From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Sep 11 09:48:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA13202 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 09:48:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id JAA21466 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 09:17:57 -0500 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 09:17:57 -0500 Message-Id: <199709111417.JAA21466@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #335 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, September 11 1997 Volume 01 : Number 335 In this digest: Re: IN> About the four horsemen of the Apocalypse... Sacred Cows (was Re: IN> Homosexuality in In Nomine) IN> Superior Intervention Re: Geas Entrapment (Re: IN> Lilith's Potence) Re: IN> Superior Intervention Re: IN> Superior Intervention IN> Dissonance, Discord, and Falling Re: IN> Re: Another take on Eli IN> [HUMOR] Archangel of Grease (Long) IN> Beth of the Archives Re: IN> Skills higher than 6 Re: IN> [HUMOR] Archangel of Grease (Long) IN> Homosexuality in In Nomine i IN> Eli is more than he appears IN> Really Bad Perception rolls. Re: IN> Night Music: "...a skill known at Level 6 or better..." Re: IN> Night Music: "...a skill known at Level 6 or better..." Re: IN> Yves: Mechanics Re: IN> Homosexuality in In Nomine Re: IN> About the four horsemen of the Apocalypse... Re: IN> [HUMOR] Archangel of Grease (Long) Re: IN> Dissonance, Discord, and Falling ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 20:17:39 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> About the four horsemen of the Apocalypse... > Mark's memory is quite close. From the NIV translation: NIV? > I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard > one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!" > I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, > and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on > conquest. Baal, probably. AKA Conquest. > When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living > creature say, "Come!" Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. > Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to > make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword. Belial, especially given the description of the horse. AKA War. > When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living > creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse! > Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. Then I heard what > sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart > of wheat for a day's wages, [2] and three quarts of barley for a day's > wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!" Huh? I assume that this is Pestilence, but this reference is somewhat obscure... > When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth > living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a pale > horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind > him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, > famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth. Saminga, without a doubt. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com The society which scorns excellence in plumbing as a humble activity and tolerates shoddiness in philosophy because it is an exalted activity will have neither good plumbing nor good philosophy ... neither its pipes nor its theories will hold water." - Fortune Daemon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 02:42:22 +0200 From: Jo Hart Subject: Sacred Cows (was Re: IN> Homosexuality in In Nomine) At 19:44 10/09/97 -0500, you wrote: > >From: Elizabeth McCoy > > >Eli: Would probably rather bi-sexuality, since otherwise the person is > potentially cut off from the joys of creating a new life. But other > than that, hey, be cool. *nod* I was thinking he'd probably be very laid back about it, but really what has homosexual love got to do with creation? (On the other hand, what does vessels having sex got to do with creation either and thats one of his rites...) Whilst I'm being politically incorrect here's another couple of things: Freedom is not a Good (angelic) thing in the IN world - - Other than Lilim (who are the essence of selfishness) and mortals (who cannot hear the symphony, on the whole), angels and demons really don't want to be free (note that although many of the demons rebelled, they didn't rebel for freedom -- even the DPs serve Lucifer and who knows who Lucifer serves? (or if they did then they don't seem too bothered that they didn't get it)). Each one of them was created in harmony with the symphony - -- rebelling means rebelling against themselves and against the symphony itself. It isn't like the American War of Independence! ;-) Demons are in general FAR more likely to claim to love freedom