From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Aug 29 13:35:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA07429 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 13:35:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA05441 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 13:03:08 -0500 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 13:03:08 -0500 Message-Id: <199708291803.NAA05441@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #318 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, August 29 1997 Volume 01 : Number 318 In this digest: Re: IN> Lilim Geases Re: IN> New Drugs Re: IN> Lilim Geases Re: Gaming War Stories (Re: IN> Lilim Geases) Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... Re: IN> Lilim Geases Re: IN> Spare Vessels Re: IN> Roles Re: IN> Will the real Elvis please stand up? (story seed) IN> Lilith's Potence Re: IN> Kyriosity Killed the Kat IN> Zero-G Ofanim IN> Lilith's Potence IN> Lilim, Lilim, Lilim.... IN> In: Dark Malakim Re: IN> Smut (and nothing but) Re: IN> Re: Changing nature (was - Hire Purchase of Lilim) Re: IN> Jordi and Domestic Pets. Re: IN> Lilim, Lilim, Lilim.... Re: IN> Roles Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... Re: IN> Re: Changing nature (was - Hire Purchase of Lilim) Re: IN> Smut (and nothing but) Re: IN> Smut (and nothing but) Re: IN> Jordi and Domestic Pets. Re: IN> Religion vs Reality Re: IN> Jordi and Domestic Pets. Re: IN> Kyriosity Killed the Kat Re: IN> Smut (and nothing but) Re: IN> Jordi and Domestic Pets. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:58:05 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Geases At 04:39 AM 8/19/97 -0400, you wrote: >>>>I think that was with the assumption that either the Geas level would be >reduced if tested, or that the Will roll would be better for the Geasee.<<< > > >I still don't like it. Geases should be binding when the task is >announced-- they shouldn't be blank checks. If you put a Geas/6 on someone, >and turn it into an unspecified, pre-tested Geas/4, that's still a pretty >powerful effect! > Especially if it's something that the person finds truely objectionable. If you tell a servator of Destiny that he's going to owe you a favor in the future, he's likely to resist. If you tell him to get a bunch of friends, dress in white robes and hoods and slaughter the familey of a child who would be the next Martin Luther King, the Servator of Destiny would resist *and* blow all his Essense. In the first case, you come back later and tell him to don the hoods and there would be nothing he could do about it! That would just be too easy. The angels would have already lost. Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 23:40:11 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> New Drugs On Thu, 28 Aug 1997 17:49:39 -0400, "C. J. Hunter" wrote: >I would think chocolate inspires the emotion "pleasure." (though I realize that >single word does not do the feeling justice;) An Elohite could indulge, but >shouldn't make too many decisions under the influence.... I would say it's calming--a euphoric--thus making it less likely that decisions would be made emotionally, especially from hate or anger. >> All in all, I think a Mercurian would be more interested in person-to- >> person Words. My guess is an Elohite of Novalis has the Word Chocolate, >> unless an angel of Marc got there first. > >Marc's angel would probably have the Word of Chocolate *bars*, referring to teh >production and marketing of the stuff. Or just "Candy". What a great way to get people to pay more for sugar. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 11:19:45 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Geases >>I still don't like it. Geases should be binding when the task is >>announced-- they shouldn't be blank checks. If you put a Geas/6 on someone, >>and turn it into an unspecified, pre-tested Geas/4, that's still a pretty >>powerful effect! > >Yeah, but it doesn't let you do anything more than you could have asked >the guy for, if you'd asked something specific in the first place -- in >fact, with the level reduction, it's less. And he'd *still* have failed >the roll, since the task itself doesn't generate any modifiers to the >Will roll, just the Geas level. I don't see this as unbalancing, in >fact I see it as favoring the victim (due to the level reduction). > My main problem wiht that is that is does *not* favor the victim. For some tasks, the victim would blow Essense. For others, he wouldn't. How does the victim know whether to blow the Essence on a "Testing." The Testing changes the behavior pattern that seems to be indicated in the books. >Also, this *is* the way Lilith's Geases on Lilim work -- an unspecified >future task. It seems reasonable that Lilim can get these from their >victims, too. > But did anyone *ever* get a chance to resist Lilith's Geases? I'd be more likely to classify her, as a Superior, to be a special case; not an example. Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:03:22 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: Gaming War Stories (Re: IN> Lilim Geases) At 08:31 PM 8/27/97 -0400, you wrote: >At 2:51 PM -0400 8/27/97, Jeff Miller wrote: >>>[Said Renegade has already been thrown into Geas-conflict, too! >>>(Feast of Blades (not yet finished): Amanda got a blackmail >>>Geas/6 on her... Jean's instructions: Destroy the dagger. >>>Amanda's: Bring it to me... Owie. Bezekial *might* have been >>>able to say something like, "I'm sure it's okay if you give it >>>to her and then take it away again real fast," though.)] ]] >>> >>The geas doesn't say anything about not bringing it into Amanda's back does it? > >She was considering that interpretation, oh definitely! Unfortunately, >her angel-companions didn't like the notion. She managed to hold >off (they wouldn't tell her they'd gotten the dagger) until it was >displayed at the Tether. Then she made a grab for it. ("I'm sorry. >I *have* to.") The dagger got yanked upstairs, and the Renegade, >sprawled on the floor (let the Ofanite do the Dodging...) was >going "YES!" in satisfaction. > >She was really annoyed by that blackmail Geas, she was. > At least it worked out in the end. Has your group decided to pay this demon a visit? Seems a good way of resolving *that* thread as well. Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:16:24 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... At 08:01 PM 8/27/97 -0400, you wrote: >At 10:40 AM -0400 8/27/97, Jeff Miller wrote: >>>>Does the Geas simply fail, because it was the Kyrio that was Geased, not >>>>the host? >>> >>>The Geas-hook... >>>#1: won't lead to the host, it will lead to the Kyrio. (Or the >>>nearest bit of it or something.) >>>#2: (assuming she didn't use the hook to trackdown) won't invoke at all. >>>It will remain inert and the host will be going, "huh? do I know you?" >>> >>>How's that? >>> >>I like that. >> >>Than the Lilim gets to wonder just *who* she has her line in. > >Shedite, Kyrio, or someone with Song of Possession. Looks like >a celestial to *her*... > Yep. Barring the occasional identical twin, Etherial or Stupid-Superior-Trick, that's a pretty safe guess. >>Though she would probably get a few clues by the nature of the Need. > >One hopes, one does hope... Of course, there was the obnoxious >thing that my GM did... Resonate the AWOL Archangel (long >story, don't ask), and what do we get? A lousy 2 check digit, >that's what we get. Need? A new drummer.... (Lilim goes out >back and pounds head against wall.) > He did it on purpose, you know.... Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:50:21 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Geases What this means in effect is that Geases *are* freely tradeable, but if a non-Lilim is buying/bartering for a Geas, he'll have to take into account the fact that he can't enforce it if the subject chooses to resist. So Geases would only be valuable to non-Lilim in the case of a subject who's not expected to resist, otherwise he'll also have to contract for the services of the Lilim (or another Lilim) to invoke it. This reduces the trading aspects somewhat, but doesn't close them off completely, keeps Lilim as the valuable purveyors of Geases, and preserves the element of chance that makes Geases risky. Then Geases still have a value to non-Lilim the same way a piece of paper with Franklin's face on it has value. It isn't in and of itself valuable but it can be traded to someone who *does* value it. Thus, non-Lilim could hold them or act as brokers. Allowing non-Lilim to invoke without enforcement makes them even *more* valuable to non-Lilim. Personally, though I would eliminate this as well. The non-Lilim can't invoke it but if the "victim" does the assigned task then the holder gives the Geas to the victim. Thus, we don't change the nature of the Geas by having it non-enforced and we get closer to mythological and fantasy sources. You also have the added complication. What if you do the task but the guy *doesn't* give you the Geas? This seems more like their kinda deal to me. Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 97 17:59 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Spare Vessels >> Huh? I think there was a ruling (from Moriah or Derek?) a long time >> back that said that you *could* switch to another vessel after being >> killed (i.e., as a dying action). The drawback being that your new >> vessel is right where the old one got toasted. The main advantage of a >> Body Bag is that the new vessel *isn't* in the line of fire. >> >> Or so I recall.... > > This would make Trauma almost impossible for smart celestials. >Why wouldn't every celestial take the time to have one or two >cheap (probably animal) and fast alternate vessels? A cat or a >bird for example. > Ah well. I'm going to let my ruling stand unless Derek or >Moriah speaks up. There has to be _some_ drama to combat after >all! ;) Finally had time to dig through my archives, and unearthed the following bits of presumed-canon: - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Excerpt from a message from Derek to the IN list on 13 Feb 97: >One thing I don't understand. In the stories (I know, I'm harping unintentional pun>) Tariel and Charlie both bought it, but left their >vessels behind. Yet when a Celestial has multiple vessels, he just pays >the Essence and "transforms" into the alternate form. Tariel didn't have an extra vessel, so he was toast. Charlie kept his extra vessel in his body bag back at the ranch. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Excerpt from a message from Derek to the IN list on 14 Feb 97: >>Tariel didn't have an extra vessel, so he was toast. Charlie kept his >>extra >>vessel in his body bag back at the ranch. > >Yes, but they both left a steaming corpus behind. Does that mean that >Charlie is out of luck to use that one again? If every time they leave a >corpse behind when they abandon one vessel for another, then no wonder >they have trouble keeping roles! I don't think you're getting it. Tariel didn't willingly leave his vessel behind, he was beaten out of it. If he'd had the vessel of an eagle to hop into, he could have, thus saving the "life" of his human vessel (because it would vanish when he assumed his other vessel) and soaring into the sky away from the two demons. Unfortunately, that would mean leaving his human charge to the wolves, which would be unlike him. So to recap, they only left steaming corpus behind because they weren't moving to other "offline" vessels, they got the hell beaten out of one another. Tariel was killed outright, and Charlie was about to die. If Charlie'd had his other vessel bought, but disincorporate (instead of in the body bag), he could've switched into it on the spot leaving no corpse behind. There're times that the body bag trick is cool, like when you get really pulped and you don't want to worry about crawling your way back to Earth, and there're times that it can cost you a vessel. Charlie lost that bet. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Excerpt from a message from Moriah to the IN list on 28 Feb 97 [This is the canon on Saints and Sorcerers, I think.] 3. Death. For celestials, it's just a broken vessel. They might switch vessels, inhabit another human, or suffer a little Trauma before coming back. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 20:47:23 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Roles > Now, which superior would be most likely to try to get an angel or > a demon elected? Hmmm... Asmodeus, Malphas, Nybbas, or maybe Kronos. On the angelic side, Eli, Marc, or maybe Yves. > (I'm thinking Impudite of Kobal, personally.) I don't see the humor necessary to make this a goal he would follow. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com I seem to have forgotten what families are actually for...Families seem to be a form of SM relationships without safewords. - Neil Hudson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 20:47:23 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Will the real Elvis please stand up? (story seed) > > When he is ready, he makes his move (most likely to try to start with > > Eli, as its unlikely that anyone would be able to summon the original) > > Eli's invocation roll can be relatively easy--the target number can be as > large as 6, plus a max of +6 for a 12! (are invocation modifiers cumlative? > i.e. 6 +1s = +6 ? if so, it could be even easier to summon Eli.) He visits > his servitors all the time, granted not when they expect it, or on any > regular basis, but more often than Janus, Michael or Yves... I'd say a good first bet would be Yves, but not to his own angels. Instead, have him appear to a party without a Servator of Destiny (who might have some experience with him), and act inscrutable. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com I seem to have forgotten what families are actually for...Families seem to be a form of SM relationships without safewords. - Neil Hudson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 21:03:36 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Lilith's Potence >>>"At Will" is different than "takes enough effort that doing it regularly will make you a target for the other Princes."