From owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Mon Sep 8 19:31:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA08880 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 19:31:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id TAA07120 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 19:06:26 -0500 Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 19:06:26 -0500 Message-Id: <199709090006.TAA07120@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #330 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@LISTS.IO.COM Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, September 8 1997 Volume 01 : Number 330 In this digest: Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? IN> Birdy -- A character/plot seed... Re: IN> Lilim Trackers Re: IN> Lilith's Potence Re: IN> Resisting Angelic Resonance Re: IN> What's up with "The Marches"? Re: IN> Converting Lillim Re: IN> Celestial Plane Questions Re: IN> ghosts Re: IN> What's up with "The Marches"? Re: IN> Lilith's Potence IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #329 IN> Lilim Trackers IN> Eli is more than he appears IN> Converting Lillim Re: IN> Eli is more than he appears Re: IN> Lilith's Potence Re: IN> Night Music: "...a skill known at Level 6 or better..." IN> Talking to Lilim IN> Beth, Archangel of Archives (LONG) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 17:17:33 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? On Mon, 8 Sep 1997 10:40:58 -0400, johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) wrote: >> First is an intervention: a low or moderate skill person *can* *rarely* get >> really good damage. > > Really good damage=7+, hence impossible for someone with a skill >total less than 13 at a power of -1. Well, I don't think normal damage limits hold for an intervention. An intervention is more like, "He dies." IMHO, of course. > The d6 range is a problem inherent in In Nomine. Someone getting >'winged' with a shotgun is when the roll barely misses (zero damage). Yeah, the d6 being a problem is my point. I have a problem with a jump in an unskilled person from 0 damage to 7 damage. I see intermediate wings as possibel. > Did I say -1 accuracy was reasonable? No. If you look at >my suggestion for a reasonable shotgun, it had a positive accuracy >that dropped off more slowly with range (due to spread). I, personally, >think the stats in the book could use some tweaking and that a shotgun >_does_ require additional mechanics to model properly. Let's not >do the straw man, okay? Sorry, I've obviously irritated you, and I didn't mean to. I wasn't intending to hold you to the current stats, just pointing out thier problems. > An average person (stats of 3) with quite a bit of training >in shotgun (skill 3) can't do better than 5 points (assuming the >suggestion of +6 accuracy, -1 power). Not reasonable. Point taken. I just hate to add still another mechanic into the system. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 13:56:45 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Birdy -- A character/plot seed... "Birdy" Force-stripped Seraph of Lightning Corporeal Forces 0 Strength 0 Agility 0 Ethereal Forces 0 Intelligence 0 Precision 0 Celestial Forces: 1 Will: 2 Perception: 3 [additional attribute] Skills & Songs Artistry/1, Computer Operation/5, Detect Lies/1, Electronics/1, Singing/3, Celestial Song of Healing/4 Attunements & Discords Seraph of Lightning attunement Discords: Fear/3 (knives), Bound/2 (its cage) Once Javan, Balseraph of Technology, "Birdy" is an example of what happens when Asmoedus gets his hands on a traitor. After being subjected to some of Vapula's devices, the Prince of Technology gave the wretched, but still Seraphic, thing back to the Game. Asmodeus, amused by the idea of an incorruptable recording device, tucked the arm-length Seraph into a celestial birdcage and hung it in his office. Birdy clings desperately to its angelic state, dimly aware that Falling would just get it recycled into something else. It still remembers its name, as you can tell by asking it -- "My-name-is-Javan-but-Master-says- call-me-Birdy" -- and can understand the demonic language, but refuses to speak it personally. Being in Hell, it cannot regenerate Essence. It cannot lie -- not only does it hurt (acquire dissonance) if it tries, but "Master" has ordered it not to, on pain of pain. When Asmodeus wishes Birdy to display evidence of some kind, he gives it a bit of Essence and Birdy uses its Seraph of Lightning attunement to produce a holographic image of what it remembers. Lacking in Ethereal Forces, its eidetic memory makes it very much an idiot savant. When not instructed to be silent and observe, Birdy spends its time with its tail wrapped around the cage's perch, singing mournfully to itself in the angelic tongue. What it sings is quite random -- stanzas of poetry, bits of conversation (sometimes of plans that were once-sensitive), snippets of the things it's seen from its cage, wordless snatches from its theme of the Symphony, and the one Song that it remembers: Celestial Healing. (Of course, without Essence, it can't use the Song...) Asmodeus is considering giving Birdy back a smidgen of Intelligence, so that it will be able to remember when it's told, "Shut up!" The cage is, of course, a celestial prison capable of holding a being small enough to be stuffed into it -- usually relievers, imps or gremlins. In the Corporeal Realm, it manifests as an old-style "domed" birdcage, of the sort used for cartoon canaries. Birdy, not having any Corporeal Forces, is Bound into the cage itself, and has a tendency to use daily Essence (when in the Corporeal Realm) to create random memory-holograms inside the cage. What Birdy suffered at the hands of its former Prince has "Tripped" the poor creature -- its angelic Heart, though still intact, will no longer reveal its location. Dominic's servitors would be very interested in the location of this