From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Aug 28 04:00:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA07466 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 04:00:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA26300 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 02:53:43 -0500 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 02:53:43 -0500 Message-Id: <199708280753.CAA26300@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #316 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, August 28 1997 Volume 01 : Number 316 In this digest: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... IN> Lilim Geases IN> Lilim of Gluttony Re: IN> Kyriosity Killed the Kat Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? Re: IN> Kyriosity Killed the Kat IN> Lilith's Potence Re: IN> Jordi and Domestic Pets. Re: IN> Hire Purchase of Lilim Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... Re: IN> Changing nature (was - Hire Purchase of Lilim) Re: IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #312 Re: IN> Lilim Geases Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... Re: IN> Smut (and nothing but) Re: IN> Changing nature (was - Hire Purchase of Lilim) Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? Re: IN> Changing nature (was - Hire Purchase of Lilim) Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... Re: IN> Lilim Geases IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... IN> Lilim Geases Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... Re: IN> Lilith's Potence Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... Re: IN> Lilim Geases Re: IN> New Drugs Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... Gaming War Stories (Re: IN> Lilim Geases) Re: IN> New Drugs Re: IN> Hire Purchase of Lilim Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... Re: IN> Changing nature (was - Hire Purchase of Lilim) Re: IN> Jordi and Domestic Pets. Re: IN> Hire Purchase of Lilim ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 03:34:57 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" >disallow Agility skills like Throwing. If it looks like motion and feels like motion, it's probably motion.< And throwing isn't something involving motion? Adam Canning ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 03:35:01 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Lilim Geases From: Elizabeth McCoy > Lilim getting hooks into other people's souls... Isn't that scarier than "Lilim getting people to owe them favors"?< Which is of course why they will refer to them as favours since " Your just going to owe me a favour" is a lot less offputting than" I'm going to get a hook in you." Adam Canning ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 03:35:06 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Lilim of Gluttony From: Elizabeth McCoy > With the possible exception of the Lilim of Gluttony attunement, which is a special case. Sure. If the Lilim spends the time in the kitchen... Can't you just see a Lil of Gluttony...at a soup kitchen? < The minimum preparation time is an hour, which might catch you out. My personal preference would be to use it at a Cordon Bleu restrant. You get a better class of victim and the food preparation time is long enough to cover what your doing. Adam Canning ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 17:50:02 +1000 (EST) From: peterf@wr.com.au (Peter Frederick) Subject: Re: IN> Kyriosity Killed the Kat >> And of course, animal hosts are much less of an ethical problem. > > This concept has actually been explored in fiction. I believe >it was one Kimball Kinnison in the Lensman series that would always >do something nice for people that he mind controlled without their >permission. Among the recipients of this largesse was a washed-up >asteroid miner, a worm and a hungry spider. > Of course, he would mind control bad guys and just mess >up their entire, albeit short, lives! Kyrio of Judgement wouldn't have too much of a problem with this, as long as the Hosts were bad enough to have gotten Discord (which opens another can of worms), in Kimball's case these were _really_ bad guys. Reply to peterf@wr.com.au What does the Lord require of you, but to do justice and to love kindness and to walk humbly with your God ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 17:49:59 +1000 (EST) From: peterf@wr.com.au (Peter Frederick) Subject: Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? >> Personally, I kinda like the surreal image of a high-agility Kyriotate >> inhabiting a Galapagos tortoise. Imagine the sheer disbelief of the >> unscrupulous collector as the huge reptile suddenly bursts into a full-out >> charge and scales the nearest outcropping for safety. > >Then let the Kyriotate suppliment the stats at a 3 for 2 rate, like I >suggested when I proposed my idea. I just don't like that being the >default - it takes uniqueness