From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Sep 9 19:53:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA09435 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 19:53:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id TAA11255 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 19:30:32 -0500 Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 19:30:32 -0500 Message-Id: <199709100030.TAA11255@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #332 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, September 9 1997 Volume 01 : Number 332 In this digest: Re: IN> Lilith's Potence Re: IN> ghosts Re: IN> Beth, Archangel of Archives IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #330 IN> Lilim Again Re: IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #330 Re: IN> Lilim Again IN> The Lord God Allmighty IN> What Geases Do IN> The Curia IN> Converting Lillim Re: IN> Eli is more than he appears Re: IN> Converting Lillim Re: IN> ghosts Re: Gaming War Stories (Re: IN> Lilim Geases) Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? Re: IN> Night Music: "...a skill known at Level 6 or better..." Re: IN> Lilith's Potence Geas Entrapment (Re: IN> Lilith's Potence) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 14:09:33 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilith's Potence At 12:54 AM +0000 9/9/97, Walt Mazur wrote: >On Mon, 8 Sep 1997 18:01:12 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy >wrote: > >>>I think this still allows for Geas factories: A Lilim health spa, "Oh, now >>>you Need the steam cabinet door unlocked or you'll die? You own me." Nope. >>>No sale here. >> >> It's not automatic -- she has to be able to look into >>the person's eyes and make her resonance roll. Even a Perception >>12 Lilim will fail sometimes, especially if she's using the >>difficulty modifiers to sense the Need she most wants to find. > >Perception 12 is auto-success. Perception 12 is auto-success, but you have to roll anyway, both to get the check digit, and find out if you get 111. If you get 111, you don't succeed, and something *NASTY* happens. >I would argue the Need is so obvious--either >the person is screaming to get out or has fainted--she's got to be at +2 >for Very Easy No -- looking for a specific Need is at -2, if it's obvious. Unless something happens during Editing, this is going to be canon. It may be obvious, but you have to find the strands of the need in the Symphony before you can knot them into a geas. And the level of the Geas is still the check digit -- if somebody thinks that getting saved from a deathtrap is a Geas/1, that's all you get. Tough. Some Needs-strands are easier to tie knots in than others. >and she can get the resonance +2 for physically touching, >which she'll have to do, to open the eyes of a fainted victim. Now *there*, I'll say it won't work -- you can't sense the Needs of an unconscious person!! >>I see no difference in the Lilim locking someone in the steam >>cabinet vs. an evil human doing it and the Lil just shows up, >>or even vs. the person himself doing it accidentily. Mind you, >>a Free Lilim would probably find putting someone in captivity >>*distasteful*... (Hey, they can get a Geas *and* Essence!) > >Let's take a mundane example: if you steal someone's car and then give it >back, are you satisfying a need of theirs? Not when viewed morally, >legally, etc. Demons don't need morals or legalities (unless they're of the Game). And if the person really needs that car back, then yes, you're fulfilling a need as much as if you were a Bright who recovered it from demons of Theft. If your "can't fulfill a Need they created themselves" were in effect, then no Lilim of Lust could get a Geas for going to bed with someone! And *that's* just plain wrong. >Besides, it just makes Lilim too powerful, as I think the >steam cabinet example shows. And what if the Geas/6 applied is, "Come for a >daily steam bath"? I wouldn't allow such circular Geases-to-create-more- >Geases, but it's not canonically illegal AFAIK. Hm. Cool Stupid Lilim Trick. I'll remember it. Of course, the other side of this is that even a Will 1 human with a Geas/6 on him can always get a Divine Intervention on *his* part, and maybe even slip the Geas if he spends Essence... (I'd sure spend Essence to resist going someplace that nearly killed me!) So, let's see, somebody obscene like K.K. with a 12 Perception and a steam bath. (Sounds like something she'd do, y'know?) She has to roll to get a Need -- say that she spends a couple Essence to boost her Perception up to 12 again. Chance of Failure: low, but there's that 111 possibility. Then she inflicts a Geas on someone. He rolls Will minus Geas-level, and may spend Essence. If he wins, she not only loses the Geas, but gets dissonance. Owch. So, with two chances to fail, and a Geas-level that might just be Geas/1... I don't think it's that powerful. >>Anyone doing that a lot will probably hit a Divine Intervention. >>"Uh, gee, sorry, Lord Michael... Didn't know that you liked >>health spas..." Or perhaps the Need isn't there in a way she >>can fulfill! > >Sure, so the Lilim says oops, sorry, and talks her way out of it, teleports >away, or just descends to Hell. Annoying, but no big deal. You have a lower opinion of Superiors than I do. "Uh, BYE!" "Not so fast." A Superior is *not* going to get "talked out of it," and with a Divine Intervention... Okay, teleport. And then there's the +20 disturbance of a Superior in corporeal form, right behind you. "I was talking to you..." DI shows up with someone doing something like this, it should be *spectacular* (if she's making the GM's life that miserable, then obviously God is annoyed, right?). If she gets away alive at all, she's probably owing a decade or two to the Superior she ticked off... >>>The net effect of all the Lilim's actions is that the Lilim >>>has *not* rendered a service. No service, no Geas. I feel the Lilim can do >>>nothing to create the Need she fulfills, directly or indirectly. >> >>So one with "Vessel by Andre" can't walk by and sense someone's >>desire to go to bed with her? I don't think that's right either: >>she should be able to take advantage of Needs that