From owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Thu Sep 11 15:09:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA16776 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:09:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id OAA16000 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:47:02 -0500 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:47:02 -0500 Message-Id: <199709111947.OAA16000@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #336 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@LISTS.IO.COM Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, September 11 1997 Volume 01 : Number 336 In this digest: Re: IN> Dissonance, Discord, and Falling Re: IN> About the four horsemen of the Apocalypse... Re: IN> [HUMOR] Archangel of Grease (Long) Re: IN> Superior Intervention Re: IN> About the four horsemen of the Apocalypse... Re: Re: IN> About the four horsemen of the Apocalypse... Re: IN> About the four horsemen of the Apocalypse... Re: IN> Lilim Again Re: Geas Entrapment (Re: IN> Lilith's Potence) Re: Geas Entrapment (Re: IN> Lilith's Potence) Re: Geas Entrapment (Re: IN> Lilith's Potence) Re: IN> About the four horsemen of the Apocalypse... Re: IN> Night Music: "...a skill known at Level 6 or better..." Re: IN> Falling in Strange Ways Re: IN> Homosexuality in In Nomine Re: IN> Really Bad Perception rolls. Re: IN> Beth of the Archives Re: IN> About the four horsemen of the Apocalypse... Re: IN> Dissonance, Discord, and Falling Re: Geas Entrapment (Re: IN> Lilith's Potence) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:17:03 -0400 From: "Joshua Knorr" Subject: Re: IN> Dissonance, Discord, and Falling >So it's widely known in Heaven that Malakim literally *can't* Fall? I The way I read the rulebook, if Malakim do Fall, they don't to it by the normal method. All other Choirs fall by racking up dissonance and then failing their dissonance rolls. Fail your first roll, you're an Outcast. Fail the second, and you Fall. When Outcast Malakim fail their dissonance rolls, they just gain a level of Discord (IN, p58, sidebar "Falling"). If Malakim *do* fall, it's not by accumulating dissonance. And any Malakite on the path to Hell is likely to get himself obliterated before he falls into the Abyss. Joshua Knorr A conservative is a liberal who has just been mugged. A liberal is a conservative who has just been booked. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 97 09:39:31 -0500 (CDT) From: kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) Subject: Re: IN> About the four horsemen of the Apocalypse... At 03:54 PM 9/10/97 -0400, in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: >I think they are actually Angels, probably of Dominic. I wish I had a bible >with me, but the quote goes something like: > > ...and when I heard the fourth trumpet, behold, the Heavens parted and > I saw four Horsemen, and they were given power to smite the earth, > and the first rode a red horse, and his name was War, and the second > rode a black horse and his name was Pestilence, and the third rode a > white horse and his name was Famine, and the fourth rode a pale horse > and his name was Death. And they were unleashed to punish the world... > >Obviously, this is just off the top of my head, but I'm fairly sure it's >close. No mention of *what* these guys are, but the implications of the rest >of the passage are that they are on God's side, and being held back for the >"special circumstances" of the last day. Well, in my Bible (for those of you who still think that different Bibles translate even remotely the same), the Horsemen are Conquest, War, Famine, and Death, and Hell was behind death. Kestrel ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:49:56 -0400 (EDT) From: CeIestiaI7@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> [HUMOR] Archangel of Grease (Long) In a message dated 97-09-11 10:32:04 EDT, you write: > Surely Frankie's Ofanim, who ARE wheels, should have something > to do with cars and cycles? Perhaps the Cherubim are supernal > mechanics while the Ofanim are supernal drivers. Or maybe Ofanim > of Frankie can take the form of a car or cycle and form automotive > partnerships with the Cherubim. (Aspiring relievers who are Ofanite > wannabes cultivate skateboard vessels.) I was thinking about that as I wrote, but you know, in the tradition of West Side Story and Grease, etc... there has to be a group who can dance endlessly and acrobatically. Since the Ofanim are the very essence of motion, who better? Make more sense? But I did think of your suggestion already. It makes good sense and was (is) worth considering. S.A. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:40:20 -0400 From: Hunter Johnson Subject: Re: IN> Superior Intervention On Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:53:24 -0400 (EDT), Casca said: >On Wed, 10 Sep 1997, David Edelstein wrote: >>[Casca wrote:] >>>Belial started the London fire of 1666; Baal fire-bombed London in >>>WW2. >> ... if Demon Princes and Archangels are personally engineering >> every major disaster and/or miracle in history, the whole idea of >> the War becomes pointless. >*SIGH* > Analogy. I was making analogies to illustrate my point, not claiming that > Belial and Baal -actually- did such things. > Why must people be such literalists? Ah, the eternal cry of those who didn't make themselves clear. Here's one possible answer: Because there's no way to tell if you were speaking literally or analogically? [Yes, this is kind of a harsh reply. I'm not normally harsh (ok, yes I am), but accusing David of being such a literalist was pretty harsh, too.] Hunter - -- J. Hunter Johnson /\ SJG