From owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Wed Sep 3 00:57:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA14379 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:57:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA18871 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:46:05 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:46:05 -0500 Message-Id: <199709030546.AAA18871@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #322 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@LISTS.IO.COM Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, September 3 1997 Volume 01 : Number 322 In this digest: Re: IN> ghosts IN> Communicating with Superiors IN> Malakim Vows IN> A Marches thought... Re: IN> Communicating with Superiors FW: IN> Communicating with Superiors IN> Re:Diana, Princess of Wales IN> Some demon Ideas I had,,,, IN> Malakim Vows - David?? IN> roles Re: IN> Re:Diana, Princess of Wales Re: IN> Lilim Trackers Re: IN> Malakim Vows Re: IN> Malakim Vows Re: IN> Lilith's Potence Re: IN> Kyriosity Killed the Kat Re: IN> roles Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? Re: IN> Malakim Vows - David?? Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? Re: IN> Lilim Trackers IN> Lilim Geases Re: IN> Malakim Vows - David?? Re: IN> Communicating with Superiors Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? Re: IN> Lilim Geases Re: IN> Lilith's Potence Re: IN> Kyriosity Killed the Kat Re: IN> Lilith's Potence ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 11:37:58 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> ghosts Gregory Littmann wrote: "And the million dollar question is...can Bad ghosts be Saved? That is, can a ghost headed for one destination use its unlife to change direction? If so, it doesn't seem fair on the other dead who got one chance only. If not, it should make it hard for Angels to get rid of ghosts - they would be sending most of them straight to Hell." As I understand the theory of salvation in IN, you go to Hell if you meet your Fate, to Heaven if you achieve your Destiny, and reincarnate or dissipate if you don't do either. Those reincarnating have another chance, as might a ghost. In fact, maybe a ghost could go on to reincarnate. In any case, perhaps the issue isn't whether you're dead or alive, but whether you've met your Fate/Destiny. Perhaps some people have a Fate or Destiny to haunt. Perhaps some are quite close to Fate or Destiny at death and hang about, striving to make that last step. (Not that most people would deliberately hang about to meet their Fate, but, e.g., a vengeful ghost might be fulfilling a Fate such as "to be such a vindictive S.O.B., even death doesn't stop you; it takes a full-blown exorcism and the interposition of heavenly forces," the heavenly forces being the PCs. It's highly traditional to fulfill one's Fate unintentionally.) Anyway, there are two big, bad Malakim of Judgement at the gates of Hell, making sure no one goes in who doesn't deserve to. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 12:00:28 -0400 (EDT) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: IN> Communicating with Superiors This was brought up to my by one of my players. My player felt frustration at, everytime they wanted to send off something small like a status report to his Superior, he either had to drop everything and go to heaven, or summon his Superior there on the ground. Neither was really desireable - going to heaven and tracking down your Superior (or whoever you report to) is a lot of hassle when all you want to say is "not much going on here", and Summoning is a hell of a way to go if you just want to confirm someone's identity or say, "Hey, I'm on the right track" - and when you do, you're in disfavor for being a whiner, and you get a minus to the next time you decide to spend all day yelling and screaming until your Superior pays attention. It's a real pain. Furthermore, the "Dominic drops in on his servants to check up on them once a week" seems really extreme. Here's this busy guy, working on his own agenda, who might even be terribly evil for all anyone knows, and he's taking out time - maybe lots of time - to go visit his servants? Why don't I think so, and it should be the other way around? I know the rulebook gives the "those who help themselves" line, but in the real world, feedback, especially working on a project, is sort of crucial. Now a days, it's done with email, memos, status reports and the like. And I would like to assume that servants on project on Earth would communicate more with their Superiors then anyone else. What I THINK I'm going to do is try to instigate sort of celestial email. For a point of essense, the Celestial in question can write something on a note, and do a little Rite. For example, a servant of Yves can leave the note in a book in the library, a servant of Gabriel can toss the note into the fire, a servant of Andrealphus can stick a note in a copy of Penthouse (although the note may never get read...) The Superior in question can take his own sweet time getting around to reading and acknowledging it, but at least the PC isn't in a vacuum. It seems fair enough, and it keeps the PCs from constantly being pests to those above with a minimum fuss. Does it seem too game unbalancing? Emily K. Dresner, M.S.Eng. Computer Systems Consultant III Medical Center Information Technology