her presence >>calls up. > >The Need for sex was already there. She didn't create it. But she created the Need for sex with *her*. >If she walked by a gay man or a straight woman, she wouldn't get it. Multiple vessels, so useful... ;-) >Also, unless the Lilim >rapes him--which is unlikely to be a Need of his--he can just say, "No, >you're very beautiful, but I have a wife or lover already." This is what Seduction/6 is for. "But you know you want to. Just once, it won't matter... I'll show you such a good time..." She's also unlikely to get a *need* for sex with her! She might, on the other hand, get a Need for "sex with my girlfriend"... Now, would it count if she used the Song of Form to get that one...? (GM call, based on circumstances, I'd say.) >>>Not relevant to all Lilim, but perhaps indicative of thier tone: "While in >>>Lilith's service, it is dissonant to accept restraints or orders [on >>>yourself or on anyone?] except as part of a freely negotiated agreement." >> >>On yourself, I believe. It's merely distasteful to view them on >>another. > >But is this kind of Geas untrapment consistent with Lilith's Word? And if >they aren't supporting Lilith's Word, they're headed for trouble with her. The steam bath would probably get Lilith less likely to be nice with them. Doing it on a regular basis might well get a girl in trouble with her sisters as well. Game Mechanics aren't the *only* forms of control on egregious Stupid Demon/Angel Tricks. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 14:52:16 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> ghosts At 1:38 PM -0400 9/9/97, Casca wrote: >On Mon, 8 Sep 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> 'Course, the Glasswalkers would like Jean... > >....and would despise Vapula for the same reason. Definite Weaver there? >Since we're on this tangent, under which DP would 'Pollution' fall? I'm torn >between Vapula and Belial. Hrm.... Vapula, probably -- Belial just cares about burning, which doesn't include things like nuclear waste, quite. Vaps should keep an eye on his Word-Bound of Pollution, though -- that sounds like a candidate for another Prince... >> >And speaking of Garou, I've decided that in my games they're the >> >descendants of Jordi's Grigori. >> >> Hmmmm! Cool notion. (You've seen the Gargoyles in IN thing, right?) > >Actually, no. Why do you bring it up? I've seen "Gargoyles in WW," and I wrote up Gargoyles for In Nomine -- they're in "Settings" on my INC pages. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 14:50:05 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Beth, Archangel of Archives At 7:45 PM -0500 9/9/97, Shadowcat wrote: >On Tue, 9 Sep 1997 MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: > >> I will be using Beth in my campaign- I almost have to. One of the Mercurians >> of Yves in the party had the role of Hypatia of Alexandria for her first >> vessel. She is being played by my wife - an elementary school librarian. >> So now, I'll have a Servitor of Archives in service to Yves in the party. > > I will also be using her, for much the same reason. Fran took one >look at her, and decided to be a Servitor of Archives on loan to the >ARCHDEAN. This could get fun. Eeep! *Both* of them? But are they ever seen in the same place at the same time? O;> Hm. Yes, they'd be friendly. (I'd probably make Archives a Kyrio then, though -- though it's hard to tell when you've got that Master of Destiny Distinction... Why am I now reminded of the _Oh My Goddess!_ manga, where Urd splits herself into "Mini-Urds" a lot?) > Also has anyone noticed that all of Archbeths realy cool "minor" >ArchAngels work with or for Yves? It's my library -- I'm working on building a Tether there... (Though the AA of Archives is also seen around Jean's Cathedral as well.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 15:30:12 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #330 Message text written by INTERNET:in_nomine-l@LISTS.IO.COM >>and why his group of angels asked a Lilim with Aura/6 > for help in Feast of Blades. Um. They were sure that she'd be so desperate for help that she'd trade favors with them nicely? (My Renegade had an excuse -- she was a *sister*, and my Renegade's only 5 years old...) < No, my party fluffed their perception rolls, so they still don't know who she is, just that she seemed to be on another side from the Balseraph. So they asked her for help against him. Adam Canning ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 15:30:20 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Lilim Again - - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net >So if you have someone in your power, *sure* that he's about to be toasted, you can look for the Need for survival. Basically, you'd have had to "steal" his ability to control whether he survives or not, and then give it back to him.< Not to mention the =fact that you might just pick up a different level need especially in the $50 case since even if your GM allows you to feather the risk you can only shift 1 point to or from the check digit [incidently what are you doing to make it easier or harder to sense the victims need, squinting,?, using a magnifyiong glass?] so while you may have him captive and in fear for his life you could well spend a lot of time discovering that he needs to get in touch with his girlfriend or that he needs you to drop dead or that he needs the police to arrive and arrest you. Since we are on this subject here is a list of suggested needs for random individuals: These are intended more to give a feel than to be absolute. some might move several levels under the right circumstances. Need 1 A can of soda A cigarette Someone to smile and say hello to you. when you are depressed The destruction of the Iraqi Government [If you are a major world leader.] A tape of a B5 episode. A kiss Need 2 Returning a library book today. A lift home when your car has broken down. The latest Virile Young Teens Album. Someone to smile and say hello to you when you are very depressed. A bottle of alcoholic beverage. To get away from the paparatzi Need 3 a point of essence to get rid of a note of dissonance. Someone to explain to your girlfriend just