Errata Coordinator (sjg-errata@io.com) http://www.io.com/~jhunterj/ /()\ Knightmare Chess Development Coordinator jhunterj@io.com /____\ South Park: Care Bears on Acid -- G.C. Settlers RoboRally Brain Groo LunchMoney DinoHunt Knightmare GURPS AoR INWO ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 97 09:39:30 -0500 (CDT) From: kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) Subject: Re: IN> About the four horsemen of the Apocalypse... At 08:17 PM 9/10/97 +0000, in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: >> Mark's memory is quite close. From the NIV translation: > >NIV? > >> I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard >> one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!" >> I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, >> and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on >> conquest. > >Baal, probably. AKA Conquest. So why would he let someone else be War? Mebbe Asmodeus... >> When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living >> creature say, "Come!" Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. >> Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to >> make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword. > >Belial, especially given the description of the horse. AKA War. Nah. Baal. >> When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living >> creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse! >> Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. Then I heard what >> sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart >> of wheat for a day's wages, [2] and three quarts of barley for a day's >> wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!" > >Huh? I assume that this is Pestilence, but this reference is >somewhat obscure... No, this is Famine. Guess who ;> >> When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth >> living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a pale >> horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind >> him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, >> famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth. > >Saminga, without a doubt. Yep. Cool, no? Kestrel ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:04:19 -0400 (EDT) From: IQJason@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: IN> About the four horsemen of the Apocalypse... Earl Wajenberg: "In modern terms, the black horseman might be generalized as Economic Disaster. I can't think of a current demon prince who matches really well. Haagenti is the only one who comes to mind, but he's really at the opposite pole." That's because they haven't yet presented an opposite number for Marc yet...I presume that Mammon would probably fit pretty well. yours, - -J ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 09:18:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Dennis C Hwang Subject: Re: IN> About the four horsemen of the Apocalypse... On Wed, 10 Sep 1997, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > > Mark's memory is quite close. From the NIV translation: > > NIV? New International Version. > > I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard > > one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!" > > I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, > > and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on > > conquest. > > Baal, probably. AKA Conquest. Yeah, although often identified as Pestilence. > > When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living > > creature say, "Come!" Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. > > Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to > > make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword. > > Belial, especially given the description of the horse. AKA War. > > > When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living > > creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse! > > Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. Then I heard what > > sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart > > of wheat for a day's wages, [2] and three quarts of barley for a day's > > wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!" > > Huh? I assume that this is Pestilence, but this reference is > somewhat obscure... Nope; Famine. > > When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth > > living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a pale > > horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind > > him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, > > famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth. > > Saminga, without a doubt. > Yeah...although, now that I think about it, it seems to me that Saminga as the sole representative of Death in the IN universe is a little lopsided. After all, Death shouldn't always fall into the demonic realm. Anyone interested in a writeup for Archangel Azrael? (Appears as a perky young black-clad Goth girl? :) - --Dennis dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu xenopathologist at large! Deathwalker for President: for some *real* health care reform. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 19:48:41 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Again At 6:57 PM -0400 9/10/97, Walter Milliken wrote: >>Right -- and then there's this list of what *I've* gotten... > >>"A student." (Malakite of War, don't ask; a Level 6!) > >Actually that one was more like "A worthy student to be my successor" or >something like that. Close-a-bloody-nuff'. Got even worse when she got told he was a Malakite... (Meets Gaby one day, gets a favorable reaction (by the skin of the dice's teeth!); meets the MoW the next, and *he* gets a favorable reaction to her. Oiy.