From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Sep 7 22:07:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA03380 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:07:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id VAA09308 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 21:51:06 -0500 Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 21:51:06 -0500 Message-Id: <199709080251.VAA09308@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #328 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, September 7 1997 Volume 01 : Number 328 In this digest: IN> Malikim Vows- Will a Malakim help a demon repent? Re: IN> Resisting Angelic Resonance IN> Kyriotates of Lightning IN>Beating a dead Malakim of David IN> Eli is more than he appears IN> Garou and Jean Re: IN> Eli is more than he appears Re: IN> Kyrios and Shedim becoming Remnants Re: IN> Kyriotates of Lightning IN> Converting Lillim Re: IN> Malikim Vows- Will a Malakim help a demon repent? Re: IN> Converting Lillim Re: IN> Converting Lillim Re: IN> Malikim Vows- Will a Malakim help a demon repent? Re: IN>Beating a dead Malakim of David ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 16:11:01 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Malikim Vows- Will a Malakim help a demon repent? >>>[Horrible digression- I'm getting this vision of a impudite player wanting to repent. The GM rules that simple religious activity is insufficient to generate the dissonance needed to redeem. So the demon goes out and starts killing mortals, cause it's dissonant to him, so he can be more angelic...]<<< Dissonance doesn't work for demons the way it does for angels-- becoming more dissonant doesn't bring them closer to Redemption, it just makes them miserable failures as demons. A demon can become Redeemed without having *any* dissonance or Discord. So your example is a demon who's not doing anything to help his Redemption; he's just making himself hunted by both Heaven and Hell. As for Malakim helping demons to Redeem themselves; I imagine a *few* Malakim, if they encounter a demon who seems to be sincerely trying to Redeem himself (knowingly running to a *Malakite* and asking for help has to be an indication of sincerity! Though it can also be an indication of a set-up), might decide to help the demon....fully prepared to waste him at the first sign of duplicity or backsliding. (Most would probably just err on the side of caution and kill him, figuring that if the demon really wanted to be Redeemed, God would see to it.) However, a forced conversion simply won't work; you can't tell a demon "Join us or die". Sure, the demon might *say* anything to avoid destruction, but Redemption requires a sincere desire to abandon the selfish, diabolical worldview. You can't impose that desire under duress. So any Malakite who tried bringing a demon to his Archangel to be involuntarily Redeemed would be told "Kill it and stop wasting my time!" - -David http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/innomine.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 16:33:18 -0400 (EDT) From: JosephMoon@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Resisting Angelic Resonance >> Rather than use 'angelic' and 'demonic' resonances as terms, >>I like 'will based' and 'perception based'. Will-based resonances >>can be resisted (most of the time) and this includes the Kyriotates. >>Perception-based ones usually can't be (like the Lilim's). >It's two rolls, but then so is the Impudite resonance. It's on >two different stats, too, though -- but the enforcing of an emotion >probably wouldn't *require* sensing the existing ones? >And Lilim, too. One Perception-based roll (sensing need) and one Will-based >(the Geas). Can't believe you didn't use that one for an example, Beth! ; ) > Oops! My Bad! I guess a Will-roll to resist doesn't count as a Will-based Resonance. The Lilim never has to make a Will-roll herself for her resonance, so scratch them as an example. - -Joe JosephMoon@aol.com http://members.aol.com/josephmoon/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 16:10:59 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Kyriotates of Lightning >>>(Though, on a more serious note regarding Kyriotates of Jean...having read a few reports on them from people's games, I'm thinking they should be limited to a certain minimum tech level...`curtains' just shouldn't have the complexity to support a Servitor of Lightning. Plastic blinds, perhaps, because they're 1) plastic and 2) possess a minimal `mechanical' quality, but..no curtains, clothing, blocks of wood, etc. Living out in a wood or stone cabin with no modern touches should be as good against Kyrio's of Lightning as clearing out all the flowers is for Servitors of Novalis...)<<< Remember, Lightning has been around a lot longer than modern technology has. Their resonance is for possessing things that are made from man's ingenuity-- which includes wood and stone cabins. And to avoid Servitors of Novalis, you'd have to eliminate all PLANTS, not just all flowers. Remember, the Words of Archangels are very broad. - -David http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/innomine.