From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Aug 30 14:51:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA07835 for ; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 14:51:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA02660 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 14:30:23 -0500 Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 14:30:23 -0500 Message-Id: <199708301930.OAA02660@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #319 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, August 30 1997 Volume 01 : Number 319 In this digest: Re: IN> Religion vs Reality Re: IN> RELICS CONTEST Update Re: IN> Lilith's Potence Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... Re: IN> Lilim, Lilim, Lilim.... IN> Shameless Plug IN> Religion vs Reality Re: IN> Religion vs Reality Re: IN> Lilim Trackers IN> ghosts Re: IN> Lilim Trackers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 13:57:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Religion vs Reality On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > Close - it was Moses, having gotten a pretty good idea of how > the universe worked, telling it to Aaron, and Aaron complaining he > couldn't transcribe 10 billion years of history on the paper he had. Well, it was several years ago, and I only read it once. It's an accomplishment to remember it at all, really. > That does bring up an interesting question, however: how much of > religion (as created by Celestials) was designed to tell the Truth > about the world, and how much of it was propaganda to help control > people (for whatever purpose)? Obviously, it wasn't all Truth - the > conflict between Bible and In Nomine canon is pretty wide, in places. > And since the Bible isn't True, how can Dominic and Micheal (being > Seraphs) support it, even indirectly? The impression I got from reading IN was that there isn't a single religion or holy work that is 100% capital-t True. There are, however, several that come close enough to be acceptable: the Torah, the Bible and the Koran. These are supported because, while getting the facts wrong here and there, they point humanity in the right direction. Dominic and Michael support it because without the T-B-K, there'd be a lot more Soldiers od Hell and precious few Soldiers of Heaven. - -- Casca (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 15:32:08 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> RELICS CONTEST Update > For full details on the In Nomine Relics Contest, go to > http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/relics.html Question: When will we know whether or not our entry made it? Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com It is better to know even if the knowledge endures only for the moment that comes before destruction than to gain eternal life at the price of a dull and swinish lack of comprehension of a universe that swirls unseen before us in all its wonder. That wa s the choice of Achilles, and it is mine, too. - Isaac Asimov ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 97 15:34 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Lilith's Potence [David:] >I don't think Superiors can put Discords on other celestials at will, >though, especially not Geases. Not even Lilith. I generally agree, though not "especially Geases" -- many other Discords are nearly as much trouble, if not more so if selected properly. This also brings up the question of whether Superiors should be able to *remove* Discords from the servitor of another. The difference here is the cooperation of the celestial in question, I guess. Maybe it's still harder than fixing your own servitors (to whom you have a special connection) -- perhaps that's one reason why Redemption is so difficult. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 97 15:51 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... >> Just in the hopes of seeing John explode.... > > At best, a muffled explosion... ;) There's a couple >of _really_ hard Kyrio questions that I thought of and, thank >God, no one has asked yet. > Don't bother asking about them... I'm not telling! Oh, goody. Something to think about.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 97 15:50 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Lilim, Lilim, Lilim.... >Of course, they'd have to vow to kill Bright Lilim who do that, too - most >Lilim are already demons, and Malakim have a vow to kill demons, so >otherwise it's redudant. Uh uh. No donut. Malakim have a vow "to never suffer an evil to live", *not* to kill demons. Mind you, it *often* amounts to the same thing, except that it means Malakim are prone to kill evil humans just as often (or more so, since there are more of them around...). But a demon who isn't actively "evil" doesn't necessarily fall under a Malakite's vow. It's a subtle distinction (and Malakim aren't necessarily all that subtle...), but it's an important one to remember. On the other hand, it wouldn't be out of line for a PC Malakim to interpret that vow as "kill all demons". But it's not exactly the party line.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 17:17:29 -0400 (EDT) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: IN> Shameless Plug Okay, what the hell. I'm slowly adding things too it, but my game has a home page. And yeah, the GM is still getting the hang of the rules. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~zenith/in-nomine/ Emily K. Dresner, M.S.Eng. Computer Systems Consultant III Medical Center Information Technology Desktop Applications Team Current Quote: "Angels are just Demons not yet Fallen." - B. T. VandGrift ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 18:23:55 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Religion vs Reality >>>Obviously, it wasn't all Truth - the conflict between Bible and In Nomine canon is pretty wide, in places. And since the Bible isn't True, how can Dominic and Micheal (being Seraphs) support it, even indirectly?<<< They don't have to support it as literal Truth-- they can support it, as many Christians do, as being basically sound theologically, but not meant to be taken as God's exact words. Seraphim DO comprehend metaphor and allegory... - -David http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/innomine.