out of vessels. I just ran both ideas past Phasekiel (Elohim friend of mine) and he said both viewpoints were valid and that you should each play the game the way you feel most comfortable. Personally I like the "Host with Rider's Stats" and "Rider with Hosts Body Hits" version, fortunately all my players agree with me. If you would like me to extend my permission from John to play my game the way I like just let me know . Thanking you for your indulgence. Yours Peter. Scribe to Phasekiel, the Angel of Heresy Reply to peterf@wr.com.au What does the Lord require of you, but to do justice and to love kindness and to walk humbly with your God ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 11:32:42 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> Kyriosity Killed the Kat At 04:21 PM 8/22/97 EDT, you wrote: >>I'm having trouble understanding the way that the Kyriotate resonance -- >>multiplicity -- is an aspect of the Divine in the way that truth or honor >>are. All the other bands and choirs I can wrap my head around, but I can't >>quite grasp the Kyrios. The closest I could come was: "Kyrios represent the >>divine quality of Omnipresence, being multiple places at once," but that's >>not quite it. > >I think it's more tied into the experience of being *everyone*, seeing >the Symphony from myriad viewpoints. That explains the Kyrio leaning >toward subjectivity, they are the Symphony *experiencing* the Symphony. > I agree. As an outside, objective, description that's about it. However, it doesn't go far enough since the Kyriotates immerse themselves in the symphony. Just remember that no matter how grim or depressing a current assignment is, you're probably also watching children playing in a park. No matter how happy you are at the moment, there's probably part of you tracking down a serial rapist. All of the parts are different and doing different things but they're all *you*. A Kyrio is the embodiment of diversity. >I don't know if I've got as good a handle on Kyrios as Elizabeth does >toward Lilim, but I'd certainly be happy to discuss them. > Well, I've always been a bit scattered (and I've gotten use to it). So I feel that I have a pretty good grasp on Kyrios. Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 05:23:10 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Lilith's Potence >>>Maybe it's not worth the trouble? Hm.... I would assume it's *easier* for Lilith to do it, since it *is* her resonance...<<< Sorry, but I repeat: if Princes could slap Geases on angels at will, they would. For that matter, I kind of doubt Superiors can easily slap *any* kind of Discord on someone else's Servitors. Sure, if you capture them and have some time to spend with them...but Archangels and Princes would both go around tossing Discords right and left at other celestials if that were feasible. (I guess you could propose that they don't by mutual agreement-- "If you go around Geasing my Servitors, I'll do the same to yours"-- but I can't believe any kind of universal "treaty" among Superiors would survive for long.) >>>She can't be all-over "weaker" than the other Princes, at least, or else she'd have been dogfood centuries ago.<<< *Someone* has to be the weakest. They aren't all equal. >>>(Can't have it both ways -- either she's got enough personal power to defend herself, or she's got Lucy backing her up and *nobody* wants to cross her...)<<< I think she has enough personal power to defend herself-- but she'd still probably lose a fight to the death. It's just that that she'd take a big enough piece out of the Superior who did her in, it wouldn't be worth it. She stays alive by being more useful than she is annoying. - -David http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/innomine.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 08:58:17 -0500 From: Colin Fredericks Subject: Re: IN> Jordi and Domestic Pets. >This assumes Evolution in the In Nomine Universe. I would think Creationism >is more likely. The dinosaurs could be an "old earth" theory or a trick of >Lucifer's to help Science "debunk" God. Except! Except the passage where it says that Ofanim of Jordi miss the pteranadons being around. Maybe it's errata, but it's there. - -Sir Colin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 09:04:00 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Hire Purchase of Lilim > But I generally assume that AAs and DPs can rip any normal celestial > Force from Force, if desired, impose or remove Discords, Attunements, > and Rites at will, and other such actions. I.e., the only creature that > can normally resist the actions of a Superior is another Superior. IMO, any Superior can do all of these things and more. Weaker or new Superiors would probably weaken themselves significantly if doing major changes commonly (they gotta save their energy for _important_ things like their Word!) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 09:04:42 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... On Aug 26, 4:59pm, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... > At 12:39 AM -0400 8/26/97, Casca wrote: > >Speaking of Lilim and Kyrios, what happens when a Lilim does a favor for > >a Kyrio -- not realizing that it IS a Kyrio, of course -- and then tries > >to call in the Geas once the Kyrio has left for another host? > > > >Does the Geas simply fail, because it was the Kyrio that was Geased, not > >the host? > > The Geas-hook... > #1: won't lead to the host, it will lead to the Kyrio. (Or the > nearest bit of it or something.) > #2: (assuming she didn't use the hook to trackdown) won't invoke at all. > It will remain inert and the host will be going, "huh? do I know you?" > > How's that? That looks exactly right. ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 09:44:01 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Changing nature (was - Hire Purchase of Lilim) > I wonder - can Choir/Band be changed, except to it's opposite? And > how common is it? For that matter, how often do Celestials change > Superiors. Without dismantling the celestial and making a new celestial, no. Impossibly uncommon. Superior swapping is _very_ rare! - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 09:21:31 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #312 > With the possible exception of the Lilim of Gluttony attunement, > which is a special case. Sure. If the Lilim spends the time in > the kitchen... Can't you just see a Lil of Gluttony...at a soup > kitchen? By the description give for the attunement, people will be fighting for the stuff she makes! Say..... have you seen that Seinfeld episode with the Nazi Cook from Hell? ("No soup for you!") He made the best soup in the world and demanded weird things occasionally or you couldn't get any more soup. Hmmmm.... - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 09:40:39 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Geases > One more thing I've been thinking about as a house rule is that > dissonance (or damage) from Geases shouldn't be curable -- it's not > really an instantaneous thing like normal dissonance, but an ongoing > process. This precludes the trick of going into a Tether once a month > to get the dissonance from your Geas/4 removed, and makes ignoring a > Geas/6 a nastier proposition.... I like this idea. As long as the Geas is around, you have to suck up the damage. Perhaps it can even be cured on a daily basis, but it always comes back. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 09:42:24 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... On Aug 27, 12:50am, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... > > Speaking of Lilim and Kyrios, what happens when a Lilim does a > > favor for a Kyrio -- not realizing that it IS a Kyrio, of course > > -- and then tries to call in the Geas once the Kyrio has left for > > another host? > > What happens if the reverse happens - Lilim Geas-hooks a mortal, > Kyriotate possesses mortal later, and Lilim tries to use the Geas. The mortal isn't present at the time, so it would fail... - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 09:01:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Dennis C Hwang Subject: Re: IN> Smut (and nothing but) On Wed, 27 Aug 1997, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > > Not that this has anything to do with anything, but why bother? > > In this neck of the woods, men get Pap smears not uncommonly. > > (Anal Pap smears, that is.) They're used for the same purpose... > > Oh, thank you. That was just a yummy bit of info... Don't mention it. ;) - --Dennis, aka Imago, Kyriotate of Jordi dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu xenopathologist at large! Deathwalker for President: for some *real* health care reform. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 97 13:08 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Changing nature (was - Hire Purchase of Lilim) [Me:] >> I assume that AAs and DPs can do just about anything to the >> average celestial except change their basic nature (Choir/Band and >> angel/demonhood) -- that has to be voluntary (or at least due to >> the celestial's own actions). [Nathaniel:] >I wonder - can Choir/Band be changed, except to it's opposite? And >how common is it? I don't think changing essential nature (like Choir/Band) is possible without destroying the entity in question. So no, I'd say Choir/Band can't be changed at all. Even AAs and DPs can't do the angel/demon change freely -- otherwise, they'd do it all the time when there was a strategic reason for it. So I assume that the angel/demon change can only result from the actions of the celestial himself (though demon->angel *also* requires the aid of an Archangel). > For that matter, how often do Celestials change >Superiors. I'd say very rarely. My current view is that angels are either