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Sep 97 14:45:39 PDT From: "Chris Jackson" Subject: IN>Beating a dead Malakim of David Hmmmmm. On page 101 of the main rulebook, it lists the Malakite vow in question as "a Malakite will never suffer an evil to live *when it's his choice*" Emphasis mine, of course. So the question really is, when is it the Malakite's choice? The example given in the book is that of a Malakite lying to a captured demon and then killing it anyway. I'm not sure that Malakim are really even permitted to wander the streets, killing everything evil that they run across. It's like the old, old AD&D cliche of the paladin detecting evil in everyone he meets, and then whacking them. Violence is certainly their purview, but random violence, not so much. Of course, this makes the life of the hypothetical Malakite of David much easier - if they discover a Demon who isn't actively being hostile, *it's not their choice* whether or not they should suffer that Demon to live. They already have orders to the contrary. (Which highlights what I think is the big difference between In Nomine and the World of Darkness. The Celestials have jobs, and people to report to, instead of relying on their own sense of coolness.) Christopher B. Jackson (Who isn't even on the list right now, but just had to jump in.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 17:21:25 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Eli is more than he appears From: Casca >Conclusion: Eli is Jesus No, Eli is Yahweh's Vessel which he uses to communicate with the Arch Angels much like the Angels use vessels to talk to humans. Adam Canning Dahak@Compuserve.Com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 17:21:31 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Garou and Jean From: Elizabeth McCoy >Heh. I dunno -- a bunch of Garou run into Jordi... I could see that... "Now, repeat after me, Jean is the Wyrm..." (Or was that Weaver?) < Definitely Weaver. [ie organisation of the universe, rather than Wyrm corruption of the universe.] So Repeat after me Jean is the Weaver, Lucifer is the Wyrm. Saminga is Cain and Set, Vapula and Nyblas are the Technocracy, Janus is Hermes and no ones seen an elf since they went to hide on the moon from Uriel. The only probl;em is that the most likely candidates in the In Nomine universe for Garou are Jordi's Malakim who spend time changing into wolves... Adam Canning Dahak@Compuserve.Com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 00:40:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Eli is more than he appears On Sat, 6 Sep 1997, Adam Canning wrote: > No, Eli is Yahweh's Vessel which he uses to communicate with the Arch > Angels much like the Angels use vessels to talk to humans. Could be. They both end up being the same thing, I suppose. No matter how many forms God splits into, He's still God. I actually like this interpretation better, except for one thing: since when has any archangel ever listened to Eli? With the exception of Novalis and Blandine, all the others think he's nuts and irresponsible. Eli doesn't get involved with heavenly politics, and to me that means he doesn't spend a whole lot of time talking to its inhabitats. I see him as more concerned with what happens down on Earth. In retrospect, Eli seems more like the Holy Spirit than Jesus -- an active, though often undetectable, force for good in the world. - -- Casca (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 00:38:59 -0400 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> Kyrios and Shedim becoming Remnants >One of my players asked a couple of interesting questions: > >When a KySh loses all of his Celestial Forces in Celestial combat, he >will >become a Remnant. Which vessel does he return to? (Assuming he has no >regular >vessels as some do). > >My take is that their link to the Corporeal plane is too delicate for >them to >become Remnants in the regular sense. Instead, they become Ghosts linked >to a >location near their final battle. Or something like that. > To me the same logic leads to apply the answer from the book. If a Kyriotate or a Shedim lose their Celestial Forces, it's the end of story period. The Kyrio and by extension their Fallen counterparts have been described as incorporeal clouds of primal urges, which suggests that they're simply not as cohesive as other celestial souls. Neither type have vessels as a rule. Exception: Laurence and David's attunements make it possible for a Kyriotate to posess or generate vessels. For the former, I rule that the Kyrio becomes the classic Remnant as David's Kyrios have "conventional" vessels. As for David's they keep their stone vessels but the almost total disbanding of their Forces means that the vessels become totally immobile save for special GM-determined circumstances. This state can really bite as these stone-bound victims are just as "invisible" celestially as other Remmnants. Most retreat into ennui or become insane. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 10:33:50 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates of Lightning > >>>(Though, on a more serious note regarding Kyriotates of Jean...having > read a few reports on them from people's games, I'm thinking they should be > limited to a certain minimum tech level...`curtains' just shouldn't have > the complexity to support a Servitor of Lightning. Plastic blinds,<<< > Remember, Lightning has been around a lot longer than modern technology > has. Their resonance is for possessing things that are made from man's > ingenuity-- which includes wood and stone cabins. Not as I see Jean, actually...from his description, he has VERY little interest (or even belief) in man's ingenuity.. HE'S had past-modern technology for quite some time... But more importantly to the point at hand, his emphasis DOES seem to be a bit towards the `lightning' aspect. Archangel Words are definitely symbolic, but he's noted as representing `energies'. This I can see extending even to purely mechanical tools...but still not to completely inert objects, even those crafted by man. {On the strictly symbolic note, I'd also point out that stone cabins were designed quite specifically as protection against lightning, which may have some influence there as well...but it's a sidepoint, and only really matters if a GM wants to get into that kind of thing.} > And to avoid Servitors of Novalis, you'd have to eliminate all PLANTS, not > just all flowers. Remember, the Words of Archangels are very broad. I was thinking specifically on the note under that `Know Thy Enemy' bit, with regards to the Nothing But Flowers Attunement...to utterly eradicate all of Novalis's influence on an area, you'd need to get rid of all plants, all fertility, and all compassion... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 12:48:05 -0400 (EDT) From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: IN> Converting Lillim First, I'm new to this list. I've read some of the web digests, but not all, so bear with me. Second, I'm a Game Master who has a bunch of overly responsible characters. Two Mercurians of Yves tag teamed with a Malakite of Michael and a Kyriotate of Jean to Good Cop/Bad Cop a Lilim of Andrephalus into converting *in their first adventure*! Now I've got a Lilim with a Geas/6 to "try to convert to the light." To make matters worse, the only Archangel to show up was Eli. Then, a new player showed up and wants to play the Lilim, who has been hiding out at various tethers around Seattle. So, does anyone have any ideas about the servitor attunements this "Bright" Lilim of Eli will end up with? Or for that matter, would she keep her old attunement? Thanks, Mark (Harried but loving it...) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 14:07:41 -0400 (EDT) From: gibsonc@nku.edu Subject: Re: IN> Malikim Vows- Will a Malakim help a demon repent? please, somebody get me off this damn list!!!!! gibsonc@nku.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 19:05:10 +0100 (BST) From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: Re: IN> Converting Lillim >Second, I'm a Game Master who has a bunch of overly responsible characters. > Two Mercurians of Yves tag teamed with a Malakite of Michael and a Kyriotate >of Jean to Good Cop/Bad Cop a Lilim of Andrephalus into converting *in their >first adventure*! Now I've got a Lilim with a Geas/6 to "try to convert to >the light." To make matters worse, the only Archangel to show up was Eli. > Then, a new player showed up and wants to play the Lilim, who has been >hiding out at various tethers around Seattle. So, does anyone have any ideas >about the servitor attunements this "Bright" Lilim of Eli will end up with? > Or for that matter, would she keep her old attunement? Hm. I'm not entirely sure which attunements, but I'd suspect that she gets one from Eli. Using the old Andre one (which she might still have) would probably be a very Dissonant thing to do, with her new alignment. Also, that poor Lilim is in a _heap_ of trouble. She'll have Asmodeus' people after her (Renegade! Renegade!), Dominic's people investigating her (she's Eli's, she _says_ she's converted but do we trust her?), Andrealphus' Servitors looking for vengeance and/or reconversion in a _major_ way (she's just gone over to Eli, who is his particular enemy)... I think she's got plenty of problems. Good luck with the hiding. :) Maya - --- Maya, Elohim of Eli in service to Blandine maya@tcp.co.uk - -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 14:24:54 -0400 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> Converting Lillim >First, I'm new to this list. I've read some of the web digests, but not all, >so bear with me. > >Second, I'm a Game Master who has a bunch of overly responsible characters. > Two Mercurians of Yves tag teamed with a Malakite of Michael and a Kyriotate >of Jean to Good Cop/Bad Cop a Lilim of Andrephalus into converting *in their >first adventure*! Now I've got a Lilim with a Geas/6 to "try to convert to >the light." To make matters worse, the only Archangel to show up was Eli. > Then, a new player showed up and wants to play the Lilim, who has been >hiding out at various tethers around Seattle. So, does anyone have any ideas >about the servitor attunements this "Bright" Lilim of Eli will end up with? > Or for that matter, would she keep her old attunement? > > Thanks, > Mark (Harried but loving it...) **Following the basic guidelines given in the Lilim description and Redemption in General **** She would keep her basic "Lilim" attunement but forfeit any and all attunements, distinctions etc from Andre. She would retain her knowledge of Andre's rites, but using them for Essence would bring dissonance. Assuming Eli agrees to take her into his service,she would start out with nothing save her basic Lilim attunement and the Songs she already knew. There are no Archangel attunements for Lillim, (unless Eli creates one though she wouldn't start out with it, it would have to be earned) and Eli doesn't grant distinctions, so all she could aim for would be to eventually earn his Servitor attunements. She still would have the same chances of summoning Lilith as a Bright Lilim, but this would be an act not taken lightly. Although interestingly enough if Lilith is on speaking terms with ANY Archangel, Eli strikes me as the most likely with Jean, Novalis and Yvves following distantly in that order. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 14:35:56 -0400 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> Malikim Vows- Will a Malakim help a demon repent? >In a message dated 97-09-05 08:51:13 EDT, milliken wrote: > >Actually this is starting to move beyond the subject of Malakim, and more >toward what is "evil". > >If all demons are inherently and unavoidably evil, then the Malikim must kill >him, period. The topic has shifted beyond Malakim, to asking whether demons >inherently evil, or merely highly likely to be evil. > >Can a demon be good? In my own game the answer would be a resounding no. At >least, he wouldn't stay a demon long. But then, as I'm so fond of saying, my >game isn't canon, it's heresy... :-) > The language used in the book makes the question easy. The overriding themes in the War are not good vs. evil per se, but selflessness vs. selfishness. Granted there's not much of a difference, but I'm sure it was presented that way for a reason, as one of many touches of the subtle ambiguities that Celestials on both sides are forced to deal with. In particularly folks like Novalis, Eli, Valefor, and the hinted cooperation between Asmodeus and Dominic definitely stir up the pot. As far as the Malikim are concerned, it really depends upon the situation. A demon who has been more selfish than evil, particularly one Discordant enough to consider switching is probably keeping itself lying really low as far as it's celestial aspect. Now if said demon has a history of outright evil, it's basically toast as far as the Malakim are concerned unless it runs out of town, or successfully appeals to an Archangel before the malakim grabs it by the horns. Malakim on Earth are going to find themselves getting the occasional note of dissonance given the clashing priorities of the various Archangels not to mention some of the choice that they'll have to face, i.e. killing the demon outright or swearing an oath to give it a break in order to serve a "greater good." The key to whether they'll keep this enough under control to survive depends on many way the "maturation" of the character. The Old Guy is a perfect example of a celestial that's shut itself out of the changing world, purposefully taking up it's Seneshalip perhaps to avoid the increasing complexity of playing the Angelic Paladin on Earth. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:41:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Davidson Subject: Re: IN>Beating a dead Malakim of David On Sat, 6 Sep 1997, Chris Jackson wrote: > Hmmmmm. On page 101 of the main rulebook, it lists the Malakite vow in >question as "a Malakite will never suffer an evil to live *when it's his >choice*" Emphasis mine, of course. So the question really is, when is >it the Malakite's choice? The example given in the book is that of a >Malakite lying to a captured demon and then killing it anyway. > I think that this might be a case in English of ambiguous possessive pronouns. In the phrase "his choice", which "his" is being referred to? You are right that it doesn't make sense if the "choice" being referred to is the Malakim's. But how about the "target"? (for lack of a better term). Maybe the sentence should be rewritten thus: "A Malakim will never suffer an evil to live if it's said being's choice." This covers a lot of implied ground here. What if a human is being possessed by a demon using the Song of Possession and does some very horrible things while possessed? Clearly, by this rewriting, the Host is not to blame (in the Malakim's view) for his actions. Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us MUSIC: Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones, Rush, Jimi Hendrix GAMES: Champions (old and new), In Nomine, Nephilim TV: The X-Files, the Simpsons, Superman(animated), The Tick, the Animaniacs OTHER: Religion, Philosophy, mysticism, the runes, the Tarot, writing. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #328 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.