From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Sep 11 23:39:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA03475 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 23:39:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id XAA14484 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 23:25:56 -0500 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 23:25:56 -0500 Message-Id: <199709120425.XAA14484@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #337 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, September 11 1997 Volume 01 : Number 337 In this digest: Re: IN> Beth of the Archives Re: Geas Entrapment (Re: IN> Lilith's Potence) Re: IN> [HUMOR] Archangel of Grease (Long) Re: IN> Homosexuality in In Nomine Re: IN> Beth of the Archives Re: Geas Entrapment (Re: IN> Lilith's Potence) IN> Cola and backrubs - just the beginning Re: IN> About the four horsemen of the Apocalypse... Re: IN> Beth of the Archives Re: IN> Beth of the Archives RE: IN> About the four horsemen of the Apocalypse... Re: IN> Really Bad Perception Rolls Re: IN> Lilim Again Re: IN> About the four horsemen of the Apocalypse... IN> [HUMOR] Archangel of Grease (Long) Re: IN> Beth of the Archives RE: IN> About the four horsemen of the Apocalypse... IN> Superior Intervention IN> Fate vs. Destiny Skills IN> Lilim Geas Entrapment Re: IN> Dissonance, Discord, and Falling Re: Geas Entrapment (Re: IN> Lilith's Potence) Re: IN> Yves: Mechanics ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 16:32:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Starcrossed Subject: Re: IN> Beth of the Archives [snip] > Whatever, whatever... But look at my new .sig... > > --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor Oh, *yeah*! Congratulations! How did this come about? Did Moriah Fall? ;) - -- John Trussell truss@gweep.net (Finally getting his life sorted enough to actively rejoin in-nomine-l) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:07:04 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: Geas Entrapment (Re: IN> Lilith's Potence) >>>And how is it she's Evil if she's >>> curing people? She'd only be Evil if she used the Geases for something >>> Evil. >> >> Her intentions on getting the Geases are evil (self-serving, >>at the very least and more likely in service to Hell). > >And she's a demon. A Malekite of Laurence is *not* going to hang around >and discuss things with a demon. He's going to chop her. > And, if she reforms around her heart and walks next door to Laurance's Cathedral to complain, then the Malakite will humbly apologize. Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:29:08 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> [HUMOR] Archangel of Grease (Long) >Frankie >Archangel of Grease > I *love* this one. I wonder if Walt will let this one into our campaign.... Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:52:12 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> Homosexuality in In Nomine At 10:24 AM 9/10/97 -0400, you wrote: >I hope this hasn't been done to death on the list before I joined. But I was >wondering what people's opinions were on the "status" ( I guess that would >be the word) of homosexuality and homosexuals in the In Nomine universe. Is >it a great sin among the angelic side, accepted, just not considered >important? This comes up as a player in my game wants to play a Soilder that >happens to be a homosexual. > For Celestials, I think that the question is irrelevant. What sex is the Celestial form of a Kyriotate or an Ofanim? As far as they view it among mortals, I think that it depends on the Superior. I think that aside from, maybe, Laurance and Dominic, they just don't care. Also demons are probably neutral on it but they probably favor positions against it. Malphas probably advocates groups "against it" just because it creates factions. Andre also likes the bad press since it means that people will be more likely to act on it out of lust than love. Kronos likes it being "bad" since if someone thinks it's wrong and does it anyway, it makes them more likely to move toward their fate. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 17:27:01 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Beth of the Archives At 4:32 PM -0400 9/11/97, Starcrossed wrote: >[snip] > >> Whatever, whatever... But look at my new .sig... >> >> --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor > >Oh, *yeah*! Congratulations! > >How did this come about? Did Moriah Fall? ;) Terribly sorry, but that information is above your clearance level -- the transcripts for that Council meeting are in the Restricted Stacks. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 17:13:20 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Geas Entrapment (Re: IN> Lilith's Potence) At 7:25 PM +0000 9/11/97, Walt Mazur wrote: >On Wed, 10 Sep 1997 20:11:32 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy > wrote: > >>>Don't use those pointy D&D dice; use the boxy ones with the dots on them! >> >>Yeah, but they keep coming up all the same. > > Take then out of the box. ;) I do. I have a Discord: Rolls Badly On Dice... >>>>(Until the expanded Lilim rules are published.) >>In the Revelations cycle. > >So, later this year. Yes. >>>I was thinking of a case where the Lilim essentially has the victim >>>trapped, ensuring no alternate Need-filler. >> >>There is never perfection on the corporeal plane... (Hey, >>if deathtraps worked, would heros escape them so often?) > >What if the Lilim *is* the hero? Heros don't rely on deathtraps -- they fail all the time... >>If a Lilim was willing to look for the thread of Need in the >>symphony and grab it as soon as she found it, I'd use a random >>check digit. If a GM doesn't like that (and I can see that one), >>then I'd go for an *additional* penalty, equal to the Geas-level >>she was looking for. > >That's a pretty easy deal you're offering. A Lil with Perception 12 would >get a 6 target for a Geas/6; an 8 if she'd touching the victim. And she >doesn't get disonance for looking and not finding. No, she's have a 4 target (-2 for a specific need, -6 for the level she wanted). If she's touching, then she will probably find some levels of needs that add up to 8. And she doesn't get dissonance for looking and not finding. >You know, while you're rewriting Geas rules (I hope you're still writing), >is it reasonable, even in a cinematic campaign that a person has a equal >chance of 1-6 level Needs? It's up to the GM -- I think that's already been mentioned somewhere, that there might not be something that high. I can look at the stuff and see if a sentence of "If the GM thinks there aren't any Needs of that high a level, he may give the Lilim the highest the person has, or a selection of smaller ones." would fit. >> Being able to find *specific* needs *is* a >>powerful ability, and shouldn't be trivial. Being able to find a >>specific Need/6 is *way* too evil to be easy! > >Unfortunately, it is easy if entrapment is allowed. Shoot it. >>>So, the smart Lilim will have the room bugged, and only go in once the >>>victim is screaming in pain. >> >>Going to take a while to work up to this deathtrap spa here, you >>know... I wonder how many favors she had to pledge to Vapula & company >>for all this. > >Let's see: some of those old steam cabinets, maybe a few hundred a piece; >and how much are those baby monitors? ;) And the establishment, and payments for the safety-reg things... Oh, and you can only Geas someone to do something of the level of the Geas -- more expanded stuff, I fear. If it's a "life-threatening" task (such as coming back to a spa where he nearly died!) it *takes* a Geas/6 to get him there. So you can Geas-factory if you want, but you have to keep using that Geas/6 to get him coming back -- and that doesn't include any sort of "Don't tell anyone that you nearly died here" Geases. >>>I keep telling you, it's those pointy dice you're using! >> >>Is not. It's the Discord - Bad Dice/3 I've got. > >Your three dice haven't gotten stuck together in all the Eastern humidity, >have they? That'll do it... :) Noooooo, I just have a tendency to roll... interestingly. >>>Yeah, I GM shouldn't let a player get away with a Geas factory, but it's >>>easier for the GMs if the rules don't seem to bless such abuses. >> >> As Karakash sorta said, if we wanted to make a rule for >>every little thing (and this is a little thing, really), then it'd >>be in GURPS... > >Well, since you're rewriting Lilim rules anyway... Hah. I'm not going to put in fifteen jillion rules to patch every little thing. I *tried* that, and got "If we wanted it to be complex, we'd have written it in GURPS." When God speaks, wise Archangels listen. >>>You're right--too much email. I wish the Superiors would get off their >>>rears and bless that. It seems like a slam dunk to me. >> >>Not really -- I've been thinking on the mechanics of how to work >>it, and I'm not sure... For instance, if it's a Will to Will contest, >>should the level of the Geas still subtract? Should it subtract from >>the check digit? ( NO WAY!) Besides, it starts turning into >>Too Many Rolls. :-p > >I'm not following: I was thinking of the sensing rolls on Perception and >the doing rolls on Will. That's independent of any resistance roll rules. Right. Here's the current way it works: Lilim rolls Perception, spots Need. Later, Lilim invokes Geas, rolls nothing. Victim rolls Will minus Geas-level to resist. If you split it into Perception/Will, it would work: Lilim rolls Perception, spots Need. Lilim rolls Will, invokes Geas (does the Geas vanish if she fails the Will roll? Does she just not get to use her resonance for CD hours? Does she get dissonance here if she fails? Fails w/ a CD of 6?). Victim rolls Will (minus Geas-level?) to resist. The second way is more complicated. Icky. >>>Well, as long as you make a little noise at a time, it's not that hard to >>>secure an area to make sure it's impossible for the disturbance to be >>>heard. >> >>How? Be in the middle of a wasteland? That's