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 20:12:38 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Geas Entrapment (Re: IN> Lilith's Potence) At 10:55 PM -0700 9/9/97, zingaro@peak.org wrote: > > >(Until the expanded Lilim rules are published.) > > Can you say when and where? >Oh no. Is SJG gonna do the TSR/White Wolf thing and put out seventy-two >choir books, and Expanded Servitor foldouts and cetera? As Karakash said, NO! But there are a few expansions on some tricky things, here and there in the Cycles. A very few. The little green s are one of them. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 19:53:34 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Geas Entrapment (Re: IN> Lilith's Potence) At 12:46 PM -0400 9/10/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >> If it's enough work, I might agree with you. But let's suppose a Lilim of >> Belial does some piddliing Geas/1 favor for Bill Gates. She Geases him to >> write her a check for a billion dollars, a trivial amount for BG, and >> remember that he gets hit hourly if he doesn't do it. > > We're working on that Geas/1 time problem right now... =) >Besides, you are grossly over-estimating how much money BG has. Even >for him, a million dollars is probably not 'trivial'. Besides, the >level of the Geas is the difficulty the Geasee would have in fulfilling >the request. What can you do for Bill that he can't snap his fingers >and have done for him? ;) (This is a good time to use that Sauna >trick, btw...) Better. Leave him in it, and have the *rest* of the world owe you a Geas/6!! >> > And Asmodeus might look at her dubiously... (And she's going >> >to be making noise with Corp Healing. If the Malakite of the Sword >> >drops in, we're not going to get lots of logic chopping about whether >> >she's evil or not -- we're going to get lots of the Malakite chopping >> >at the Lilim while she runs away at speed.) >> >> Corp Healing is only 1 essence, IIRC. And the disturbance is the Essence + the Check Digit. That's as much as 7 disturbance! And, if the GM wishes, all of the Lilim Faith Healer's Songs of Healing might be additive, since she's doing them so often... So, let's see, *how* many Songs of Healing did you want to perform today? >>And how is it she's Evil if she's >> curing people? She'd only be Evil if she used the Geases for something >> Evil. > > Her intentions on getting the Geases are evil (self-serving, >at the very least and more likely in service to Hell). And she's a demon. A Malekite of Laurence is *not* going to hang around and discuss things with a demon. He's going to chop her. >> I don't know. 7-9 Geases. Isn't that enough for a campaign? It seems to me >> a Lilith should be going after Geases for a specific reason, not >> shotgunning dozens of Geases. Other bands and choruses have similar >> limitations on their powers. > > That number seems low to me, as well. I envision Lilim >getting a lot of nearly-worthless Geases and occasionally needing >to call them in. That network of favors is typically useless most >of the time, but when you need someone to come fix your car at >three o'clock in the morning... ;) Bingo. What keeps Lilim from invoking fifty million little Geasa is the threat of dissonance and/or Intervention. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 20:11:32 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Geas Entrapment (Re: IN> Lilith's Potence) At 5:33 AM +0000 9/10/97, Walt Mazur wrote: >On Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:31:15 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy >wrote: > >>>Sure, but that's under 0.5% >> >>Depends on one's dice. So make it *worth* >>that low probability. > >Don't use those pointy D&D dice; use the boxy ones with the dots on them! Yeah, but they keep coming up all the same. >>(Until the expanded Lilim rules are published.) > >Can you say when and where? In the Revelations cycle. >> I think that if you're looking for something specific, the >>CD needs to be random -- maybe you don't know that somebody else >>was about to let the guy out, but the Symphony did, so he'd only >>have stayed in there an hour. Otherwise, it would probably have >>to be a negative modifier equal to the Geas you're looking for... >> > >I was thinking of a case where the Lilim essentially has the victim >trapped, ensuring no alternate Need-filler. There is never perfection on the corporeal plane... (Hey, if deathtraps worked, would heros escape them so often?) If a Lilim was willing to look for the thread of Need in the symphony and grab it as soon as she found it, I'd use a random check digit. If a GM doesn't like that (and I can see that one), then I'd go for an *additional* penalty, equal to the Geas-level she was looking for. Being able to find *specific* needs *is* a powerful ability, and shouldn't be trivial. Being able to find a specific Need/6 is *way* too evil to be easy! >>>So, she slaps him awake, or gives him a touch of healing. I think the point >>>is still valid that she can get big plusses, guaranteeing a big Geas. >> >>Or several smaller ones, if the GM rules there *isn't* a Geas/6 -- >>especially a Geas/6 for what she wants. (And if the Healing was >>what he needed, then she just satisfied it in a way that didn't get >>her the Geas...) > >So, the smart Lilim will have the room bugged, and only go in once the >victim is screaming in pain. Going to take a while to work up to this deathtrap spa here, you know... I wonder how many favors she had to pledge to Vapula & company for all this. >>Yeah, but it's not Sex, it's "Sex with this here Lilim" that will most >>often