what was going on [if you ere innocent of whatever she believes you to have been doing] Someone cute to dance with [so your friends won't laugh] Psychiatric help. a dose of a controlled substance. $500 for a package holiday. Need 4 $40,000 to pay off bad buisness debts $1,000 to pay this weeks morgage Someone to explain to your girlfriend just what was going on [If you were guilty of something]. Somone to go and do your A level paper for you. A job [if the individual is unemployed.] The cheerleader to get boils. Need 5 An Orchid from deepest Amazonia $100,000 to pay for an unisured car crash. To gain a distinction [Celestials and soldiers only obviously] For the Lilim to repent. A Conservative victory at the next general e;lection [possibly as high as a need 7] ****[Sending this suggestion is illegal under british telecomunications law.] Escorting out of the dangerous bits of washing ton back to the nice safe tourist area. Destruction of the records of your participation in the SS during WW2 A Foxhunting ban Someone to steal the evidence with which you are being blackmailed. Need 6 The death of the President Meet Elvis $1,000,000 to pay for experimental surgery. A baby For the percieving lilim to drop dead. For the forces of darkness to surrender. [Popular for Malakim] True Love The destruction of a political or economic group. Adam Canning Dahak@Compuserve.Com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 16:02:26 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #330 At 3:30 PM -0400 9/9/97, Adam Canning wrote: >Message text written by INTERNET:in_nomine-l@LISTS.IO.COM >>>and why his group of angels asked a Lilim with Aura/6 >> for help in Feast of Blades. > >> Um. They were sure that she'd be so desperate for help >>that she'd trade favors with them nicely? (My Renegade had >>an excuse -- she was a *sister*, and my Renegade's only 5 years >>old...) > >No, my party fluffed their perception rolls, so they still don't know who >she is, just that she seemed to be on another side from the Balseraph. So >they asked her for help against him. They fluffed Perception rolls at *PLUS SIX*???? These are *angels*???? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 16:12:45 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Again At 3:30 PM -0400 9/9/97, Adam Canning wrote: >- --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net >>So if you have someone in your power, *sure* that he's about to >be toasted, you can look for the Need for survival. Basically, >you'd have had to "steal" his ability to control whether he survives >or not, and then give it back to him.< > >Not to mention the fact that you might just pick up a different level need >especially in the $50 case since even if your GM allows you to feather the >risk you can only shift 1 point to or from the check digit [incidently what >are you doing to make it easier or harder to sense the victims need, >squinting,?, using a magnifyiong glass?] Listening more carefully and ignoreing everything that doesn't have the "feel" you want. You may miss other things, doing that... >so while you may have him captive >and in fear for his life you could well spend a lot of time discovering >that he needs to get in touch with his girlfriend or that he needs you to >drop dead or that he needs the police to arrive and arrest you. Exactly! [examples of Needs snipped] Right -- and then there's this list of what *I've* gotten... Needs *I* get: "New drummer for band." (Level 2, on Eli...) "have this demon understand the Bright side of the Force." (Level 5; resonating Elohim is worthless...) "a programmer who will do a boring task for little money." (Level 3; random human) "a girlfriend." (yay! Finally! Level 3, and easily done!) "A cruel person to vigalante at." (Cherub of Fire, level 3.) "A student." (Malakite of War, don't ask; a Level 6!) "$20 for a CD." (that one was easy; Level 1, on a human.) "The Theft attunement of Swipe." (One of the Brat Pack; Level 6) "a chance to steal something in the airport lockers." (A level 2, I think, on one of the Brat Pack.) "A fast way out." (Level 1, another Brat Packer. Might have that one.) "to talk to that cute guy." (A human, and a Level 1.) "something really kinky." (the Seraph of Creation, don't ask), "to finish high-school and have a stable, supportive family. (Level 6, on a 16-year-old Soldier...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 16:25:32 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> The Lord God Allmighty Message text written by INTERNET:in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >*Where* did you get this from? < Pyramid Magazines write ups on God and Lucifer. God shows up after an angels suffured Vessel destruction and If I am sourcing it right does a Groucho Marx Impersination. Lucifer has a conversation from his chains at the bottom of the pit with a Demon who has been exploring in the wrong sectors of Hell. Adam Canning ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 16:25:40 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> What Geases Do From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) >>So one with "Vessel by Andre" can't walk by and sense someone's >desire to go to bed with her? I don't think that's right either: >she should be able to take advantage of Needs that her presence >calls up. The Need for sex was already there. She didn't create it. If she walked by a gay man or a straight woman, she wouldn't get it. Also, unless the Lilim rapes him--which is unlikely to be a Need of his--he can just say, "No, you're very beautiful, but I have a wife or lover already." < Actualy Lilim of Lust tend to have Dark Desire and so can create a desire in the person. Adam Canning ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 16:25:37 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> The Curia From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) > All the electees were locked in a room until they decided which one was to be chosen and fed nothing but Bolivian short-stem Frop. Due to mild indigestion, I boiled it in a stew rather than smoking my share and this gave me the clarity of vision to realize that I must carefully side-step the selection process by bludgeoning all the other candidates and faking their signatures on the voting forms. As expected, I was risen up by unanimous acclamation and have held this office ever since then.