going to look odd, and >>the next thing you know, the place is crawling (literally) with Kyrios >>of Jean. > >Assuming a super perceptive Celestial with 6 Corporeal Forces, the Basic >Distance is 6+disturbance yards. For 3 disturbance, 10 yds. A warehouse can >probably knock that Celestial's perception of 12 to a 6; A big building or >an empty field or parking lot could knock it down to zero. 6 Celestial Forces, right? For a 12 Perception. Disturbance 3. (3 x 6 = 12 yards Base Range To Detect) With Perception 12, this would be (3+12) to detect. Autosuccess. At 24 yards, it's (3+12-1=14). Autosuccess. At 36 yards, it's (3+12-2=13). Autosuccess. At 48 yards, it's (3+12-3=12). Autosuccess. At 60 yards, it's (3+12-4=11). TN is 11. At 72 yards, TN is 10. At 84 yards, TN is 9. At 96 yards, TN is 8. At 108 yards, TN is 7... How big does that warehouse need to be? >>>I was thinking of the old-style cabinets where your head sticks out, not a >>>sauna or a walk in steam bath. Maybe I've been watching too many Agatha >>>Christie mysteries set in the '20s and '30s. >> >>Waaaaaaaaaay too many of those! Hm. If the person knew that the Lilim >>were responsible, I might give bonuses to Will to resist the Geas, or make >>the Geas level lower. > >"Oh! What a horrible accident! The lock stuck! Oh, my, I'll have that >checked at once!" That only works once... >>>Maybe she gives them to Lilith for safe-keeping--Lilith charging interest, >>>of course. >> >>Serious interest. Lilith's not going to hang onto one of those for nuttin'... >>(Due to the ruling from On High that Geasa cannot be traded, I figure >>it's as much hassle for Lilith to *accept* a Geas-token from a Lilim >>as it would be for her to remove Discord.) > >Really? That's canonical now? I missed that if it was on the list. Karakash mentioned it, yes. It's canon. Lilim cannot trade Geases. They can *promise* "I'll only invoke this Geas the way you tell me to" to someone, or use a Geas to get a sister to invoke a Geas to your specifics. But you can't trade 'em anymore. >>>"Honest Mr. AA, I'd love to terminate those 50 Geas/6's for you, but Lilith >>>has them all! I can get back some for you, but none if you kill me. I'll >>>Geas myself to release some if you let me go. Did you have any particular >>>ones in mind?" (Might as well gain some information while we're at it!) >> >>"All of them. Or I just kill you and keep you from doing this. If I >>make a good Example, then your sisters will think twice about it... >>Think your Mother'll protect you? Why should she? She'll be holding >>those Geases free and clear with you turned into a Remnant..." > >"What makes you think I'm going Celestial for you? I can buy a new vessel." "What makes you think that I can't grab you while you're slipping out of your dead vessel, heading to Hell in Trauma?" >>>True. Still, the Lilim is offering, not entrapping. >> >>Explain to me the difference between "Look, I am a drool-worthy >>babe, you Need me" and "Dark Desire that guy for me, Joe of Lust." > >As I said, I'd rule that satisfying a Dark Desire Need would Geas Joe of >Lust--it's his Need, ultimately, not the victim's. Remember the part of the >faq that says this isn't one of those humans-are-helpless-pawns games? :) Okay, so slip some mortal aphrodisiac in, or instill a post-hypnotic suggestion of "That babe is really cute, you want her." >>>That still represents a significant investment of time by the Lilim and the >>>consent of the victim. The problem with the Geas factory is that it takes >>>little time and no real consent of the victim. >> >> Okay, so we get a Geas/1 on 6 people a day, and then another >>on them the next day, and... > >...and if you don't manage to find the same person several days, you've >just got a bunch of piddling Geas/1's. This is why you get a Brothel, where they come to you... >I personally wouldn't allow it. The Need IMHO has to be an actual, real >Need, not one cooked up somehow. A Symphonically pure Need, if you will. He >has to Need it, not just be deluded or tricked into thinking he needs it. >Sure, if he's a drug addict, he's fair game once he's an addict by himself, >and not with some demon pushing him along with a pitchfork. That's a better one, then -- the drug-pushing Lilim of Fleurity. >>>If it's enough work, I might agree with you. But let's suppose a Lilim of >>>Belial does some piddliing Geas/1 favor for Bill Gates. She Geases him to >>>write her a check for a billion dollars, a trivial amount for BG, and >>>remember that he gets hit hourly if he doesn't do it. >>> >>>Now that she has all that money, she starts burning down the homes of >>>people she wants Geases on. Most people don't have the insurance or cash to >>>get their homes rebuilt quickly, but she does. >> >>Cool. Real noisy, but cool. I like it. The local angels won't, >>and it's just asking for a hitsquad of Gaby, but you could get >>some pretty cool tricks there. > >Not noisy if she can Geas someone to set the fires or has a servant to do >so. Even cooler. Definitely asking for a hitsquad of Fire-angels, but they'll have some problems tracking her down. I like her. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 17:30:27 -0500 From: Colin Fredericks Subject: IN> Cola and backrubs - just the beginning Hail. I made something up in my free time last week. Unfortunately, due to having *none* of it this week, I haven't been able to post it until now. So here's my variation on the Angels and their Colas and the Demons and their Backrubs. Tell me how accurate you think these are. :) Stay Cool; -Sir Colin Archangels and Poker Blandine dreams of winning, but her dream rarely comes true. Chris isn't allowed to play because he always want to play "just for fun." Dave always wants to play teams. Dom isn't invited. Too stuffy, never bluffs. Eli is one of the better players, and he always brings the chips and pretzels. Gabe gets pissed off, bluffs too much, and storms away. Janus has a bad tendency to deal from the bottom of the deck. Wins often. Jean always plays the odds. Decent player. Jordi doesn't play. Larry plays often, bluffs poorly, and loses often. Too predictable. Marc just watches because a: poker's against his Word, and b: he'd always win. Mike's hand always beat's Larry's. Novalis is way too nice to take anyone's money. Yves just watches with Marc and gives advice. He'd always win too. Demon Princes and baking Andrealphus likes pastries in the shape of... um, yeah. Asmodeus stares over everyone's shoulder, making sure the follow the recipe. Baal has his officers cook for him. Beleth is afraid of the oven. And the dough, and the mixer, and the.... Belial makes very, very burnt cookies. Fleurty bakes marijuana brownies, of course. Haagenti doesn't bake. He eats raw cookie dough by the ton. Kobal thinks exploding pastries kick ass. He shares in Valfepor's horde (his idea). Kronos confuses everyone so that they forget and burn the food. Lilith only bakes for favors. Malphas tries to convince everyone they want different kinds of cookie. Nybbas uses lots and lots of frosting. Saminga sees food of any kind as a foolish delay of the inevitable. Vapula is always fiddling with the oven. Valfepor has a secret horde of all the vanilla extract in Hell. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 17:34:30 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> About the four horsemen of the Apocalypse... > >> I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then > >> I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like > >> thunder, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a white > >> horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he > >> rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest. > > > >Baal, probably. AKA Conquest. > > So why would he let someone else be War? Mebbe Asmodeus... Because he didn't write it? The writers of the Bible have been wrong on a couple of things, from the IN perspective. Being off on a demon's Word is relatively small. > >> When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living > >> creature say, "Come!" Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. > >> Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to > >> make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword. > > > >Belial, especially given the description of the horse. AKA War. > > Nah. Baal. Baal's Word may be War, but it isn't the senseless violence that Belial works for - it is cold, calculated violence. Conquest fits him better. > >> When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living > >> creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black > >> horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. Then > >> I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living > >> creatures, saying, "A quart of wheat for a day's wages, [2] and > >> three quarts of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the > >> oil and the wine!" > > > >Huh? I assume that this is Pestilence, but this reference is > >somewhat obscure... > > No, this is Famine. Okay, yup. Duh... > Guess who ;> Well, Haggenti fits it best, in a cause-effect way. Or maybe some other unnamed Prince (who is probably a good friend of Haggenti). Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com The society which scorns excellence in plumbing as a humble activity and tolerates shoddiness in philosophy because it is an exalted activity will have neither good plumbing nor good philosophy ... neither its pipes nor its theories will hold water." - Fortune Daemon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 17:34:30 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Beth of the Archives > >Whilst thinking about the choir for the so-called Archangel Beth, I > >suddenly came to the realization that she is not an Archangel at all! > > (Am too! Just look at my license plate: ARCNGL ! ) The fact that the car is completely white, and just the thing you would think to see an unassuming angel driving, fits perfectly. > >I'm afraid the Aura has persuaded some people to grant her AA > >status but her word, Archives, is in no way big enough for that. > > (And you think "Flowers" is a big word?) I think Novalis was put in there to be a "goody-two-shoes", not because she had any real justification. > Whatever, whatever... But look at my new .sig... > > --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor Hey, congrats! Of course, you do realize this makes you the automatic target of tons of email. So what powers do you have, now? (I got a vague sense from Kromm of what a Line Editor does, but...) Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com The society which scorns excellence in plumbing as a humble activity and tolerates shoddiness in philosophy because it is an exalted activity will have neither good plumbing nor good philosophy ... neither its pipes nor its theories will hold water." - Fortune Daemon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:21:07 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Beth of the Archives At 5:34 PM +0000 9/11/97, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: >> >Whilst thinking about the choir for the so-called Archangel Beth, I >> >suddenly came to the realization that she is not an Archangel at all! >> >> (Am too! Just look at my license plate: ARCNGL ! ) > >The fact that the car is completely white, and just the thing you >would think to see an unassuming angel driving, fits perfectly. It is *NOT* a white car! It's silver. (My poor Graymist car, being called white... *sniffle*) Don't you know white cars cause brain damage? (And the car bfore her was smooth black. Same plate.) >> >I'm afraid the Aura has persuaded some people to grant her AA >> >status but her word, Archives, is in no way big enough for that. >> >> (And you think "Flowers" is a big word?) > >I think Novalis was put in there to be a "goody-two-shoes", not >because she had any real justification. Hey, she's got to have *some* political savvy... >> Whatever, whatever... But look at my new .sig... >> --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor > >Hey, congrats! Of course, you do realize this makes you the >automatic target of tons of email. This is different from my normal operations? >So what powers do you have, now? (I got a vague sense from Kromm of >what a Line Editor does, but...) Pen-Penultimate power. Eventually, I get power over the list, apparently, but I haven't gotten any instructions about that yet. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:15:00 -0700 From: Ben Goetter Subject: RE: IN> About the four horsemen of the Apocalypse... I agree with Mark. Revelations 6:1 and 6:8 describe the Horsemen as being unleashed by God to punish the world, which seems to me Angelic: "And power was given over them to punish the fourth part of the world." (KJV) Servitors of Judgement, absolutely. Still, who are you going to believe: some smelly, unwashed desert prophet, or Neil Gaiman, who depicts them as villains, if not demons proper? More fun to make them demons. From: Earl Wajenberg > Anyway, the black horseman is traditionally identified as Famine, [...] > In modern terms, the black horseman might be generalized as > Economic Disaster. > I can't think of a current demon prince who matches really well. Perhaps because 'Famine' or (to a lesser extent) 'Economic Disaster' is almost a natural catastrophe - an Act of God, if you will. I don't see any DP as holding the word of Famine; it'd almost be like holding Flood, or Volcanoes. Saminga pretentiously sponsors a duchy for Disease; perhaps he'd be willing to sponsor Famine, too. I'd instead prefer to align this with a demon prince that encourages the root human cause of the catastrophe (Central Economic Planning?). Perhaps a servitor of Valefor, holding the Word of Famine (through Fraud/Embezzlement). Imagine the fate of Red Cross shipments to Liberia. > Haagenti is the only one who comes to mind, but he's really at > the opposite pole. I would finger Haagenti if the black horseman were "Cult dieting," the other face of Haagenti's Word - an Aristotelian approach to the sin of Gluttony, embracing both gorging and purging - or if the global famine were due to hoarding and wasting. Haagenti can get involved only though personal incontinence or excess on the part of some sinner. To consume can be to destroy. There's a lot of overlap between Haagenti and Belial, which might explain some of their rivalry. The more I think about this, the more I could see all of the Horsemen as being servitors of Belial, or at least in the temporary service of Belial. Better veer away from that - boring. Speaking of, I no longer favor Belial (or his servitor) as the rider of the red horse. Malphas is the Prince who incites the mob. So, to beat this horse(man) completely to death, I get: White horse: Servitor of Baal, inciting war among the great nation-states. Red horse: Servitor of Malphas, inciting mob violence and fratricide. Black horse: Servitor of Valefor, inciting famine and global economic collapse. Pale horse: Servitor of Saminga, ensuring that the ensuing deaths are painful, fear-wracked deaths. Gets to cull 25% of the earth's population. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:21:19 -0400 (EDT) From: "Michael C. Nutt" Subject: Re: IN> Really Bad Perception Rolls >> They fluffed Perception rolls at *PLUS SIX*???? >>These are *angels*????< > >The Seraph of Micheal has perception 4 and rolled an 11, The Offanim [Jean >and Janus] both rolled 666. What can I say. A Seraph, with a Perception of *4*???? Let's keep him off used-car lots, or he'll get laughed right out of the next Seraphim Council meeting . Seriously, though, I'd have to look hard at a character that was that obviously focused on "other stuff" for strong signs of munchkinism. I mean, fer gossakes, his entire Resonance is based on Perception... and with a Perception that far down the bell curve, it's not going to be very useful at all to him. I'm guessing the character probably only took 2 Celestial Forces, right? Michael ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 97 19:04 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Again >At 6:57 PM -0400 9/10/97, Walter Milliken wrote: >>>Right -- and then there's this list of what *I've* gotten... >> >>>"A student." (Malakite of War, don't ask; a Level 6!) >> >>Actually that one was more like "A worthy student to be my successor" or >>something like that. > >Close-a-bloody-nuff'. Got even worse when she got told he was >a Malakite... (Meets Gaby one day, gets a favorable reaction (by >the skin of the dice's teeth!); meets the MoW the next, and *he* >gets a favorable reaction to her. Oiy.) And a low check digit. Good thing she'd been a good girl for the last month or so.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 16:09:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Dennis C Hwang Subject: Re: IN> About the four horsemen of the Apocalypse... On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Casca wrote: > On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Dennis C Hwang wrote: > > > Anyone interested in a writeup for Archangel Azrael? > > (Appears as a perky young black-clad Goth girl? :) > > I'm working on it, though her name is Suriel and she's a Kyriotate. All I > have to do is work out her Distinctions and Rites. That sounds cool. I guess I'll get back to writing up Belldandy, Urd, and Skuld... ;) - --Dennis dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu xenopathologist at large! Deathwalker for President: for some *real* health care reform. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:53:24 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> [HUMOR] Archangel of Grease (Long) Y'know, this is awfully silly, but it gave me the first real laugh I've had on this list in a long time. Thanks! - -David (are Fallen Angels of Grease called Beauty School Dropouts?) http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/innomine.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 16:20:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Dennis C Hwang Subject: Re: IN> Beth of the Archives On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> Whatever, whatever... But look at my new .sig... > >> --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor Congratulations! Now I have someone else to pester when I'm not badgering Kromm over on the GURPS list... ;) > >So what powers do you have, now? (I got a vague sense from Kromm of > >what a Line Editor does, but...) > > Pen-Penultimate power. Eventually, I get power over the list, > apparently, but I haven't gotten any instructions about that yet. Pen-Penultimate power? Hmm, did someone build an Evangelion unit for a certain warm-water penguin? ;) - --Dennis dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu xenopathologist at large! Deathwalker for President: for some *real* health care reform. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 19:35:50 -0400 From: Aes Sedai Subject: RE: IN> About the four horsemen of the Apocalypse... On Thursday, September 11, 1997 5:40 AM, Andrew Getting wrote: >>> I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard >>> one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!" >>> I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, >>> and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on >>> conquest. >> >>Baal, probably. AKA Conquest. > >So why would he let someone else be War? Mebbe Asmodeus... I don't think so. As Earl Wajenberg correctly stated, the rider of the white horse is frequently interpreted among Christian theologians as the Antichrist (a.k.a. the Beast). This would actually make the rider of the white horse (in game terms) a willing host (not a vessel) for Lucifer himself. This is prophesying a time when Lucifer will be able to deceive the entire world into worshipping him. Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:53:26 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Superior Intervention >>>Analogy. I was making analogies to illustrate my point, not claiming that Belial and Baal -actually- did such things. Why must people be such literalists?