<<< No, it's not. If Superiors COULD do this, they will. Risking the wrath/counterattacks of other Superiors might make it less frequent, but it would still be done, and often enough to be a problem. >>>Other options: It alerts the celestial's Superior ("A Superior is messing with my Servitor!"); It makes you slightly vunerable while you do it; It makes more noise than Baal dropping a planet-buster from orbit; It makes noise *and* makes you vunerable; It makes noise *and* makes you vunerable *AND* alerts the Servitor's Superior!<<< I prefer the first option: they can't do it. >>>Remember -- the Superiors are all but omnipotent from the viewpoint of lowly Servitors. But they have each other as equals, so you *can* say that something is too hard/dangerous for them to bother with, though still *possible*.<<< You can also say there are certain things Superiors can't do, even to lesser celestials. For example, if a Superior can give a Servitor Discord, presumably he can give a Servitor dissonance as well. So if a Superior can also give *other* celestials Discord with a wave of their hands-- oops, watch those angels Fall! >>>Same way the Internet works, except they don't have laws to prevent them from nuking AGIS. If you go around being too much of a pain, everybody teams up against you and you turn into a smoking spot on the floor.<<< I dunno, I still get annoying spam every week, and I see a lot of inveterate cheeseballs on the Internet. Which goes back to my point-- "peer pressure" may reduce the incidents, but it won't eliminate them, and they'll still be frequent enough to be annoying. >>> Not equal in all areas, but they have to have some minimum power to remain Princes. (And they derive some minimum power from *being* Princes -- look at Furfur.)<<< Of course-- I never said Lilith doesn't have "some minimum power". >>>If anything, Furfur should be weakest. Among other things, he *owes* Lilith! (Being a Prince doesn't allow him to remove the Geas upon him?(!) )<<< Certainly, and I think it's implied that all the Superiors in the rulebook are more powerful than the lesser Superiors who are being introduced subsequently. This is another reason why I don't go along with the idea of Superiors being near-omnipotent. They are powerful enough to be virtually off the scale for PCs...but they can be balked, even harmed, and they have to start somewhere. Fuhrfur only had 15 Forces when he became a Prince-- becoming a Prince MAY have automatically given him a few more, but he's still way behind the others. I still believe Lilith is probably the weakest of the major Superiors, though. But I don't think the exact ranking is something that will ever be officially quantified. >>>And Kobal stays alive because Lucy likes him... Otherwise, everyone would gang up and pound him. (I'm actually of the opinion that he and Lil are of similar power; Nybbas is young and growing, but doesn't have the same power as the old hands like Andre and Asmodeus.<<< Kobal's not a youngster either. But again, I don't think power necessarily relates directly to age. Haagenti is most definitely more powerful than a lot of younger demons-- heck, a lot of his *Servitors* are probably older than him! Nybbas is young, but with his Word, he may already rank as one of the biggies. (In fact, see above- we already know there are other Archangels and Princes besides those in the basic rulebook, the basic ones are just the ones currently most powerful. Which means Nybbas, like Haagenti, leaped past many older Superiors in power level.) >>>Of the one-on-one matches of "fight to the death," I think Kronos, Baal, Asmodeus, and maybe Belial are the "sure bets for surviving" no matter who they're fighting against.<<< Belial also qualifies as "So crazy that even if you manage to finish him off, you probably won't walk away." >>>IOW, I don't think you can stick any of the Princes into a weakest/strongest scale. They have strengths and weaknesses, and any conflict between them will depend on whether they're matching strength to strength or weakness to weaknesses.<<< Superiors wouldn't stay Superior long if they made a habit of pitting themselves directly against other Superiors. - -David http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/innomine.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 14:44:52 -0400 (EDT) From: IQJason@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Kyriosity Killed the Kat Walt Mazur "The one problem with this view is that Kyrio hosts have no memory of what happened. Shedim share their hosts with their host's souls, which may be why they're hard to Djinn-track (and presumably track similarly). But Kyrios send their hosts into dreamland." Oh, I understand. I'm thinking of *others* telling the host about what they did. "So, Mr. Smith, what was going through your mind as you saved those two children from drowning..." yours, - -J ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 21:03:33 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Zero-G Ofanim >>>What about zero G situations where you throw something to give yourself velocity?