be found. If it's just Sex, that's a lower Geas, I'd say -- >>easier to fulfill. > >Since the Lilim of Lust is willing, it's obviously the easiest Need to >satisfy: The Lilim is willing and available. Geas/1 or /2 if he Needs that >much. :) It also depends on how hard the person thinks it would be to talk the cutie into bed with him. If he thinks she'd take a year of wooing... >>>The divine Intervention is so rare as to not matter to the game balance. >> >>I dunno -- got three of them in one game. (And a 666.) > >I keep telling you, it's those pointy dice you're using! Is not. It's the Discord - Bad Dice/3 I've got. >>True. But if you're doing it fifty times a day, then the GM summons >>up some kind of random thing for Will & Essence determination: eventually, >>you get the Will 8, Essence 5 mortal, and the Lilim goes owchies. >> >>That's the main thing -- when you're doing something like this, on >>the scale required to be obnoxious, you're playing with the laws of >>averages, and they'll eventually catch up with you in a big way. >>Yeah, a lucky Lilim will get away with it for a good long time. >>But *that's* probably going to be the exception as well. > >Yeah, I GM shouldn't let a player get away with a Geas factory, but it's >easier for the GMs if the rules don't seem to bless such abuses. As Karakash sorta said, if we wanted to make a rule for every little thing (and this is a little thing, really), then it'd be in GURPS... >>>And any [Lilim] who doesn't have Will 12 >> >>(Will doesn't have anything to do with whether the Geas will stick or >>not, currently. I could see the Habbalite change lapping over >>so that it's Perception to see a Need and Will to impose a Geas, >>but so far that's not canon.) > >You're right--too much email. I wish the Superiors would get off their >rears and bless that. It seems like a slam dunk to me. Not really -- I've been thinking on the mechanics of how to work it, and I'm not sure... For instance, if it's a Will to Will contest, should the level of the Geas still subtract? Should it subtract from the check digit? ( NO WAY!) Besides, it starts turning into Too Many Rolls. :-p >>>or Celestial Charm or lots of essence to spend, deserves what she gets. >> >>Though all of that makes noise. Now maybe you can do that routinely >>in a demon-owned town, but as both a player and a GM, I expect >>an angel to show up eventually if one's making noise. (Yes, as a >>player of a Renegade, I expect hostile celestials to show up if >>my character makes noise routinely. That's why she's such a quiet >>little Renegade.) > >Well, as long as you make a little noise at a time, it's not that hard to >secure an area to make sure it's impossible for the disturbance to be >heard. How? Be in the middle of a wasteland? That's going to look odd, and the next thing you know, the place is crawling (literally) with Kyrios of Jean. >>>You're ignoring the +2 touch and the +2 easy task. Even if you discard the >>>+2 easy task, that's still a Geas 3+, enough to make a mortal very unlikely >>>make his Will roll. >> >>If she's touching him -- in which case, he's already been released from >>the steam bath thing. > >I was thinking of the old-style cabinets where your head sticks out, not a >sauna or a walk in steam bath. Maybe I've been watching too many Agatha >Christie mysteries set in the '20s and '30s. Waaaaaaaaaay too many of those! Hm. If the person knew that the Lilim were responsible, I might give bonuses to Will to resist the Geas, or make the Geas level lower. This doesn't matter much with the Lilith thing, since a Superior will quash a PC's will any day of the week, but it might to a PC one. Just an unofficial "as a GM" thing, though. >> (For that example. There are probably other ones >>for that.) Yes, the mortal can be unlikely to make it if the Geas is big. >>But eventually, there's the Interventions, and by that time, the annoying >>person will probably be about to get informed that God (the GM) is >>*really* sick of this trick. > >True. But then the player will complain to the GM that the rules allow it. And the rules for Divine Intervention say the GM gets to do what he wants. And if he wants lightning to strike... >>(Which I don't think is that awful a scam, actually. It sounds like >>something that angels should be tracking down...) > >Hard to detect it's going on until the Lilim has a *lot* of Geases >activated. True enough. So it's a big job. >>[Superior shows up on 111] >>>Ok, so *if* she catches an Intervention she's in some trouble, and maybe he >>>makes her poof her Geases for her life (possible? Can Geases be destroyed >>>by a common Lilim?). >> >>(Her own Geases, yes. She can terminate a Geas she laid at any time. >>Or he can just destroy her. That makes the Geasa go poof too.) > >Maybe she gives them to Lilith for safe-keeping--Lilith charging interest, >of course. Serious interest. Lilith's not going to hang onto one of those for nuttin'... (Due to the ruling from On High that Geasa cannot be traded, I figure it's as much hassle for Lilith to *accept* a Geas-token from a Lilim as it would be for her to remove Discord.) >"Honest Mr. AA, I'd love to terminate those 50 Geas/6's for you, but Lilith >has them all! I can get back some for you, but none if you kill me. I'll >Geas myself to release some if you let me go. Did you have any particular >ones in mind?" (Might as well gain some information while we're at it!) "All of them. Or I just kill you and keep you from doing this. If I make a good Example, then your sisters will think twice about it... Think your Mother'll protect you? Why should she? She'll be holding those Geases free and clear with you turned into a Remnant..." >>If