Desktop Applications Team Current Quote: "Angels are just Demons not yet Fallen." - B. T. VandGrift ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:26:05 -0500 (CDT) From: Martin Leslie Leuschen Subject: IN> Malakim Vows ****************************************************************** Date: Fri, 29 Aug 97 15:50 EDT From: Walter Milliken Uh uh. No donut. Malakim have a vow "to never suffer an evil to live", *not* to kill demons. Mind you, it *often* amounts to the same thing, except that it means Malakim are prone to kill evil humans just as often (or more so, since there are more of them around...). But a demon who isn't actively "evil" doesn't necessarily fall under a Malakite's vow. It's a subtle distinction (and Malakim aren't necessarily all that subtle...), but it's an important one to remember. ****************************************************************** Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 00:54:26 -0400 From: David Edelstein I have to disagree. Demons may come in various shades of black, but they are the very definition of evil, at least the Malakim definition. ****************************************************************** Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 00:50:41 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz I still say it depends on their personal view and, perhaps even moreso, that of their Superior. (For the obvious examples, Lawrence definitely considers all demons evil; Novalis quite demonstrably doesn't. Dominic may consider some angels evil...) ****************************************************************** This came up in Eternal Dawn (PBM) shortly after I joined on as a GM. He's some of the thoughts I had on it, slightly edited to remove ED specific stuff... [Comments in square brackets] ******* [Begin exerpt] It would depend on the original oath. Here's my argument why the *required* oath of a Malakim would be against Evil, not evil: ["Evil" being from Hell, "evil" being mundane evil] Malakim oathed to destroy banal evil would not be allowed out without a keeper. Reading the newspaper would be enough to send most of them on a rampage, especially if fancy philosophical dodging is dissonant. Luckily, unlike us mundanes#, Malakim have a concrete and easy to define definition of evil: Demons and Soldiers of Hell. #Unless you aren't, (mundane) of course. That said, sure, a Malakim can take an additional oath against some personal definition of evil, even `I know it when I see it,' but what happens when (s)he reads about Aparthied, or the IRA, or about half the stuff in the news about Brazil? (I'd bet about half of Novalis' Malakim are in Brazil just for the trees, not even thinking about the professional `street kid hunters.') Why aren't all of Jordi's Malakim out hunting Veal farmers and Cosmetics testers? Why havn't Dominic's wiped out half of Washington? Where were the Malakim when the Duvaliers were running Haiti? When ethnic cleansing was (is) going on in the former Yugoslavia? When millions of people were (are) killed or starved to death in Africa? How did Hitler last? Or Stalin? Most of the Malakim in the world were probably gunning for them. Sorry about that, I started thinking about `evil things in the world,' and it got out of hand. In any case, I'll think you'll agree that many if not all of the above examples overshadow [whatevver mundane evil your PC group just discovered.] But the Malakim didn't take them out. Why? I can think of 4 possible explanations: 1. Demons fought them off. This implies that there are constant battles between every informed Malakim with oaths against evil (not Evil), and hordes of defending Demons. This strikes me as silly. [It *is* kinda epic tho...] 2. Malakim are all unaware of these things. Ditto. 3. Malakim are not allowed out of Heaven much, at least without a keeper. [If the Malakim has no choice, it's not dissonant, so most of the time a more restrained commander would keep them in line.] [But this] Sucks if you wanna play one. 4. Your average Malakim is not *required* to kill such humans (most would probably want to), and in fact is discouraged from doing so unless (s)he can do it Quietly. This works nicely because it allows modern history to proceed with fewer failed reality checks, and because it implies that the really nasty evil guys have demons around to prevent Malakim assassins doing things quietly. ***** [End Exerpt] To simplify - "There's plenty of mundane evil out there in the real world - Unless your IN campaign includes only carefully restrained or Clueless Malakim, their oaths better not apply to it." Comments? [In regards to the Mal of David Delemma] I agree that trying to force dissonance on you is an attack. In fact, the reason I don't see many of the 'Stupid Lilim Tricks' working is because even trying them is a good way to get your vessel canned, and except for rare hard cases [Hi K.K.!], it isn't usually worth it. Regards, Martin Leuschen martinl@rice.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:39:52 -0500 (CDT) From: Austin George Loomis Subject: IN> A Marches thought... A thought I've had a few times since I read the Book, and had again when I read _The Marches_ at LoneStarCon... Has it occurred to anyone else that maybe giving a Cherub the Word of Fear wasn't the brightest possible idea, given that Fear is the Discord that counts as dissonance for Cherubim? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 12:59:37 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Communicating with Superiors You also might give the Superior a secretarial staff. After all, we know that only the chosen few angels get picked for Earth duty. Of the remaining majority, some may be paper-shufflers who handle the routine field reports and only forward stuff up to the Superior when it's tagged as such or looks important. Such intermediaries might get their input from the sort of c-mail you suggest, or other minor rites of reporting. One thing: these minor rites should be mail, not phone, or you have a "hot-line to Heaven" that makes life too easy. E.g. a servitor of Gabriel strikes a match and yells into the flame, "AAIIIEE! I need any available Malakim at 1313 Mockingbird Lane! And if herself wants to show up, FINE!" Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 10:58:18 -0700 From: Steven Feldon Subject: FW: IN> Communicating with Superiors We've always used Celestial Song of Tongues this way. You have to figure that angels, even PCs, are capable of multitasking a bit better than mere humans, and if a message arrives, it doesn't interrupt what they were doing--it just inserts a bit of information into their head. They can't respond until they have time to do a song, but hey--price you gotta pay. Also, to address the suggestion of a secretarial staff, in our campaign, the mission that the PCs are on has an angel in Heaven co-ordinating for the PCs, or did, until she attained her own word. Now that she's been removed from being their "director", another angel has taken her place. Each of the players communicates sometimes with their superiors, sometimes, but mostly they liase with Susannah, now the Angel of Innocence, or Flan, a Cherub of Christopher. It seems to work. steve > ---------- > From: Emily K. Dresner[SMTP:zenith@engin.umich.edu] > Reply To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 1997 9:00 AM > To: In Nomine Mailing List > Subject: IN> Communicating with Superiors > > > This was brought up to my by one of my players. > > My player felt frustration at, everytime they wanted to send off > something > small like a status report to his Superior, he either had to drop > everything and go to heaven, or summon his Superior there on the > ground. > Neither was really desireable - going to heaven and tracking down your > Superior (or whoever you report to) is a lot of hassle when all you > want > to say is "not much going on here", and Summoning is a hell of a way > to go > if you just want to confirm someone's identity or say, "Hey, I'm on > the > right track" - and when you do, you're in disfavor for being a whiner, > and you get a minus to the next time you decide to spend all day > yelling > and screaming until your Superior pays attention. It's a real pain. > > Furthermore, the "Dominic drops in on his servants to check up on them > once a week" seems really extreme. Here's this busy guy, working on > his > own agenda, who might even be terribly evil for all anyone knows, and > he's > taking out time - maybe lots of time - to go visit his servants? Why > don't I think so, and it should be the other way around? > > I know the rulebook gives the "those who help themselves" line, but in > the > real world, feedback, especially working on a project, is sort of > crucial. > Now a days, it's done with email, memos, status reports and the like. > And > I would like to assume that servants on project on Earth would > communicate > more with their Superiors then anyone else. > > What I THINK I'm going to do is try to instigate sort of celestial > email. > For a point of essense, the Celestial in question can write something > on a > note, and do a little Rite. For example, a servant of Yves can leave > the > note in a book in the library, a servant of Gabriel can toss the note > into > the fire, a servant of Andrealphus can stick a note in a copy of > Penthouse > (although the note may never get read...) The Superior in question > can > take his own sweet time getting around to reading and acknowledging > it, > but at least the PC isn't in a vacuum. > > It seems fair enough, and it keeps the PCs from constantly being pests > to > those above with a minimum fuss. Does it seem too game unbalancing? > > > > Emily K. Dresner, M.S.Eng. > Computer Systems Consultant III > Medical Center Information Technology > Desktop Applications Team > > Current Quote: > > "Angels are just Demons not yet Fallen." > - B. T. VandGrift > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 14:33:11 -0400 (EDT) From: JosephMoon@aol.com Subject: IN> Re:Diana, Princess of Wales In a message dated 97-09-02 14:09:29 EDT, you write: > > The really sad thing is, I can see Nybbas doing this as a calculated > > sacrifice. The paparazzi and the media take a whack, and people > > might try to root out some of the bad elements, but her positive > > effect is removed. > > And the Princess was doing too much good to be left on her own... > Actually, I was thinking about Druiel from Night Music, and how his Word was meant to draw good from tragedy. I personally was not aware of all the Humanitarian work Diana was doing, but much more of the world is much more aware now. Her death is a devastating statement against drunk driving. Hopefully Human Privacy will be held in higher esteem, at least for a while. In the In Nomine universe, I think this is a terrible human tragedy that both sides of the War will try to salvage (dare I say "capitalize on"?) what they can for their cause. (Image of Nybass yanking on of those seven paparazzi schmucks back to Hell and kicking the crap out of him. "You weren't suppose to get her KILLED, you waste of paper pulp!") JosephMoon@aol.com http://members.aol.com/josephmoon/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 14:45:21 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Some demon Ideas I had,,,, >>>designing the ultimate TQM (total quality management) documentation<<< Bwahahahahahaha!!!! - -David (who's had to go through a TQM class or two...) http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/innomine.