than angels (because they mean freedom from responsibility! They still don't have it though). A 'free' lilim serving lilith is not bright. To be bright, it needs to serve an AA -- and have accepted the concept that 'the only true way to be free is when you are free to choose and choose to serve' -- I think this may be the last stage in any lilim becoming bright and most of them are too wrapped up in inner selfishness to be able to take that last step. Some books deserve to be burned in the IN world - - Books are a form of media. There are some books out there which WILL guide readers towards hell, that is their sole purpose (and some which will guide readers towards heaven as well). Even the most devoutly pro-paper follower of Yves will acknowlege that some texts should not be available to mortals -- their sole purpose is to drag souls into hell. Followers of Dominic are quite right when they want them burned (of course the inquisition gets a bit over-enthusiastic but lets be honest, which is more important -- a book or a soul? In the IN world, this is something you literally have to weigh up. The price of keeping a demonic book out there on the shelves is that it WILL lead people to their fate.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 22:59:51 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Superior Intervention >>>Belial started the London fire of 1666; Baal fire-bombed London in WW2.<<< One thing to be very wary of in In Nomine is blaming celestials for everything that happens in the world. That way lies the World of Darkness.... *Humans* started the London fire of 1666, and fire-bombed London in WW2. Belial and Baal probably had minions there, fanning the flames, but if Demon Princes and Archangels are personally engineering every major disaster and/or miracle in history, the whole idea of the War becomes pointless. - -David (just felt a need to go off on a tangent, we now return you to your regular thread...) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 03:43:30 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: Geas Entrapment (Re: IN> Lilith's Potence) On Wed, 10 Sep 1997 16:50:51 -0400, johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) wrote: > Ah, but I was referring to Hell-Lilim. The lower levels >of a Malakim's Resonance don't automatically go off when used on >a Lilim but the higher ones certainly do (from the Malakite's POV). Oh, ok. > That was an off-the-cuff example, but the spirit holds; Lilim >do favors for people, all sorts, both big and small favors. Sometimes, >there will be a task that the Lilim cannot or will not do and they >would prefer someone else to do it for them. Some Lilim will use it >for trivial things (evil Lilim might make people do >degrading, but simple, tasks), while others will 'cherry pick' and >like an art collector, only pick the best Geases. Still others will >go for straight utility and might only grab them when needed. I'm not comfortable with it because it lets Lilim have their way with any number of mundanes. Most powers are much more restricted. But, so it is. > Check my other post for ways to deal with out-of-control >Lilim. Good points. I think we basically agree that some control has to happen, just varying on techniques and levels. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:53:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Superior Intervention On Wed, 10 Sep 1997, David Edelstein wrote: > >>>Belial started the London fire of 1666; Baal fire-bombed London in > WW2.<<< > > One thing to be very wary of in In Nomine is blaming celestials for > everything that happens in the world. That way lies the World of > Darkness.... > > *Humans* started the London fire of 1666, and fire-bombed London in WW2. > Belial and Baal probably had minions there, fanning the flames, but if > Demon Princes and Archangels are personally engineering every major > disaster and/or miracle in history, the whole idea of the War becomes > pointless. *SIGH* Analogy. I was making analogies to illustrate my point, not claiming that Belial and Baal -actually- did such things. Why must people be such literalists? - -- Casca (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:36:02 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Superior Intervention > >>>Belial started the London fire of 1666; Baal fire-bombed London in > WW2.<<< > > One thing to be very wary of in In Nomine is blaming celestials for > everything that happens in the world. That way lies the World of > Darkness.... Very good point, Dave - that is the one thing (other than the lack of True Mundanes) that annoyed me the most about WoD... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com The society which scorns excellence in plumbing as a humble activity and tolerates shoddiness in philosophy because it is an exalted activity will have neither good plumbing nor good philosophy ... neither its pipes nor its theories will hold water." - Fortune Daemon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:24:04 -0400 From: Stacy Stroud Subject: IN> Dissonance, Discord, and Falling From Karakash: >The thing is that a Malakite can look at one of Dominic's servants >and say, "Look *hack wheeze!*, I can't Fall, so go off and play somewhere, >alright?" The typical angel with over 6 points of Discord is just >_asking_ for an inquisition... > So it's widely known in Heaven that Malakim literally *can't* Fall? I thought that was just a game-mechanics thing to prevent every other PC Malakite from accidentally becoming the very first Dark one. (In fact, I always thought it a rather clumsy fix.) The rulebook seems to imply that within the IN universe, Malakim don't Fall because someone (either Dominic's people or their fellow Malakim) *extinguishes* them before they can so dishonor their Choir. One of Dom's Choirs even has a special instruction to report Malakim with significant dissonance or Discord. So it would seem from the written material that *within the game world*, Malakim certainly don't go around bragging about their immunity to Falling. In fact, they're the most strictly policed of all Choirs, both from within and from without. Of course, you're Karakash, Archangel of the Canon, so if the impression I've gotten is wrong please tell me otherwise. That's certainly the way the rulebook makes things sound, though. Stacy Stroud sstroud@uky.campus.mci.net Stacy Stroud sstroud@uky.campus.mci.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 97 01:16 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Re: Another take on Eli >Hadn't thought of that. It'd be tough -- their words almost mesh, but >there's a certain difficulty of communication between them. Eli spending >his time primarily on Earth, and Lilith being 'protected' by the watchful >eye of Lucifer himself... > >(That last part isn't canon, but it certainly makes an interesting irony; >she's free to leave Hell at any time, but God Himself would probably >smite the crap out of her. So she finds herself a willing confinee in >Hell. Kobal probably has a chuckle over this from time to time.) There's no evidence that God wants to smite Lilith -- she left Adam before the Fall, and Lucifer recruited her later. Or at least that's the way I read it in the book. God didn't care that she walked off then, why should she worry now? Besides, Hell is a *nasty* place, full of slavery and worse, and she has no domain there. She'd probably be much happier hanging out in the corporeal realm. And she's a *Demon Princess* -- she's plenty strong enough to deal with anything up to a major intervention by God Himself -- something he didn't even do with Lucifer. So why should she worry? Yes, there are probably a lot of angels who'd like to nuke her, but she's no pushover now. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 02:17:22 -0400 (EDT) From: CeIestiaI7@aol.com Subject: IN> [HUMOR] Archangel of Grease (Long) See what can infest your mind if you sit at a bus stop long enough? I hope you all enjoy my warped view of reality. - ----------------cut-here-----------------------------------%<---- Frankie Archangel of Grease Grease is the Word. --Frankie Avalon Grease is the Word. It's got groove, it's got feeling. Most of all it is the Word belonging to the Archangel Frankie. The rebel celestial is bound to the concepts of youth, rebellion, young love, and musicals celebrating the Word. He is loved little by his more serious peers. Dominic has a rap sheet mile long on the young celestial, but has yet to make anything stick. Laurence and David harbor quite a bit of disdain for Frankie's lack of discipline and constant flouting of authority. Others defend him by saying he is merely embodying his Word. Frankie is a mercurian. He loves the spirit of individuality among the humans. He holds deep respect for the interactions among them, especially when the emotions are fresh and new to both parties. He likes hair tonic. Gels too. His vessels will always have a slicked up mop of hair and wear black leather no matter the situation. His favorite vessel is seemingly the byproduct of some weird union between James Dean and the Fonz. And man, can he sing! Frankie's servitors are charged with the troubled teens of the world. Through song and group dance numbers, they smooth the roads of angst on which so many have stumbled. Frankie's angels are rebellious spirits unto themselves, but each is loyal to Frankie. His angels also consider each other family. The usual tensions between choirs are absent under this archangel's wings. There will always be some tension among them, but as they say