resonance impaired, making the service that much less useful. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 97 11:08 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Geases >(I'm also kind of liking the idea that the amount of Dissonance you get if >you fail is equal to the Level of the Geas...) I was also thinking along those lines -- these are some house rules I'm considering: The maximum "damage" a Geas can cause should be related to its level. My current thinking is that it should be twice the Geas level. So if you can't do the one-hour task in one hour, you take one point of Dissonance (or damage); after another hour, you get one more hit, but it then just holds there however long it takes you to finally finish the task, at which point you suddenly get better. I'm still undecided whether the dissonance inflicted per interval should be one point (as written), or equal to the Geas level. If the latter, I'd like to spread it out over the interval, but the bookkeeping is rather ugly.... I may just stick with the one point/interval. If the task turns out to be impossible, or more difficult than the level of the Geas would support (unknown to the Lilim or the victim), I would say it is automatically broken, but the victim takes a single point of Dissonance or damage, which can be cured normally. Lilim shouldn't be able to abuse this -- in particular, I would rule that they can't make a Geas "bite" if they knowingly ask for something that exceeds the Geas level. One more thing I've been thinking about as a house rule is that dissonance (or damage) from Geases shouldn't be curable -- it's not really an instantaneous thing like normal dissonance, but an ongoing process. This precludes the trick of going into a Tether once a month to get the dissonance from your Geas/4 removed, and makes ignoring a Geas/6 a nastier proposition.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 11:26:23 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Ofanim > As I saw the Telephone thing it was only Phone to Phone [and you had to get > through on the number first.] which brings it down to no worse than > teleporting to a plant. It is also one of the few tricks the celestials in > Good omens get up to that thre is't a good match to in IN. However I'm not > sure whether I think the Cherub of Lightning attunemet would make it > seriously unbalanced.Even if in normal use one might get stuck in a voice > mail system. What I have been specifically commenting on was the proposed 'electronic communication' attunement. It is unbalancing when compared to other attunements and resonances. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 09:58:41 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... In reply to: > Does the Geas simply fail, because it was the Kyrio that was Geased, not > the host? If so, it makes for a good way for Kyrios to screw over Lilim. > If not, then the poor human will have gotten a Geas for absolutely > nothing in return. A Geas can be used to track the victim in a similar manner to the Cherub resonance. I'd rule that in this case the Geas is just as effective at tracking a Kyrio as an other person, since a Geas is specifically in the soul. I also think a Lilim would 'know' who her geas was held by. So if she went up to the person, before she would even ask for the geas to be fulfilled, she would realise that this isn't the right person. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 08:46:25 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> [FLUFF] Diabolical Dealings at Gen Con On Aug 22, 5:29pm, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> [FLUFF] Diabolical Dealings at Gen Con > At 12:17 AM -0500 8/22/97, Shadowcat wrote: > >Wich issue will this be in?? I want this. > > (So do I...) > > >P.S. Archbeth just hoe many list folk DO owe you Geasa?? > > I dunno. At least 3-4, I'd say. > I stopped paying as much attention to those when I went Bright. > O;> How about all those Geas/1 you gather for digging through the archives? ;) Must be getting pretty close to a Geas/5 or 6 on some of those Superiors right now! - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 10:41:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Dennis C Hwang Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, Casca wrote: > Speaking of Lilim and Kyrios, what happens when a Lilim does a favor for > a Kyrio -- not realizing that it IS a Kyrio, of course -- and then tries > to call in the Geas once the Kyrio has left for another host? > > Does the Geas simply fail, because it was the Kyrio that was Geased, not > the host? If so, it makes for a good way for Kyrios to screw over Lilim. > If not, then the poor human will have gotten a Geas for absolutely > nothing in return. Well, I'm not Beth, but I see the situation like this. The Geas is given to whoever asked for the favor. If a Kyriotate asked for the favor, it would get the Geas, regardless of whatever host-body it's wearing at the time. It shouldn't affect the host at all, since the host's mind is off in the Marches...and, after all, it isn't the actual host's needs that the Lilim in question is addressing. Now a Shedim, on the other hand, poses a more interesting question. - --Dennis, aka Imago, Kyriotate of Jordi dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu xenopathologist at large! Deathwalker for President: for some *real* health care reform. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 11:42:33 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Character idea: Rolemaker On Aug 23, 11:55pm, Casca wrote: > Subject: IN> Character idea: Rolemaker > > Just a brief idea, inspired by Karakesh's excellent post on how Roles are > made. > > How about a character who takes the Role the 'long way' and, upon growing > up, gets a job in the local government whereby he has the capability to > manufacture Roles for other Celestials? Someone who can assign SSNs and > birth certificates, for example... > > Or have them work for the Federal Witness Relocation Program, where not > only can a person be created on paper from scratch, but also could be > used to protect Soldiers and their families. There's an NPC in Night Music that handles driver's licenses for angels in Texas... - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 11:45:15 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? > (Even without getting so extreme, consider a swarm with a Strength/7, say. > Thirty - count 'em - no-see-ums land on someone's shoulders, and just pick > the guy up, fly him a few hundred feet into the air and let go...at the > worst, the Kyrio brings in a couple swarms, so maybe it takes a whopping > 90 tiny insects to carry an elephant without getting too winded..) > [Alright, maybe a baby elephant, but you see my point.] It's a matter of practical use of strength (the old Superman picking up a building trick). They each grab a minute portion of someone's clothing very, very tightly. They fly up. The person loses thirty teeny pieces of thread from their garments. =) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 11:00:00 -0500 From: "Yeager, Alex" Subject: [none] From: Emily K. Dresner > I was thinking about Word-Bound Celestials... > The Celestial physically embodies the Word they are given. It's > not so much that they need to promote it, as they ARE it, and it > affects the Symphony in such a way. [idea that proximity evokes response snipped] A teenager and his car are wrapped around a telephone pole outside of Austin. Druiel walks up. The teen decides "What's the use?" and bludgeons himself to death with the detached steering wheel. Druiel walks away muttering, "Why couldn't I have been the Angel of Teenage Death But Only AFTER a Dramatic Emotional Scene?"... It's an interesting idea, but it's not one that I would probably use on a regular basis. One of the characteristics of my IN world-view is that Celestials (especially Angels) are continually learning their Word. I prefer the idea that the Angel of Contract Negotiations would have the skills necessary to perform the tasks involved (instead of its presence causing everyone in the room to reflexively negotiate fairly and efficiently). My (mostly unofficial) mechanic: You're given a Word after proving you have the skills necessary to support and defend your Word. You then go out into the world, practicing your skills to defend your Word WITHOUT having to resort to a deus ex machina Essence solution. You will run into situations where you will need to spend Essence, but you run the risk of alerting others, backfires, etc. Your "Celestialness" is what allows you to sense an appropriate situation and become engaged in that situation as quickly as possible. Your proven skills are your first line of attack when confronted with a situation. God might be "perfect", but a perfect unfinished table might still improve over time with staining, varnishing, a vase with flowers, etc. In the same way, I prefer to look at Celestials as their Word, but continually learning and understanding their Word as it relates to the Symphony in general and humanity in particular. An "aura" just doesn't squeeze in that very well, IMO... Alex Yeager yeagerAW@Maritz.com MIB/FoL/INWO Local 23 P.S. I am no longer subscribed to the list, only the digest - I am the infamous MR. MICH from Southfield, and until Elizabeth noted in on a recent message, I was unaware that this list was currently being affected. New server in ten days; until then... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 23:06:30 -0400 From: speaks@mindspring.com Subject: Re: IN> Jordi and Domestic Pets. At 11:07 AM 8/26/97 -0500, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Two likely points in history for Jordi to get soured on humans >are (1) right after our Fall, when we officially were cast out >of Eden, got clothed in animal skins, and, a generation later, >were offering animal sacrifices to God, any of which Jordi might >regard as NOT what was meant when we were originally set the >task of "tending the Garden," and God specifically approved of Abel's sacrifice of Animals as superior to Cain's sacrifice of plants. >(2) right after the Flood, >when God explicitly gave animals to Noah & Co. as food, but also >set the fear of humans in the animals to protect them. I'd >vote (2), myself. This does make more sense. >Where this falls in the evolutionary sequence is a fascinating >question. What species of human WERE Adam, Eve, Noah, etc.? This assumes Evolution in the In Nomine Universe. I would think Creationism is more likely. The dinosaurs could be an "old earth" theory or a trick of Lucifer's to help Science "debunk" God. Speaks There are few situations in life that cannot be resolved promptly, and to the satisfaction of all concerned, by either suicide, a bag of gold, or thrusting a despised antagonist over a precipice on a dark night. -- Ernest Bramah (Kai Lung stories) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 03:39:59 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Jordi and Domestic Pets. On Tue, 26 Aug 1997 11:07:44 -0500, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Two likely points in history for Jordi to get soured on humans >are (1) right after our Fall, ... and (2) right after the Flood, ... I think other points could be the founding of cities, which caused disruption of everything within traveling range of the city--wood cutting for building, agriculture taking over from native plants, domestic animals pushing out wild animals, etc.--and the industrial revolution which caused much more massive changes. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 00:50:03 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Smut (and nothing but) > Not that this has anything to do with anything, but why bother? > In this neck of the woods, men get Pap smears not uncommonly. > (Anal Pap smears, that is.) They're used for the same purpose... Oh, thank you. That was just a yummy bit of info... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com How much reverence can you have for a Supreme Being who finds it necessary to include such phenomena as phlegm and tooth decay in His d ivine system of Creation? - Joseph Heller ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 14:42:20 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Smut (and nothing but) On Aug 25, 10:06am, IQJason@aol.com wrote: > Subject: Re: Re: IN> Re: Smut (and nothing but) > Elizabeth McCoy: > " If you want non-Lust smut... I most like XXXenophile stuff. > Consensual, with *real* tenderness..." > > *nod* I'm still doing the Dance of Joy over the fact that Phil is doing some > art for us in an upcoming issue. Woo hoo! An upcoming issue of _what_? - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 00:50:03 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... > Speaking of Lilim and Kyrios, what happens when a Lilim does a > favor for a Kyrio -- not realizing that it IS a Kyrio, of course > -- and then tries to call in the Geas once the Kyrio has left for > another host? What happens if the reverse happens - Lilim Geas-hooks a mortal, Kyriotate possesses mortal later, and Lilim tries to use the Geas. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com How much reverence can you have for a Supreme Being who finds it necessary to include such phenomena as phlegm and tooth decay in His d ivine system of Creation? - Joseph Heller ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 00:50:03 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> [FLUFF] Diabolical Dealings at Gen Con > >> P.S. Archbeth just hoe many list folk DO owe you Geasa?? > > > >I think I am in that crowd - I could have sworn the resonance needs > >eye-contact, but she looks like she found and is fulfilling my "Needs > >a mature group to RP with as a player". > > It's one of the things you can buy from Jean -- "requires email > contact"... O;> Oooh - Bright Lilim resonances! I like it - it fits very well. Got any others? > [We gotta get together on stuff -- have we swapped phone > numbers yet? And good times to call?] It's in the mail... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com How much reverence can you have for a Supreme Being who finds it necessary to include such phenomena as phlegm and tooth decay in His d ivine system of Creation? - Joseph Heller ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 23:42:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > The Geas-hook... > #1: won't lead to the host, it will lead to the Kyrio. (Or the > nearest bit of it or something.) > #2: (assuming she didn't use the hook to trackdown) won't invoke at all. > It will remain inert and the host will be going, "huh? do I know you?" It's how I figured it would work, but I wanted confirmation from you and Karakesh. > How's that? A sight better than Jeff Miller's response, assuredly. - -- Casca (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 00:50:03 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Changing nature (was - Hire Purchase of Lilim) > >> AAs and DPs can basically do anything, at the discretion of the > >> GM. They *make* celestials. > > > >Yes, but that's assuming that Lilith has the nigh infinite power that > >you (as GM) would give her. That is *far* from the default > >assumption. > > I assume that AAs and DPs can do just about anything to the > average celestial except change their basic nature (Choir/Band and > angel/demonhood) -- that has to be voluntary (or at least due to > the celestial's own actions). I wonder - can Choir/Band be changed, except to it's opposite? And how common is it? For that matter, how often do Celestials change Superiors. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com How much reverence can you have for a Supreme Being who finds it necessary to include such phenomena as phlegm and tooth decay in His d ivine system of Creation? - Joseph Heller ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 14:49:22 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Kyriosity Killed the Kat On Aug 25, 1:10pm, Walter Milliken wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Kyriosity Killed the Kat > >See...I'm having trouble understanding how it's ever considered 'good' to > >hijack a human body. With the Shedim, it's corruption -- exposing the mortal > >to the horrible things that people are capable of so that they'll learn to > >enjoy them. But a Kyrio's vessel is essentially out-of-the-picture when he's > >being ridden. He's being used out of expedience. > [Good examples snipped] > And of course, animal hosts are much less of an ethical problem. This concept has actually been explored in fiction. I believe it was one Kimball Kinnison in the Lensman series that would always do something nice for people that he mind controlled without their permission. Among the recipients of this largesse was a washed-up asteroid miner, a worm and a hungry spider. Of course, he would mind control bad guys and just mess up their entire, albeit short, lives! - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 00:50:03 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> New Drugs > >> Tobacco is more like +1 Int, -1 Precision: there's a reason smokers get > >> into far more car accidents than non-smokers. > > > > Lighting cigarettes and accidentally dropping lit ones in your > >lap. ;) > > Or smokers are psychologically risk-takers, and cut things closer. How many smokers do you know? The two traits aren't linked (or rather, if they are, a better arguement could be made for their a negative correlation). Smoking is not a risk (from a risk-taker's POV) - it's effect is not immediate to be. And it tends to screw with your ability to handle risk, which would turn a lot risk-takers off to it. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com How much reverence can you have for a Supreme Being who finds it necessary to include such phenomena as phlegm and tooth decay in His d ivine system of Creation? - Joseph Heller ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 01:15:28 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? > >> Check out Wolf vs. Dog on page 191: Dogs run at 10 x Ag but Wolves > >> at 12 x Ag. IOW, the GM can set the Agility multiple as appropriate. > > > >Okay, good point, but avoids the larger problem. Do you want to > >rationalize why Harry, Kyriotate of Jordi, is just as able to react > >in his 3-toed sloth host as in his hummingbird? > > Rationalize? Why would I need to rationalize? I'd just give the Hummer > agility x 10 and the Sloth agility x 3, x 1 if he's been debauched. :) I was talking for things like dodging, which is tied to agility IIRC. Can a sloth host really dodge as well as a hummingbird? Yes, you could make a(nother) patch. Ad infinitum, trust me. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com How much reverence can you have for a Supreme Being who finds it necessary to include such phenomena as phlegm and tooth decay in His d ivine system of Creation? - Joseph Heller ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 00:50:03 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Rules Question > >But to take the extreme case, suppose the Lilim has 6 celestial > >forces and perception of 12. That makes her base roll 18, so her > >check digit will be 7-12. Plus any essence spent! Does she really > >get that level of Geas and will reduction, or always 6? > > 6! 6! Dear ethereal gods, 6! (Okay, the *Will roll* > might be reduced by more. Maybe...) Or maybe she picks up a > need/6 and a need/1-6? That is a good point - not everybody has a Need/6. I don't, at the moment - I think the highest I have is about a Need/4, and that would be hard to do. So a really good CD might show a couple of low-level Needs - a CD 6 may sense a Need/2 and a Need/3. I don't even think they need to add up to the CD, but I'd rule they can't exceed it. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com How much reverence can you have for a Supreme Being who finds it necessary to include such phenomena as phlegm and tooth decay in His d ivine system of Creation? - Joseph Heller ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 23:37:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, Jeff Miller wrote: > At 12:39 AM 8/26/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Speaking of Lilim and Kyrios, what happens when a Lilim does a favor for > >a Kyrio -- not realizing that it IS a Kyrio, of course -- and then tries > >to call in the Geas once the Kyrio has left for another host? > > > Oh, my! > > ROTFLMAO (sarcasm) Oh, well then, this explains everything. (/sarcasm) Pray tell, how does this response help things in the slightest? I get the distinct feeling that I'm being mocked and that's the surest way to get me pissed off. - -- Casca (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 00:50:03 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Hire Purchase of Lilim > >> AAs and DPs can basically do anything, at the discretion of the > >> GM. They *make* celestials. > > > >Yes, but that's assuming that Lilith has the nigh infinite power that > >you (as GM) would give her. That is *far* from the default > >assumption. > > Canonical: > > AAs: "Most angels were created by their Archangel molded from the > purest patterns of the Symphony." (P. 108) > > DPs: "More than likely, the PCs were 'born' and trained in their > master's Principality in Hell..." (P.155) > > Lilith: "Each Lilim is an individual creation of Lilith herself." > (P.150) Yes - Celestials were created by Superiors. That doesn't mean that Superiors can just change a resisting Celestial. That is the equivalent of performing cosmetic surgery on a moving target - you can cut them up, but you can't do much else. And I don't think there are Celestial sedatives. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com How much reverence can you have for a Supreme Being who finds it necessary to include such phenomena as phlegm and tooth decay in His d ivine system of Creation? - Joseph Heller ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 03:39:56 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Geases On Tue, 26 Aug 97 11:18 EDT, Walter Milliken wrote: >We actually came up with something similar, but without the modifier for >punishment duration. That's worth considering. I'm liking the notion >of a punishment rate that's normally constant. To do this, though, >you'd need to add that the punishment only occurs for a long task if the >person isn't working diligently to perform it. (Sounds like something >Dogbert would approve of....) Exactly. I think the Geas has to be invoked as, "Do X by D-day." The GM has to rule on whether that's a fair time scale, as he does now. Once D-day passes, the hits just keep on coming at regular intervals. >I don't think any Geas should inflict dissonance unless the task is >*not* being worked on. As written, punishment is inflicted "up front", >and only goes away when the Lilim finishes. This is particularly >problematic if a Free Lilim's Geas is to "serve Superior X" for a month. >The Lilim carrying the automatic dissonance from this until the end of >the month has her resonance impaired, making the service that much less >useful. Well the Lilim will have the Discord, but she'll only get the dissonance *after* the first time period, by which time she's supposed to have the task done under the standard rules. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 00:50:03 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Character idea: Rolemaker > The tricky part of Roles isn't the government paperwork to substantiate > it, but the *people* -- as I see it, a high-level Role requires other > people to remember you. A Role/6 would withstand an FBI Top Secret > security clearance check, while a Role/1 (which I view basically as > being a driver's license and an SSN) probably wouldn't stand up to even > a superficial investigation by the local cops -- the documents may not > be backed by appropriate computer records, or would fail a simple > cross-check. I don't see why a Role/1 wouldn't be completely backed by paperwork - given the "ease" of doing it, I would think all Celestials with roles would have documents covering everything. Like you said, the role refers to *people* - if they go to check on that "mother" on your birth certificate, they aren't going to find her. Either she's already dead, or she never existed. And if they use a corpse as a "mother", nobody is going to remember her having you. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com How much reverence can you have for a Supreme Being who finds it necessary to include such phenomena as phlegm and tooth decay in His d ivine system of Creation? - Joseph Heller ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 00:50:03 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? > > Okay, good point, but avoids the larger problem. Do you want to > > rationalize why Harry, Kyriotate of Jordi, is just as able to react > > in his 3-toed sloth host as in his hummingbird? > > Presumably for the same reason that a Str 8 celestial in a little girl's > body can outwrestle a Str 4 celestial in a big bruiser's. This already > shows that vessels (and, by extension, hosts) aren't bound by the > constraints of the type of physical body. Hosts aren't vessels. Vessels might be specially built to handle the extra strength. Hosts are built like they are built. > Personally, I kinda like the surreal image of a high-agility Kyriotate > inhabiting a Galapagos tortoise. Imagine the sheer disbelief of the > unscrupulous collector as the huge reptile suddenly bursts into a full-out > charge and scales the nearest outcropping for safety. Then let the Kyriotate suppliment the stats at a 3 for 2 rate, like I suggested when I proposed my idea. I just don't like that being the default - it takes uniqueness out of vessels. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com How much reverence can you have for a Supreme Being who finds it necessary to include such phenomena as phlegm and tooth decay in His d ivine system of Creation? - Joseph Heller ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 00:50:03 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Hire Purchase of Lilim > >> AAs and DPs can basically do anything, at the discretion of the > >> GM. They *make* celestials. > > > >Yes, but that's assuming that Lilith has the nigh infinite power that > >you (as GM) would give her. That is *far* from the default > >assumption. > > But I generally assume that AAs and DPs can rip any normal celestial > Force from Force, if desired, impose or remove Discords, Attunements, > and Rites at will, and other such actions. I.e., the only creature that > can normally resist the actions of a Superior is another Superior. Okay - here is where I disagree with you. Yes, they can rip Force from Force, because they are f***ing big. Yes, they can remove Discord, but only if the Celestial is willing. They can remove Attunements and Rites *that they grant*. They might be able to remove other attunements, but again, only if the Celestial is willing. Now, Lilith might be able to force somebody to submit to a Geas by threat of force, but I doubt she could simply force one on somebody. Otherwise, she could easily produce one of the first Dark Malakim - just go up to one, slap it with the Geasa "Don't kill Demon X" and "Accompany Demon X. Keep away from any Celestial but Demon X for Y period of time", and watch them rack up the dissonance. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com How much reverence can you have for a Supreme Being who finds it necessary to include such phenomena as phlegm and tooth decay in His d ivine system of Creation? - Joseph Heller ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 02:17:44 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Pbem: Fade to Gray > Fade to Gray I like the intro to this - what is the chance of lurking at this point? Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com How much reverence can you have for a Supreme Being who finds it necessary to include such phenomena as phlegm and tooth decay in His d ivine system of Creation? - Joseph Heller ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 19:53:24 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Rules Question On Mon, 25 Aug 1997 19:15:02 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >At 5:34 AM +0000 8/25/97, Walt Mazur wrote: >>On Mon, 25 Aug 1997 08:30:13 GMT+10, "Leathal Weapon" >><938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> wrote: >> >>>Yes, yet another Lilim-related rules question. I'm unsure how to >>>interpret the Lilim of Kronos Attunement. It reads "Kronos' Lilim can >>>see Discord in the eyes of others. Also, they can add their Celestial >>>Forces to any attempt to inflict a charmed person with their infernal >>>geas." Now the first part about the Discord is straightforward, but >>>the second part confuses me. Does it mean that the Lilim adds their >>>Celestial forces to the Perception roll to get the geas, or does it >>>mean that their Celestial Forces are added to the difficulty of the >>>victim to resist the geas (like the initial level of Geas being >>>subtracted byt he will roll)? >> >>The former, I'd say. The will roll is the victim's roll, not the Lilim's. >>However, since the initial roll is boosted, the final check digit will be >>boosted. > >I might make it the latter, myself -- they have to *charm* that >fellow first, but it will toast his Will. (Though "charm"? What, >you need an Impudite? Song of Charm? Argh.) It does say "inflict," doesn't it? The problem I see an extreme Imp who gets Will drops of 7-12. That seems unbalancing. >>But to take the extreme case, suppose the Lilim has 6 celestial forces and >>perception of 12. That makes her base roll 18, so her check digit will be >>7-12. Plus any essence spent! Does she really get that level of Geas and >>will reduction, or always 6? > >6! 