< So green smoke to inform the faithful then. Adam Canning Fnord "The Protcols of the Elders of Zion are approximately true for sufficiently strange definitions of Zion" Fnord"Eli denys all responsibilty for the Priory of Zion" Fnord ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 16:25:43 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Converting Lillim From: Frank Lazar > I think you're mostly right, but the reformed Angel does ore at least *should* acquire the dissonance particular to the given Archangel, and use of the rites, but no attunements (beyond applicable generic Choir) to start with.< As it stands only when you have been sworn in ie aquired at least the Choir attunement and 1 servitor attunement and removed all your discord are you bound to the Dissonance conditions. Thats also the point that the Heavenly Host starts to trust you. Until then you can still fall on a single dissonance roll and the Malakim are probably following you around to make sure you remember which side you are on. Falling is easier the Demon prince who's service the new demon sweares to gives him the Band Attunements, rites and dissonacne conditions for free at the start of thier relationship. Of course this process does invlove when joining Vapula, passing through the Giant Liquidiser. My sense of Moral Decency leads me to refrain from speculating what happens to new recruits that choose to serve Andrealphus. Adam Canning ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 16:52:20 -0400 (EDT) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> Eli is more than he appears I might sound more then a bit insane, since it's been one of those days. So excuse my aimless ramblings. I was thinking of the Eli is Christ thread, one I have taken a particular shine to. And combined with the Dominic is a Balseraph thread, it makes for all sorts of angst, in various sick and twisted ways - several of which I'll hand to my players on a platter to think about for a while. They ALWAYS need more to think about. But I was off thinking about, oddly enough, Laurence, and his big Christianity drive. It's pretty clear that ole buddy Larry has made his decision that he will be the patron of Paladins, as long as they support HIS chosen religion in HIS manner. This is all well and good, as long as you don't explain to him that a Bodhisattva is clearly Theravada Buddhism and play a prominent role in the Lotus Sutra. (He's confused, but we still love him.) In connection to this, I think of Gabe's comment about Larry in "Night Music" about Larry being Dominic's lap-dog. And, it seems to me, to some extent, Laurence is the marionette dancing on the ends of Dominic's strings - a convenient place to have a very dangerous Malakite if you happen to be a Balseraph. But this has been discussed. So we have Dominic persecuting Eli for bringing Heresy to heaven. Eli is, or was, or inhabited the body of Christ, the man behind the shenanigans for the last 2000 years, participatory or not, since it's hard to participate when you're mostly dead. In persecuting Michael and Gabriel, and playing games with Laurence, he's doing a very good job of following through on a word of Corruption, if you are after the biggest word of all, Creation, and want to bring it to its knees. I'm not going anywhere with this, actually. I just realized. But I do see if Eli is Christ reincarnated on the Earth once again, that Dominic is going to have a fun time whipping up Laurence and his Malakim to go after the followers of Eli, human or not, by telling him that Eli - or better yet, the vessel he inhabits - is out pretending to be the Messiah and is really a corrupted False Prophet of God who must be stopped. And Dominic is following through, corrupting the one thing Laurence loves, Christianity, by destroying the Christ. .... and Gabriel is mad. Michael and Yves, well, this would cause the War to erupt, possibly, in heaven if people knew. The others are well, the others. I'm gonna go wander off and ponder some more. Fun with Malakim! Do not taunt happy fun Malakim! Emily K. Dresner, M.S.Eng. Applications Programmer III Medical Center Information Technology Desktop Applications Team Current Quote: "Angels are just Demons not yet Fallen." - B. T. VandGrift ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 17:21:50 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Converting Lillim At 4:25 PM -0400 9/9/97, Adam Canning wrote: [...] >Of course this process does invlove when joining Vapula, passing through >the Giant Liquidiser. My sense of Moral Decency leads me to refrain from >speculating what happens to new recruits that choose to serve Andrealphus. Well, it's quite likely that whenever a Free Daughter buys a vessel from him, there's an, ah, field test to make sure it *works* properly. (There's a reason why smart Lilim don't pledge while "under the influence"....) And, well, one would expect that he'd do the same for his own Servitors, when sending them up to their first Earth assignment. Have to make sure that the vessel is within spec, don'tcha know. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 18:18:18 -0500 From: Colin Fredericks Subject: Re: IN> ghosts >Since we're on this tangent, under which DP would 'Pollution' fall? I'm torn >between Vapula and Belial. >-- Casca >Hrm.... Vapula, probably -- Belial just cares about burning, which >doesn't include things like nuclear waste, quite. Vaps should keep >an eye on his Word-Bound of Pollution, though -- that sounds like >a candidate for another Prince... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net Hail. While I like Beth's idea, pollution seems like a big, powerful Word. However, it is declining (albeit slowly) right now... I bet what happened is that the Demon Prince of Pollution was at his peak during the 1960's. However, losing power as a Demon Prince probably made him easy prey for someone else. Haagenti, perhaps, though I don't remember when exactly the mouth-on-legs rose to power. Maybe Novalis, David, or Eli got on a rare angry streak and kicked his butt. I bet the Word of Pollution is open. Stay Cool; -Sir Colin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 11:12:33 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: Gaming War Stories (Re: IN> Lilim Geases) At 10:52 AM 9/6/97 -0600, you wrote: >Jeff Miller noted; >> >Have we mentioned that Kyrios of Lightning are seriously obnoxious? >> Kyrios are supposed to be obnoxious. That's their job. > Heh..forget all that "omnipresence" and "perspective" stuff. >Kyriotates are The Obnoxiousness of the Lord, embodying those aspects of >Him that do things like throw snitfits and flood the entire planet, or >wreck the life of a devoted follower just to prove He can, even though He >already KNOWS He can and Lucifer does too... > Nah, no Flood stuff. I was just thinking of a kind of Celestial Kender. > >(Though, on a more serious note regarding Kyriotates of Jean...having read >a few reports on them from people's games, I'm thinking they should be >limited to a certain minimum tech level...`curtains' just shouldn't have >the complexity to support a Servitor of Lightning. Plastic blinds, >perhaps, because they're 1) plastic and 2) possess a minimal `mechanical' >quality, but..no curtains, clothing, blocks of wood, etc. Living out in a >wood or stone cabin with no modern touches should be as good against >Kyrio's of Lightning as clearing out all the flowers is for Servitors of >Novalis...) > I agree. However, I think that there should be sufficient coverage between groups of Kyriotates that a Kyriotate of *some* Superior who can possess everthing. Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 22:39:33 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN>Kyriotates in Humans, Vessel=? On Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:02:03 -0400, johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) wrote: > Nah, I wasn't annoyed, but the question about whether the >book models shotguns correctly isn't in question. We _know_ it's >wrong! =) True. >... (Don't even get me started on armor >and damage... the only accurate systems I've seen are woefully >overburdened with rules. Right now I go for rules-light and make >up the other effects!) I have the same feelings about armor and rules-light. > Here's an idea that also adds a bit more complexity, but >might be more suitable for some campaigns where you want a greater >range of damages. For every +4 Power on an attack, roll an >additional die. This increases the range with only minimal >increases to complexity. So a +6 Power weapon would get d6+2 >extra damage (added to the check digit) on a successful attack. As still another thought, how about this: A shotgun's damage is the sum of the d666, not just the check digit? Since skilled users at short ranges could hit with higher numbers, they could get better damage. An intermediate version of this could be used for other high damage weapons, where just the 2d6 of the d666 would be the damage, and the CD would only be used by the GM for atmosphere. This doesn't require any extra rolls or computations. I'd have to think about what a shotgun's power and acc should be for this rule, though. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 22:39:48 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Night Music: "...a skill known at Level 6 or better..." On Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:28:17 -0400, johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) wrote: > Hmmmmm.... Let's try something out and see what kind of problems >it generates. If it sounds good, we might make it official. > >Non-canon suggestion (please comment!) >-------------------- > Humans are allowed to have ONE skill above six. This >represents their greatest gift and is partly because of their >close ties to the Symphony. Not everyone has a skill this high... >in fact most people never even bother to excel at even _one_ thing, >but for those who try, there is something they are better at than >nearly anyone else. > This skill's limit is 9. Because the human is going far >beyond what most people ever dream of for that field, training >is nearly impossible to find or requires a _lot_ of experience >or research. > This could provide plot-hooks for GM's... "Only a master >painter can do the work we need." "Try Lakadiel, he's really >good." "You don't understand... we need someone _special_." I like it. I think I'd add two things: A person can make a career change, however keeping a skill at 9 requires constant practice. If they change careers, as soon as the new skill hits 7, the old skill drops to 6. They do not get the points back. Within an single skill, they can have multiple skills up to 9. For example Ranged Weapon-pistol/9 and Ranged Weapon-rifle/9. Practice with one is somewhat transferable to the other. (Another idea is that they can be above 6 in related skills, but still no more than 3 above, so the maximum would be pistol/8 and rifle/7.) I don't think it's been covered, but suppose you have Ranged Weapon-pistol/9. The usual default for Ranged Weapon is -2, so a rifle would be at Precision - 2--probably way too low. I tossed around some rules for this, but then I came across things like knowing Language-French/6 being useless in trying to do or learn Language-Chinese. I've come to: "The GM should consider not applying default skill penalties when the character knows a closely related skill, especially at a high level. For example, if the PC knows Ranged Weapon-pistol/6, he might waive the -2 default if the PC tries to use a rifle. The GM should also consider whether knowledge of one specialty would give a head start to study of a related specialty. For example, in the previous example, the GM might rule that the first point spent to learn Ranged Weapon-rifle would confer Ranged Weapon- rifle/3 due to expertise applicable from Ranged Weapon-pistol/6." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 22:39:39 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Lilith's Potence On Tue, 9 Sep 1997 14:09:33 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >Perception 12 is auto-success, but you have to roll anyway, both >to get the check digit, and find out if you get 111. If you get >111, you don't succeed, and something *NASTY* happens. Sure, but that's under 0.5% >>I would argue the Need is so obvious--either >>the person is screaming to get out or has fainted--she's got to be at +2 >>for Very Easy > >No -- looking for a specific Need is at -2, if it's obvious. Unless >something happens during Editing, this is going to be canon. It may >be obvious, but you have to find the strands of the need in the >Symphony before you can knot them into a geas. Well, I can see you have access to some expanded Lilim rules, but by the basic book, if a Lilim comes up to someone dying from heat in a steam cabinet, I'll give her the +2 "Very Easy" to sense any need--chances are that the one I'll give her is, "Get be out of the cabinet," but that's a GM choice--it might be, "Let me just die here--life is too hard;" but I think you'll agree that would be a rare result. Still, a Will 12 Lilim will get a 5 or 6 Geas. >And the level of the Geas is still the check digit -- if somebody >thinks that getting saved from a deathtrap is a Geas/1, that's >all you get. Tough. Some Needs-strands are easier to tie knots >in than others. Um, While the Discord and Lilim sections are frequently in conflict, I thought the Geas level was the difficulty of the victim accomplishing the task, not how much they really wanted to accomplish it--they just have to Need it. >>and she can get the resonance +2 for physically touching, >>which she'll have to do, to open the eyes of a fainted victim. > >Now *there*, I'll say it won't work -- you can't sense the Needs >of an unconscious person!! So, she slaps him awake, or gives him a touch of healing. I think the point is still valid that she can get big plusses, guaranteeing a big Geas. >If your "can't fulfill a Need they created themselves" were in effect, >then no Lilim of Lust could get a Geas for going to bed with someone! >And *that's* just plain wrong. I've said this before about Andre, but the Need for sex is there, the Lilim doesn't create it, she just uses it. That's a big difference. We're talking about Lilim creating Needs to fulfull for Geases. >>Besides, it just makes Lilim too powerful, as I think the >>steam cabinet example shows. And what if the Geas/6 applied is, "Come for a >>daily steam bath"? I wouldn't allow such circular Geases-to-create-more- >>Geases, but it's not canonically illegal AFAIK. > >Hm. Cool Stupid Lilim Trick. I'll remember it. Of course, the other >side of this is that even a Will 1 human with a Geas/6 on him can always >get a Divine Intervention on *his* part, and maybe even slip the Geas >if he spends Essence... (I'd sure spend Essence to resist going someplace >that nearly killed me!) The divine Intervention is so rare as to not matter to the game balance. Even a human with a Will of 4 and 2 essence (better than par for the d6-4 suggested under the Impudite section) less the Geas level, isn't going to slip the Geas/5 or /6 barring Intervention. And any Impudite who doesn't have Will 12 or Celestial Charm or lots of essence to spend, deserves what she gets. >So, let's see, somebody obscene like K.K. with a 12 Perception and >a steam bath. (Sounds like something she'd do, y'know?) She has to >roll to get a Need -- say that she spends a couple Essence to >boost her Perception up to 12 again. Chance of Failure: low, but >there's that 111 possibility. > >Then she inflicts a Geas on someone. He rolls Will minus Geas-level, >and may spend Essence. If he wins, she not only loses the Geas, but >gets dissonance. Owch. > >So, with two chances to fail, and a Geas-level that might just be >Geas/1... I don't think it's that powerful. You're ignoring the +2 touch and the +2 easy task. Even if you discard the +2 easy task, that's still a Geas 3+, enough to make a mortal very unlikely make his Will roll. >>Sure, so the Lilim says oops, sorry, and talks her way out of it, teleports >>away, or just descends to Hell. Annoying, but no big deal. > >You have a lower opinion of Superiors than I do. "Uh, BYE!" celestial to descend> "Not so fast." get painful from there, and a lot of Geases go poof.> A Superior >is *not* going to get "talked out of it," and with a Divine Intervention... >Okay, teleport. And then there's the +20 disturbance of a Superior >in corporeal form, right behind you. "I was talking to you..." Ok, so *if* she catches an Intervention she's in some trouble, and maybe he makes her poof her Geases for her life (possible? Can Geases be destroyed by a common Lilim?). But Interventions are moby unlikely! >DI shows up with someone doing something like this, it should be >*spectacular* (if she's making the GM's life that miserable, then >obviously God is annoyed, right?). If she gets away alive at all, >she's probably owing a decade or two to the Superior she ticked off... So, she opens up the steam bath again, gets another 50 Geas/6's, 20 for the Superior's tasks and 30 for herself. :) >>The Need for sex was already there. She didn't create it. > >But she created the Need for sex with *her*. No sale. He needed sex with someone; she was convenient. >>If she walked by a gay man or a straight woman, she wouldn't get it. > >Multiple vessels, so useful... ;-) :) >>Also, unless the Lilim >>rapes him--which is unlikely to be a Need of his--he can just say, "No, >>you're very beautiful, but I have a wife or lover already." > >This is what Seduction/6 is for. "But you know you want to. Just once, >it won't matter... I'll show you such a good time..." She's >also unlikely to get a *need* for sex with her! She might, on the >other hand, get a Need for "sex with my girlfriend"... Now, would it >count if she used the Song of Form to get that one...? (GM call, >based on circumstances, I'd say.) Sure, a Lilim can make it happen, but it isn't going to be a Geas/6, and she isn't really going to be able to run an assembly line. She has to work to make it happen. I'm objecting to capabilities that let Lilim create Ges factories that give them a virtually unlimited number of Geases. >The steam bath would probably get Lilith less likely to be nice with >them. Doing it on a regular basis might well get a girl in trouble with >her sisters as well. Game Mechanics aren't the *only* forms of control >on egregious Stupid Demon/Angel Tricks. True, but I just don't think letting Lilim entrap their victims is a good idea. It's just too easy to abuse. They already have it easy enough: Consider a Lilim who opens a "Free" alternative healing clinic. She senses the Needs of people who come--touching them for +2 and probably very easy (+2) because they tell her what their doctor says is wrong. Assuming they get the expected cure- sickness Need and they actually are sick, the Lilim spends an essence for Corporeal Healing, and cures them, collecting a Geas/5 or /6. Maybe 20 Geases a day, with the victims relatively happy about the trade. Even if she hits an AA Intervention, he won't be that ticked at her. She just wouldn't want to run into Saminga. Maybe a Lilim should only be able to hold one Geas per Force. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:31:15 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Geas Entrapment (Re: IN> Lilith's Potence) At 10:39 PM +0000 9/9/97, Walt Mazur wrote: >On Tue, 9 Sep 1997 14:09:33 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy >wrote: > >>Perception 12 is auto-success, but you have to roll anyway, both >>to get the check digit, and find out if you get 111. If you get >>111, you don't succeed, and something *NASTY* happens. > >Sure, but that's under 0.5% Depends on one's dice. So make it *worth* that low probability. >>>I would argue the Need is so obvious--[...]--she's got to be at +2 >>>for Very Easy >> >>No -- looking for a specific Need is at -2, if it's obvious. Unless >>something happens during Editing, this is going to be canon. It may >>be obvious, but you have to find the strands of the need in the >>Symphony before you can knot them into a geas. > >Well, I can see you have access to some expanded Lilim rules, but by the >basic book, if a Lilim comes up to someone dying from heat in a steam >cabinet, I'll give her the +2 "Very Easy" to sense any need--chances are >that the one I'll give her is, "Get be out of the cabinet," but that's a GM >choice--it might be, "Let me just die here--life is too hard;" but I think >you'll agree that would be a rare result. Still, a Will 12 Lilim will get a >5 or 6 Geas. (Until the expanded Lilim rules are published.) >>And the level of the Geas is still the check digit -- if somebody >>thinks that getting saved from a deathtrap is a Geas/1, that's >>all you get. Tough. Some Needs-strands are easier to tie knots >>in than others. > >Um, While the Discord and Lilim sections are frequently in conflict, I >thought the Geas level was the difficulty of the victim accomplishing the >task, not how much they really wanted to accomplish it--they just have to >Need it. I think that if you're looking for something specific, the CD needs to be random -- maybe you don't know that somebody else was about to let the guy out, but the Symphony did, so he'd only have stayed in there an hour. Otherwise, it would probably have to be a negative modifier equal to the Geas you're looking for... >>Now *there*, I'll say it won't work -- you can't sense the Needs >>of an unconscious person!! > >So, she slaps him awake, or gives him a touch of healing. I think the point >is still valid that she can get big plusses, guaranteeing a big Geas. Or several smaller ones, if the GM rules there *isn't* a Geas/6 -- especially a Geas/6 for what she wants. (And if the Healing was what he needed, then she just satisfied it in a way that didn't get her the Geas...) >>If your "can't fulfill a Need they created themselves" were in effect, >>then no Lilim of Lust could get a Geas for going to bed with someone! >>And *that's* just plain wrong. > >I've said this before about Andre, but the Need for sex is there, the Lilim >doesn't create it, she just uses it. That's a big difference. We're talking >about Lilim creating Needs to fulfull for Geases. Yeah, but it's not Sex, it's "Sex with this here Lilim" that will most often be found. If it's just Sex, that's a lower Geas, I'd say -- easier to fulfill. >>>Besides, it just makes Lilim too powerful, as I think the >>>steam cabinet example shows. And what if the Geas/6 applied is, "Come for a >>>daily steam bath"? I wouldn't allow such circular Geases-to-create-more- >>>Geases, but it's not canonically illegal AFAIK. >> >>Hm. Cool Stupid Lilim Trick. I'll remember it. Of course, the other >>side of this is that even a Will 1 human with a Geas/6 on him can always >>get a Divine Intervention on *his* part, and maybe even slip the Geas >>if he spends Essence... (I'd sure spend Essence to resist going someplace >>that nearly killed me!) > >The divine Intervention is so rare as to not matter to the game balance. I dunno -- got three of them in one game. (And a 666.) >Even a human with a Will of 4 and 2 essence (better than par for the d6-4 >suggested under the Impudite section) less the Geas level, isn't going to >slip the Geas/5 or /6 barring Intervention. True. But if you're doing it fifty times a day, then the GM summons up some kind of random thing for Will & Essence determination: eventually, you get the Will 8, Essence 5 mortal, and the Lilim goes owchies. That's the main thing -- when you're doing something like this, on the scale required to be obnoxious, you're playing with the laws of averages, and they'll eventually catch up with you in a big way. Yeah, a lucky Lilim will get away with it for a good long time. But *that's* probably going to be the exception as well. >And any [Lilim] who doesn't have Will 12 (Will doesn't have anything to do with whether the Geas will stick or not, currently. I could see the Habbalite change lapping over so that it's Perception to see a Need and Will to impose a Geas, but so far that's not canon.) >or Celestial Charm or lots of essence to spend, deserves what she gets. Though all of that makes noise. Now maybe you can do that routinely in a demon-owned town, but as both a player and a GM, I expect an angel to show up eventually if one's making noise. (Yes, as a player of a Renegade, I expect hostile celestials to show up if my character makes noise routinely. That's why she's such a quiet little Renegade.) >>boost her Perception up to 12 again. Chance of Failure: low, but >>there's that 111 