that's the Need! It could be "sex, with *anyone*," it could be >>"sex with my beloved, who's in Europe," or it could be "sex with that >>cutie over there." (And sometimes it's "Sex, with that *other* >>cutie over there." Ticked off my Renegade no end...) > >True. Still, the Lilim is offering, not entrapping. Explain to me the difference between "Look, I am a drool-worthy babe, you Need me" and "Dark Desire that guy for me, Joe of Lust." >>>Sure, a Lilim can make it happen, but it isn't going to be a Geas/6, and >>>she isn't really going to be able to run an assembly line. >> >>You don't know those Lilim of Lust... No, it's not going to be a >>one-time Geas/6, but if it only takes 6 hours or 6 days... > >That still represents a significant investment of time by the Lilim and the >consent of the victim. The problem with the Geas factory is that it takes >little time and no real consent of the victim. Okay, so we get a Geas/1 on 6 people a day, and then another on them the next day, and... >>>She has to work to make it happen. I'm objecting to capabilities >>>that let Lilim create Geas factories that give them a virtually >>>unlimited number of Geases. >> >>So you object to brothels of Lust? > >Consent. Dark Desire? Drugs? Balseraphs? (You want her, you know you do.) Impudites? Seduction/6 & Seduction/6 Talisman? [...] >If it's enough work, I might agree with you. But let's suppose a Lilim of >Belial does some piddliing Geas/1 favor for Bill Gates. She Geases him to >write her a check for a billion dollars, a trivial amount for BG, and >remember that he gets hit hourly if he doesn't do it. > >Now that she has all that money, she starts burning down the homes of >people she wants Geases on. Most people don't have the insurance or cash to >get their homes rebuilt quickly, but she does. Cool. Real noisy, but cool. I like it. The local angels won't, and it's just asking for a hitsquad of Gaby, but you could get some pretty cool tricks there. (If you can get the billion dollars, of course.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 12:59:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> About the four horsemen of the Apocalypse... On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Dennis C Hwang wrote: > Anyone interested in a writeup for Archangel Azrael? > (Appears as a perky young black-clad Goth girl? :) I'm working on it, though her name is Suriel and she's a Kyriotate. All I have to do is work out her Distinctions and Rites. - -- Casca (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 16:41:55 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Night Music: "...a skill known at Level 6 or better..." On Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:50:15 -0400, johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) wrote: >> What if skill #1 led to their Fate and skill #2 was their path to Destiny, >> or vice versa? Some people who have done leading edge research on projects >> such as the Manhattan Project have changed the course of their studies >> radically because of their experience. ... > > Heh. 'top-notch' could very well be skill 6 and a good >characteristic. Allowing people to change involves complications >that would add more headaches than usefulness to the game, IMO. >Fer example, if you write up a character that is going from one >'best thing' to another, do you put one with a bullet and the >other with a down arrow? "Medicine has risen two places >on our charts since last Tuesday, displacing Chemical Warfare, >and new on our charts: Psychology!") =) Of course, it depends on how the GM runs the campaign. If it were run in an epic long-term fashion, one might see the target NPC change skills over a decade as he's buffeted by Celestial interventions. I think just allowing one skill (possibly in related forms) go over 6 will handle things. If the GM wants to drop one skill to raise another, presumably he'll have good story reasons. >> The trouble I have with a hard and fast rule like this (though I'm usually >> in favor of bright-line rules) is that if you know French, say, you've got >> a huge head start on Italian or Spanish--the other Romance Languages. It >> may help you a touch with German, but it doesn't help much at all with >> Japanese, which has basically no common ground with the Indo-European >> languages. I think this is one to toss back in the GM's court. > > Dat's cool with me. I _trust_ most GM's to figure these things >out. The reason I applied the bonus universally is that a person who >is good with languages, really does learn the next language easier >no matter which one it is. Intensive study of languages/linguistics >gives you some meta-language structures that your original language >probably didn't have. (i.e. Someone who has gone through the process >of learning another language to OVER 6, has learned things about >languages in general, plus has added concepts to their 'world-view' >that their original language didn't have.) I think the classic example of this is a Swiss who learns German, French, Italian, and probably English just to start. With that knowledge base, Spanish, Dutch, Latin, Greek and probably some others are easy because of they have so many common words with languages already known. But that still doesn't help much with Chinese. I has a Swiss boss at one point. He spoke excellent English 99% of the time, but occasionally he's slip in a metaphor either from another language or mixed among languages. He used to talk about "bell-cows," the cows that lead the other cows around, applying it to getting our products known by the bell-cows of the industry. In one very serious, very critical reorganization meeting, he told