Outcast (who has been missing for several years now), at least until they heard what had happened to it; even Servitors of Judgment might understand such extenuating circumstances. Being angelic (if Outcast), Birdy could probably be taken to Heaven via Tether, or carried in its cage by an angel. If it ever recovered enough Forces to become sentient again, it would probably be very close to madness -- the constant lies in Hell were an ever-present torment. Nevertheless, Jean would probably want to have his Servitor returned -- at the very least, it's bad PR to let Hell keep an angel prisoner there, and Javan would remember everything he'd heard while in Asmodeus' office... Reasons PCs might encounter Birdy: * They've been in Asmodeus' office, or otherwise viewed the living recording device in action. If anyone's openly curious, Asmodeus will relate the story behind Birdy in monotone detail, as an Example of what happens to traitors to Hell. GMs should make up something appropriately nasty, probably taking Birdy's Fear (knives) into consideration. * The PCs are supposed to find the recording-Seraph and terminate it -- perhaps because of something it observed and might reveal someday. It's dumb enough, it might even sing about it. (Would the PCs like to get the bit of blackmail before they kill the creature?) * They've been sent to steal Birdy, probably by one of the other Princes. The little Seraphling knows quite a lot of information, and hasn't the wit to refuse to reveal anything. Since Asmodeus would probably notice his pet missing, the PCs might have to get a specific piece of information from Birdy -- a task which might be a little difficult, considering how stupid it is. * The PCs are required to rescue Birdy -- either it's been brought to the corporeal realm for some reason, or they've gotten into a bit of a pickle... (See Rescue: 666 for an example of pickles -- Novalis Geases demonic PCs to rescue a kidnapped Seraph of Flowers from Malphas. Maybe the PCs would like to pick up Birdy as well, since they're already going to have a Prince mad at them?) * They're given Birdy as a recording device while on a mission. Hauling around an apparently empty birdcage that can spontaneously produce holograms-with-sound will be an interesting experience. (Birdy starts getting Essence if it's taken out of Hell, but doesn't quite remember what to do with it.) * The PCs have been told by someone (Asmodeus, a Word-bound or Servitor claiming to work for the Game, etc.) that they're supposed to deliver Birdy as a "sweetener" for some deal Asmodeus is working up with Dominic. Here's the cage (and Seraph), here's where they're supposed to go. Now, what haven't they been told? * Somehow, Birdy has escaped! (Or been killed, kidnapped, or rescued...) The PCs, for whatever reason, would like to re-capture Birdy (for one of the above reasons, probably, or just to get points on Asmodeus). Now, how hard could it be to find one little Seraph hiding in Hell...? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:20:11 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Trackers At 10:51 AM -0400 9/8/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >> >> Well, Karakash has been wrong before... >> > >> > Lies, foul lies! It wasn't me! I wasn't even there! You >> >can't prove nothin'! >> >> I hope you're not going to deny it's in the FAQ. And do you *really* >> want me to go through the archives to find the original email with >> your name on it? I will, you know.... > > You wouldn't do that to me, would you? *looks up with >soulful brown eyes* Not _me_!? O;) What's it worth to you? };] > [BTW, I was denying that anything I could say is ever wrong. Ahhhhhhh. Okay. I'll just have to look for different things... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:24:24 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilith's Potence At 12:19 AM -0400 9/5/97, Casca wrote: >On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > >> It's more than semantic. One involves action and the other >> involves lack of action. The fact that the Lilim caused the Need >> to be imminent is irrelevant. > >I agree with Walt Mazur on this one. > >> You could as easily ask why a celestial generates disturbance >> for killing a human, but not when they allow a mortal to die that >> they could have easily saved. > >I have asked, and I disagree with the answer. So now that you know where >this discussion is headed... > >> Perhaps a new example will make it clearer. >> Bob needs $50. A Lilim can sense this and fulfill it. >> Bob doesn't need $50, but somebody (perhaps the Lilim) >> just robbed him for $50. That puts >> you back in the first case with a detectable Need. >> Bob doesn't need $50. You can't go up and say, "I'm >> not going to steal $50 from you. You owe me >> a favor now." > >I disagree with your reasoning here, but I don't feel I can argue my >point coherently. So I'll just sit back and watch, and if someone *nudge >AA Beth* states my point I'll be sure to let you know. :) The Need has to be something that the GM thinks the subject would just *have*. You can't go up to Bob and say "I'm not going to steal $50 from you. You owe me a favor now." You *might* be able to go to Bob and toss him against a wall and rifle through his pockets, and hold up his $50 and then read his Need to have that $50 to pay off some debt before the kneecappers come by, and then you smile, lower Bob, and hand him his $50 -- and say, "Oh, and now you owe me, for my mercy now." So if you have someone in your power, *sure* that he's about to be toasted, you can look for the Need for survival. Basically, you'd have had to "steal" his ability to control whether he survives or not, and then give it back to him. Does that work out? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:28:30 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Resisting Angelic Resonance At 9:05 AM -0400 9/8/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > > Unless I'm overruled, this is Canon. Habbalah _do_ have >two ways of using their Resonance. "Like an Elohite, he can tell what >emotion a person is feeling. He can _also_ tell what emotion would >cause the person the most harm..." > This puts the Habblah's Resonance strictly better than >the Elohim's... not exactly a comfortable situation rules-balancewise. >Note, though, that their Resonance just says sense emotion, not >all the guessing-about-the-future stuff that the Elohim. > So I'd rule that they can sense emotion with a simple >Perception roll and do the damage that they do so well with a >successful Will roll. > This may seem unbalanced (Hey, my Habbalite needs TWO >stats to do her resonance!), but they are getting two decent >powers and they aren't the only Band/Choir that is in that situation. (Hey, they're better than Elohim -- this *PROVES* they're angels, and their True Calling has been Divinely *revealed* to them, along with the powers to handle it! I love Habbalah... Or, rather, love hating them.) And it does mean that they have to have two high Celestial stats to use *both* effectively. Many originally-demonic ones will probably concentrate on the emotional-projection version, though some Fallen will probably just points into Knowledge: Psychology and manipulate people that way... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:22:35 -0400 From: Hunter Johnson Subject: Re: IN> What's up with "The Marches"? On Mon, 8 Sep 1997 00:04:38 -0400 (EDT), "Michael C. Nutt" said: > Following the occasional mentions of the book here on the list, I've > been pestering the bejeezus out my Friendly Local Game Store about > it, and Friday they told me that they'd heard it wouldn't be out > until sometime in October. I rushed to the SJG website, but the > last "Word" was dated July 23, and announced "Night Music" coming > out. What's the status of the project, guys? Not fair to the > hopelessly addicted public to tease us with mentions of it, and even > letting some folks at Worldcon see it, and then not letting the rest > of us get our grubby little paws on it... I got my comp copy on Friday, so distributors should have it by now, and your local game store should have it this week or next. In theory, it should be in the catalog web page as well, but it ain't. Hunter - -- J. Hunter Johnson /\ SJG Errata Coordinator (sjg-errata@io.com) http://www.io.com/~jhunterj/ /()\ Knightmare Chess Development Coordinator jhunterj@io.com /____\ South Park: Care Bears on Acid -- G.C. Settlers RoboRally Brain Groo LunchMoney DinoHunt Knightmare GURPS AoR INWO ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:42:15 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Converting Lillim At 12:48 PM -0400 9/7/97, MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: >First, I'm new to this list. I've read some of the web digests, but not all, >so bear with me. > >Second, I'm a Game Master who has a bunch of overly responsible characters. > Two Mercurians of Yves tag teamed with a Malakite of Michael and a Kyriotate >of Jean to Good Cop/Bad Cop a Lilim of Andrephalus into converting *in their >first adventure*! Now I've got a Lilim with a Geas/6 to "try to convert to >the light." To make matters worse, the only Archangel to show up was Eli. > Then, a new player showed up and wants to play the Lilim, who has been >hiding out at various tethers around Seattle. So, does anyone have any ideas >about the servitor attunements this "Bright" Lilim of Eli will end up with? > Or for that matter, would she keep her old attunement? If she's really Bright, then she loses all demonic attunements... (Sadists! Sadists! Forcing a poor Daughter to swear that way... Lilith will *not* be pleased!) I doubt even Eli would give her a Bright Lilim attunement until she'd really been hauled upstairs and exposed to the True Symphony (and either found enough altruism in herself to be Redeemed, or been destroyed because she couldn't let go of the selfish bits of her nature enough). For suggestions about "Bright Lilim Attunements," check out http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles -- then go to the Rules expansions link. If you don't have WWW access, email me, and I'll send it to you in Email. Don't forget Andre and Asmodeus will be annoyed with her... Though if she's really Bright, she can go celestial in a Heaven-Tether without being toasted. Of course, she'll probably attract a certain amount of attention from Dominic's lot. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:52:32 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Plane Questions At 12:11 AM +0000 9/8/97, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: >> >> Oh, okay. Spank me for not reading it closely enough. ;) >> > What? Beth's giving out spankings for misreadings? Oooh... >> >> I am? Hm.... Funny, I didn't put anything about wearing black >> leather outfits in my "Archangel of Archives" first draft. Do >> you think I should? > >You're the one with the Dominatrix button... Hey, it was at a con, I was in a weird mood. Besides, that's my Demon Princess button, not my Archangel button. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:54:40 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> ghosts At 1:14 AM -0400 9/6/97, Casca wrote: >On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> Heh. I dunno -- a bunch of Garou run into Jordi... I could see that... >> "Now, repeat after me, Jean is the Wyrm..." (Or was that Weaver?) > >Weaver. Just shows how much Werewolf *I've* played... ("You took *how* many flaws?" "Bald, albino, and fangless. Don't make jokes about Scooby snacks." ) 'Course, the Glasswalkers would like Jean... >And speaking of Garou, I've decided that in my games they're the >descendants of Jordi's Grigori. Hmmmm! Cool notion. (You've seen the Gargoyles in IN thing, right?) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:34:59 -0400 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> What's up with "The Marches"? On Sep 8, 12:04am, Michael C. Nutt wrote: > Subject: IN> What's up with "The Marches"? > Following the occasional mentions of the book here on the list, I've been > pestering the bejeezus out my Friendly Local Game Store about it, and Friday > they told me that they'd heard it wouldn't be out until sometime in October. > I rushed to the SJG website, but the last "Word" was dated July 23, and > announced "Night Music" coming out. What's the status of the project, guys? > Not fair to the hopelessly addicted public to tease us with mentions of it, > and even letting some folks at Worldcon see it, and then not letting the > rest of us get our grubby little paws on it... > > > Waiting not-so-patiently, It was being printed during GenCon (mid-August) and it was hoped that it would be ready by that convention. It wasn't (much to my disappointment) and the printing process continues. With no other evidence, my _guess_ is that it'll be here this month. (The cover looked awesome, btw, but the one to Heaven and Hell really blew me away!) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 20:48:16 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Lilith's Potence On Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:24:24 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >You *might* be able to go to Bob and toss him against a wall and rifle >through his pockets, and hold up his $50 and then read his Need to >have that $50 to pay off some debt before the kneecappers come by, >and then you smile, lower Bob, and hand him his $50 -- and say, "Oh, >and now you owe me, for my mercy now." > >So if you have someone in your power, *sure* that he's about to >be toasted, you can look for the Need for survival. Basically, >you'd have had to "steal" his ability to control whether he survives >or not, and then give it back to him. > >Does that work out? I think this still allows for Geas factories: A Lilim health spa, "Oh, now you Need the steam cabinet door unlocked or you'll die? You own me." Nope. No sale here. The net effect of all the Lilim's actions is that the Lilim has *not* rendered a service. No service, no Geas. I feel the Lilim can do nothing to create the Need she fulfills, directly or indirectly. If she discovers something that will create a Need and follows it, ok; but if she contrives to create the Need, she has done a disservice, not a service. Not relevant to all Lilim, but perhaps indicative of thier tone: "While in Lilith's service, it is dissonant to accept restraints or orders [on yourself or on anyone?] except as part of a freely negotiated agreement." p. 150. Actually, maybe this *does* apply to all Lilim. Is a Lilim working for Kronos a Lilim of Kronos or a Lilim of Lilith in service to Kronos? IOW is she still subject to Lilith's dissonance conditions? It might be best if they were. I almost think Lilim need a time limit on how often they can create Geases. Imagine a Lilim as a drug dealer: She could get hundreds of Geases a day, even if we were to hold that on the second day she had created their Needs, so she hadn't done a net service. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 17:01:27 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #329 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) > [BTW, I was denying that anything I could say is ever wrong. Everything in the FAQ is 100% correct. The next version will be even _more_ correct. The ways of the FAQ-keeper are ineffable. Fnord. Buy more bonds. The last sentence was true. The one before that did not exist.] < When did the Curia elect you? and what did you do to the dissenting cardinals? Adam Canniig ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 17:01:30 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Lilim Trackers From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) > It looks like that ability is going to removed anyways in favor of the 'detective Lilim' who has to track down people who owe her 'favors'. (This from current discussion from the AA's and DP's of In Nomine...)< Good, that has far more roleplaying [and incidently GM plot control] opportunities than the other. It also helps emphasise the Lilim's noncombat socialisation orientation rather more than some of the recent suggestions. Adam Canning Dahak@Compuserve.Com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 17:01:22 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Eli is more than he appears >Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 18:56:15 +0100 From: "cd skogsberg" Casca wrote: > On Mon, 8 Sep 1997, Jo Hart wrote: [God] > He doesn't speak much, but when He does, angels listen, by God. ;) Ehm, pardon me. But shouldn't that be "angels listen, *to* God"? cd - - -- Don't try to eff the ineffable. < Not to mention those poor unfortunate angels who have Yahweh as a direct duperior and get no choir or servetor attunements or destinctions and have the dubious pleasure of working for the most critical of the Angelic Superiors. > I actually like this interpretation better, except for one thing: since > when has any archangel ever listened to Eli? With the exception of > Novalis and Blandine, all the others think he's nuts and irresponsible. Since when does any Archangel other than Yves listen to God? God's motives are incomprehensible and his means unlikely, so are Eli's. The only depiction we have had of God so far has him doing Groucho Marx impressions and he is described as rarely talking to Arch angels any way. The fact thaty few of the arch angels take Eli's advice is not relevant if they do not know he is god in disguise. Adam Canning Dahak@Compuserve.Com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 17:01:34 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Converting Lillim >Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 12:48:05 -0400 (EDT) From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Second, I'm