possibility. >>Then she inflicts a Geas on someone. He rolls Will minus Geas-level, >>and may spend Essence. If he wins, she not only loses the Geas, but >>gets dissonance. Owch. >>So, with two chances to fail, and a Geas-level that might just be >>Geas/1... I don't think it's that powerful. > >You're ignoring the +2 touch and the +2 easy task. Even if you discard the >+2 easy task, that's still a Geas 3+, enough to make a mortal very unlikely >make his Will roll. If she's touching him -- in which case, he's already been released from the steam bath thing. (For that example. There are probably other ones for that.) Yes, the mortal can be unlikely to make it if the Geas is big. But eventually, there's the Interventions, and by that time, the annoying person will probably be about to get informed that God (the GM) is *really* sick of this trick. (Which I don't think is that awful a scam, actually. It sounds like something that angels should be tracking down...) [Superior shows up on 111] >Ok, so *if* she catches an Intervention she's in some trouble, and maybe he >makes her poof her Geases for her life (possible? Can Geases be destroyed >by a common Lilim?). (Her own Geases, yes. She can terminate a Geas she laid at any time. Or he can just destroy her. That makes the Geasa go poof too.) And what's this "some trouble"? "Let's see -- either you die, or you're going to turn double agent for me. Short life expectancy there? That's your problem." >But Interventions are moby unlikely! I don't think they're too unlikely for this little thing to be a "short term" kind of scam. When it blows up, it blows up in a big way. >>DI shows up with someone doing something like this, it should be >>*spectacular* (if she's making the GM's life that miserable, then >>obviously God is annoyed, right?). If she gets away alive at all, >>she's probably owing a decade or two to the Superior she ticked off... > >So, she opens up the steam bath again, gets another 50 Geas/6's, 20 for the >Superior's tasks and 30 for herself. :) That's not necessarily how it works -- especially if one of the Geases is "Quit this scam of yours -- except on selected Hellsworn targets." Once a 111 shows up, the GM is restrained only by his mercy. >>>The Need for sex was already there. She didn't create it. >> >>But she created the Need for sex with *her*. > >No sale. He needed sex with someone; she was convenient. If that's the Need! It could be "sex, with *anyone*," it could be "sex with my beloved, who's in Europe," or it could be "sex with that cutie over there." (And sometimes it's "Sex, with that *other* cutie over there." Ticked off my Renegade no end...) >>>Also, unless the Lilim >>>rapes him--which is unlikely to be a Need of his--he can just say, "No, >>>you're very beautiful, but I have a wife or lover already." >> >>This is what Seduction/6 is for. "But you know you want to. Just once, >>it won't matter... I'll show you such a good time..." She's >>also unlikely to get a *need* for sex with her! She might, on the >>other hand, get a Need for "sex with my girlfriend"... Now, would it >>count if she used the Song of Form to get that one...? (GM call, >>based on circumstances, I'd say.) > >Sure, a Lilim can make it happen, but it isn't going to be a Geas/6, and >she isn't really going to be able to run an assembly line. You don't know those Lilim of Lust... No, it's not going to be a one-time Geas/6, but if it only takes 6 hours or 6 days... >She has to work to make it happen. I'm objecting to capabilities >that let Lilim create Geas factories that give them a virtually >unlimited number of Geases. So you object to brothels of Lust? (What if somebody else goes around doing Dark Desire for the Lilim of the establishment... The Lilim gets that Need, teases the poor fellow for a while, then satisfies it. With celestial endurance, she could probably manage 12 of these a day, or more if she skipped the teasing. She might even be just a hired Lilim, and not even know that there's an attunement involved (though she'll surely guess). ) >>The steam bath would probably get Lilith less likely to be nice with >>them. Doing it on a regular basis might well get a girl in trouble with >>her sisters as well. Game Mechanics aren't the *only* forms of control >>on egregious Stupid Demon/Angel Tricks. > >True, but I just don't think letting Lilim entrap their victims is a good >idea. It's just too easy to abuse. I don't think so, entirely. Setting up a good entrapment (especially one that won't backfire on her messily if she gets bad luck) takes brains. Brains are what they're supposed to be good at. If it's a serious entrapment, and she's a Free Daughter, then the GM would probably be within his rights to say that the rest of her Band are starting to think she's a pervert. >They already have it easy enough: Consider a Lilim who opens a "Free" >alternative healing clinic. She senses the Needs of people who >come--touching them for +2 and probably very easy (+2) because they tell >her what their doctor says is wrong. The "very easy" thing is *not* going to be canon. No way, no how. Mucking with the Symphony with resonance or whatever should *never* get the "very easy" modifiers, unless you're in a celestial realm or something. The +2 for touching is probably what *makes* it "easier," so no getting the same bonus twice. >Assuming they get the expected cure- >sickness Need and they actually are sick, the Lilim spends an essence for >Corporeal Healing, and cures them, collecting a Geas/5 or /6. Maybe 20 >Geases a day, with the victims relatively happy about the trade. Even if >she hits an AA Intervention, he won't be that ticked at her. She just >wouldn't want to run into Saminga. And Asmodeus might look at her dubiously... (And she's going to be making noise with Corp Healing. If the Malakite of the Sword drops in, we're not going to get lots of logic chopping about whether she's evil or not -- we're going to get lots of the Malakite chopping at the Lilim while she runs away at speed.) >Maybe a Lilim should only be able to hold one Geas per Force. I think that's rather an over-reaction. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #332 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.