From owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Wed Sep 10 12:21:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA25719 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:21:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id LAA20160 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:57:52 -0500 Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:57:52 -0500 Message-Id: <199709101657.LAA20160@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #333 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@LISTS.IO.COM Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, September 10 1997 Volume 01 : Number 333 In this digest: Re: Geas Entrapment (Re: IN> Lilith's Potence) Re: Geas Entrapment (Re: IN> Lilith's Potence) IN> 6+ Skills (the human "Gift") IN> Dissonance, Discord, and Falling Re: IN> 6+ Skills (the human "Gift") Re: IN> Eli is more than he appears Re: IN> Eli is more than he appears IN> The Four Horsemen and the Word of Pollution (was ghosts) IN> Homosexuality in In Nomine Re: IN> Eli is more than he appears Re: IN> Dissonance, Discord, and Falling IN> Coming Soon... Re: IN> The Four Horsemen and the Word of Pollution Re: IN> Eli is more than he appears Re: IN> Homosexuality in In Nomine Re: IN> Homosexuality in In Nomine Re: IN> Homosexuality in In Nomine Re: IN> Eli is more than he appears Re: IN> Homosexuality in In Nomine Re: IN> The Four Horsemen and the Word of Pollution (was ghosts) Re: IN> Lilim Trackers Re: IN> Night Music: "...a skill known at Level 6 or better..." Re: IN> Homosexuality in In Nomine Re: Geas Entrapment (Re: IN> Lilith's Potence) Re: Geas Entrapment (Re: IN> Lilith's Potence) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 05:33:53 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: Geas Entrapment (Re: IN> Lilith's Potence) On Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:31:15 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >>Sure, but that's under 0.5% > >Depends on one's dice. So make it *worth* >that low probability. Don't use those pointy D&D dice; use the boxy ones with the dots on them! >(Until the expanded Lilim rules are published.) Can you say when and where? > I think that if you're looking for something specific, the >CD needs to be random -- maybe you don't know that somebody else >was about to let the guy out, but the Symphony did, so he'd only >have stayed in there an hour. Otherwise, it would probably have >to be a negative modifier equal to the Geas you're looking for... > I was thinking of a case where the Lilim essentially has the victim trapped, ensuring no alternate Need-filler. >>So, she slaps him awake, or gives him a touch of healing. I think the point >>is still valid that she can get big plusses, guaranteeing a big Geas. > >Or several smaller ones, if the GM rules there *isn't* a Geas/6 -- >especially a Geas/6 for what she wants. (And if the Healing was >what he needed, then she just satisfied it in a way that didn't get >her the Geas...) So, the smart Lilim will have the room bugged, and only go in once the victim is screaming in pain. >Yeah, but it's not Sex, it's "Sex with this here Lilim" that will most >often be found. If it's just Sex, that's a lower Geas, I'd say -- >easier to fulfill. Since the Lilim of Lust is willing, it's obviously the easiest Need to satisfy: The Lilim is willing and available. Geas/1 or /2 if he Needs that much. :) >>The divine Intervention is so rare as to not matter to the game balance. > >I dunno -- got three of them in one game. (And a 666.) I keep telling you, it's those pointy dice you're using! >True. But if you're doing it fifty times a day, then the GM summons >up some kind of random thing for Will & Essence determination: eventually, >you get the Will 8, Essence 5 mortal, and the Lilim goes owchies. > >That's the main thing -- when you're doing something like this, on >the scale required to be obnoxious, you're playing with the laws of >averages, and they'll eventually catch up with you in a big way. >Yeah, a lucky Lilim will get away with it for a good long time. >But *that's* probably going to be the exception as well. Yeah, I GM shouldn't let a player get away with a Geas factory, but it's easier for the GMs if the rules don't seem to bless such abuses. >>And any [Lilim] who doesn't have Will 12 > >(Will doesn't have anything to do with whether the Geas will stick or >not, currently. I could see the Habbalite change lapping over >so that it's Perception to see a Need and Will to impose a Geas, >but so far that's not canon.) You're right--too much email. I wish the Superiors would get off their rears and bless that. It seems like a slam dunk to me. >>or Celestial Charm or lots of essence to spend, deserves what she gets. > >Though all of that makes noise. Now maybe you can do that routinely >in a demon-owned