6! Dear ethereal gods, 6! (Okay, the *Will roll* >might be reduced by more. Maybe...) Or maybe she picks up a >need/6 and a need/1-6? I'm with you on the 6, Period. I can see (and have proposed) reasons for Geases over 6, but they have to be made from 6 or smaller Geases. Otherwise, Lilim are unbalanced. Whether other resonances should be limited to that, I don't know. I can see arguments both ways, but limiting resonances to 6 wouldn't break anything, I think. Where it would break things is skill rolls. CDs have to be allowed free range or all celestials end up equal at CD 6. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 00:22:24 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... > >Does the Geas simply fail, because it was the Kyrio that was Geased, not > >the host? > The Geas-hook... > #2: (assuming she didn't use the hook to trackdown) won't invoke at all. > It will remain inert and the host will be going, "huh? do I know you?" I don't think Geas hooks can reasonably be used to track someone down...that's too much overlap with the Cherub/Djinn Resonance. It'd probably be quite reasonable to say a Cherub or Djinn could do it (using the Geas as a kind of `material link', similar to, I suppose, attuning to someone via photograph...), but Lilim don't have tracking like that. Unfortunately, a Geased subject probably CAN weasel out of it if they can actually vanish like that...which isn't particularly less fair than the fact that they can get away just by devoting their lives to being completely useless. Otherwise, it seems to me the question comes down to, "Who's Need does she Perceive and fulfill?" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 06:07:52 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Songs and Celestial Resonances On Mon, 25 Aug 1997 18:40:38 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >It occured to me, reading the stuff about how the Song of Motion is >faster than most Ofanim, that perhaps celestials have a *bonus* to >Songs that are akin to their Resonance? How about the opposite, kind of: Should songs that emulate resonances allow use of choir and band attunments where they make sense? For example, should an angel with the Song of Possession be able to buy Eli's Kyriotate attunement, giving him a free Celestial Song of Form when possessing someone, or Yves' Kyriotate attunement to have access to the host's memories? Generally, it's an expensive way to get an effect, but for an celestial that can't get it any other way... The relevant Songs and Choirs seem to be: Celestial Song of Attraction: Cherub and Djinn Attunements Song of Possession: Kyriotate and Shedim Attunements ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 14:15:03 +0800 From: Colin Sng Subject: IN> [IN]Kyriosity Killed the Kat Greetings Celestials! Firstly I would like to say how much I have enjoyed watching this list grow since I last posted (which was digest#3). I just wish I had the time to join in as a regular poster. Since digest#3, I now have my In Nomine Core book and Night Music and am about ready to start GMing my first game of IN. Just waiting for some of my players to finish up their Characters... Ok on to the topic of my post, I know this is a little outdated but I'm a little behind on my reading of the digests.... >Casca said: >Have you ever been in a situation where something needed to be done >immediately, and if you had thought about it before you did it you >wouldn't have done it? (The example of running into a burning building to >save someone springs to mind.) The folks who have been in these >situations say that they don't know why they did them, they just found >themselves doing it because they knew it was the right thing to do -- but >five minutes later, they realized just how much danger they had been in, >and that knowledge freaks them out. > >I see Kyrios in the same way. Sometimes a person needs to do something >that they normally wouldn't do. Kyriotates give that push, when >necessary, and I think that's a good thing. A another very good example of this Kyriotate "push" is what happend to my step-Dad about a year ago, he was at work when, all of a sudden, he felt a icy grip on his heart, in short he had a heart attack. Thinking quickly, he went to find some help but he soon as he stood up, he blacked out, the next thing he knew he found himself in Mount Elizabeth Hospital. He had no idea how he got there. It was soon discovered that my step-Dad had calmly walked out of the office, into the parking lot, got into his car and drove the 45 mins to the hospital in typical Singapore lunch time traffic. There was no explaination of how it happend (as for me I call it an act of God...I am a christian after all) but if in IN, stuff like this is in the job description for kyriotates, I can fully understand why they hold the position that they hold in the angelic choirs. Till next time, keep up the good work people Colin Sng ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #315 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.