amongst themselves, "Womb to tomb; Birth to earth. We'll always be together!" DISSONANCE It is dissonant for any of the servitors of Grease to refrain from singing when they successfully perceive a musical cue. Such instances are painfully obvious to most who know of these servitors and their tendencies. If the angel misses her cue, she gains dissonance. If an angel prevents young love from blossoming, she gains dissonance. If the angel fails to bridge a gap between two disparate worlds of the young lovers, she is dissonant. It is very dissonant for a servitor of Grease to "chicken out" when her cool is called into question. CHOIR ATTUNEMENTS Seraphim Frankie's Seraphim are true to themselves. They know who they are and have learned to love it. They can instantly know whether a person is being true to his own self or not. Cherubim The Cherubim of Grease often attune themselves to motorcycles or cars. Such attuned vehicles respond to the loving touch of their angel. Cherubim may add their Celestial Forces to any skill relating to their vehicle. Ofanim The Ofanim are vigorous dancers. Their leaps and spins befuddle anyone who can see them perform. By spending 1 Essence and making an Agility roll modified by their Ethereal Forces, they may stupefy any one person with their fancy footwork. The check digit is the number of 5 second rounds the victim is befuddled. The Ofanim may spend additional Essence to affect a larger audience. Each additional person requires another point of Essence. Elohim Frankie's Elohim are the counselors of the angst-ing and heartbroken souls. They may spot these troubled youths automatically. In addition, there will always be an "office" (be it a restroom, warehouse, or bedroom) where they may privately discuss whatever troubles the youth in question. Malakim The Malakim of Frankie's Word are the masters of choreographed knife fights. That is to say that each step, thrust, and dodge seems planned. To some extent, this is true. The Malakite hears the rhythm of the dance in the Symphony, and intuitively knows the steps. She may make a Perception roll to hear the Symphony. The check digit is the modifier she may add to her small weapons and dodge rolls for the duration of the knife fight! Kyriotates Called the "choreographers" by the other choirs, the Kyriotates may possess a number of "extras" equal to their Corporeal Forces for the duration of any Symphonic "number." They remain in perfect step while dancing, and in perfect harmony when singing with their various hosts. Mercurians The Mercurians of Grease can rally a group of people, and strengthen their sense of purpose. By singing, they can unite a group to serve a common cause. They may add their Celestial Forces to any Emote rolls. SERVITOR ATTUNEMENTS We Go Together Angels of Grease are in tune to with the swinging rock and roll of the Symphony. They are even able to bring its music to the ears of others. With a successful Perception check, the angel can identify the current "number" being played in the Symphony. The check digit represents the number of people who will intuitively know and perform the "number" with the angel. On a check digit of six, everyone in the immediate area joins in! Greased Lightning In a direct competition with one other opponent, the angel may spend Essence to increase the check digit of the contested roll. Each Essence spent raise it by 1 point. Angels of Grease can out-drag, out-cool, and out-fight any and all challengers. DISTINCTIONS Vassal of Solos Any Song performed by the angel receives an additional +1 to the check digit. Friend of Autos The Rebels Without a Cloud have a special affinity for cars and motorbikes. An angel with this Distinction can start any car by thumping the dashboard with his fist, or kick starting a motorcycle. The celestial requires no key. This also works on jukeboxes. The cost is 1 Essence. Master of Cool The aura of coolness is about an angel of this measure is palpable. So cool is she, that she never has to worry about a hair ever daring to fall out of place. Simply by walking into a room she commands the attention of all present. With the snap of a finger and 1 point of Essence, she may bring all unattached members of the opposite sex to her feet, clamoring for her attention. For 2 points of Essence, they'll line up for kisses from the angel. For 3 points, they'll faint afterward. RELATIONS Allied: None. Frankie's a loner. Associated: Eli, Novalis, Janus Hostile: Dominic, Laurence, David BASIC RITES = Satirize an authority figure in song and dance. = Work on a classic car or motorcycle for three hours. CHANCE OF INVOCATION: 2 INVOCATION MODIFERS +1 A wrench or a bottle of red nail polish +2 A leather (or pink satin) jacket +3 A gun with one round fired, and enough left to kill Chino, the other members of the gang and still have one left for yourself +4 A heartfelt ballad of love from an innocent young lover +5 The whole company singing a Reprise +6 A nationwide revival of a major musical Scott M. Alvarado -- tensider@iname.com "There was a young cherub named Devon Who went to a 7-11. "My Lord," he did state, "These Slurpees(tm) are great! It's like drinking a cold cup of Heaven!