a Game Master who has a bunch of overly responsible characters. Two Mercurians of Yves tag teamed with a Malakite of Michael and a Kyriotate of Jean to Good Cop/Bad Cop a Lilim of Andrephalus into converting *in their first adventure*! Now I've got a Lilim with a Geas/6 to "try to convert to the light." To make matters worse, the only Archangel to show up was Eli. Then, a new player showed up and wants to play the Lilim, who has been hiding out at various tethers around Seattle. So, does anyone have any ideas about the servitor attunements this "Bright" Lilim of Eli will end up with? Or for that matter, would she keep her old attunement? Thanks, Mark (Harried but loving it...) - ------------------------------< As far as I can tell She retains the basic Lilim attunement [doing favours for geases]. She Looses all Celestial Discord if she has any but retains any Etherial or Corporeal discords she may have. She only aquires the Dissonance conditions for her new Boss [In Eli's case If your not having fun why not?] when she has gained at least 1 servitor attunement and ridded herself of discord. [These two are the minimum for her to be considered an Angel since Lilim have no choir attunement, until she manages these two she is still on parole.] Can earn Servitor attunements, Distinctions and Choir Attunements[There is officially none for Bright Lilim see the Resorces on the In Nomine Collection 1 for other ideas][In Elis case She could end up with Cherub, Ofanim, Elohim, Malakim, and Mercurian, Seraphim of Creation need to use the Seraph resonance to use their attunement and the Kyriotate of Creation attunement , suprise, suprise, raises the question can I buy this to use when I'm using the Song of Possession or does it just work with the Kyriotates resonance.] She retains any rites she had previously [but using them is dissonant] She gains the new Superiors rites [ I.e. 3 precision based skills, consensual sex and calming children] She loses any Attunements to Demon Prices either Choir, servitor or Distinctions. Lillith is not technically a demon prince but grants no attunements any way. If she is to quote the Redemption box "a dark lord" then Bright Lilim might lose the bonus to summoning Lilith. Adam Canning Dahak@Compuserve.Com Who wonders why lilim show up as demons if they have aura regardless? of which sde they are on and why his group of angels asked a Lilim with Aura/6 for help in Feast of Blades. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 17:48:38 -0400 (EDT) From: JosephMoon@AOL.COM Subject: Re: IN> Eli is more than he appears From: Adam Canning >>Conclusion: Eli is Jesus >No, Eli is Yahweh's Vessel which he uses to communicate with the Arch >Angels much like the Angels use vessels to talk to humans. But wasn't Jesus Yahweh's Vessel for communicating with humans? Wouldn't it be convienent to use the same vessel for both? I think your point strengthens Casca's interesting little speculation more than it contradicts it. Just my $.02 JosephMoon@aol.com http://members.aol.com/josephmoon/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 18:01:12 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilith's Potence At 8:48 PM +0000 9/8/97, Walt Mazur wrote: >On Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:24:24 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy >wrote: > >>You *might* be able to go to Bob and toss him against a wall and rifle >>through his pockets, and hold up his $50 and then read his Need to >>have that $50 to pay off some debt before the kneecappers come by, >>and then you smile, lower Bob, and hand him his $50 -- and say, "Oh, >>and now you owe me, for my mercy now." >> >>So if you have someone in your power, *sure* that he's about to >>be toasted, you can look for the Need for survival. Basically, >>you'd have had to "steal" his ability to control whether he survives >>or not, and then give it back to him. >> >>Does that work out? > >I think this still allows for Geas factories: A Lilim health spa, "Oh, now >you Need the steam cabinet door unlocked or you'll die? You own me." Nope. >No sale here. It's not automatic -- she has to be able to look into the person's eyes and make her resonance roll. Even a Perception 12 Lilim will fail sometimes, especially if she's using the difficulty modifiers to sense the Need she most wants to find. I see no difference in the Lilim locking someone in the steam cabinet vs. an evil human doing it and the Lil just shows up, or even vs. the person himself doing it accidentily. Mind you, a Free Lilim would probably find putting someone in captivity *distasteful*... (Hey, they can get a Geas *and* Essence!) Anyone doing that a lot will probably hit a Divine Intervention. "Uh, gee, sorry, Lord Michael... Didn't know that you liked health spas..." Or perhaps the Need isn't there in a way she can fulfill! >The net effect of all the Lilim's actions is that the Lilim >has *not* rendered a service. No service, no Geas. I feel the Lilim can do >nothing to create the Need she fulfills, directly or indirectly. So one with "Vessel by Andre" can't walk by and sense someone's desire to go to bed with her? I don't think that's right either: she should be able to take advantage of Needs that her presence calls up. [...] >Not relevant to all Lilim, but perhaps indicative of thier tone: "While in >Lilith's service, it is dissonant to accept restraints or orders [on >yourself or on anyone?] except as part of a freely negotiated agreement." On yourself, I believe. It's merely distasteful to view them on another. >p. 150. Actually, maybe this *does* apply to all Lilim. Is a Lilim working >for Kronos a Lilim of Kronos or a Lilim of Lilith in service to Kronos? IOW >is she still subject to Lilith's dissonance conditions? It might be best if >they were. They are not. Only Free Lilim access Lilith's Rites & Dissonance conditions. If one has pledged herself to a Prince, that is now the Word that she can access & must uphold. (I.e., she gets the Rites, and the Dissonance for that Prince's Word.) A Free Lilim may acquire various Band Attunements from various Princes, but so long as she has not pledged herself to one, she is sorta-kinda a Lilim of Freedom -- and gets those Rites and Dissonance conditions, but no-one else's. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Sep 97 18:14 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Night Music: "...a skill known at Level 6 or better..." [johnk:] > Seriously, though, unless overruled, skills top out >at 6. Except for animals -- I seem to recall that they sometimes have high skill levels in the box with the sample animals, to get their target numbers to something reasonable for skills like Tracking. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 18:39:38 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Talking to Lilim At 5:01 PM -0400 9/8/97, Adam Canning wrote: [...] >Who wonders why lilim show up as demons if they have aura regardless? of >which sde they are on I think I would say no... >and why his group of angels asked a Lilim with Aura/6 > for help in Feast of Blades. Um. They were sure that she'd be so desperate for help that she'd trade favors with them nicely? (My Renegade had an excuse -- she was a *sister*, and my Renegade's only 5 years old...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 20:00:53 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Beth, Archangel of Archives (LONG) [I think this is everything... It's actually done up mostly seriously, be warned!] Beth, Archangel of Archives (arcangel@io.com) ============================================= One of the little-known Archangels, Beth spends most of her time in Yves' Library, sorting, filing, cataloging, reading... The rest of the time, she's hanging out around the Halls of Progress -- usually with a certain Elohite of Lightning. O;> Her Choir is debatable, but she seems to be either a Bright Lilim with the Kyriotate resonance (from the Master of Divine Knowledge Distinction), or vice versa. She's also been known to show almost Elohite "but on the other hand" waffling, but her occasional emotional reactions show that she hasn't gone that far yet... Given some of her rants on "Lilim Rights," most think she's a Redeemed Daughter. (She's also been known to say she was sired by a Balseraph; take that for what it's worth...) If you want to find some information, Beth is usually the person to ask first -- if she doesn't know the information, she often knows who will. She's particularly adept at hunting out records of discussions: her function in the Seraphim Council is that of transcriber. Though she is one of the least involved in the War (just don't threaten her precious records and books!), there are a few who serve the word of Archives... Dissonance ========== Destroying or misfiling records. Defacing books counts, though not necessarily underlining in a textbook. Yelling in libraries is not dissonant, but it is highly frowned upon. Choir Attunements ================= Most of the Servitors of Archives work in Yves' Library, and have appropriate duties there. Not all have the Celestial Song of Tongues, but it's reccomended. Many Servitors are actually Relievers of Archives, with one (or more) of the Choir Attunements to assist them in their duties. When they gain Essence, this is 1 Essence per day. (24 hour period, in Heaven.) Seraphim: Seraphim of Archives are assigned to coordinate errata, correct mistakes in books (keeping records of the errors that were discovered) and proof-read. With their resonance for facts, they also make good technical writers. They gain 1 Essence for completely proof-checking text for errors, and do not suffer check-digit penalties to their resonance rolls for visual-only reproductions -- i.e., text. (p. 57 for the CD penalties.) Cherubim: Beth's Cherubim keep track of specific reference books, making sure that they're available and complete. When someone needs to know the "official" seven Archangels, it's a Cherub who will go digging that up -- often from several different books. They gain 1 Essence for answering a question that pertains to their attuned books, and can attune to any number of books so long as they all fall into the same "catagory." (Baby names, gardening, Ethereal Spirits, Medical, etc.) Word-Bound Cherubim of Archives usually go for things like "Angel of Baby Names Books," or "Angel of Anthropology Books." Ofanim: The Wheels of Archives are responsible for "epherema" -- mostly periodicals, newspapers, magazines, etc. They gain 1 Essence for placing a selection of magazines into a binder and filing it on the shelves. (And including all references for the databases, of course.) They can use their resonance to seek out materials in a place where information is kept -- they'll be lead unerring to the Mystery section in a bookstore (if that's what they want to look for), the correct drawer of microfiche, and the right key to access a computer's Search Database functions... Elohim: The Elohim of Archives resolve contradictions between books, deciding which ones are more accurate and passing that on to the Seraphim for errata-listing. (This often means they work with material regarding the sciences, where the newest breakthroughs happen; you can find many of them around Jean's Cathedral.) Beth's Elohim regain 1 Essence for sorting through several books and drawing out the most correct information. With at least fifteen minutes and a successful Precision roll, they can cite references and precedents to prove/disprove just about anything -- the check digit of their roll subtracts from rolls to resist going along with what the Elohite thinks is right. Malakim: Beth's few Malakim are the Servitors of Archives most likely to be found on the corporeal plane, busily collecting books (especially rare and out-of-print ones) and defending them from those who would ban, burn or otherwise mutilate