town, but as both a player and a GM, I expect >an angel to show up eventually if one's making noise. (Yes, as a >player of a Renegade, I expect hostile celestials to show up if >my character makes noise routinely. That's why she's such a quiet >little Renegade.) Well, as long as you make a little noise at a time, it's not that hard to secure an area to make sure it's impossible for the disturbance to be heard. >>You're ignoring the +2 touch and the +2 easy task. Even if you discard the >>+2 easy task, that's still a Geas 3+, enough to make a mortal very unlikely >>make his Will roll. > >If she's touching him -- in which case, he's already been released from >the steam bath thing. I was thinking of the old-style cabinets where your head sticks out, not a sauna or a walk in steam bath. Maybe I've been watching too many Agatha Christie mysteries set in the '20s and '30s. > (For that example. There are probably other ones >for that.) Yes, the mortal can be unlikely to make it if the Geas is big. >But eventually, there's the Interventions, and by that time, the annoying >person will probably be about to get informed that God (the GM) is >*really* sick of this trick. True. But then the player will complain to the GM that the rules allow it. >(Which I don't think is that awful a scam, actually. It sounds like >something that angels should be tracking down...) Hard to detect it's going on until the Lilim has a *lot* of Geases activated. >[Superior shows up on 111] >>Ok, so *if* she catches an Intervention she's in some trouble, and maybe he >>makes her poof her Geases for her life (possible? Can Geases be destroyed >>by a common Lilim?). > >(Her own Geases, yes. She can terminate a Geas she laid at any time. >Or he can just destroy her. That makes the Geasa go poof too.) Maybe she gives them to Lilith for safe-keeping--Lilith charging interest, of course. "Honest Mr. AA, I'd love to terminate those 50 Geas/6's for you, but Lilith has them all! I can get back some for you, but none if you kill me. I'll Geas myself to release some if you let me go. Did you have any particular ones in mind?" (Might as well gain some information while we're at it!) >And what's this "some trouble"? "Let's see -- either you die, or >you're going to turn double agent for me. Short life expectancy there? >That's your problem." See above. >>But Interventions are moby unlikely! > >I don't think they're too unlikely for this little thing to be a >"short term" kind of scam. When it blows up, it blows up in a big way. Repeat after me: Don't use the pointy dice; don't use the pointy dice... >>So, she opens up the steam bath again, gets another 50 Geas/6's, 20 for the >>Superior's tasks and 30 for herself. :) > >That's not necessarily how it works -- especially if one of the >Geases is "Quit this scam of yours -- except on selected Hellsworn >targets." Once a 111 shows up, the GM is restrained only by his mercy. True. See the Bank of Lilith, above. :) Still, it's only about a 20% chance of divine intervention in 50 d666 rolls. >If that's the Need! It could be "sex, with *anyone*," it could be >"sex with my beloved, who's in Europe," or it could be "sex with that >cutie over there." (And sometimes it's "Sex, with that *other* >cutie over there." Ticked off my Renegade no end...) True. Still, the Lilim is offering, not entrapping. >>Sure, a Lilim can make it happen, but it isn't going to be a Geas/6, and >>she isn't really going to be able to run an assembly line. > >You don't know those Lilim of Lust... No, it's not going to be a >one-time Geas/6, but if it only takes 6 hours or 6 days... That still represents a significant investment of time by the Lilim and the consent of the victim. The problem with the Geas factory is that it takes little time and no real consent of the victim. >>She has to work to make it happen. I'm objecting to capabilities >>that let Lilim create Geas factories that give them a virtually >>unlimited number of Geases. > >So you object to brothels of Lust? Consent. >(What if somebody else goes around doing Dark Desire for the Lilim >of the establishment... The Lilim gets that Need, teases the poor >fellow for a while, then satisfies it. With celestial endurance, >she could probably manage 12 of these a day, or more if she skipped >the teasing. She might even be just a hired Lilim, and not even know >that there's an attunement involved (though she'll surely guess). ) I don't think I'd allow it. That's not the victim's Need, it's the Need of the person inflicting Dark Desire implanted in the victim. She might get a Geas on the DD user. :) I like that! >>True, but I just don't think letting Lilim entrap their victims is a good >>idea. It's just too easy to abuse. > >I don't think so, entirely. Setting up a good entrapment (especially >one that won't backfire on her messily