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 14:45:20 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Malakim Vows - David?? I think the Malakite would take dissonance for attacking the demon -- but afterwards, I think Archangel David would be more than willing to remove the dissonance after the Malakite explains the situation. - -David http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/innomine.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 20:35:00 -0700 From: raymond.hillier@virgin.net Subject: IN> roles hello.i'm curious.there are two references to character point cost for the role resource(pages 43 and 72 respectively).which one do i use please? p.s.if neither,please let me know! p.p.s.thanx guys,cool game! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 16:39:50 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> Re:Diana, Princess of Wales JosephMoon@aol.com wrote: > (Image of Nybass yanking on of those seven paparazzi schmucks back to Hell > and kicking the crap out of him. "You weren't suppose to get her KILLED, you > waste of paper pulp!") Gosh!! I've just pictured a Mercurian of Yves among the french hospital's medical staff, gently squeezing Diana's heart so she could die and fulfill her Destiny... I think I'm finally getting IN in my head... Andre ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Sep 97 15:42 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Trackers >I tend to agree. Making Geases automatic tracers gives Lilim an extra power >that is not in any way supported in the rulebook. I think they need to find >their victims normally. So some of their victims will run and hide, and the >Lilim may have to go to a lot of trouble to find them..... too bad. >Professional assassins have the same problem. Part of the reason for doing this is just to make it *harder* on Lilim (particularly free Lilim), so that they can't just go hide from their Geases. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Sep 97 15:44 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Malakim Vows >> >>>Uh uh. No donut. Malakim have a vow "to never suffer an evil to live", >> *not* to kill demons. Mind you, it *often* amounts to the same thing, >> I have to disagree. Demons may come in various shades of black, but they >> are the very definition of evil, at least the Malakim definition. > I still say it depends on their personal view and, perhaps even >moreso, that of their Superior. (For the obvious examples, Lawrence >definitely considers all demons evil; Novalis quite demonstrably doesn't. >Dominic may consider some angels evil...) > Exactly. All I was trying to say is that isn't *automatic* that Malakim will need to bash any demon they meet. But it may be *likely*. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Sep 97 15:40 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Malakim Vows >>>>Uh uh. No donut. Malakim have a vow "to never suffer an evil to live", >*not* to kill demons. Mind you, it *often* amounts to the same thing, >except that it means Malakim are prone to kill evil humans just as often >(or more so, since there are more of them around...). But a demon who >isn't actively "evil" doesn't necessarily fall under a Malakite's vow.<<< > > >I have to disagree. Demons may come in various shades of black, but they >are the very definition of evil, at least the Malakim definition. Well, not in our game, and certainly nothing published or in the FAQ supports this -- in fact, the fact that Malakim can only detect Balseaphs seems to be a supporting point for me. It's too easy if Malakim can simply bash on every demon they see. OK, so a *lot* of them will do this, but there's nothing in the canon that *forces* demons to be evil, except for Shedim. So a Malakite can't be sure that someone *isn't* a demon just because they're not reading "evil" to their resonance. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 16:07:54 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilith's Potence At 2:13 PM -0400 8/28/97, David Edelstein wrote: >I don't think Superiors can put Discords on other celestials at will, >though, especially not Geases. Not even Lilith. I think this is probably where we're passing each other... I'd like for PCs to be *terrified* of enemy Superiors, not just because they could tear them Force from Force, but because they could (if they had a little time and were really, really ticked) turn them into little smears of Discord. I suppose this could be accomplished by the notion that it takes time -- and the kidnapping of the celestial to be so warped. This may be from a meta-viewpoint, though -- something *eeeevil* to do to PCs rather than toast them, if they're so daft as to stand their ground around an enemy Superior. So I'd *like* it to work out that, if Lilith thought that somebody owed her ("Dammit, you just toasted the informal Seneschal for my Tether! Okay, till I can find a replacement, *YOU'RE* going to guard it for me, angel!"), she *could* slap a Geas on someone. (By her nature, she probably would not do it except when she believed she was owed, in some fashion, that's true 'nuff.) I'd *like* to have it so that a character might wind up with Lust/6 if they annoyed Andrealphus. Or Discolored/6 for ticking off Kobal; Stigmata from the wound inflicted by one of the war- faction Princes/Archangels; Fear if you toy with Beleth; Palid if Saminga notices you're making fun of him... Etc. So I think that Superiors *should* be able to reach in and muck with the vessel or mind of the average celestial (if not the Word-Bound, and maybe not the Distincted). It just takes some set of time/energy/disturbance such that they generally aren't feeling vicious enough to bother with more than tearing someone Force from Force. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 16:10:39 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Kyriosity Killed the Kat At 5:50 PM +1000 8/27/97, Peter Frederick wrote: >>> And of course, animal hosts are much less of an ethical problem. >> >> This concept has actually been explored in fiction. I believe >>it was one Kimball Kinnison in the Lensman series that would always >>do something nice for people that he mind controlled without their >>permission. Among the recipients of this largesse was a washed-up >>asteroid miner, a worm and a hungry spider. >> Of course, he would mind control bad guys and just mess >>up their entire, albeit short, lives! > >Kyrio of Judgement wouldn't have too much of a problem with this, as long as >the Hosts were bad enough to have gotten Discord (which opens another can of >worms), [...] I think I'd rule that the Discord would have to be Ethereal or Celestial for this to work -- things like Murderous, Berserk, etc. Crippled humans are not fair game. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 17:14:26 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> roles At 8:35 PM -0700 9/2/97, raymond.hillier@virgin.net wrote: >hello.i'm curious.there are two references to character point cost for >the role resource(pages 43 and 72 respectively).which one do i use >please? p. 43, I believe. Check out http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine and go to the Errata link. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 14:50:11 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? >I just ran both ideas past Phasekiel (Elohim friend of mine) and he said >both viewpoints were valid and that you should each play the game the way >you feel most comfortable. Personally I like the "Host with Rider's Stats" >and "Rider with Hosts Body Hits" version, fortunately all my players agree >with me. > You know.... Elohime are why Kobal made cream pies.... Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 11:59:09 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> Malakim Vows - David?? At 06:30 PM 9/1/97 +0100, you wrote: >>At 02:24 PM 9/1/97 +1000, Peter Frederick wrote: >> >>>Thinking about this and the "Getting Malakim to fall with Geasa" idea. How >>>do malakim of David sort out the situation where someone walks up and saysd >>>"I'm a Demon, but I'm not going to attack you in any way"???? >> > >My personal thought is that the Malakite would be justified in acting to >provoke first blow on the demon's part. Insult his Prince, insult him, pick >him up by the scruff of the neck and carry him to the town jail, tip a bowl >of washing-water over him, ask your helpful gang to mount an assault, >threaten to be about to report him to the nearest Servitors of the Game.. I >would expect a Malakite of David to be inventive on the subject. > Yep. That's why David's Servators have gangs. Have the gang attack then, if the demon defends himself, he's free to defend his gang. Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 10:59:15 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Kyriotates... At 09:30 AM 8/29/97 -0400, you wrote: >> Just in the hopes of seeing John explode.... > > At best, a muffled explosion... ;) There's a couple >of _really_ hard Kyrio questions that I thought of and, thank >God, no one has asked yet. > Don't bother asking about them... I'm not telling! > That sounds like a challenge to me.... ...Hey! Everyone! Question contest! >> >> What about zero G situations where you throw something to give yourself >> velocity? > > In this situation, I'd let the resonance work. (Don't >_even_ ask about situations where you have to hit a button >with a rock to start the jet engine... I ain't listening to >such foolishness!) > Well.... You see, he's working with this angel who use to work for Eli but is now a Servitor of Jean and calls himself Rube Goldberg... ...and they have to start the Transdimentional Overthruster Mouse Mobile to go out and defeat another one of Vapula's nefarious plots. Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 14:39:12 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? >> >That's the other reason I like my idea - under the current system, a >> >Kyrio inhabiting a turtle is just as nible as one inhabiting a cat. >> >In fact, IIRC, they would have the same speed. [They would - I just >> >checked. Took me long enough to find it. Note to self - rewrite >> >rules for In Nomine, send to SJ. Will beat-down occur?] It >> >takes too much individuality out of vessels to do it the other way. >> >> Check out Wolf vs. Dog on page 191: Dogs run at 10 x Ag but Wolves >> at 12 x Ag. IOW, the GM can set the Agility multiple as appropriate. > >Okay, good point, but avoids the larger problem. Do you want to >rationalize why Harry, Kyriotate of Jordi, is just as able to react >in his 3-toed sloth host as in his hummingbird? > Well, if it's the Kyrio taking over for the sloth's nervous system.... Besides, wouldn't you want to see the looks on peoples faces when that sloth suddenly looks at you and then zips under your car? I'd be priceless. Besides it makes just as little sense for the Kyrio to be able to react faster than it can normally think if it is in a hummingbird. Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 14:15:52 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? >> Right, but at short range, suppose you have an average human precision of 4 >> and a moderate skill of 4. Add the accuracy of 6: 4+4+6=14=12+2, automatic >> success with +2 on the check digit, -1 for the power, for an average damage >> of 4.5, same as +1 power and an automatic hit, reasonable, I think for a >> shotgun--no missing, just varying degrees of damage. A reasonably skilled >> human might be 5+5+6=12+4-1, 6.5 average damage, equal to a .44--he's >> skilled enough to get the target in the full blast. > > The problem is that if an UNSKILLED person with a low precision >hits you with a shotgun, it's not going to wing you. It's going to >blow a hole in you. An unskilled person is *more* likely to wing you than blow a hole in you. It's the spread of the shot that makes the shotgun the weapon of choice for unskilled shooters. You're more likely to get hit by the edge of the blast since the guy isn't very good at aiming. Though he might get lucky. It's much easier to hit someone with a cone of shot 1 to 3 feet in diamiter than a bullet 1/4 to 1/2 inches across. However, unless you place that shot well, you won't do very much damage. Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 20:07:09 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Trackers > Part of the reason for doing this is just to make it *harder* on > Lilim (particularly free Lilim), so that they can't just go hide > from their Geases. As somebody mentioned, Celestial Attraction or the Djinn/Cherub attunement should work, and not give Lilim an automatic power that rivals that of the Cherub/Djinn. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "O Lord, protect me from those to whom You speak directly." - Arrowblue@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:49:47 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: IN> Lilim Geases Yet another Geas question. If a Lilim (or anyone, for that matter) kills a holder of their Geas, does that geas cease to exist? Therefore Lilim A finds out Human X has a geas on them. They track that human down and kill them before they can call in the geas. Does the geas vanish. Logically I'd have to say yes, but I'd like a few other opinions. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Sep 97 22:51 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Malakim Vows - David?? >Thinking about this and the "Getting Malakim to fall with Geasa" idea. How >do malakim of David sort out the situation where someone walks up and saysd >"I'm a Demon, but I'm not going to attack you in any way"???? Said Malakim says, "Meet my Soldier Bruno. Bruno, you know what to do...." And then when the demon starts attacking Bruno in return, the Malakim can step in with no dissonance. Also, I don't think the Malakite has to whap the demon *right now* -- he can lay a plan or two, as long as he's planning to get rid of the demon, I'd say he'd be fulfilling his vow. (All this presumes the Malakite's resonance tells him the demon is "evil", which it probably is, pulling a trick like this....) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Sep 97 23:12 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Communicating with Superiors >My player felt frustration at, everytime they wanted to send off something >small like a status report to his Superior, he either had to drop >everything and go to heaven, or summon his Superior there on the ground. Generally PCs in my game will send routine reports (at whatever interval their Superior deems appropriate) via mundane means to a Tether Seneschal, usually of their own Superior, but sometimes (more likely for angels) an affiliated one who's closer by. Jean's servitors are in closer contact -- they actually have e-mail contact with Heaven. (I have an Internet gateway via the Tether in the MIT Media Lab.) Of course, Jean likes to micro-manage things, so this isn't necessarily a great feature.... In theory, other angels could use Jean's systems to send mail, but they still have to get it from the Halls of Progress to their own Superior, and a lot of the Superiors aren't really what you'd call progressive. I.e., no e-mail in Heaven except for Jean and Marc, and maybe Yves. Other Superiors expect use of the Celestial Song of Tongues for urgent messages, anyway -- that's one of the things it's good for. In this case, there's a bureaucrat of sorts to whom people address urgent messages (and routine reports via Tethers). - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Sep 97 23:21 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? >Elohime are why Kobal made cream pies.... Uh-uh -- it doesn't bother them. *Seraphim* are why Kobal invented cream pies.