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:39:21 -0400 From: "Jens H. Kruuse" Subject: IN> Beth of the Archives Whilst thinking about the choir for the so-called Archangel Beth, I suddenly came to the realization that she is not an Archangel at all! I believe she is in fact: Beth, Angel of Archives Mistress of Divine Knowledge(Seraphim) Mercurian of Destiny She is definitely a "Friend of Man" and she is helping All_of_Us for nothing! Not one of us at a time for something. There goes the Bright Lilim (unless someone will testify to a coerced help). She has a discord, Aura/4. According to the Book (p. 87) "Some celestials stand out in a crowd." And she certainly does. But nobody would mistake her for a demon, thus she cannot be a Lilim. I'm afraid the Aura has persuaded some people to grant her AA status but her word, Archives, is in no way big enough for that. Cheers, Jens (Who happens to enjoy INC and most of Beth's work and should post some of his creative stuff soonish. Currently my players are helping out the angel of Swift Justice based on one of Boddhi's ancient seeds...) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 17:01:20 +1000 (EST) From: Peter Frederick Subject: Re: IN> Skills higher than 6 Dear Leath and John and List At 09:21 AM 11/9/97 GMT+10, Leath wrote: >Karakash wrote: > >" I don't like this suggestion, not because it's unreasonable, >but because it goes against the 'destiny' spin I was putting on the >single skill. Basically, there is _one_ thing that each human being >can do remarkably well, if they but look for it and cultivate that >skill." > >I agree with the Destiny spin with only one amendment. Humans should >also have the same 'potential' ability with the skill most associated >with their Fate. Whichever one they choose to develop to its >potential definitely influences their path in life. Hitler could >have developed his Painting skills higher and higher, but chose to >(was influenced to?) concentrate on his Leadership and Political >skills. We all know how that turned out. > >Leath. Why does the Fate and Destiny have to be related to different skills. I doubt Hitler would ever have been a good painter, but he could have used his powers of Leadership to bring people together rather than force then apart. This does tie in with my feeling about how Big Destinies and Fates work. Basically a Mortal as a Big Potential, say in the field of Politics, and then the Servitors of Fate and Destiny start working to see if that big value will be positive or negative. Thanking you for your indulgence. Yours Peter. > > > Reply to peterf@wr.com.au What does the Lord require of you, but to do justice and to love kindness and to walk humbly with your God ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 05:11:05 -0400 (EDT) From: "Benjamin D. Hutchins" Subject: Re: IN> [HUMOR] Archangel of Grease (Long) > > See what can infest your mind if you sit at a bus stop long enough? I hope > you all enjoy my warped view of reality. > ----------------cut-here-----------------------------------%<---- > > Frankie > Archangel of Grease OK, I'm up way too late and this has prompted me to post one of my own characters (who I made up a little while ago) as a sort of pseudo-rebuttal... :) - ---snip--- FRANKIEL The Demon of Bad Taste Impudite Captain of the Media CORPOREAL FORCES - 4 Strength 8 Agility 8 ETHEREAL FORCES - 5 Intelligence 12 Precision 8 CELESTIAL FORCES - 4 Will 10 Perception 6 Vessel: Human/4 (Charisma +2) Songs: Charm (Ethereal/4, Celestial/2), Entropy (Celestial/3), Tongues (Corporeal/4) Skills: Driving/2, Fast-Talk/4, Knowledge (Bad Taste Through the Ages)/6, Lying/3, Savoir-Faire/3, Singing/3 ATTUNEMENTS: Impudite of the Media, Subliminal, Captain of Swank SPECIAL RITE: Frankiel can draw Essence from anyone he can cause to exhibit bad taste. Frankiel, or "Frankie" as he prefers to be called, is a great favorite of Nybbas's - and, it is rumored, favored also by Lucifer. It is said that the granting of Frankie's Word went something like this: LUCIFER: Yes? FRANKIE: O great Lord of Darkness, I beseech thee, grant me my Word! I have ever yearned to serve and advance the Word of Bad Taste. LUCIFER: Your qualifications? FRANKIE: Regretfully, Shining One, I cannot take credit for the 1970's - - those clever humans came up with that on their own - but I did help it along, and I am responsible for its recent revival. I