if she gets bad luck) takes >brains. Brains are what they're supposed to be good at. If it's enough work, I might agree with you. But let's suppose a Lilim of Belial does some piddliing Geas/1 favor for Bill Gates. She Geases him to write her a check for a billion dollars, a trivial amount for BG, and remember that he gets hit hourly if he doesn't do it. Now that she has all that money, she starts burning down the homes of people she wants Geases on. Most people don't have the insurance or cash to get their homes rebuilt quickly, but she does. >If it's a serious entrapment, and she's a Free Daughter, then the >GM would probably be within his rights to say that the rest of her >Band are starting to think she's a pervert. Sure. >>They already have it easy enough: Consider a Lilim who opens a "Free" >>alternative healing clinic. She senses the Needs of people who >>come--touching them for +2 and probably very easy (+2) because they tell >>her what their doctor says is wrong. > >The "very easy" thing is *not* going to be canon. No way, no how. >Mucking with the Symphony with resonance or whatever should *never* >get the "very easy" modifiers, unless you're in a celestial realm or >something. The +2 for touching is probably what *makes* it "easier," >so no getting the same bonus twice. I think the easy is that she was told what the problem is. The resonance advantage is by touching. But ok, so out of 6 chances, she'll get Geas/3, /4, /5, /6, /6, /6. (Unless they're going to canonize Geases over /6.) Cool: average Geas/5. >>she hits an AA Intervention, he won't be that ticked at her. She just >>wouldn't want to run into Saminga. > > And Asmodeus might look at her dubiously... (And she's going >to be making noise with Corp Healing. If the Malakite of the Sword >drops in, we're not going to get lots of logic chopping about whether >she's evil or not -- we're going to get lots of the Malakite chopping >at the Lilim while she runs away at speed.) Corp Healing is only 1 essence, IIRC. And how is it she's Evil if she's curing people? She'd only be Evil if she used the Geases for something Evil. >>Maybe a Lilim should only be able to hold one Geas per Force. > >I think that's rather an over-reaction. I don't know. 7-9 Geases. Isn't that enough for a campaign? It seems to me a Lilith should be going after Geases for a specific reason, not shotgunning dozens of Geases. Other bands and choruses have similar limitations on their powers. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 22:55:01 -0700 From: zingaro@peak.org Subject: Re: Geas Entrapment (Re: IN> Lilith's Potence) > >(Until the expanded Lilim rules are published.) > Can you say when and where? Oh no. Is SJG gonna do the TSR/White Wolf thing and put out seventy-two choir books, and Expanded Servitor foldouts and cetera? - ------- zingaro@peak.org Note how they do not so much fly as plummet. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 01:46:09 -0400 From: Stacy Stroud Subject: IN> 6+ Skills (the human "Gift") Karakash cleverly suggested: >Humans are allowed to have ONE skill above six. This >represents their greatest gift and is partly because of their >close ties to the Symphony. I *love* this. It fits In Nomine just right, and explains how humans can actually manage to accomplish things. I suppose the "Gift" skill should probably be tied somehow to the human's destiny? (I figure one's highest potential in the Symphony probably has something to do with one's greatest gift *from* the Symphony. Makes sense, eh?) If you're looking for support from the peanut gallery, this idea gets mine. Canonize it! Stacy Stroud sstroud@uky.campus.mci.net Stacy Stroud sstroud@uky.campus.mci.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 01:47:12 -0400 From: Stacy Stroud Subject: IN> Dissonance, Discord, and Falling The subject is Malakim taking dissonance deliberately in order to let a demon live while the Malakite leads it back toward the Light. Quoth the lovely ArchBeth: >And a Malakite can also get away with it because Malakim don't Fall -- >the worst that could happen is he'd get a lot of Discord. And if the >demon *did* get Redeemed, it might be worth it! Hmm. Can't *every* angel pull this trick, though? Anyone can trade 3 notes of dissonance for Discord, right? And since the dissonance roll is made *before* the new note of dissonance is added each time, an angel can accumulate 3 notes of dissonance without ever being in danger of Casting Out, much less Falling. First screwup: Roll 1+ on any of 3 dice (can't fail). Gain 1st note of dissonance. Second screwup: Roll 1+ on any of 3 dice (can't fail). Gain 2nd note. Third screwup: Roll 2+ on any of 3 dice (can't fail due to 111 rule). Gain 3rd note. Trade all 3 notes in for 1 level of Discord. Dissonance meter resets. Repeat as needed, until you're a crippled