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Sep 97 23:28 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Geases >If a Lilim (or anyone, for that matter) kills a holder of their Geas, >does that geas cease to exist? I'd say no -- the holder has to be *destroyed*, not just killed. > Therefore Lilim A finds out Human X >has a geas on them. They track that human down and kill them before >they can call in the geas. Does the geas vanish. Logically I'd have >to say yes, but I'd like a few other opinions. Depends. If the human was "good", and went to Heaven, and didn't hang around in the Earthly Heaven as a bohdisattva or saint, then it's as good as gone -- except for God, no one does *anything* from the higher levels of Heaven. So even if the human's soul holds the Geas, there's no way to use it. For a human who dissipates after death, it's really gone. For a human who's reincarnated... hmmm. Probably more fun if they get to keep it. Of course, they generally won't *know* they've got it.... And for a Hell-bound soul, I'd say they get to keep it. Someone will probably force them to "trade" it for better treatment, but it will still be active. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:40:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Lilith's Potence On Tue, 2 Sep 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > So I'd *like* it to work out that, if Lilith thought that somebody > owed her ("Dammit, you just toasted the informal Seneschal for my > Tether! Okay, till I can find a replacement, *YOU'RE* going to > guard it for me, angel!"), she *could* slap a Geas on someone. > (By her nature, she probably would not do it except when she > believed she was owed, in some fashion, that's true 'nuff.) Oh, that one's easy. Have Lilith appear just after the Seneschal gets toasted. Mad as Hell, she rears back to slap the angel into its component forces -- and stops herself an inch from the angel's face. The angel, expecting to be zapped, breathes a silent "thank you", only to have Lilith reply with, "You're welcome. Now you owe me one. Payback will consist of guarding this tether until I find another Seneschal." Most PCs, with the exception of the "final dissolution before dishonor" types, will acknowledge the debt. ;) - -- Casca (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 23:16:38 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Kyriosity Killed the Kat > >Kyrio of Judgement wouldn't have too much of a problem with this, as long as > >the Hosts were bad enough to have gotten Discord (which opens another can of > >worms), [...] > I think I'd rule that the Discord would have to be Ethereal or > Celestial for this to work -- things like Murderous, Berserk, etc. > Crippled humans are not fair game. I'd actually take it a step further and note that Discord is a step deeper than anything purely physical, including the Corporeal Discords. (So theoretically, a human could HAVE the Crippled Discord, but it definitely means that he's not a whole `person'..not just that his leg is broken or he happened to have been born without an arm. That's being crippled; not possessing the Discord...in kind of the same sense that humans aren't all slapped with the Gluttony Discord, even though we all feel this powerful compulsion to eat, ESPECIALLY if we `haven't eaten in the last day'...) Among other things, it's worth noting that where an Angel could, say, perform a `miraculous healing' with the Song of Corporeal Healing and fix someone who has a broken leg, the song would have no effect on someone who had a broken leg backed by Crippled/3... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 23:22:36 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Lilith's Potence Elizabeth noted; > other... I'd like for PCs to be *terrified* of enemy Superiors, > not just because they could tear them Force from Force, but > because they could (if they had a little time and were really, > really ticked) turn them into little smears of Discord. ...and then goes on with some fun examples. > Word-Bound, and maybe not the Distincted). It just takes some > set of time/energy/disturbance such that they generally aren't > feeling vicious enough to bother with more than tearing someone > Force from Force. In GENERAL, I don't like the idea of Discord being inflicted. Among other things, I'm not seeing many circumstances in which your OWN Superior wouldn't just take it right off, since we DO know they can do that...so it doesn't seem like enough threat to be worth it. On the other hand, there's the point that ANYONE can inflict Ethereal Discord by beating someone in Ethereal combat, so...I suppose in the end I'd go with the idea taken up by your examples; Superiors can inflict Discords that fit themselves, but not just inflict any Discord on anyone whenever they feel like it. (eg. Baal really -CAN'T- make someone Merciful, as handy as it might be to slap it on some Malakim of the Sword. While Kobal can probably only do things just like that...) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #322 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.