us, the company bell-cows :), about the reorganization, then swore us to secrecy so no rumors would get started until the whole reorganization was announced. He gravely asked us to all to, "Sit on your faces about this." We kept straight faces for about three seconds, then *completely* lost it... IAC, it sounds like what we have is about (with an addition for soldiers): Humans can learn one skill at up to level 9. This reflects a greatly gifted individual. Variants of the same skill may also be known at a very high level, for example, knowledge (biochemistry) and knowledge (genetics). This requires GM approval. These rules reflect exceptional humans (or animals) that are especially in tune with the Symphony, even if they may still be unaware of it unconsciously. This ability does not apply to Celestials: though they can hear the Symphony, they are essentially outside observers of it. Soldiers, too, are likely to be too conscious of the Symphony to gain these high skills once they become aware of the Symphony consciously. The GM should consider not applying default skill penalties when the character knows a closely related skill, especially at a high level. For example, if the PC knows Ranged Weapon-pistol/6, the GM might waive the -2 default if the PC tries to use a rifle. The GM should also consider whether knowledge of one specialty would give a head start to study of a related specialty. For example, in the previous example, the GM might rule that the first point spent to learn Ranged Weapon-rifle would confer Ranged Weapon- rifle/3 due to expertise applicable from Ranged Weapon-pistol/6. This is entirely at GM discretion. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:03:03 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Falling in Strange Ways Nathanial suggests; > But there is a third type of Falling (and Redemption), too. It does > These Celestials change sides intentionally, and in doing so, keep > their Choir or Band resonance. I do like the idea, but I don't think it quite works, in the long term. In the SHORT term, I can see where a Celestial looking to join the other side might make or receive contact and receive encouragement and aid in exchange for a few little `tests' of their interest (eg. double agent work...) - during which you'd have a Choir working for evil or a Band working for good. In the LONG run, unfortunately, they can't change sides without changing Hearts...and THAT requires a change of Resonance. In my view, Celestials were very specifically designed with the Fall in mind, and for very good reasons, the Bands are strictly demonic and the Choirs strictly Angelic... Renegades and Outcasts can, to a certain extent, work for the opposite side without having to change Resonance, but they'll be of limited use/acceptance for their inability to go to `HQ', and personally, I don't believe they can take Superior Attunements from the other side. ['Course, in my view of the world, Bright Lilim are specifically coveted because they DON'T change Resonance and CAN support Attunements from both sides simultaneously...] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 19:01:13 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: IN> Homosexuality in In Nomine On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Colin Fredericks wrote: > >From: Colin Fredericks > >Unfortunately that arguement supports teh Idea that god wants angels to > >fall or he would have made them all malakim. > That's exactly right on both counts. 10 points for you. :) > As I've said before: if God really created angels and the universe, > then we can't guess at his plan anyway. If God didn't create everything > (which seems to be cannon), then they have those tendencies on their own > anyway. It's just a question of how you run your game, and whether your > Creator is omnipotent and omniscient. Maybe God did plan on having some > angels fall (read the stuff about the Grigori and Free Will). Hi, I'm new here, but here's my comment. If any of you have read Season of Mists by Gaiman, you will find some theories on this. Lucifer suspects that the Fall was part of the great plan in the first place. IMO this is supported in IN, since heaven has no meaning without heaven. Its a common duality theory. Evil cannot exist without Good. Vica versa. IF God is omnipotent and created everything then Hell should be part of the plan. I dont see that this contradicts canon. However you have the possibility of God having rewritten reality as stated in the Marches section of IN Nomine. Some Ethereal beings maintain this, but as far as I know no official truth is given, which is IMO a good thing, since that leaves the choice for the individiual GM. However, it is quite clear that God created angels. Thus he should have been able to predict their fall and this should therefore IMO be part of his plan. Evil must exist for Man to have a free will. If not, he cannot choose evil and thus he doesn't really have free will. Ofcourse you can disregard this as something the humans believe in to make themselves feel important, but I've always felt that humans are important in IN Nomine. Maybe some of the angels disagree with me, but I think the celestials exist primarily because of the Humans. Haavard. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:25:10 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Really Bad Perception rolls. At 6:41 AM -0400 9/11/97, Adam Canning wrote: >Message text written by INTERNET:in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >> They fluffed Perception rolls at *PLUS SIX*???? >These are *angels*????