emotionally-disordered psychopath, or until your Archangel puts you out of your (and his/her) misery, whichever comes first. This means that Falling (or at least, exposing oneself to the risk of Falling) almost has to be voluntary . . . which I rather like. Indeed, I seem to remember that an older draft of the game explicitly required the GM to warn a player when the PC was about to perform an action that could lead to its Fall -- and the player could then either take back the action, or else *deliberately* "push God's grace out of the PC's being" and go forward with the action. This goes along with Peter's recent opinion that angels should *know* what their Superiors will and will not forgive. Likewise, angels *know* when they're about to Fall, and must acquiesce (at least by refusing to take precautions) in order for their downfall to be complete. Hell is for the rebellious, not the merely unlucky. Of course, Discord is nasty enough, and is not well-regarded by most other angels. But we're already postulating, in the situation described previously, that the angel in question has gotten its self-sacrifice OKed by Dominic, and presumably its own Superior as well. And if a *Malakite* can do that, surely any other angel could. Stacy Stroud sstroud@uky.campus.mci.net Stacy Stroud sstroud@uky.campus.mci.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 00:20:59 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> 6+ Skills (the human "Gift") > I suppose the "Gift" skill should probably be tied somehow to the human's > destiny? (I figure one's highest potential in the Symphony probably has Or Fate... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:41:49 +0100 From: "cd skogsberg" Subject: Re: IN> Eli is more than he appears Shadowcat wrote: > On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Casca wrote: > > > Well, if they knew he was God in disguise, it would sorta defeat the > > purpose of having a disguise..... > > The king walking among his people in peasants garb? Or Wotan/Odinn/Oden wearing a grey cloak and slouch hat and visiting various people. (IIRC there are 'legends' (i.e. I don't know if it's true or a folk tale) that a Swedish king was known as 'greycloak' because he did this; Charles XII.) cd Tossing in my $250 or so (inflation, dontcherknow). - -- Don't try to eff the ineffable. cd skogsberg cd@alfakonsult.se | d97skog@dtek.chalmers.se ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 04:45:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Davidson Subject: Re: IN> Eli is more than he appears On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Emily K. Dresner wrote: > > I might sound more then a bit insane, since it's been one of those days. > So excuse my aimless ramblings. > [much snipped] Your ideas are sick and twisted. I LOVE THEM! :) Your thoughts would make any sadistic GM smile with glee. Pop this on your players and watch them squirm! > > Fun with Malakim! Do not taunt happy fun Malakim! > Have you been playing in Grandma's medicine cabinet again? :) Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us MUSIC: Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones, Rush, Jimi Hendrix GAMES: Champions (old and new), In Nomine, Nephilim TV: The X-Files, the Simpsons, Superman, The Tick, the Animaniacs OTHER: Religion, Philosophy, mysticism, the runes, the Tarot, writing. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:36:37 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> The Four Horsemen and the Word of Pollution (was ghosts) In Gaiman and Pratchett's "Good Omens," Pollution is one of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, having replaced Pestilence, who retired, exhausted, after the introduction of antibiotics. Perhaps one could run a variation on that and have a Demon Prince of Pestilence, who is one of the Four Horsement, and who has a Word-bound servitor for Pollution. The other three Horsemen are, traditionally: War (Belial?) Famine (Haagenti?) Death (Saminga) Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:24:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Kim Foster Subject: IN> Homosexuality in In Nomine I hope this hasn't been done to death on the list before I joined. But I was wondering what people's opinions were on the "status" ( I guess that would be the word) of homosexuality and homosexuals in the In Nomine universe. Is it a great sin among the angelic side, accepted, just not considered important? This comes up as a player in my game wants to play a Soilder that happens to be a homosexual. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:35:50 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> Eli is more than he appears > >>Conclusion: Eli is Jesus > > >No, Eli is Yahweh's Vessel which he uses to communicate with the Arch > >Angels much like the Angels use vessels to talk to humans. > > But wasn't Jesus Yahweh's Vessel for communicating with humans? In Anne Rice's "Mnemoch, The Devil", Jesus is God's vessel, for him to learn how humans do live, in flesh and blood. And, guys (and gals): Eli is AA of CREATION. Doesn't ring any bell?? Andre ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:27:50 -0400 (EDT) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> Dissonance, Discord, and Falling > Repeat as needed, until you're a crippled emotionally-disordered > psychopath, or until your Archangel puts you out of your (and his/her) > misery, whichever comes first. > > This means that Falling (or at least, exposing oneself to the risk of > Falling) almost has to be voluntary . . . which I rather like. Indeed, I > seem to remember that an older draft of the game explicitly required the GM > to warn a player when the PC was about to perform an action that could lead > to its Fall -- and the player could then either take back the action, or > else *deliberately* "push God's grace out of the PC's being" and go forward > with the action. This goes along with Peter's recent opinion that angels > should *know* what their Superiors will and will not forgive. Likewise, > angels *know* when they're about to Fall, and must acquiesce (at least by > refusing to take precautions) in order for their downfall to be complete. > Hell is for the rebellious, not the merely unlucky. No, Hell is for the Selfish. At least in my game. You can, theoretically, rebell for selfless reasons. (Which starts to make Lilith and her Daughters very weird. I mean, not just Bright. The Word of Freedom means there must be an initial rebellion for the good of yourself, your children, and future generations. Something new to contemplate, which I will now go off and do.) This is more or less the model that I am using, since I am slowly but surely overhauling the Dissonance system - mostly what it means to be dissonant, how it feels, and to remove some of the silly randomness. (Away with dice!) To become Outcast, that is the choice of others, and the definition of the word "outcast". To Fall, that is the ultimate choice of Yourself. No one makes you Fall. No one forces you to be a Demon, unless you happen to be born down in the Pit - and that's what Redemption is for. It's all a matter, of course, of free choice. Or madness. There's no luck involved. Emily K. Dresner, M.S.Eng. Applications Programmer III and Hand of God Patron Saint of ACI-1 Medical Center Information Technology Desktop Applications Team Phone: (313) 936-3576 Current Quote: I'm not manic-depressive, I'm digital. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:47:01 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: IN> Coming Soon... Elizabeth McCoy wrote: "There is but one God, and Murphy is his prophet," probably... What do you want?? Murphiel, Archangel of Hazard Murphisto, Demon Prince of Hazard Murphy, Habbalah of Fate, the Demon of Things That Go Wrong Baron Murph of Hysteria, Impudite of Dark Humor, the Demon of Murphy's Law :-) Andre ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:06:17 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> The Four Horsemen and the Word of Pollution > Perhaps one could run a variation on that and have a Demon Prince > of Pestilence, who is one of the Four Horsement, and who has > a Word-bound servitor for Pollution. I'm preparing a brief on the Prince of Leprosy (Pestilence) and his brood, for a campaign involving Raphael. In it, Kahnser, Prince of Leprosy, is an old Demon who doesn't see one of his own Barons sneaking on him to conquer the Principality: Baron Sihddar of Plague, the Demon of Aids. I think Pollution once was another Demon of Kahnser, but has grew up to be ready to obtain full Prince status - and now, maybe, he's found his way to the top: helping Sihddar to defeat Kahnser and then getting the Principality *himself*! Things are getting sick and smokey in Leprosy Realm... Andre ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:13:49 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Eli is more than he appears On the issue of Eli or Jesus being "vessels" of God: First of all, might you mean "role" more than vessel? Second, if you are interested, standard Christology would not have it that God was related to the body of Jesus as a celestial is related to its vessel, but rather as a human soul is related to its body. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:09:27 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Homosexuality in In Nomine Among celestials, according to IN, sex happens but is not the major interest it is among humans. And, since the sex, if any, of a vessel is arbitrary, sexual orientation does not apply to celestials. Given the non-denominational portrait of celestials generally, I would suppose homosexuality would be regarded as a sin only by those angels whose archangel is specifically backing a religion that frowns on it. And even then, one can't be sure, since it isn't clear if an archangel backs a religion because they think it true or because they think it expedient. Furthermore, even the young archangels are centuries old, and they have seen human attitudes toward homosexuality fluctuate over time. Even within the monotheistic religions, attitudes may not have been positive, but the degree of negativity fluctuated a lot. For instance, Dante, in the 1300s, puts homosexual lovers on the same ring of Purgatory -- not Hell -- as heterosexual fornicators. They suffer the same purgative pains; they just circle the ring in opposite directions. And that ring is the highest and therefore least grave ring of Purgatory. The worst sin, at the bottom, is Pride, followed, I believe, by Avarice. So, even if your homosexual soldier is working for Laurence, his angelic contacts might sigh and tut-tut, if they take any interest in his personal sins at all, but that might be all. And if he is monogamous or celibate, celestial concern might wane even further. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:20:49 -0400 (EDT) From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Homosexuality in In Nomine From the main rules, Beleth and Blandine, two female-oriented Superiors, were lovers before the Fall. If this doesn't indicate that the game is fairly "open and affirming" I'm not sure what would. Of course, it depends on who the character is a soldier *of*... The way I see it: David, Dominic, Janus, Jean, Jordi, Michael, Gabriel, Marc: no problem Laurence: has a problem (via the Roman Catholic Church) Christopher: not necessesarily a problem (unless the soldier belongs to NAMBLA) Eli: enthusiastic support (if he actually takes a soldier at this point) Blandine, Novalis, Yves: support and encouragement (oh, right, NAMBLA=North American Man/Boy Love Association) Hope this helps, Mark (who performed the wedding ceremony for two Lesbian friends last week) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:36:54 -0500 From: Colin Fredericks Subject: Re: IN> Homosexuality in In Nomine >I hope this hasn't been done to death on the list before I joined. But I was >wondering what people's opinions were on the "status" ( I guess that would >be the word) of homosexuality and homosexuals in the In Nomine universe. Is >it a great sin among the angelic side, accepted, just not considered >important? This comes up as a player in my game wants to play a Soilder that >happens to be a homosexual. Aha. A very interesting point. Here's what I've seen: 1. Blandine and Beleth are noted as being lovers. They are also both referred to as female. 2. Celestials themselves are neither male or female. 3. the Church in the real world has declared "living in sin" to no longer be a sin. This would indicate to me that the Angels don't really care who you love, so long as you love selflessly. Of course, this is my opinion too, so it may not be exactly right. My guess is that a small number of angels see it as a demonic plot. The vast majority would figure that God wouldn't have given people the inclination if He didn't mind it happening, from time to time. 10 points to anyone who can figure out what page those exact words came from. As far as "christian" televangelists talking about how God hates homos, remember one thing: Who put the "tele" in televangelist? >:} I don't think Larry or Dom inspired those guys. Stay Cool; -Sir Colin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:31:57 -0400 (EDT) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> Eli is more than he appears > > >No, Eli is Yahweh's Vessel which he uses to communicate with the Arch > > >Angels much like the Angels use vessels to talk to humans. > > > > But wasn't Jesus Yahweh's Vessel for communicating with humans? > > In Anne Rice's "Mnemoch, The Devil", Jesus is God's vessel, for him to learn > how humans do live, in flesh and blood. And, guys (and gals): Eli is AA of > CREATION. Doesn't ring any bell?? *bing!