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 21:52:22 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Religion vs Reality Nathaniel Eliot queried; > That does bring up an interesting question, however: how much of > religion (as created by Celestials) was designed to tell the Truth > about the world, and how much of it was propaganda to help control > people (for whatever purpose)? Obviously, it wasn't all Truth - the I tend to consider it largely `propaganda', though not necessarily for `control' purposes. (Well...alright, *I* think of it as having been for control purposes - Gods draw Essence from their worshippers, alive or dead, in my view...but the `canon' note is that Yves viewed it as a way to better people's lives.) In either case, I think it was originally carefully designed, written up, and disseminated, from which point..they've kept control of it as best they can. (The Pope is very probably in their employ, if not actually a Celestial himself..) The only real option I can see (proposed to me by MaBarry) for the Bible being Truth in In Nomine is that the Bible in the In Nomine universe isn't quite the same as it is in real life... > And since the Bible isn't True, how can Dominic and Micheal (being > Seraphs) support it, even indirectly? It's easy to support something without claiming it's True. For a cheap example, I support the movie Men In Black; it was fun. I don't think it's TRUE. For a better one, I support the Democratic party...not because I still believe they actually hold to much of what they stand for, but because they still tend to further the ends I want furthered. So Dominic may support Christianity as the `best' (a matter of opinion, not Truth) way for Angels to present themselves without having to support it as absolute The-Way-Things-Really-Are kind of Truth...and therefor still consider Islam heresy, NOT because it's more or less true, but because it counters what he sees as a primary tool for Good and thereby weakens the cause...in his opinion. Michael I don't remember particularly supporting it, except, presumably, for its military potential...(He used to muck about with a lot of the more primitive religions, after all...s'what that whole tribunal against him was about, along with vainglory, after all.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 10:18:26 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Trackers > At 12:22 AM -0600 8/27/97, Kingsley Lintz wrote: > > I don't think Geas hooks can reasonably be used to track someone > >down...that's too much overlap with the Cherub/Djinn Resonance. and Our Favorite Archangel replied; > Tough. Karakash canoned it a while back -- Lilim can use Geases > (and hooks) to track someone down. Once there, the Geas *MUST* Well, Karakash has been wrong before... I dunno..I'm REALLY not liking this. (Enough to feel compelled to respond, anyway, and I'm pretty sure I wasn't geased into it...) Granting that they don't get the `extra' information, you do realize this makes Lilim better trackers than Djinn and Cherubs? And the extras you miss out on really only amount to "general condition" (on a 4) or if it's in danger (on a 6)...the first of which might be handy, granted, but IS kind of a side-point, and the second the Lilim probably doesn't care about anyway... {But consider; not only does the Lilim get to add the Geas level to her Resonance roll - something Djinn and Cherub don't have any option for - but they both have to actually touch the target and get Attuned; They have limits on how many things they can be Attuned to at a time; and Djinn, at least, can only hold onto it for so long. A Lilim in this case can pick up a Need/1 from across the room, hold on to as many such hooks as she wants without worrying about it, and while each Geas may only be usable once, she can use it whenever she wants to track the subject down, wherever he may be, absolutely whenever she wants...and STILL gets to require a favor of him. Cherub of Lawrence, able to attune by sight, might still be worth having around by comparison, but otherwise, they quickly become pretty obsolete, in the practical sense... > This is one of the things that keeps Free Lilim from just vanishing > themselves and going Renegade. If Asmodeus wants to buy one of > the suspected Renegade's Geasa, he can... And then he gives it Which'd still be easily handled by letting the Geas be used as a link for Djinn or the Song of Attraction... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 18:57:18 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: IN> ghosts # I just thought of something. How are ghosts treated in In Nomine? I know Vampires and Zombis are undead under demon control, but what about disembodied spirits like ghosts and aperitions? Reavers, Bloody Bones, and the vicious types are a seperate catagory. The reason I ask is I have a scenario but it requires the use of a lost soul, and I was wondering what the veiw on ghosts was. Shadowcat All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 18:49:24 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Trackers On Sat, 30 Aug 1997 10:18:26 -0600 (MDT), Kingsley Lintz wrote: >> Tough. Karakash canoned it a while back -- Lilim can use Geases >> (and hooks) to track someone down. Once there, the Geas *MUST* ... > {But consider; not only does the Lilim get to add the Geas level >to her Resonance roll - something Djinn and Cherub don't have any option >for - but they both have to actually touch the target and get Attuned; >They have limits on how many things they can be Attuned to at a time; and >Djinn, at least, can only hold onto it for so long. A Lilim in this case >can pick up a Need/1 from across the room, hold on to as many such hooks >as she wants without worrying about it, and while each Geas may only be >usable once, she can use it whenever she wants to track the subject down, >wherever he may be, absolutely whenever she wants...and STILL gets to >require a favor of him. But she does have to satisfy the need/1 before she has the hook and can track him. Still, it might be a good thing to limit the Cherub tracking check digit to the geas level. IOW, for need/1 you can't get better than direction. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #319 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.