< > >The Seraph of Micheal has perception 4 and rolled an 11, The Offanim [Jean >and Janus] both rolled 666. What can I say. Oh. Dear. Um. Yeah. Um. I hope Amanda's having fun with them. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:23:45 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Beth of the Archives At 8:39 AM -0400 9/11/97, Jens H. Kruuse wrote: >Whilst thinking about the choir for the so-called Archangel Beth, I >suddenly came to the realization that she is not an Archangel at all! (Am too! Just look at my license plate: ARCNGL ! ) >I believe she is in fact: > >Beth, Angel of Archives >Mistress of Divine Knowledge(Seraphim) >Mercurian of Destiny But I'm not pacifist enough to be Mercurian! Kyrio, maybe... And I don't tell the truth as fanatically as a Seraph. >She is definitely a "Friend of Man" and she is helping All_of_Us for >nothing! Not one of us at a time for something. There goes the Bright >Lilim (unless someone will testify to a coerced help). Coerced? That's the thing about being Bright -- they lose the one-for-one trade fanaticism of their dark sisters. Besides, just because I haven't called in the Geasa doesn't mean that I don't have them. >I'm afraid the Aura has persuaded some people to grant her AA status but >her word, Archives, is in no way big enough for that. (And you think "Flowers" is a big word?) Whatever, whatever... But look at my new .sig... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:43:25 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> About the four horsemen of the Apocalypse... At 3:54 PM -0400 9/10/97, MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: >I think they are actually Angels, probably of Dominic. I wish I had a bible >with me, but the quote goes something like: > > ...and when I heard the fourth trumpet, behold, [...] > And they were unleashed to punish the world... > >Obviously, this is just off the top of my head, but I'm fairly sure it's >close. No mention of *what* these guys are, but the implications of the rest >of the passage are that they are on God's side, and being held back for the >"special circumstances" of the last day. Habbalah. Punishing the world... (And Habbalah are *too* angels! Just ask them...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:38:53 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Dissonance, Discord, and Falling At 12:24 AM -0400 9/11/97, Stacy Stroud wrote: >>From Karakash: > >>The thing is that a Malakite can look at one of Dominic's servants >>and say, "Look *hack wheeze!*, I can't Fall, so go off and play somewhere, >>alright?" The typical angel with over 6 points of Discord is just >>_asking_ for an inquisition... > >So it's widely known in Heaven that Malakim literally *can't* Fall? Yes. They just gain Discord. p. 5 of The Marches has Kronos and Baal wondering why... >The rulebook seems to imply that within the IN universe, Malakim don't Fall >because someone (either Dominic's people or their fellow Malakim) >*extinguishes* them before they can so dishonor their Choir. That too. It would seem to be a belt-and-suspenders approach. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 19:25:52 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: Geas Entrapment (Re: IN> Lilith's Potence) On Wed, 10 Sep 1997 20:11:32 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >>Don't use those pointy D&D dice; use the boxy ones with the dots on them! > >Yeah, but they keep coming up all the same. Take then out of the box. ;) >>>(Until the expanded Lilim rules are published.) >> >>Can you say when and where? > >In the Revelations cycle. So, later this year. >>I was thinking of a case where the Lilim essentially has the victim >>trapped, ensuring no alternate Need-filler. > >There is never perfection on the corporeal plane... (Hey, >if deathtraps worked, would heros escape them so often?) What if the Lilim *is* the hero? >If a Lilim was willing to look for the thread of Need in the >symphony and grab it as soon as she found it, I'd use a random >check digit. If a GM doesn't like that (and I can see that one), >then I'd go for an *additional* penalty, equal to the Geas-level >she was looking for. That's a pretty easy deal you're offering. A Lil with Perception 12 would get a 6 target for a Geas/6; an 8 if she'd touching the victim. And she doesn't get disonance for looking and not finding. You know, while you're rewriting Geas rules (I hope you're still writing), is it reasonable, even in a cinematic campaign that a person has a equal chance of 1-6 level Needs? At most I have a few level 1 wants, not Needs. Maybe the roll should be like a Dissonance Roll: you roll 3d6 and the lowest die is the Need. Of course, that would be for J. Random Mortal on the street. If the Lil does some detective work, she can find a way to find some NPC that has a Need at a high level, courtesy of the GM. > Being able to find *specific* needs *is* a >powerful ability, and shouldn't be trivial. Being able to find a >specific Need/6 is *way* too evil to be easy! Unfortunately, it is easy if entrapment is allowed. >>So, the smart Lilim will have the room bugged, and only go in once the >>victim is screaming in pain. > >Going to take a while to work up to this deathtrap spa here, you >know... I wonder how many favors she had to pledge to Vapula & company >for all this. Let's see: some of those old steam cabinets, maybe a few hundred a piece; and how much are those baby monitors? ;) >>Since the Lilim of Lust is willing, it's obviously the easiest Need to >>satisfy: The Lilim is willing and available. Geas/1 or /2 if he Needs that >>much. :) > >It also depends on how hard the person thinks it would be to talk the >cutie into bed with him. If he thinks she'd take a year of wooing... I read the section