* Yes, of course it does. How about this take on it: Eli IS Yahweh, or at least the ArchAngel form of him. The vessel he took the last time he decided to go on a hang with humans binge was that of a Jewish Carpenter (Role/6, Status/1) in which he carried through having the role created for him by being born. You get all (Eli is Jesus, God is Eli, God is Jesus) at the same time. Stir, mix, and serve with crackers. I would like to go so far as to push that Moses was one of Eli's vessels. BUT... Isaiah and Ezekiel were NOT, for various reasons. We've all seen how bonkers the ArchAngels get when new Messiahs show up. They're probably still smarting from the first time. Hell, Uriel freaked out. Michael and Gabriel were tried for Heresey. And it's quite clear that none of them have the Whole Picture. As a matter of fact, we can take a dim KULT-y view of all this. God is actually a Man. He created Mankind as we know it in his image, and the Angels to serve Him in binding his creation to the Earth. Some Angels believed in the Freedom and Free Will for Mankind, since they were as Divine as God being created in his Image, but blinded by ignorance, and some were against - those who were FOR the freedom of Man Rebelled against the others, and were cast out of Heaven. God did not stop them, for there needed to be a Hell for souls to inhabit between lives, and tangible evils for there to be a Mankind. And God occasionally goes down to Earth, sometimes to blind Mankind, sometimes to Enlighten them. And who is God? Eli, the Creator. And he's Human. Weird, man. I toyed with this whole concept for a while, especially in just killing off God altogether, but it's still sitting on the back burner. (One of my NPC's, a Lilim, has been known to tell people, "I don't believe in God because I've never met Him. You would think I would have by now.") ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:06:08 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> Homosexuality in In Nomine > David, Dominic, Janus, Jean, Jordi, Michael, Gabriel, Marc: no problem ^^^^^^^ Well, isn't dear ol' Dommie rooting for the One World Religion of Christianity with Larry? If not, I've been _seriously_ misremembering his writeup. That position would indicate a problem to me... Oops da Ogre, how many times has this been brought up already? Four? mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:08:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> The Four Horsemen and the Word of Pollution (was ghosts) On Wed, 10 Sep 1997, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > War (Belial?) Baal would work better, I think. Belial is about random destruction, whereas Baal is about destruction for a specific purpose. Belial started the London fire of 1666; Baal fire-bombed London in WW2. - -- Casca (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:04:28 -0400 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Trackers On Sep 9, 1:44pm, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Trackers > At 11:50 PM -0400 9/8/97, David Edelstein wrote: > >>>>(This from current discussion from the AA's and DP's of In Nomine...)<<< > > > >Hmmph! If I *am* a Prince, my Word is NOT "Disagreeing with Archangel > >Beth". > > > >My talent for disagreement is much broader than that. >:D > > > >-David, a real Prince of a guy > > Okay, everbody! Time to come up with suggestions for > Prince David (not *that* David!) Edelstein! > > Prince of Disagreement? Prince of Devil's Advocate? Prince of Difficult Questions. };) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:17:59 -0400 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Night Music: "...a skill known at Level 6 or better..." > A person can make a career change, however keeping a skill at 9 requires > constant practice. If they change careers, as soon as the new skill hits 7, > the old skill drops to 6. They do not get the points back. I don't like this suggestion, not because it's unreasonable, but because it goes against the 'destiny' spin I was putting on the single skill. Basically, there is _one_ thing that each human being can do remarkably well, if they but look for it and cultivate that skill. > Within an single skill, they can have multiple skills up to 9. For example > Ranged Weapon-pistol/9 and Ranged Weapon-rifle/9. Practice with one is > somewhat transferable to the other. (Another idea is that they can be above > 6 in related skills, but still no more than 3 above, so the maximum would > be pistol/8 and rifle/7.) Not bad, and only moderately unbalancing. > I don't think it's been covered, but suppose you have Ranged > Weapon-pistol/9. The usual default for Ranged Weapon is -2, so a rifle > would be at Precision - 2--probably way too low. I tossed around some rules > for this, but then I came across things like knowing Language-French/6 > being useless in trying to do or learn Language-Chinese. I've come to: > > "The GM should consider not applying default skill penalties when the > character knows a closely related skill, especially at a high level. For > example, if the PC knows Ranged Weapon-pistol/6, he might waive the -2 > default if the PC tries to use a rifle. The GM should also consider whether > knowledge of one specialty would give a head start to study of a related > specialty. For example, in the previous example, the GM might rule that the > first point spent to learn Ranged Weapon-rifle would confer Ranged Weapon- > rifle/3 due to expertise applicable from Ranged Weapon-pistol/6." In the specific case of Languages, I'd let each level that the primary skill goes above 6 to count as one level on _every_ other language they have studied to any degree (up to 6). This should simulate language prodigies quite well. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 19:14:10 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Homosexuality in In Nomine On Wed, 10 Sep 1997 MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: > >From the main rules, Beleth and Blandine, two female-oriented Superiors, were > lovers before the Fall. If this doesn't indicate that the game is fairly > "open and affirming" I'm not sure what would. > > Of course, it depends on who the character is a soldier *of*... > The way I see it: > David, Dominic, Janus, Jean, Jordi, Michael, Gabriel, Marc: no problem I would think that Dominic would have a problem with this because like Laurence he supports the RCC. > (oh, right, NAMBLA=North American Man/Boy Love Association) Which is obviously a product of Andrealphus. > Hope this helps, I liked it. > Mark (who performed the wedding ceremony for two Lesbian friends last week) What faith are you? Shadowcat All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:33:36 -0400 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: Geas Entrapment (Re: IN> Lilith's Potence) [Much excellent discussion snipped...] One of the 'official' pronouncements about In Nomine is that we aren't going to try to plug every little hole, but concentrate on any big, ugly ones and try to make the game self-consistent enough so that the GM can handle most judgement calls. This doesn't mean that problems will be ignored or that I'll stop answering questions (even tricky ones...), but that's the POV that SJG is taking. In this particular matter, if a player is exploiting a loophole in the rules, the GM is free to impose problems of various sorts against the offending players. 1) Intervention will eventually strike. This can have a WIDE range of effects. What if the GM says that, due to the large number of Geases, the Lilim loses most or all of them? Other awful problems are possible... 2) The sheer number of Geases by any such scheme could give the Lilim a 'free' Aura discord until they get down to a reasonable amount. (this one is a LOT of fun... for the GM!) 3) You could limit the total level of geases by a particular Lilim on particular person... up to the Lilim's forces, for example. 4) Lilim might be restricted to the number of total Geases they can hold altogether. Lilim Forces * 5 is not unreasonable. 5) A Lilim with too many Geases might start 'forgetting' some as they pile up. Start by reducing the highest Geases by a level and then work your way down until you have a reasonable number. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:46:33 -0400 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: Geas Entrapment (Re: IN> Lilith's Potence) > If it's enough work, I might agree with you. But let's suppose a Lilim of > Belial does some piddliing Geas/1 favor for Bill Gates. She Geases him to > write her a check for a billion dollars, a trivial amount for BG, and > remember that he gets hit hourly if he doesn't do it. We're working on that Geas/1 time problem right now... =) Besides, you are grossly over-estimating how much money BG has. Even for him, a million dollars is probably not 'trivial'. Besides, the level of the Geas is the difficulty the Geasee would have in fulfilling the request. What can you do for Bill that he can't snap his fingers and have done for him? ;) (This is a good time to use that Sauna trick, btw...) > > And Asmodeus might look at her dubiously... (And she's going > >to be making noise with Corp Healing. If the Malakite of the Sword > >drops in, we're not going to get lots of logic chopping about whether > >she's evil or not -- we're going to get lots of the Malakite chopping > >at the Lilim while she runs away at speed.) > > Corp Healing is only 1 essence, IIRC. And how is it she's Evil if she's > curing people? She'd only be Evil if she used the Geases for something > Evil. Her intentions on getting the Geases are evil (self-serving, at the very least and more likely in service to Hell). > I don't know. 7-9 Geases. Isn't that enough for a campaign? It seems to me > a Lilith should be going after Geases for a specific reason, not > shotgunning dozens of Geases. Other bands and choruses have similar > limitations on their powers. That number seems low to me, as well. I envision Lilim getting a lot of nearly-worthless Geases and occasionally needing to call them in. That network of favors is typically useless most of the time, but when you need someone to come fix your car at three o'clock in the morning... ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #333 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.