books. Celestially, they're mostly restricted to wandering around the Library shushing loud people and thwarting anyone trying to steal books. They gain 1 Essence from saving a book from destruction. With a resonance roll, they can draw out the sins and virtues related to how the subject treated books and information. They often take Oaths relating to their jobs: "Never allow the defacement of a book when it's my choice" is popular, though it disqualifies them from going onto campuses (hilighting text usually counts). At least one Malakite of Archives is sadly wandering the world, seeking someone who will part (honorably) with the first of Ms. Egan's "Ivory" series. Another haunts used bookstores for the Alan Burt Akers/Dray Prescott "Scorpio" epic. Bright Lilim: They know which books you *need* to read, and they'll happily tote out a stack of them. They're most concerned with genre fiction. Lilim of Archives are able to tell with eye contact which kinds of books a subject enjoys most, and can suggest similar ones that she's read herself. They get 1 Essence when someone enjoys a recomended book (one Essence per day, no matter how many people have been enjoying it...). They are very good at inflicting Geases that protect archives -- their Ethereal Forces subtract from the subject's Will roll for such instructions, but they will suffer dissonance if a Geas of theirs causes the subject to violate Archives' dissonance conditions! It is suspected that not all of Beth's Lilim are Bright -- archives are archives, and having a spy in the heart of Kronos' Principality would be just her speed. Not that she'd bother to mention it to anyone unless they asked, though some of the links might lead to: "Filed: Hell." Her version of "Restricted Stacks," perhaps. Kyriotates: Everywhere at once, the Dominations of Archives are the ones who make sure that there's a place for everything, and everything in its place. They're concerned with overall filing, keeping related books together, putting the dewy decimal codes (or bar codes) on everything, and maintaining the Archive Web-page links ("Fiction: Little Fuzzy, H. Beam Piper. Written Sequals: , Unwritten Sequals: "). They get 1 Essence for finishing a series of elegant, intuitive and complete links. They can also possess *books*, for minutes equal to total Forces, and access any information within the book with an Intelligence roll. (This ability will work for a non-Kyriotate Servitor of Archives with the Song of Possession, too.) Mercurians: These are the keepers of non-text-media archives -- paintings, music, sculpture or videos -- though they are expected to make sure that they've got all the appropriate references to text works (the complete plays of Shakespear, for instance, or Mercedes Lackey's "Eumenides" and David Weber's _Path of the Fury_). They get 1 Essence for watching/listening to/viewing a new work and adding the appropriate references to incorporate it into the Library archives. Similar to the Lilim of Archives, they can tell what sorts of art/plays/music a person appreciates with a Perception roll, and know which similar things (that they've viewed themselves) would be well-received. Servitor Attunements ==================== ("You get to read all these *book*! What do you want with Servitor Attunements?") Literacy - -------- With a touch, this Servitor can grant someone Literacy in any language that he knows, for a number of hours equal to his total Forces. For 1 Essence, he can grant Literacy (only) in a language he does *not* know (as with the Corporeal Song of Tongues) for an equal time. If he cares to spend Essence equal to the *subject's* Forces, he may make this *permanent* with a successful roll against Intelligence! (This is noisy, and if the Intelligence roll fails, that language cannot be given to the subject by that Servitor.) Divine Enthusiasm - ----------------- Even as Yves' Servitors may use Divine Logic to show how something is obviously right, so may Beth's use this Attunement to show how something is worth reading/seeing/thinking -- passing on their own true enthusiasm to someone else for check-digit hours with a Precision roll. If someone wishes to resist, they may, with Will; otherwise, they will become passionately interested in the subject. (Elohim so "infected" are, however, quite able to prioritize -- the enthusiasm will not cause them dissonance.) Relic: ====== Library Card - ------------ This owner-only relic comes in the form of a library-card rectangle, the substance of which depends on where one is. (Plastic is most common.) With a turn of concentration, the user can change it into any kind of library or bookstore-discount card. The owner must be physically near the library or bookstore in question. The card bears the appropriate signature and numerical code/magnetic strip/barcode to be accepted as a legitimate card for checking out books from a library, or getting a discount on buying them. If you don't return checked-out books on time, you don't get dissonant, but the Archangel of Archives *will* be annoyed with you. Distinctions ============ ("Distinctions? Oh, right, gonna need those. Um... Librarian.") There is only one Distinction of Archives: Librarian. Upon entering a place where text is stored (or accessing a computer with that data), a Librarian will automatically be able to access the titles, subjects and authors of all the textual material in the area. With a successful Perception roll, the Librarian may also get a brief summary. A Librarian may voluntarily restrict this ability to "all books within eyesight" to prevent brain-explosions when in Yves' Library. Relations ========= Relatively inoffensive, Beth has so far managed to avoid the worst wrath of the "old guard," though she is the youngest Archangel by far. Bemusingly, it sometimes seems as if she's unaware of her status, and functions as a Servitor of Yves -- indeed, many of *her* Servitors report to him as well; their angels often have