<<< You said: "Belial started the London fire of 1666; Baal fire-bombed London in WW2." Of course I realized that you probably didn't *mean* to say that the Demon Princes themselves personally performed those acts, but your wording was imprecise, and didn't suggest an analogy but literal responsibility. And since this just happens to be one of my big gripes with the World of Darkness, and one of the things I *don't* want to see in In Nomine, I used the opportunity to make a point myself. - -David (Demon Prince of Literalism? Hmmm, I think not) http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/innomine.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:19:16 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: IN> Fate vs. Destiny Skills Peter Wrote: "Why does the Fate and Destiny have to be related to different skills. I doubt Hitler would ever have been a good painter, but he could have used his powers of Leadership to bring people together rather than force then apart. This does tie in with my feeling about how Big Destinies and Fates work. Basically a Mortal as a Big Potential, say in the field of Politics, and then the Servitors of Fate and Destiny start working to see if that big value will be positive or negative." Sorry, I should be clearer. IMO, the skill which MAY be raised to a level above 6 must have something to do with the person's Fate or Destiny. It can be the same skill for both or it can be different skills. With a person who would have the same skill for both it is difficult to tell which way their Fate/Destiny will go. For a person (eg. Hitler) it was easier, because that box in the rulebook actually points out what his Fate and Destiny (in the IN universe was). I merely used this example because it had already been suggested by IN, plus it is known that Hitler was a reasonably talented painter in his youth (read that somewhere). Anyway, hope that clears it up a bit. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:35:10 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: IN> Lilim Geas Entrapment Someone wrote (was it Elizabeth? Sorry, I've lost the original thread), >>If it's enough work, I might agree with you. But let's suppose a >>Lilim of Belial does some piddliing Geas/1 favor for Bill Gates. She >>Geases him to write her a check for a billion dollars, a trivial >>amount for BG, and remember that he gets hit hourly if he doesn't do >>it. >> >>Now that she has all that money, she starts burning down the homes >>of people she wants Geases on. Most people don't have the insurance >>or cash to get their homes rebuilt quickly, but she does. IMO, most of the tricks the Lilim in question is trying here would never work, simply because the GM is playing it waaay to easy letting it work. For example, take the burning houses above. Assume 6 people are in the houses, and the Lilim goes and checks their Needs after the fires. This is what I'd give the Lilim if I was GMing: Person 1: I need my antique clock that my grandfather left to me on his deathbed. Pity it's burned away. 2: I Needed that not to have happened. 3: I need the report I spent 6 weeks compiling and is due in at work tomorrow. 4: I need a drink. 5: I need to call the insurance agency. They'll make it alright. 6: I need all my winning lottery ticket that was in there. In these examples the Lilim would probably only be able to help with #4 and #5, and would only get small Geases from these. The point I'm trying to make is that no matter what dirty trick the Lilim tries to force Geases onto people, humans rarely think rationally in a crisis. Of course, if she tries this trick too long, she's going to run into that Malakite of David who has been helping this community for the last 25 years! Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 22:00:02 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Dissonance, Discord, and Falling Stacy Stroud queried; > So it's widely known in Heaven that Malakim literally *can't* Fall? I ... > The rulebook seems to imply that within the IN universe, Malakim don't Fall > because someone (either Dominic's people or their fellow Malakim) > *extinguishes* them before they can so dishonor their Choir. I got the impression it was kind of both...people don't KNOW if Malakim just can't fall, or if it's because they inhume each other if it happens...