as the *actual* difficulty, not his perception of the difficulty. YMMV >>I keep telling you, it's those pointy dice you're using! > >Is not. It's the Discord - Bad Dice/3 I've got. Your three dice haven't gotten stuck together in all the Eastern humidity, have they? That'll do it... :) >>Yeah, I GM shouldn't let a player get away with a Geas factory, but it's >>easier for the GMs if the rules don't seem to bless such abuses. > > As Karakash sorta said, if we wanted to make a rule for >every little thing (and this is a little thing, really), then it'd >be in GURPS... Well, since you're rewriting Lilim rules anyway... >>You're right--too much email. I wish the Superiors would get off their >>rears and bless that. It seems like a slam dunk to me. > >Not really -- I've been thinking on the mechanics of how to work >it, and I'm not sure... For instance, if it's a Will to Will contest, >should the level of the Geas still subtract? Should it subtract from >the check digit? ( NO WAY!) Besides, it starts turning into >Too Many Rolls. :-p I'm not following: I was thinking of the sensing rolls on Perception and the doing rolls on Will. That's independent of any resistance roll rules. >>Well, as long as you make a little noise at a time, it's not that hard to >>secure an area to make sure it's impossible for the disturbance to be >>heard. > >How? Be in the middle of a wasteland? That's going to look odd, and >the next thing you know, the place is crawling (literally) with Kyrios >of Jean. Assuming a super perceptive Celestial with 6 Corporeal Forces, the Basic Distance is 6+disturbance yards. For 3 disturbance, 10 yds. A warehouse can probably knock that Celestial's perception of 12 to a 6; A big building or an empty field or parking lot could knock it down to zero. >>I was thinking of the old-style cabinets where your head sticks out, not a >>sauna or a walk in steam bath. Maybe I've been watching too many Agatha >>Christie mysteries set in the '20s and '30s. > >Waaaaaaaaaay too many of those! Hm. If the person knew that the Lilim >were responsible, I might give bonuses to Will to resist the Geas, or make >the Geas level lower. "Oh! What a horrible accident! The lock stuck! Oh, my, I'll have that checked at once!" >This doesn't matter much with the Lilith thing, since a Superior >will quash a PC's will any day of the week, but it might to a PC >one. Just an unofficial "as a GM" thing, though. I'm not following you here. >>Maybe she gives them to Lilith for safe-keeping--Lilith charging interest, >>of course. > >Serious interest. Lilith's not going to hang onto one of those for nuttin'... >(Due to the ruling from On High that Geasa cannot be traded, I figure >it's as much hassle for Lilith to *accept* a Geas-token from a Lilim >as it would be for her to remove Discord.) Really? That's canonical now? I missed that if it was on the list. >>"Honest Mr. AA, I'd love to terminate those 50 Geas/6's for you, but Lilith >>has them all! I can get back some for you, but none if you kill me. I'll >>Geas myself to release some if you let me go. Did you have any particular >>ones in mind?" (Might as well gain some information while we're at it!) > >"All of them. Or I just kill you and keep you from doing this. If I >make a good Example, then your sisters will think twice about it... >Think your Mother'll protect you? Why should she? She'll be holding >those Geases free and clear with you turned into a Remnant..." "What makes you think I'm going Celestial for you? I can buy a new vessel." >>True. Still, the Lilim is offering, not entrapping. > >Explain to me the difference between "Look, I am a drool-worthy >babe, you Need me" and "Dark Desire that guy for me, Joe of Lust." As I said, I'd rule that satisfying a Dark Desire Need would Geas Joe of Lust--it's his Need, ultimately, not the victim's. Remember the part of the faq that says this isn't one of those humans-are-helpless-pawns games? :) >>That still represents a significant investment of time by the Lilim and the >>consent of the victim. The problem with the Geas factory is that it takes >>little time and no real consent of the victim. > > Okay, so we get a Geas/1 on 6 people a day, and then another >on them the next day, and... ...and if you don't manage to find the same person several days, you've just got a bunch of piddling Geas/1's. >>>So you object to brothels of Lust? >> >>Consent. > >Dark Desire? Drugs? Balseraphs? (You want her, you know you do.) >Impudites? Seduction/6 & Seduction/6 Talisman? I personally wouldn't allow it. The Need IMHO has to be an actual, real Need, not one cooked up somehow. A Symphonically pure Need, if you will. He has to Need it, not just be deluded or tricked into thinking he needs it. Sure, if he's a drug addict, he's fair game once he's an addict by himself, and not with some demon pushing him along with a pitchfork. >>If it's enough work, I might agree with you. But let's suppose a Lilim of >>Belial does some piddliing Geas/1 favor for Bill Gates. She Geases him to >>write her a check for a billion dollars, a trivial amount for BG, and >>remember that he gets hit hourly if he doesn't do it. >> >>Now that she has all that money, she starts burning down the homes of >>people she wants Geases on. Most people don't have the insurance or cash to >>get their homes rebuilt quickly, but she does. > >Cool. Real noisy, but cool. I like it. The local angels won't, >and it's just asking for a hitsquad of Gaby, but you could get >some pretty cool tricks there. Not noisy if she can Geas someone to set the fires or has a servant to do so. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #336 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.