coined all the crass jokes that followed the Space Shuttle Challenger Disaster, and - LUCIFER (interrupting): Including the one about the astronauts washing up in the Bahamas? FRANKIE: Yes, O Ineffable Greatness. One of my best, if I do say so. LUCIFER: Go on. FRANKIE: My more recent achievements have been no less horrific, Most Unholy. I am responsible, for example, for the current fad among youngsters for wearing hideously oversized pants and deliberately letting their underwear hang out. LUCIFER: That was you? FRANKIE (humbly): It was, O Master of the Pits. LUCIFER (thumbs-up): You the man. Whether this is true, or only the product of Nybbas's media machine, no one is sure; but Lucifer has not denied it. Frankiel delights in making humans make themselves look stupid, act stupid, and generally make themselves unpleasant to each other and everyone else. He and his Superior have a most harmonious relationship - - Frankiel can use the power of Nybbas's Media to spread and legitimize his exercises in hideous taste, and Nybbas reaps the benefit of an ever-more-desensitized populace, and constant proof that they really will buy almost anything and believe - really believe - they like it. Nybbas also occasionally loans Frankie to Kobal, who is constantly amused by his work - amounting, as it does, to an endless stream of cruel pranks upon humanity. Frankie himself does not practice what he preaches - he knows that it's ugly, crass, boorish and stupid. Instead, he appears as a handsome, late-twentyish fellow, well-dressed, well-mannered and cultured. No one would ever guess that he's responsible for the apparently unbreakable dominance of bright, green-based plaids in golfing attire. - ---snip--- I imagine the Archangel Frankie gets really sick of being mistaken for this guy. :) (Shameless plug... a few characters and a couple of little stories I've come up with have been stuck in a little shrine on my web site: http://www.eyrie.net/~gryphon/IN/ A friend of mine got me hooked on the game not too long ago, even though we haven't actually played yet, and I've been frittering away some of my creativity reserve on it as a diversion. :) - --G. - -- Benjamin D. Hutchins, cofounder and Keeper-Straight of the Continuity Eyrie Productions, Unlimited - An AnimeTech Limited Company -><- Visit us on the World Wide Web at http://www.eyrie.net/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 06:41:12 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Homosexuality in In Nomine From: Colin Fredericks > 10 points to anyone who can figure out what page those exact words came from.< IN p48 Unfortunately that arguement supports teh Idea that god wants angels to fall or he would have made them all malakim. Adam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 06:41:08 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: i IN> Eli is more than he appears >From: Earl Wajenberg On the issue of Eli or Jesus being "vessels" of God: First of all, might you mean "role" more than vessel? Second, if you are interested, standard Christology would not have it that God was related to the body of Jesus as a celestial is related to its vessel, but rather as a human soul is related to its body. < God is a Kyriotate. Adam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 06:41:01 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Really Bad Perception rolls. Message text written by INTERNET:in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > They fluffed Perception rolls at *PLUS SIX*???? These are *angels*????< The Seraph of Micheal has perception 4 and rolled an 11, The Offanim [Jean and Janus] both rolled 666. What can I say. Adam Canning ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:50:15 -0400 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Night Music: "...a skill known at Level 6 or better..." > What if skill #1 led to their Fate and skill #2 was their path to Destiny, > or vice versa? Some people who have done leading edge research on projects > such as the Manhattan Project have changed the course of their studies > radically because of their experience. One astronaut who landed on the moon > became a priest. Alexander Turing was a linguistic expert until computers > arrived and he went into Computer Science, creating Turing Machines and the > Turing Test, a test to see if a computer truly thinks. Early Computer > Science is rife with top-notch Linguists, Mathematicians, Electrical > Engineers, and others who abandoned their original fields to found Computer > Science. Heh. 