(It DID seem clear to me that a Malakim *CAN'T* get away with telling a Servitor of DOminic, "Look, we can't fall, so push off," and just keep wracking up Dissonance...yon SoD presumably will say, "Uh-huh. I've got six Malakim here say you're sullying their reputation, too, and a dozen more waiting by your Heart to take care of things when we're done with you down here. Hope you do the Symphony more good in your next incarnation, bozo." If nothing else, a Malakim who's picked up 6 levels of Discord is pretty clearly abusing either his Superior's instructions and/or his Vows pretty badly, and might as WELL have Fallen...) > So it would seem from the written material that *within the game world*, > Malakim certainly don't go around bragging about their immunity to Falling. Nonetheless, I get the strong impression that they certainly DO brag about their immunity to Falling. (Just look at the little story intro to their description...) It's just that not everyone buys it, and fellow Malakim consider a Dissonant Malakim quite bad enough, all told. I'm still going with the, "They can't Fall because they were BUILT on the down side" idea...got a first draft for my Bright Malakim done, but I need to clean it up a little... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 22:15:46 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: Geas Entrapment (Re: IN> Lilith's Potence) > > Oh no. Is SJG gonna do the TSR/White Wolf thing and put out seventy-two > > choir books, and Expanded Servitor foldouts and cetera? > No! No, no, no, no! *Whew!* Let's nip that little rumor > in the bud. Huzzah! (Not that I'd suspected it of SJG, but...huzzah! anyway.) > Superiors will be expanded on as necessary (i.e. the new > info will part of some other product, not 3 dozen individual > superior books). You will not see the Seraph Choirbook or Though, just since it's come up again, I'd like to throw my vote back in for, at least eventually, a pair of compiled Superior Expansion books as well...(It'd be handy, I think, not not have to pull out three books to work out how Nybbas and Saminga are going to work together against Novalis..) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 22:11:52 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Yves: Mechanics Louis Wainwright commented; > Okay, so I have a Sereph of Yves in my game. And yup...it's just > Malakim of Yves: Lets one detect if a Disturbance is Angelic/Demonic and > presumably, by elimination, Human. My solution: Just Say No. This just Humans don't CAUSE Disturbance...(which makes Disturbance an automatic Celestial detector for ANYONE, if you can pin it down to the cause..that's why Celestials have to be real careful about breaking things or using Essence.) Malakim of Yves just don't have to run off every time someone on their side does something, like everyone else.. > Sereph of Yves: Okay, the true name of objects thing is fine. Also the > true name of Humans. But Celestials? I've decided to make it a secret Personally, I don't view this one as BEING all that good a Celestial Detector. It can give some good CLUES, but...all you're getting is their name, which is probably something like "Ezekial" or "Judas" but could also be "Frank" or "Sarah"..and even in the first two cases, while those aren't very common names for humans (certain Amish communities notwithstanding), they're certainly not unheard of... [There IS a good case that Celestials all have some specific name in the Celestial Tongue which this would pick up instead, thereby making it not only an automatic (by touch) Celestial Detector, but probably also differentiate between Angels and Demons, since the Tongues are different...but then, of Demons, you'd only get that their name is in some language you can't speak, since that's a requirement. In ANY case, if you don't want it to work like that, it's easy enough to rule that Celestial names are, indeed, very like human names...] [Regarding Divine Destiny] > Then I cut up the pairs and whenever he scans someone, I just draw one at > random. I like that idea... > However, my problem is the whole Celestial Detection issue again. I firmly > belive that Divine Destiny should not work on Celestials, but how do you > stop it from being a perfect detector? The description does specify `mortal', so I'd say you're relatively clear on that point...as to the problem...that gets trickier. Even the non-Celestials it won't work on (undead, for example), are almost invariably INVOLVED, if not technically Celestials, which doesn't obviate the problem... One suggestion I'd make, just as an Amber GM, is that if your Seraph of Yves is RELYING on this, throw a few Soldiers of Hell around to `case him out'; it WON'T detect them, and their Fates may not be anything all that revealing just because they're Soldiers...(heck, give one a really good Destiny; it'll make for some good roleplaying opportunities, if they follow up with it, giving the party a reason to *NOT* kill a dedicated Soldier actively working against them...when they figure it out anyway.) So you'll have this Seraph feeling perfectly safe in knowing there're no Enemy immediately about, when in fact there are six in earshot and three more over at the concession stand... > Yves' Library: Celestials lives are not recorded. Rather, those're held on the upper levels, where no one directly involved in the Earth-levels of things is allowed...(Y'ever wonder about that? It sounds like even the Superiors are pretty much locked out on that...suspicious, no?) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #337 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.