created by a Superior in resonance with his nature, or that they evolve from Relievers and choose a Superior that they most align with in nature. In either case, unless the angel's nature changes, they have little motivation to want to serve someone else. I can see it mostly happening with Outcasts who are looking for *any* Superior to let them back in -- the original one may not want them back, and some Superiors are softer touches than others. For demons, it's harder to call -- imps and gremlins may simply be grabbed by a Prince and upgraded when necessary, so their nature may not be as aligned with their Superior as angels are. On the other hand, I doubt if the average demon *has* a choice of switching Superiors -- DPs jealously guard their power, and none of them will want to lose a useful servitor. On the other hand, they might be willing to *trade* servitors to another Superior -- it's one good way of cleaning out the deadwood.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 97 13:14 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? >> > Okay, good point, but avoids the larger problem. Do you want to >> > rationalize why Harry, Kyriotate of Jordi, is just as able to react >> > in his 3-toed sloth host as in his hummingbird? >> >> Presumably for the same reason that a Str 8 celestial in a little girl's >> body can outwrestle a Str 4 celestial in a big bruiser's. This already >> shows that vessels (and, by extension, hosts) aren't bound by the >> constraints of the type of physical body. > >Hosts aren't vessels. Vessels might be specially built to handle the >extra strength. Hosts are built like they are built. But hosts aren't built not to eat and sleep, either, but they take on those properties when inhabited by a celestial. For the time being, I'm treating a host exactly the same as a vessel in my games -- the only open question is the hit points computation. >> Personally, I kinda like the surreal image of a high-agility Kyriotate >> inhabiting a Galapagos tortoise. Imagine the sheer disbelief of the >> unscrupulous collector as the huge reptile suddenly bursts into a full-out >> charge and scales the nearest outcropping for safety. > >Then let the Kyriotate suppliment the stats at a 3 for 2 rate, like I >suggested when I proposed my idea. I just don't like that being the >default - it takes uniqueness out of vessels. I don't see a problem here. Also, anything that requires major bookkeeping every time one of the little body-hoppers switches hosts is a pain -- keeping track of a Kyrio's free Forces is already enough trouble. All the Kyrios I've seen in play so far (including mine) switch vessels at the drop of a hat, which is the way it should be, in my opinion. I don't want game mechanics slowing this down. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 10:23:56 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> Changing nature (was - Hire Purchase of Lilim) >I wonder - can Choir/Band be changed, except to it's opposite? And >how common is it? I would say that only a Superior could do it and it wouldn't be all that often since the only way I can think that they could do it would be to shred the Celestial into its component Forces and reassemble them. So it's not really a change in nature but a distruction of one Celestial and construction of another. >For that matter, how often do Celestials change >Superiors. > Depends on campaign, I suppose. I would say very rarely. Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 10:40:32 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... >>Does the Geas simply fail, because it was the Kyrio that was Geased, not >>the host? > >The Geas-hook... >#1: won't lead to the host, it will lead to the Kyrio. (Or the >nearest bit of it or something.) >#2: (assuming she didn't use the hook to trackdown) won't invoke at all. >It will remain inert and the host will be going, "huh? do I know you?" > >How's that? > I like that. Than the Lilim gets to wonder just *who* she has her line in. Though she would probably get a few clues by the nature of the Need. Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 97 14:09 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... >> >Does the Geas simply fail, because it was the Kyrio that was Geased, not >> >the host? >> The Geas-hook... >> #2: (assuming she didn't use the hook to trackdown) won't invoke at all. >> It will remain inert and the host will be going, "huh? do I know you?" > I don't think Geas hooks can reasonably be used to track someone >down...that's too much overlap with the Cherub/Djinn Resonance. I believe this is already canon passed on from the Superiors by John, some time ago. The problem is that it's much too easy to weasel out if the Lilim does *not* have such an ability. Remember, she can't track *anyone*, just someone she has a Geas on, and even then only with the intent to invoke the Geas. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 97 13:59 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Geases >>I don't think any Geas should inflict dissonance unless the task is >>*not* being worked on. As written, punishment is inflicted "up front", >>and only goes away when the Lilim finishes. This is particularly >>problematic if a Free Lilim's Geas is to "serve Superior X" for a month. >>The Lilim carrying the automatic dissonance from this until the end of >>the month has her resonance impaired, making the service that much less >>useful. > >Well the Lilim will have the Discord, but she'll only get the dissonance >*after* the first time period, by which time she's supposed to have the >task done under the standard rules. That's the way I'd do it, too, but I recall that it doesn't actually read that way in the book. I'm sure Elizabeth can say for sure. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:20:07 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... >>>Pray tell, how does this response help things in the slightest? I get the distinct feeling that I'm being mocked and that's the surest way to get me pissed off.<<< One of the most interesting things about online communications is the way people can read totally different things into a message. I thought he was just laughing because the idea was amusing. I think you should chill out. - -David http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/innomine.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:20:08 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Lilim Geases >>>One more thing I've been thinking about as a house rule is that dissonance (or damage) from Geases shouldn't be curable -- it's not really an instantaneous thing like normal dissonance, but an ongoing process. This precludes the trick of going into a Tether once a month to get the dissonance from your Geas/4 removed, and makes ignoring a Geas/6 a nastier proposition....<<< It takes a week to remove a note of dissonance in a Tether. If you want to constantly spend 25% of your time just working off dissonance....and how many Seneschals will put up with that? - -David htttp://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/innomine.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 09:37:14 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... On Aug 26, 6:17pm, Walter Milliken wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... > >> But isn't it weird that Ofanim don't get any bonus to Driving? > > > > That's a not very clearly worded section in the Ofanim > >description. The resonance mentions 'any roll against Agility > >itself or an associated skill'. It should specifically include > >Driving and specifically disallow Agility skills like Throwing. > >If it looks like motion and feels like motion, it's probably > >motion. > > Last time I looked, Throwing tended to involve motion.... Blargh! So does Large Weapon (you have to move the weapon), Ranged Weapon (moving this bullet into that guy), Tracking (hmmm, we want to move where they did to follow them), Singing (gotta move that air past the lips in a certain way), etc. (Sorry, I got silly there near the end! ;) ) The tack I was taking with the Ofanim resonance was it involved moving the _Ofanim_. Swimming, Running, Driving, Climbing, etc all fit. Escape and Dodge barely do (you really don't go anywhere with these skills). Throwing does not. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 97 14:21 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Lilith's Potence {David:] >Sorry, but I repeat: if Princes could slap Geases on angels at will, they >would. For that matter, I kind of doubt Superiors can easily slap *any* >kind of Discord on someone else's Servitors. I agree, in general. But I think the original question at issue was Lilith putting Geases on her newly-created daughters, not random angels. She's certainly got a legitimate connection to *them*. Or were you referring to the notion of Lilith invoking "hooks" on angels that had been traded to her? There's no problem in that case either, since she's not doing it "out of the blue", but has a legitimate connection to the victim (the hook). I do agree that Lilith can't just walk up to J. Random-iel and slap a Geas on him. That way lies system chaos.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 14:19:33 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... At 9:58 AM +0000 8/27/97, Leathal Weapon wrote: [...] >I also think a Lilim would 'know' who her geas was held by. So if s >he went up to the person, before she would even ask for the geas to >be fulfilled, she would realise that this isn't the right person. I might give her a Perception roll, myself. She'll certainly realize that the Geas/hook isn't "biting" at all, though, once she *tries* to invoke it! - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 14:51:54 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Geases >[Said Renegade has already been thrown into Geas-conflict, too! >(Feast of Blades (not yet finished): Amanda got a blackmail >Geas/6 on her... Jean's instructions: Destroy the dagger. >Amanda's: Bring it to me... Owie. Bezekial *might* have been >able to say something like, "I'm sure it's okay if you give it >to her and then take it away again real fast," though.)] ]] > The geas doesn't say anything about not bringing it into Amanda's back does it? Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 14:52:23 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> New Drugs >>> By the way, the caffeine analog in chocolate is named theobromine because >>> the Latin name for chocolate is Theobroma. Broma means food; most people on >>> this list should know what Theo means. Chocolate is God's Food, or so its >>> namer thought. >> >> Damn straight. O=) > >No argument here! > We're agreed here. So.... What Choir is the Angel of Chocolate? Mercurian of Eli? Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 20:01:29 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... At 10:40 AM -0400 8/27/97, Jeff Miller wrote: >>>Does the Geas simply fail, because it was the Kyrio that was Geased, not >>>the host? >> >>The Geas-hook... >>#1: won't lead to the host, it will lead to the Kyrio. (Or the >>nearest bit of it or something.) >>#2: (assuming she didn't use the hook to trackdown) won't invoke at all. >>It will remain inert and the host will be going, "huh? do I know you?" >> >>How's that? >> >I like that. > >Than the Lilim gets to wonder just *who* she has her line in. Shedite, Kyrio, or someone with Song of Possession. Looks like a celestial to *her*... >Though she would probably get a few clues by the nature of the Need. One hopes, one does hope... Of course, there was the obnoxious thing that my GM did... Resonate the AWOL Archangel (long story, don't ask), and what do we get? A lousy 2 check digit, that's what we get. Need? A new drummer.... (Lilim goes out back and pounds head against wall.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 20:02:37 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... At 9:37 AM -0400 8/27/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >On Aug 26, 6:17pm, Walter Milliken wrote: >> Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... >> >> But isn't it weird that Ofanim don't get any bonus to Driving? >> > >> > That's a not very clearly worded section in the Ofanim >> >description. The resonance mentions 'any roll against Agility >> >itself or an associated skill'. It should specifically include >> >Driving and specifically disallow Agility skills like Throwing. >> >If it looks like motion and feels like motion, it's probably >> >motion. >> >> Last time I looked, Throwing tended to involve motion.... > > Blargh! So does Large Weapon (you have to move the >weapon), Ranged Weapon (moving this bullet into that guy), >Tracking (hmmm, we want to move where they did to follow >them), Singing (gotta move that air past the lips in a >certain way), etc. (Sorry, I got silly there near the >end! ;) ) > The tack I was taking with the Ofanim resonance >was it involved moving the _Ofanim_. Swimming, Running, >Driving, Climbing, etc all fit. Escape and Dodge barely >do (you really don't go anywhere with these skills). >Throwing does not. Self-movement, rather than moving other things. Escape and Dodge both involve freedom of self-movement. Throwing doesn't involve self-motion from point A to point B. Probably works better when doing GURPS In Nomine. Just boost DX and have done. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 20:31:43 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Gaming War Stories (Re: IN> Lilim Geases) At 2:51 PM -0400 8/27/97, Jeff Miller wrote: >>[Said Renegade has already been thrown into Geas-conflict, too! >>(Feast of Blades (not yet finished): Amanda got a blackmail >>Geas/6 on her... Jean's instructions: Destroy the dagger. >>Amanda's: Bring it to me... Owie. Bezekial *might* have been >>able to say something like, "I'm sure it's okay if you give it >>to her and then take it away again real fast," though.)] ]] >> >The geas doesn't say anything about not bringing it into Amanda's back does it? She was considering that interpretation, oh definitely! Unfortunately, her angel-companions didn't like the notion. She managed to hold off (they wouldn't tell her they'd gotten the dagger) until it was displayed at the Tether. Then she made a grab for it. ("I'm sorry. I *have* to.") The dagger got yanked upstairs, and the Renegade, sprawled on the floor (let the Ofanite do the Dodging...) was going "YES!" in satisfaction. She was really annoyed by that blackmail Geas, she was. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 02:28:20 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> New Drugs On Wed, 27 Aug 1997 14:52:23, Jeff Miller wrote: >We're agreed here. So.... > >What Choir is the Angel of Chocolate? Mercurian of Eli? Has to work for Novalis. Mercurian is a good thought but other possibilities are: Seraph: "The Most Holy" :) Elohite: Chocolate calms people, making them less emotional. All in all, I think a Mercurian would be more interested in person-to- person Words. My guess is an Elohite of Novalis has the Word Chocolate, unless an angel of Marc got there first. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 14:52:10 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Hire Purchase of Lilim At 12:50 AM +0000 8/27/97, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: [...] >Now, Lilith might be able to force somebody to submit to a Geas by >threat of force, but I doubt she could simply force one on somebody. >Otherwise, she could easily produce one of the first Dark Malakim - >just go up to one, slap it with the Geasa "Don't kill Demon X" and >"Accompany Demon X. Keep away from any Celestial but Demon X for Y >period of time", and watch them rack up the dissonance. Yeah, but they don't fall -- they just rack up discord... What would anyone want with a quivering mass of Vestigal Numinous Corpus, Stigmata, Berserk, Merciful...? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 14:14:07 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... At 12:50 AM +0000 8/27/97, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: >> Speaking of Lilim and Kyrios, what happens when a Lilim does a >> favor for a Kyrio -- not realizing that it IS a Kyrio, of course >> -- and then tries to call in the Geas once the Kyrio has left for >> another host? > >What happens if the reverse happens - Lilim Geas-hooks a mortal, >Kyriotate possesses mortal later, and Lilim tries to use the Geas. Same thing -- the Geas won't invoke, and may lead to the Marches if she uses the hook for tracking!! (Image of a Lilim smacking a Geas, trying to make it start...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 14:10:08 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Changing nature (was - Hire Purchase of Lilim) At 9:44 AM -0400 8/27/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >> I wonder - can Choir/Band be changed, except to it's opposite? And >> how common is it? For that matter, how often do Celestials change >> Superiors. > >Without dismantling the celestial and making a new celestial, no. Lucifer might be able to do it, for a demon. Maybe. You could ask... >Superior swapping is _very_ rare! One presumes (hopes!) that celestials are generally happy with the Word that created them! - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 14:12:28 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Jordi and Domestic Pets. At 8:58 AM -0500 8/27/97, Colin Fredericks wrote: >>This assumes Evolution in the In Nomine Universe. I would think Creationism >>is more likely. The dinosaurs could be an "old earth" theory or a trick of >>Lucifer's to help Science "debunk" God. > >Except! > >Except the passage where it says that Ofanim of Jordi miss the pteranadons >being around. Maybe it's errata, but it's there. Maybe it's a combination -- evolution, possibly for everything *but* humans? So the celestials got to play around with dinosaurs for a while, and then proto-humans appeared, and this was interesting, so the Divine fast-forwarded some evolution and created a few full homo sapiens to examine... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 97 14:07 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Hire Purchase of Lilim >Now, Lilith might be able to force somebody to submit to a Geas by >threat of force, but I doubt she could simply force one on somebody. >Otherwise, she could easily produce one of the first Dark Malakim - >just go up to one, slap it with the Geasa "Don't kill Demon X" and >"Accompany Demon X. Keep away from any Celestial but Demon X for Y >period of time", and watch them rack up the dissonance. Nope -- all that produces is a Malakite with a *lot* of Discord. Probably the Malakite would do something suicidal before long, unless forbidden to do so. Otherwise it just turns into a pathetic whimpering mass of Discords until someone puts it out of its misery. In any case, I don't think Lilith can do this and be consistent with her Word -- she'd have to do a massive set of favors for the Malakite first, before she'd have enough of a hold to legitimately claim this sort of return favor. Anyway, I think all this started in regards to Lilith putting her Geases on the Lilim she creates, which is an entirely different matter -- from her point of view, they owe her for their creation. They can pay this debt either by serving, or by ceasing to exist -- they're free to choose. It's not a one-sided Geas situation like the Malakite example above (at least from Lilith's point of view, the Lilim in question might have a different opinion). - ---Walter ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #316 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.