Servitor Attunements from both. Michael is usually reduced to standing in a corner, covering his eyes with his hand and shaking his head -- she's too focused on her precious archives to be part of any mysterious schemes of Destiny. Allied: Eli, Jean, Yves Associated: Blandine, Gabriel Neutral: everyone else Hostile: Jordi, sometimes (his Servitors don't respect books enough) Basic Rites =========== * Learn something new. (Once per day.) * Show someone how to find a book/reference work (via computer lookup, file-cards, etc.) (Once per day.) Chance of Invocation: 4 Beth's primary goal in life is collecting and providing information; this includes providing information to her Servitors. Invocation Modifiers - -------------------- +1: A well-read book, oft-viewed video/art or favorite recording +2: A rare or out-of-print book/video/etc. +3: A thick reference work; archives of newsgroups or mailing lists may count +4: A well-read series of books or reference works +5: A bookstore or medium-sized public/school library +6: A *big* library -- at least three stories. (Austin Public Library, for instance.) Peer Opinions ============= Blandine: "She's a bit overly focused with recording things, writing them down so they can be found again -- but I'm hardly going to complain when she's so enthusiastic about preserving dreams." Chistopher: "She'll read a book to a child as happily as she hands a tome to a scholar -- learning should be one of the joys of childhood, and she knows that." David: "The first records were preserved on stone. Who am I to argue with that?" Dominic: "Her Elohim make fine lawyers and legal assistants, and I am... indebted to her for the team she sent to reorganize my own records after some of Janus' angels got... over-enthusiastic." Eli: "Some things can't be recorded -- a good sunset just *loses* something in the transition -- but preserving beauty for others, that's cool." Gabriel: "I don't know why she praises me for giving and preserving knowledge. I was just doing my job, then. Still, passion for knowledge is passion none-the-less." Janus: "Records, filing, everything in its place... I'd get fed up with her if she hadn't given me that complete "Simon Templar" set." ("Does this mean that you'll put the Library map back?") Jean: "Computers and records go together quite well." Jordi: "Records are a man-made artifact. Instinct is written in the genes, and true knowledge cannot be bound within sheets of paper. Still, without the memory of the lost species, humans would not know to mourn them." ("I love you too, Jordi -- what, no comment about library cats?") Laurence: "It is said that those who do not know history will repeat its mistakes -- and there are, indeed, many useful resources within the Library. Someone needs to keep those resources from being lost." Marc: "If I have to hear about how awful waiting for an over-seas Pratchett book is again... I'm doing what I can! The electronic-books stuff is in Jean's hands right now." Michael: "I'll write my memoirs *after* the War is done. I could wish she didn't hang around Yves so much, but his notions don't seem to affect her much." Novalis: "I admit, I'm glad her Word no longer *requires* the slaughter of trees to pursue! And there's plenty of joy curling up with a good book in a garden." ("Just you wait -- I'll have people with books-on-disk curled up in gardens yet.") Yves: "The future has its roots in the past -- and having the lessons of the past at our fingertips is a blessing." Most of the Princes couldn't care less about an Archangel of Archives, but you can get them to give opinions anyway. There's not much that's more opinionated than a Prince. Andrealphus: "She keeps everything -- even if she does crate the porn up and stick it in the basements. I'm sure my annotated Kama Sutra is up there somewhere." ("The Elohim decided the Creation edition was more accurate and useful.") Asmodeus: "If I find another spy of Archives in my Principality..." ("But we'd tidy up your records for you!") Baal: "Yeah, yeah, so they've got the records of all the old warriors up there. It just means Larry's predictable." Beleth: "Nightmares need no 'recording' -- they are engraved in the victim's brain." Belial: "Books are paper. They burn niiiiiice." ("_Farenheit 451_, right here in living color, ladies and gents.") Fleurity: "The worlds you can visit with books are nothing compared to the worlds I can unlock inside your head." Furfur: "That crap can *never* be Hardcore." Haagenti: "I ate a book once. Dry." (*sob*) Kobal: "Books are so boring. Not one of them contains the Ultimate Joke." (*SOB* "He just doesn't *get it*!") Kronos: "In some ways, she is even more my rival than Yves -- her Word and mine are as close as Jean's and Vapula's. She would subsume me if she could, but use the past to inspire Destiny." Lilith: "Oh, *her*. I could wish she didn't give away so much knowledge for nothing, but that's angels for you." Malphas: "Archives. So? Unless I can get someone arguing over filing methods..." Nybbas: "Reading, reading, reading! I hate books! At least she's keeping all the soaps and talk-shows!" ("Something's gotta prop up the ceiling.") Saminga: "Books are useless. They don't keep anyone 'alive' after I've claimed them." Valefor: "Okay, if she'd been around when I got the Nostradamus stuff, I'd have had a harder time of it. As it is, she keeps sending me these 'overdue' slips demanding its return!" ("To: Prince Valefor of Theft. Re: Nostradamus. This work is now seven centuries overdue. Please return it and pay the library fine. Your library card has been revoked for five centuries now. --Archangel Beth") Vapula: "Who needs technical writers? I know how to work everything around here, and my instruction manuels are perfectly understandable!" ("Yeah, yeah. But Jean's machines don't crash and lose data.") - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #330 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.