<<< I think that would be Acrobatics skill, not Throwing. - -David http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/innomine.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 14:13:00 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Lilith's Potence >>>But I think the original question at issue was Lilith putting Geases on her newly-created daughters, not random angels. She's certainly got a legitimate connection to *them*.<<< I was responding to the person who said Lilith could slap fifty Geas/6's on anyone she wants, at will. I have no problem with a Superior automatically putting Geases on celestials they create (the debt you owe them is kind of obvious...) Nor for any Superior using hooks that get traded to them. I don't think Superiors can put Discords on other celestials at will, though, especially not Geases. Not even Lilith. - -David http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/innomine.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:36:49 -0400 (EDT) From: JosephMoon@aol.com Subject: IN> Lilim, Lilim, Lilim.... To simplify my game, I think I'll just warn my players there are Malakim who have vowed to destroy any Lilim who make any deals so complicated that they make Malakims' heads hurt. Mind you, that covers ALOT of deals...... JosephMoon@AOL.com http://members.aol.com/josephmoon/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 11:44:11 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: IN> In: Dark Malakim Walter Milliken pointed out; > >Now, Lilith might be able to force somebody to submit to a Geas by > >threat of force, but I doubt she could simply force one on somebody. > >Otherwise, she could easily produce one of the first Dark Malakim - > Nope -- all that produces is a Malakite with a *lot* of Discord. I keep wondering what it is that makes Malakim so buoyant...and then it just occurred to me that they run up Discord the same way demons do. What about the idea that the reason Malakim can't fall is because, technically, they already HAVE? God just designed their Resonance on the dark side from the beginning, and no one's ever TRIED to Redeem one... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 12:14:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Hobbes Subject: Re: IN> Smut (and nothing but) According to Nathaniel Eliot: > > In this neck of the woods, men get Pap smears not uncommonly. > > (Anal Pap smears, that is.) They're used for the same purpose... > > Oh, thank you. That was just a yummy bit of info... There's a Demon in there somewhere you can be sure..... the question is which word does s/he serve? Dan ozdowski - -- /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\//\ Beware the single most feared person in life..... The Articulate Incompetent ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 97 12:10 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Re: Changing nature (was - Hire Purchase of Lilim) >>One presumes (hopes!) that celestials are generally happy with the >>Word that created them! > > Which is why I think changing superiors (or attempting to) would be >more common among angels who weren't directrly created by their Superiors >(though still pretty damn rare). Angels created by other, non-Superior >angels,by voluntarily splitting off their own forces and making a Reliever. >Not being individually hand-crafted by the superior they serve, I see sucj >angels as being less likely to be content in their positions overall. Of >course, this would also make them more likely to Fall, by far the easiest >way of switching Superiors. I've been thinking that Relievers are more likely to switch Superiors, especially while very young -- they're not really fully part of the Symphony yet, as full-fledged angels. I guess I have this picture in my head of lots of Relievers drifting around Heaven, and when someone needs one for something, they just ask the nearest one. After a while, as the Reliever matures, it tends to settle and hang around the cathedral of one particular Archangel whose Word interests it, gradually becoming attuned to that Word. This model results in even Reliever-born angels being relatively content with their Superiors. But I agree that they'd be more likely to be discontented than an purpose-made, AA-created, angel. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 23:57:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Jordi and Domestic Pets. On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > For well over a hundred years, Christians and Jews have had many > different schemes for reconciling the Genesis account with modern > geology, cosmology, and biology. IN could fit in with several of > them. I'm reminded of a short story by Asimov.... it hinges on the premise that God told the creation story to Moses. Moses is talking to God, presumably after the 10 Commandments have been given. "I will tell you of the creation," God begins one day. "Ten billion years ago..." "Ten -billion-?" Moses interrupts. "I can't wrap my brain around a number that large. And if I can't grasp it, your people certainly won't be able to." God thinks for a moment. "Hmm. All right, let's start over. 'On the first day...'" - -- Casca (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:35:39 -0400 From: Highway Star Subject: Re: IN> Lilim, Lilim, Lilim.... At 13:36 -0400 8/28/97, JosephMoon@aol.com wrote: >To simplify my game, I think I'll just warn my players there are Malakim who >have vowed to destroy any Lilim who make any deals so complicated that they >make Malakims' heads hurt. Mind you, that covers ALOT of deals...... Hahaha! That's great! I'll definitely have to try to convince the Malakim in my game that having a vow like that is A Good Thing. Of course, they'd have to vow to kill Bright Lilim who do that, too - most Lilim are already demons, and Malakim have a vow to kill demons, so otherwise it's redudant. SeanMike - ---- Sean Michael Whipkey, smw4s@virginia.edu Weldon Cooper Center for Public Service, Publications Div. 804/924-4185 (or -4188) voicenet, 804/982-5536 fax http://www.virginia.edu/~cpserv/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:33:43 -0400 From: Highway Star Subject: Re: IN> Roles At 20:47 +0000 8/28/97, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > >> (I'm thinking Impudite of Kobal, personally.) > >I don't see the humor necessary to make this a goal he would follow. > I was simply imagining it as an elaborate practical joke - maybe one involving the resources of an entire nation. Of course, there's always the possibility of a Shedim deciding to try to take control of the president. I wonder if any celestials hang around the White House, maybe as aids, trying to make sure neither side takes over the president. (I can see an Impudite of Kobal being one of the televangelists - he's getting a big laugh out of making Christianity look bad.) SeanMike - ---- Sean Michael Whipkey, smw4s@virginia.edu Weldon Cooper Center for Public Service, Publications Div. 804/924-4185 (or -4188) voicenet, 804/982-5536 fax http://www.virginia.edu/~cpserv/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:30:50 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... > Just in the hopes of seeing John explode.... At best, a muffled explosion... ;) There's a couple of _really_ hard Kyrio questions that I thought of and, thank God, no one has asked yet. Don't bother asking about them... I'm not telling! > > What about zero G situations where you throw something to give yourself > velocity? In this situation, I'd let the resonance work. (Don't _even_ ask about situations where you have to hit a button with a rock to start the jet engine... I ain't listening to such foolishness!) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:14:23 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Re: Changing nature (was - Hire Purchase of Lilim) On relievers as "baby angels": In "The Serpent Garden" by Judith Merkle Riley, one of the main characters is Hadriel, angel of art. The story is set in the Renaissance, and perhaps for that reason, Hadriel looks exactly like a Renaissance-art angel -- white robes & wings, delicate but androgynous beauty. Also a la Renaissance art, Hadriel is attended by a swarm of tiny, pigeon-winged "cherubs" or "putti" - -- the little Cupid-style angels. I know the art in the IN book seems to show relievers as delicate pixie-like things, but putti are at least as appropriate. Think of the contrast effect, if your angels have been going celestial much, and assuming forms like winged serpents, wheels of fire, surreal clouds of eyes and hands, to abruptly bring the Valentine squad fluttering on stage. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 08:42:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Dennis C Hwang Subject: Re: IN> Smut (and nothing but) On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, Hobbes wrote: > According to Nathaniel Eliot: > > > > In this neck of the woods, men get Pap smears not uncommonly. > > > (Anal Pap smears, that is.) They're used for the same purpose... > > > > Oh, thank you. That was just a yummy bit of info... > > There's a Demon in there somewhere you can be sure..... > the question is which word does s/he serve? Oh, probably Condyloma, demon of Squamous Intraepithelial Lesions. (Demon of Exfoliative Cytology?) ;) - --Dennis dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu xenopathologist at large! Deathwalker for President: for some *real* health care reform. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:26:59 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Smut (and nothing but) > > > In this neck of the woods, men get Pap smears not uncommonly. > > > (Anal Pap smears, that is.) They're used for the same purpose... > > > > Oh, thank you. That was just a yummy bit of info... > > There's a Demon in there somewhere you can be sure..... > the question is which word does s/he serve? Ignapius, Shedim of Kobal, who has the word Oversharing. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com That was too much information, Lalala-lalalala, We don't share your fasination, Lalala-lalalala, Please now end this conversation, Lalala-lalalala, Or there will be immolation, Lalala-lalalala. (Many thanks to Thetius for this song) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:27:00 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Jordi and Domestic Pets. > The role of celestials in all this is left wide-open. For instance, > if Jordi is in charge of the animal creation, does he direct its > evolution? Did he direct our evolution up to the creation of Adam > and feel really, personally affronted by the Fall of humanity, it > being his own project getting trashed? Did any diabolicals have > a chance to throw bugs into our genetic code? For that matter, how far along was the War when humans were created? Traditional accounts (ie - Old Testament) say that humans were the reason for the Fall. As I noted elsewhere, however, the Bible does not seem to represent the whole Truth to humanity. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com It is better to know even if the knowledge endures only for the moment that comes before destruction than to gain eternal life at the price of a dull and swinish lack of comprehension of a universe that swirls unseen before us in all its wonder. That wa s the choice of Achilles, and it is mine, too. - Isaac Asimov ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:27:00 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Religion vs Reality > > For well over a hundred years, Christians and Jews have had many > > different schemes for reconciling the Genesis account with modern > > geology, cosmology, and biology. IN could fit in with several of > > them. > > I'm reminded of a short story by Asimov.... it hinges on the > premise that God told the creation story to Moses. Close - it was Moses, having gotten a pretty good idea of how the universe worked, telling it to Aaron, and Aaron complaining he couldn't transcribe 10 billion years of history on the paper he had. That does bring up an interesting question, however: how much of religion (as created by Celestials) was designed to tell the Truth about the world, and how much of it was propaganda to help control people (for whatever purpose)? Obviously, it wasn't all Truth - the conflict between Bible and In Nomine canon is pretty wide, in places. And since the Bible isn't True, how can Dominic and Micheal (being Seraphs) support it, even indirectly? Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com It is better to know even if the knowledge endures only for the moment that comes before destruction than to gain eternal life at the price of a dull and swinish lack of comprehension of a universe that swirls unseen before us in all its wonder. That wa s the choice of Achilles, and it is mine, too. - Isaac Asimov ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 12:35:23 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Jordi and Domestic Pets. Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > For that matter, how far along was the War when humans were created? > Traditional accounts (ie - Old Testament) say that humans were the > reason for the Fall. As I noted elsewhere, however, the Bible does > not seem to represent the whole Truth to humanity. The Koran says humans were the reason for the Fall of Lucifer, but the Old Testament actually doesn't say much about it. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:36:44 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Kyriosity Killed the Kat > Walt Mazur >> "The one problem with this view is that Kyrio hosts have no memory of >>what happened. Shedim share their hosts with their host's souls, which And Jason replied; > Oh, I understand. I'm thinking of *others* telling the host about what they > did. "So, Mr. Smith, what was going through your mind as you saved those two That's a good thing to keep in mind, if a Kyrio's host remains significant in a game...given the strength of recent studies on false memories - showing that given an offhand statement or question about something that never happened, people can work themselves around to `remembering' it quite clearly within a couple weeks - I'd think that the combination of being told what happened under a Kyrio combined with the physical evidence of it having happened would lead to them remembering having actually done it pretty quickly... (eg.; you're not going to convince someone to a false memory of having saved their kids from a burning house last week, because it's too big and too recent. Tell someone they did it and present them the evidence of their slightly singed kids, the charred bathrobe they were wearing, and their burned down house, on the other hand, and they'll figure the trauma must have blocked it, and then gradually build up the `memory' of what it must have been like..) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 13:06:30 -0400 From: Highway Star Subject: Re: IN> Smut (and nothing but) At 11:26 +0000 8/29/97, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > >Ignapius, Shedim of Kobal, who has the word Oversharing. > Do youse guys wants me to break his knees or sumpin'? I'm just downs the street.:):) I think I get possessed by Shedim sometime, forcing me to say things that everyone REALLY didn't want to hear - but then again, I'd say it anyways normally.:) SeanMike - ---- Sean Michael Whipkey, smw4s@virginia.edu Weldon Cooper Center for Public Service, Publications Div. 804/924-4185 (or -4188) voicenet, 804/982-5536 fax http://www.virginia.edu/~cpserv/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:40:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Dennis C Hwang Subject: Re: IN> Jordi and Domestic Pets. On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > > Maybe it's a combination -- evolution, possibly for everything > > *but* humans? So the celestials got to play around with dinosaurs > > for a while, and then proto-humans appeared, and this was interesting, > > so the Divine fast-forwarded some evolution and created a few > > full homo sapiens to examine... > > Evolution/creation combinations I have encountered include: > > Divinely-directed: Adam was born of a just-barely-pre-human hominid. > > Spiritual: Adam was born as a pre-human hominid, but was given > a human-calibre soul (a force added?) as a mature adult. > > Resurrectional: Adam was a pre-human hominid who died and was > resurrected as the first human. > > "Narnia"-style: Adam was a pre-human hominid who was spiritually > and physically transformed into the first full human. Interesting ideas! > The role of celestials in all this is left wide-open. For instance, > if Jordi is in charge of the animal creation, does he direct its > evolution? Did he direct our evolution up to the creation of Adam > and feel really, personally affronted by the Fall of humanity, it > being his own project getting trashed? I wouldn't necessarily see Jordi as "directing" evolution necessarily; I think he probably just set the mechanisms in place and sat back. After all, evolution is simply the change in allele frequencies over time, but the selective advantage of the changing allele frequencies is determined by the manner in which they interact with the environment. And presumably, environmental conditions are some other Archangel's bailiwick... Which leads to a rather interesting idea. Perhaps Jordi turned his back on humanity at the point at which humans began to change the environment (on a large scale) to suit themselves, rather than adapting to suit the environment. And maybe Adam qualifies as the first human who understood that he, in fact, had this potential. Imagine: you've been sitting back, watching over the millennia as populations respond to changing environmental requirements, and suddenly, one group suddenly starts *changing the conditions of your experiment*! > Did any diabolicals have a chance to throw bugs into our genetic code? Oh, undoubtedly. I could see the propagation of various mutations throughout the ages as an ongoing battleground between Celestials and Diabolicals. "Hah! Watch this poor guy's red cells turn into rigid sickles!" "Oh, ho! Watch this guy's children resist malaria!" I understand _Waiting For The Galactic Bus_ and _The Snake Oil Wars_ by Parke Godwin deal with this idea, although I haven't gotten around to reading them yet... - --Dennis, aka Imago, Kyriotate of Jordi dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu xenopathologist at large! Deathwalker for President: for some *real* health care reform. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #318 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.