'top-notch' could very well be skill 6 and a good characteristic. Allowing people to change involves complications that would add more headaches than usefulness to the game, IMO. Fer example, if you write up a character that is going from one 'best thing' to another, do you put one with a bullet and the other with a down arrow? "Medicine has risen two places on our charts since last Tuesday, displacing Chemical Warfare, and new on our charts: Psychology!") =) > > In the specific case of Languages, I'd let each level that the > >primary skill goes above 6 to count as one level on _every_ other language > >they have studied to any degree (up to 6). This should simulate language > >prodigies quite well. > > The trouble I have with a hard and fast rule like this (though I'm usually > in favor of bright-line rules) is that if you know French, say, you've got > a huge head start on Italian or Spanish--the other Romance Languages. It > may help you a touch with German, but it doesn't help much at all with > Japanese, which has basically no common ground with the Indo-European > languages. I think this is one to toss back in the GM's court. We could > come up with some language diagram showing the relations between languages > (I saw one in some RPG!), but I think that's out since IN is rules-light. > Trust the GM on this one, says I. Just give him the opening and let him run > with it. Dat's cool with me. I _trust_ most GM's to figure these things out. The reason I applied the bonus universally is that a person who is good with languages, really does learn the next language easier no matter which one it is. Intensive study of languages/linguistics gives you some meta-language structures that your original language probably didn't have. (i.e. Someone who has gone through the process of learning another language to OVER 6, has learned things about languages in general, plus has added concepts to their 'world-view' that their original language didn't have.) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:57:42 -0400 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Night Music: "...a skill known at Level 6 or better..." On Sep 10, 6:38pm, Walter Milliken wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Night Music: "...a skill known at Level 6 or better..." > >Non-canon suggestion (please comment!) > >-------------------- > > Humans are allowed to have ONE skill above six. This > >represents their greatest gift and is partly because of their > >close ties to the Symphony. Not everyone has a skill this high... > >in fact most people never even bother to excel at even _one_ thing, > >but for those who try, there is something they are better at than > >nearly anyone else. > > This skill's limit is 9. Because the human is going far > >beyond what most people ever dream of for that field, training > >is nearly impossible to find or requires a _lot_ of experience > >or research. > > I suspect this will result in most PC humans having such a high skill > level. I'm not sure if this is a problem, though.... > > I don't particularly mind humans with skills above 6, anyway -- though I > would probably want to limit characteristic+skill to <= 12. For a human > to get an auto-success check digit bonus, then, they'd have to spend (or > blow) Essence. I don't see any problem with it from that point. You can get an auto-success _right now_ easily. (Human characteristic+ skill max now is 16). Sure, there would be combat monsters that want to get an auto-success with a 19, but that just brings them in line with the combat-heavy celestials. Of course, their total ability will still be FAR below that of an average celestial character. The whole idea is that humans can excel against celestials if they've reached their full potential in one area. If that means auto-successes, so be it. In an all-human campaign, the Essence cost isn't unreasonable since skills are relatively cheap at the high end (linear cost system). This would keep the one-trick ponies from dominating too badly, but you'd have to erratify the auto-success rules to specifically disallow them for humans. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 09:21:05 -0400 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Yves: Mechanics > However, my problem is the whole Celestial Detection issue again. I firmly > belive that Divine Destiny should not work on Celestials, but how do you > stop it from being a perfect detector? > > Yves' Library: Celestials lives are not recorded. > > Any thoughts would be appricated. I don't have much problem with it myself, but if you want a non-canon rationalization, here it goes. ;) Yves library has recorded everything in existance that he can know about through his sources, plus some things that he had a very good idea would happen. Previously unknown celestials (ones created in Hell) are outside his purview until they make enough waves to get recorded. So 'deep' agents aren't in the book other than as their Role. IMO, it's not a _huge_ problem since it makes sense that someone among the Host has the ability to detect demons. Anyone who really, really desires that their cover remain intact can try to get the Humanity attunement or something similar. I don't think it would be impossible for a new attunement specially for the situation to be made... undercover work is so important! How's this: False Name With this attunement, a celestial can assume a Name other than their True Name. Any resonance or attunement that can detect this or the truth about their identity will reveal only the False Name. A Role of at least level 5 is required to get this attunement, but any Superior can give it out. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 09:47:00 -0500 From: Colin Fredericks Subject: Re: IN> Homosexuality in In Nomine >From: Colin Fredericks >> 10 points to anyone who can figure out what page those exact words >came from.< > >IN p48 >Unfortunately that arguement supports teh Idea that god wants angels to >fall or he would have made them all malakim. > >Adam That's exactly right on both counts. 10 points for you. :) As I've said before: if God really created angels and the universe, then we can't guess at his plan anyway. If God didn't create everything (which seems to be cannon), then they have those tendencies on their own anyway. It's just a question of how you run your game, and whether your Creator is omnipotent and omniscient. Maybe God did plan on having some angels fall (read the stuff about the Grigori and Free Will). -Sir Colin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 09:34:41 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> About the four horsemen of the Apocalypse... Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > NIV? New International Version. [Of the black horseman]: > Huh? I assume that this is Pestilence, but this reference is > somewhat obscure... Actually, the white horseman is often identified as Pestilence, though I don't think that's a good identification myself. Conquest or Tyranny would be better, as I said. Interestingly, there is a roleplaying game called "The Rapture," based on Revelation, by Quintessential Mercy Press, which identifies the white horseman as Tyranny. The white horseman is also sometimes identified as the Antichrist, who is also identified with the Beast (he of the number 666) who appears later in Revelation. Anyway, the black horseman is traditionally identified as Famine, because the prices quoted by the mysterious voice are crushing and outrageous. In "Good Omens," the fourth horseman, while waiting for the last trump, amuses himself by posing as a diet doctor and doing things like inventing fast food chains and encouraging the emaciated look among models and anorexia among young women. In modern terms, the black horseman might be generalized as Economic Disaster. I can't think of a current demon prince who matches really well. Haagenti is the only one who comes to mind, but he's really at the opposite pole. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 09:52:24 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> [HUMOR] Archangel of Grease (Long) Surely Frankie's Ofanim, who ARE wheels, should have something to do with cars and cycles? Perhaps the Cherubim are supernal mechanics while the Ofanim are supernal drivers. Or maybe Ofanim of Frankie can take the form of a car or cycle and form automotive partnerships with the Cherubim. (Aspiring relievers who are Ofanite wannabes cultivate skateboard vessels.) Just a suggestion. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 09:33:38 -0400 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Dissonance, Discord, and Falling On Sep 11, 12:24am, Stacy Stroud wrote: > Subject: IN> Dissonance, Discord, and Falling > From Karakash: > > >The thing is that a Malakite can look at one of Dominic's servants > >and say, "Look *hack wheeze!*, I can't Fall, so go off and play somewhere, > >alright?" The typical angel with over 6 points of Discord is just > >_asking_ for an inquisition... > > > > > So it's widely known in Heaven that Malakim literally *can't* Fall? I > thought that was just a game-mechanics thing to prevent every other PC > Malakite from accidentally becoming the very first Dark one. (In fact, I > always thought it a rather clumsy fix.) It's generally accepted by most celestials that Malakim literally cannot Fall. There has never been an instance recorded in Heaven and there have been numerous attempts by Hell to get one these warriors to their side (A Malakite of Hell? Eeeeee! Wouldn't that be a mean S.O.B.?) Mind you, not _everyone_ believes that (and Dominic watches _everyone_ . . . just in case), but they've built up an impressive track record since they were created! - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #335 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.